Monday 19th June 2017

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 19 Jun, 2017 6:29 am

Morning.

Continued from last night.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/liv ... ve-updates" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Mon 19 Jun, 2017 8:40 am

Morning all.

Good to hear Humphrys talking about possible loner/lone wolf. Why break his habit of a lifetime?

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Mon 19 Jun, 2017 9:08 am

A nice illustration of why the Tories and Labour are two dishonest peas in the same pod on Brexit

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/j ... y-10639704" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 19 Jun, 2017 9:14 am

Good-morning, everyone

Post by **adam** » Mon 19 Jun, 2017 9:20 am

StephenDolan wrote:Morning all.

Good to hear Humphrys talking about possible loner/lone wolf. Why break his habit of a lifetime?

Guardian long read - The Myth of the Lone Wolf Terrorist

Yet using the term as liberally as we do is a mistake. Labels frame the way we see the world, and thus influence attitudes and eventually policies. Using the wrong words to describe problems that we need to understand distorts public perceptions, as well as the decisions taken by our leaders. Lazy talk of “lone wolves” obscures the real nature of the threat against us, and makes us all less safe.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 19 Jun, 2017 9:37 am

We have our very own Baruch Goldstein, then. Oh joy.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 19 Jun, 2017 9:49 am

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... tant-dates" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Guidance
Academy conversion: important dates

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 19 Jun, 2017 10:10 am

https://mainlymacro.blogspot.co.uk/2017 ... n-our.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Austerity will only end when our leaders start being honest

Mainlymacro

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Mon 19 Jun, 2017 10:15 am

This is very good indeed

http://speri.dept.shef.ac.uk/2017/06/13 ... ath-ahead/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Mon 19 Jun, 2017 10:32 am

SpinningHugo wrote:This is very good indeed

http://speri.dept.shef.ac.uk/2017/06/13 ... ath-ahead/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Well written but still anchored to the view, which I do understand, that Brexit is a black and white issue

But Brexit is the one issue where triangulation is impossible

I don't believe this need be true, for reasons I have articulated at length on many occasions.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 19 Jun, 2017 10:41 am

Morning all.

It's s areal shame she has to make this clear to people.

Emma Dent Coad‏ @emmadentcoad 13h13 hours ago
More
Emma Dent Coad Retweeted vladcomt Montecristo
Hi ppl I understand frustrations but pls check facts. I was nowhere nr the decision on cladding Grenfell. Not on cttee then, not on Cabinet.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 19 Jun, 2017 10:54 am

Apprenticeship reforms going swimmingly I see...

Apprenticeship vacancy adverts plummet to 0.5 percent of the previous month

http://feweek.co.uk/2017/06/19/breaking ... ous-month/

Latest government figures for apprenticeship vacancies, published this morning, show a dramatic fall for the month of May, when the levy reforms kicked-in.

As few as 10 employers posted around 70 vacancies in May, compared to 2,220 employers and 13,960 vacancies the previous month. That’s a massive fall of 99.5 percent.

Last May there were 17,310 vacancies posted by 3,490 employers (see below).

These figures will be a great concern to those that feared the levy reforms would result in employers switching their provision to only support existing employees.

The King Midas in reverse government...

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Mon 19 Jun, 2017 11:29 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:This is very good indeed

http://speri.dept.shef.ac.uk/2017/06/13 ... ath-ahead/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Well written but still anchored to the view, which I do understand, that Brexit is a black and white issue
But Brexit is the one issue where triangulation is impossible
I don't believe this need be true, for reasons I have articulated at length on many occasions.

Well, unless you can explain to me how ending freedom of movement is compatible with single market membership (or all the benefits of that as Corbyn incomprehensibly wants) I am afraid I think that position is no more honest than that of Gove, Johnson, IDS et al, indeed in some respects worse.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Mon 19 Jun, 2017 11:48 am

Ian Dunt a bit too generous in my view

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2017/06 ... -on-brexit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Mon 19 Jun, 2017 12:32 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:This is very good indeed

http://speri.dept.shef.ac.uk/2017/06/13 ... ath-ahead/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Well written but still anchored to the view, which I do understand, that Brexit is a black and white issue
But Brexit is the one issue where triangulation is impossible
I don't believe this need be true, for reasons I have articulated at length on many occasions.
Well, unless you can explain to me how ending freedom of movement is compatible with single market membership (or all the benefits of that as Corbyn incomprehensibly wants) I am afraid I think that position is no more honest than that of Gove, Johnson, IDS et al, indeed in some respects worse.

The first stage of the negotiations is deciding the financial settlement for us leaving the eu, it doesn't seem to have any leeway for us partially leaving as this would necessitate deciding on relationship first, then calculating a settlement. So if correct we are meant to be i) leaving completely then ii) negotiating future relationship.
So if that happens we are ending freedom of movement & leaving custom union & single market.
We can then (I'm theory) negotiate access to the single market with something not entirely dissimilar to freedom of movement.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 19 Jun, 2017 12:44 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:Ian Dunt a bit too generous in my view

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2017/06 ... -on-brexit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The heading does have a question mark tbf. Though you will doubtless be unsurprised that I think he is on the right lines

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 19 Jun, 2017 12:44 pm

https://www.ft.com/content/e5ea6890-480 ... af43330904" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Silvana Tenreyro appointed to Bank of England’s MPC

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 19 Jun, 2017 1:31 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... re-victims" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Mon 19 Jun, 2017 1:55 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:Ian Dunt a bit too generous in my view

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2017/06 ... -on-brexit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The heading does have a question mark tbf. Though you will doubtless be unsurprised that I think he is on the right lines

Who knows? Labour frontbenchers contradict each other daily, and Corbyn writes pieces that are both internally incoherent and contain information flat falsehoods.

I suppose if you opposed Brexit the mood music from Labour is softer, but it can't but let down a great slice of its vote.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 19 Jun, 2017 1:59 pm

http://www.politics.co.uk/news/2017/06/ ... ek-support" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 19 Jun, 2017 2:06 pm

Ed M did o.k IMHO,especially liked his mention of IDS on next week if you don't like him Jeremy Vine back the week.after.

Anybody watch the May v Johnson thing last night,thought it far too kind to Johnson to the point of some sort of hero betrayed.

seeingclearly · Post by **seeingclearly** » Mon 19 Jun, 2017 2:21 pm

Two excellent quotes from yesterdays posts.

"We haven't been a serious country since 2010."

"The myth is becoming truth."

Just about sums up the lethal Oz-like state we are in.

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Mon 19 Jun, 2017 2:31 pm

HindleA wrote:Ed M did o.k IMHO,especially liked his mention of IDS on next week if you don't like him Jeremy Vine back the week.after.

Anybody watch the May v Johnson thing last night,thought it far too kind to Johnson to the point of some sort of hero betrayed.

Worth watching to see the Tory mps described as a group of “insincere, duplicitous bastards”, though would make them angels compared to the portrayal of
Gavin Williamson.

seeingclearly · Post by **seeingclearly** » Mon 19 Jun, 2017 2:32 pm

I wish I had a quid for every time I have read the word 'triangulation'. I'd have enough to take a bloody expensive long holiday. WTF does it even really mean. Whatever happened to the campaign for plain english or whatever it was called? If Brexit or whatever is to progress in any direction at all, and we are to get a return to normal governance in or out of the EU a heck of a lot of people are going to have to be educated in the realities. All the jargon in the world won't help that on, it is what got us into this fix. Whatever emerges, we need it not to be toxic. So step by step openness, education, and realism should be called for. And alongside it some national reconstruction.

55DegreesNorth · Post by **55DegreesNorth** » Mon 19 Jun, 2017 2:37 pm

Afternoon folks,
Here's something for Hugo.
https://politicsmeanspolitics.com/why-d ... 186e3e7683

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 19 Jun, 2017 3:17 pm

HindleA wrote:http://www.politics.co.uk/news/2017/06/ ... ek-support

UK government doesn't like documenting people.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 19 Jun, 2017 3:23 pm

citizenJA wrote:
HindleA wrote:http://www.politics.co.uk/news/2017/06/ ... ek-support
UK government doesn't like documenting people.

Are EU nationals 'documented' by UK government, for example?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 19 Jun, 2017 3:24 pm

Doesn't mean UK government isn't responsible for them

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 19 Jun, 2017 3:35 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:Ian Dunt a bit too generous in my view

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2017/06 ... -on-brexit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The heading does have a question mark tbf. Though you will doubtless be unsurprised that I think he is on the right lines

Who knows? Labour frontbenchers contradict each other daily, and Corbyn writes pieces that are both internally incoherent and contain information flat falsehoods.

I suppose if you opposed Brexit the mood music from Labour is softer, but it can't but let down a great slice of its vote.

Maybe just as well that the Tories look like hanging on for a couple of years, then.

They will "own" the consequences of Brexit in the same way Labour did the fallout from the 2008 crash.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Mon 19 Jun, 2017 3:37 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Ian Dunt a bit too generous in my view

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2017/06 ... -on-brexit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The heading does have a question mark tbf. Though you will doubtless be unsurprised that I think he is on the right lines

[/quote]

Who knows? Labour frontbenchers contradict each other daily, and Corbyn writes pieces that are both internally incoherent and contain information flat falsehoods.

I suppose if you opposed Brexit the mood music from Labour is softer, but it can't but let down a great slice of its vote.[/quote]

Maybe just as well that the Tories look like hanging on for a couple of years, then.

They will "own" the consequences of Brexit in the same way Labour did the fallout from the 2008 crash.[/quote]

I think that is right. Politically, all turned out well for Labour.

Of course, if what you care about is something other than the health of the party itself, an utter disaster.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Mon 19 Jun, 2017 4:28 pm

55DegreesNorth wrote:Afternoon folks,
Here's something for Hugo.
https://politicsmeanspolitics.com/why-d ... 186e3e7683

Great piece.

The conclusions feel right to me.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Mon 19 Jun, 2017 4:31 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:I think that is right. Politically, all turned out well for Labour.

Of course, if what you care about is something other than the health of the party itself, an utter disaster.

It hurts too much to say that Corbyn may be the one who actually saves us from Brexit doesn't it? [I know he hasn't yet]

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Mon 19 Jun, 2017 4:37 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:I think that is right. Politically, all turned out well for Labour.

Of course, if what you care about is something other than the health of the party itself, an utter disaster.

It hurts too much to say that Corbyn may be the one who actually saves us from Brexit doesn't it? [I know he hasn't yet]

Lol.

Now that really isn't happening.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Mon 19 Jun, 2017 4:38 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:I think that is right. Politically, all turned out well for Labour.

Of course, if what you care about is something other than the health of the party itself, an utter disaster.

It hurts too much to say that Corbyn may be the one who actually saves us from Brexit doesn't it? [I know he hasn't yet]

Lol.

Now that really isn't happening.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Mon 19 Jun, 2017 4:39 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:I think that is right. Politically, all turned out well for Labour.

Of course, if what you care about is something other than the health of the party itself, an utter disaster.

It hurts too much to say that Corbyn may be the one who actually saves us from Brexit doesn't it? [I know he hasn't yet]

Taking the lead from Macron, Osborne, Blair and Clegg will moderately triangulate the way ahead via a new party.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 19 Jun, 2017 4:48 pm

Must be of diacritic relevance,or a non starter.IMHO.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 19 Jun, 2017 4:51 pm

Chew fresh mint and eat chillis.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 19 Jun, 2017 4:54 pm

Put ice cubes on your hot spots.

Titter ye not.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 19 Jun, 2017 5:04 pm

Legislation comes into force regarding payments via Manchester and London emergency funds and disregard

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... de#history" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 19 Jun, 2017 5:07 pm

StephenDolan wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:I think that is right. Politically, all turned out well for Labour.

Of course, if what you care about is something other than the health of the party itself, an utter disaster.

It hurts too much to say that Corbyn may be the one who actually saves us from Brexit doesn't it? [I know he hasn't yet]
Taking the lead from Macron, Osborne, Blair and Clegg will moderately triangulate the way ahead via a new party.

Will believe that when I see it!

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 19 Jun, 2017 5:11 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/law/2017/ju ... oliday-pay" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://unpaidbritain.org/about/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 19 Jun, 2017 5:45 pm

HindleA wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/law/2017/ju ... oliday-pay

https://unpaidbritain.org/about/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The number of individual workers taking employers to tribunal has fallen by 67% since the government introduced fees in 2013.
Even when workers win at tribunal, they may still have to pay the costs of court enforcement orders and bailiffs where employers fail to pay up.

One small part of the article summation
All of it is as awful as what's quoted
21st century UK

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 19 Jun, 2017 6:33 pm

UK appears to capitulate on sequencing on first day of Brexit talks - Politics live

Didn't government get the EU timetable last week regarding this and agree to it at that time? Is this something else?

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 19 Jun, 2017 6:41 pm

Whenever it actually happened, the point is that Davis was talking tough until it did.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 19 Jun, 2017 7:08 pm

[youtube]DjAgrwtql7Q[/youtube]

RIP.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 19 Jun, 2017 8:05 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... lligerence" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 19 Jun, 2017 8:06 pm

HindleA wrote:[youtube]DjAgrwtql7Q[/youtube]

RIP.

Indeed, by all accounts a genuinely lovely man who literally nobody had a bad word for.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Mon 19 Jun, 2017 10:16 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Will believe that when I see it!

Quite. Blairism is dead in the UK. It is Toryism v Bennite left to the death from here on.

If it weren't for radio 3, I wonder why I live in the UK. (Actually I know, I am staying until my children leave for University,)

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 19 Jun, 2017 10:18 pm

Goodnight, everyone
love,
cJA

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 19 Jun, 2017 10:41 pm

[youtube]itd3qzeaIsw[/youtube]