Wednesday 21st June 2017

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 21 Jun, 2017 4:28 am

Morning

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... -in-runoff" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Republicans also won South Carolina 5th but closer than expected.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 21 Jun, 2017 7:53 am

Universal credit rollout in North Kensington halted after tower fire

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... um=twitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 21 Jun, 2017 7:58 am

Apparently "consultation" on social care in Queen's Speech'

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 21 Jun, 2017 7:59 am

Same with "energy cap"

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 21 Jun, 2017 8:00 am

8 Brexit related Bills

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 21 Jun, 2017 8:09 am

Not in full regalia and a car apparently.

55DegreesNorth · Post by **55DegreesNorth** » Wed 21 Jun, 2017 8:14 am

Morning folks,
A German perspective on the state of the UK:
http://www.voxeurop.eu/en/2017/uk-and-brexit-5121166

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 21 Jun, 2017 8:28 am

HindleA wrote:8 Brexit related Bills

Yep looks like Keir Starmer has a busy year ahead!

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 21 Jun, 2017 8:39 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
HindleA wrote:8 Brexit related Bills
Yep looks like Keir Starmer has a busy year ahead!

It'll be like the art 50 debacle I assume. When push comes to shove, they'll vote with the government for fear of being labelled Remainera.

The letter in the graun today from the 50 Labour MPs saying we should be members of, and not just have meaningless access to, the single market is similarly hypocritical.

Some of those clowns (though not all) voted for invoking article 50 without conditions. (Eg the appalling Umunna). All of them fight on a manifesto committing Labour to leaving the single market.laughable fools.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 21 Jun, 2017 9:12 am

Morning all.

Mark Thomas‏ @markthomasinfo 2m2 minutes ago
More
Everyday is a day of rage in the Daily Mail.

Quite.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 21 Jun, 2017 9:15 am

SpinningHugo wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
HindleA wrote:8 Brexit related Bills
Yep looks like Keir Starmer has a busy year ahead!
It'll be like the art 50 debacle I assume. When push comes to shove, they'll vote with the government for fear of being labelled Remained.

The letter in the graun today from the 50 Labour MPs saying we should be members of, and not just meaningless access to, the single market is similarly hypocritical.

Some of those clowns (though not all) voted for invoking article 50 without conditions. (Eg the appalling Umunna). All of them fight on a manifesto committing Labour to leaving the single market.laughable fools.

You find it laughable, reasonable folk call it politics.

Labour have positioned themselves nicely here and in truth you know it. They have a simple test to apply: "Brexit for the many not the few". If they can say hand on heart that the proposal is not in the interests of the many, they can and will I'm sure vote against.

This will be quite a lot of things and I look forward to some forensic work from Starmer.

This is not to say there are no pitfalls for Labour. Freedom of movement will cause some trouble. But listening to Hammond too, it looks MUCH less likely than a few months back that we will leave the Single Market.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 21 Jun, 2017 9:18 am

Morning all.

Couple of things I was ruminating on this morning.

Possibly having another GE so soon must be a potential drain on party finances.

The Tories increase in the CDE vote, is this Brexit led or are they heading towards a parallel with the GOP?

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 21 Jun, 2017 9:22 am

There's an awful lot of Tories talking about today's protest and the fact the police are over-stretched.

These will be the same that would quite like to see even bigger cuts in the public sector...

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Wed 21 Jun, 2017 9:58 am

HindleA wrote:Universal credit rollout in North Kensington halted after tower fire

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... um=twitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A DWP spokesperson said: “The priority is to make sure people affected by the Grenfell Tower fire get the help they need. That’s why we will defer the rollout of the full universal credit service to North Kensington that was due to take place next month

What an admission of failure that is.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 21 Jun, 2017 10:00 am

gilsey wrote:
HindleA wrote:Universal credit rollout in North Kensington halted after tower fire

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... um=twitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A DWP spokesperson said: “The priority is to make sure people affected by the Grenfell Tower fire get the help they need. That’s why we will defer the rollout of the full universal credit service to North Kensington that was due to take place next month
What an admission of failure that is.

Indeed. Why delay it, IDS said that all on UC would be better off.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Wed 21 Jun, 2017 10:06 am

Stewart Wood.

UK politics 2017-19 will be dominated by two trends: the chaos of Brexit paralysing government, & the chaos of government paralysing Brexit.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 21 Jun, 2017 10:06 am

Really good thread on Brexit

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Booo to our political class. Booo to our media. Shame on them all.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 21 Jun, 2017 10:12 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
This will be quite a lot of things and I look forward to some forensic work from Starmer.

This is not to say there are no pitfalls for Labour. Freedom of movement will cause some trouble. But listening to Hammond too, it looks MUCH less likely than a few months back that we will leave the Single Market.

Politically? Yes Labour did very well.

In terms of ensuring we all are not made very much worse off, in particular the poorest?

No, Labour's Brexit position is utterly disgraceful in that regard.

Starmer will just roll over, just like last time. Because Labour's policy is the same as the Tory's.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 21 Jun, 2017 10:17 am

Blessed are the piss takers.

http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/uk_59493 ... 9ed1a6/amp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Wed 21 Jun, 2017 10:28 am

Did we have this? There's a mistake in it re social care in the tory manifesto, but that's a minor quibble. Reactionary/progressive neo-liberals vs. social democracy, and has a go at Toynbee, who I stopped reading yonks ago so I'm glad to see it.
http://www.primeeconomics.org/articles/ ... democracy-" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Universal provision far more than a vote-grabber, it is the only viable and sustainable way to organize a just society

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 21 Jun, 2017 10:33 am

SpinningHugo wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
This will be quite a lot of things and I look forward to some forensic work from Starmer.

This is not to say there are no pitfalls for Labour. Freedom of movement will cause some trouble. But listening to Hammond too, it looks MUCH less likely than a few months back that we will leave the Single Market.
Politically? Yes Labour did very well.

In terms of ensuring we all are not made very much worse off, in particular the poorest?

No, Labour's Brexit position is utterly disgraceful in that regard.

Starmer will just roll over, just like last time. Because Labour's policy is the same as the Tory's.

Which Tory? There are still a few left

Actually Hammond and Corbyn sound quite close on Brexit don't they?

Post by **adam** » Wed 21 Jun, 2017 10:38 am

"The Queen’s speech will include plans for “a publicly-funded advocate to act on behalf of families involved in a Hillsborough-style tragedy”

from the Graun's daily politics.

They could call it 'Legal Aid'.

Post by **adam** » Wed 21 Jun, 2017 11:10 am

Duke of Edinburgh poorly, taken into hospital last night. Something weird happened at the start of News at 10 on the BBC - the news channel had the presenter sitting at the desk just waiting whilst BBC1 had a test screen saying 'we will clear this fault as soon as possible' - I wondered if somebody had died then. Of course it might have bene nothing to do with this...

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 21 Jun, 2017 11:15 am

StephenDolan wrote: The Tories increase in the CDE vote, is this Brexit led or are they heading towards a parallel with the GOP?

First thing, this group includes the vast majority of pensioners. Labour had a big lead with WORKING people in those categories.

Secondly, yes I think Brexit was a significant factor - anybody else remember May's appeal for Labour people to "lend" their votes to her because of it?

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 21 Jun, 2017 11:20 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
This will be quite a lot of things and I look forward to some forensic work from Starmer.

This is not to say there are no pitfalls for Labour. Freedom of movement will cause some trouble. But listening to Hammond too, it looks MUCH less likely than a few months back that we will leave the Single Market.
Politically? Yes Labour did very well.

In terms of ensuring we all are not made very much worse off, in particular the poorest?

No, Labour's Brexit position is utterly disgraceful in that regard.

Starmer will just roll over, just like last time. Because Labour's policy is the same as the Tory's.
Which Tory? There are still a few left

Actually Hammond and Corbyn sound quite close on Brexit don't they?

Corbyn personally wants us out of the EU. Hammond doesn't. For Corbyn, McDonnell, Milne, Murray, Fisher, ad Lansman, the EU is a capitalist ramp preventing the UK from doing all the wonderful state aid things it would like to do.

Maybe on this one issue Corbyn has changed his mind from his voting record over 35 years. His actions before, during and since the referendum don't support that.

Post by **adam** » Wed 21 Jun, 2017 11:31 am

SpinningHugo wrote:
Corbyn personally wants us out of the EU. Hammond doesn't. For Corbyn, McDonnell, Milne, Murray, Fisher, ad Lansman, the EU is a capitalist ramp preventing the UK from doing all the wonderful state aid things it would like to do.

Maybe on this one issue Corbyn has changed his mind from his voting record over 35 years. His actions before, during and since the referendum don't support that.

During the referendum he and McDonnell toured labour constituencies and labour audiences and repeatedly hammered out the message that we needed to vote remain, that the EU was imperfect but leaving would be much much worse. I saw McDonnell, my other half saw McDonnell and Corbyn. Labour voters voted remain at roughly the same percentage as green, lib dem and SNP voters. 'Corbyn lost the referendum' (which you don't say here but it's a path you're going down) is nonsense.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 21 Jun, 2017 11:33 am

Not just that, but "Corbyn DELIBERATELY lost the referendum". For a few people, it really is a modern day version of the Dolchstosslegende.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 21 Jun, 2017 11:41 am

adam wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
Corbyn personally wants us out of the EU. Hammond doesn't. For Corbyn, McDonnell, Milne, Murray, Fisher, ad Lansman, the EU is a capitalist ramp preventing the UK from doing all the wonderful state aid things it would like to do.

Maybe on this one issue Corbyn has changed his mind from his voting record over 35 years. His actions before, during and since the referendum don't support that.
During the referendum he and McDonnell toured labour constituencies and labour audiences and repeatedly hammered out the message that we needed to vote remain, that the EU was imperfect but leaving would be much much worse. I saw McDonnell, my other half saw McDonnell and Corbyn. Labour voters voted remain at roughly the same percentage as green, lib dem and SNP voters. 'Corbyn lost the referendum' (which you don't say here but it's a path you're going down) is nonsense.

#

I didn't say he lost the referendum. It would have been lost regardless. I wasn't even making a complaint about the lacklustre Labour referendum campaign. I'm saying that it is highly unlikely that he has changed his mind about the EU, and there is no real evidence that he has. He behaves as political expediency requires him to.

Post by **adam** » Wed 21 Jun, 2017 11:44 am

I don't think this is terribly likely, but I wonder whether in delaying any formal agreement with the DUP the government are pleased to avoid having to list more nakedly partisan legislation in the Queen's Speech.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 21 Jun, 2017 11:47 am

adam wrote:I don't think this is terribly likely, but I wonder whether in delaying any formal agreement with the DUP the government are pleased to avoid having to list more nakedly partisan legislation in the Queen's Speech.

Though it is claimed May's pipedream to censor the internet is still in there?

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 21 Jun, 2017 11:49 am

No fox-hunting, no new grammar schools? Quick, BBC, get Farage on the blower!

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 21 Jun, 2017 11:52 am

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... ns-for-you" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... fing-notes" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 21 Jun, 2017 11:52 am

So the first winners from GE2017 are foxes and comprehensive schools it seems

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 21 Jun, 2017 11:59 am

Oh and school dinners

Post by **adam** » Wed 21 Jun, 2017 12:01 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Oh and school dinners

Children and small animals.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Wed 21 Jun, 2017 12:08 pm

...and no Trump visit

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Wed 21 Jun, 2017 12:12 pm

Bonnie Greer‏
@Bonn1eGreer

Has HM joined... @EUflagMafia?

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But then. she is well known for dressing very carefully to suit the occasion ....

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 21 Jun, 2017 12:17 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:...and no Trump visit

Has there been an actual announcement on that?

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Wed 21 Jun, 2017 12:17 pm

Hello. Firefighters' initial reaction to Grenfell.

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There is someone on the thread who blames the man with the fridge.

Job done once again by the RW press.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 21 Jun, 2017 12:23 pm

NonOxCol wrote:Hello. Firefighters' initial reaction to Grenfell.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There is someone on the thread who blames the man with the fridge.

Job done once again by the RW press.

Just look at that "someone's" Twitter bio. I don't think they needed much "convincing" by the press quite frankly

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 21 Jun, 2017 12:23 pm

Sad to see but not surprising continued zero recognition that social care is not "the elderly" increasingly obvious intended fundamental pernicious.divisive propagandisation of the "generational theft/fairness theme.One third.of working age for one thing.Any consultation predicated on falsity,burden/cost rather than judicious investment is fundamentally flawed and doesn't bode well.IMHO.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Wed 21 Jun, 2017 12:32 pm

Some interesting reads on this site, which I don't think I've seen before.
http://www.progressivepulse.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
eg

Amid the seeming surprise of the Serious Fraud Office opting to prosecute Barclays Bank personnel (at last) there is one particular aspect that we should try to draw attention to.

The BBC says that Barclays may have ‘given’ the money to Qatar to buy its own shares. If Barclays had the money in the first place there would presumably be no reason to give it to anyone – they already had it!

But Barclays didn’t ‘give’ it, they created it.

What should become crystal clear in the prosecution is that Barclays could create the money only by making a loan.

Barclays didn’t have the money but they could create it as a loan for a willing party – out of thin air.

Indeed Professor Richard Werner has always maintained that this is exactly what happened.

The serious Fraud Office obviously thinks along the same lines. Let us hope the fact that it is a criminal trial does not prevent the public from learning that this system of money creation is going on all the time and creates 97% of money in the economy.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 21 Jun, 2017 12:34 pm

Re Trump-very unlikely,not definitive.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 21 Jun, 2017 12:44 pm

From the G

Like Black Rod, another ancient fixture of our constitution is the Labour MP Dennis Skinner, a republican, who by tradition always makes a joke at this point. This time it’s rather a good one – a reference to the fact the Queen is heading for Royal Ascot later.

Get your skates on. First race is at half past two.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Wed 21 Jun, 2017 12:45 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:...and no Trump visit
Has there been an actual announcement on that?

I'm reading all state visits are announced in the Queens speech, as indeed was the Spanish visit - later this year - in this one.
Not being in has been taken as "not happening" by the pundits I'm reading on twitter.

*edit to help a stray "e" find its way home

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 21 Jun, 2017 12:54 pm

[youtube]zIktNjgbf4s[/youtube]

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 21 Jun, 2017 1:19 pm

Good-afternoon, everyone

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 21 Jun, 2017 1:24 pm

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistic ... in#history" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... nd-ons-may" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 21 Jun, 2017 1:43 pm

Local flats acquired according to the Beeb.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Wed 21 Jun, 2017 1:43 pm

Sixty-eight flats in £2bn luxury block to be given to families whose lives were devastated in Grenfell blaze
EXCLUSIVE: fire-hit residents to be given permanent homes in luxury block

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/s ... 69876.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;