Saturday 1st and Sunday 2nd July 2017

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 01 Jul, 2017 7:21 am

And yet

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/atyourser ... 6.5.3.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Switzerland and Norway are inside the EEA. That is what meant by being a member of the single market. That Parliament page is either badly translated or wrong., That and the customs union, of which they are not members.

North Korea has "access" to the single market.

Good morning all

Sorry for carrying this on from last night but wanted to show how one of the most opinionated and prolific posters continues to write nonsense but never changes their view on anything

Now the EU is wrong about itself

Also, Switzerland are wrong about themselves too because it appears Hugo has stated they are in the EEA when the Swiss people have rejected this in a few referenda over the years

I just want to emphasise why I am posting on this

Hugo continually goes on about Labour using the word 'access' (with his fixation With North Korea). I am just pointing out that countries ouside the EU have their own arrangements leading to access on a continuum with Norway at one end and, I guess, North Korea at the other

The concept of membership in this context is not helpful, is irrelevant and is not defining - what each country will have is negotiated access with a commensurate fee either based on a bespoke bilateral or based on the EEA arrangements

The only countries that are really members in the way that I would see it - ie signed all the treaties, agree to abide by the rules, participate in the decision-making process and have complete access to all aspects are the EU members themselves

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sat 01 Jul, 2017 8:09 am

That link doesn't work for me HSOM1

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 01 Jul, 2017 8:24 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:That link doesn't work for me HSOM1

Hi Paul

Must be that it is embedded in the quote

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/atyourser ... 6.5.3.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I know this argument is tedious but in some cases Hugo is completely wrong (Switzerland in the EEA for example) but I don't think he has ever admitted to being wrong ever - also his response to any question on Labour policy to the EU is this 'North Korea has access' nonsense and I want to strongly challenge him on that

I think the point I want to get over is that the EU works within principles and that they have shown flexibility in the past as long as you wrk within them. What flexibility they will have with the UK is unknown until negotiations start but we know the principles already

The critical one is Free Movement of People but, as someone who is affected by this daily, there are different ways to implement it whilst still being compliant. The problem for the UK is that a lot of the systems they would need to have in place to manage more effectively immigration from the EU are not there and to implement them would require some significant changes to how things are done

Post by **refitman** » Sat 01 Jul, 2017 8:54 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:That link doesn't work for me HSOM1

Fixed the link in the first post.

Morning Paul, morning HSOM, morning Jim-Bob, morning Pa.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 01 Jul, 2017 9:07 am

Morning

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... -kangaroos" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Volvo admits its self-driving cars are confused by kangaroos

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 01 Jul, 2017 9:11 am

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40465399" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

How flammable cladding gets approved

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 01 Jul, 2017 9:39 am

Person responsible for adult social care,for those interested.

https://www.gov.uk/government/people/jackie-doyle-price" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 01 Jul, 2017 10:02 am

Good morfternoon.

Have we had this (from yesterday)? Apologies, if so.

Household income falling at fastest rate since 1976 as UK savings rates crash

Economic growth following the Brexit vote has come to an abrupt halt as consumers raid piggy banks to battle rising inflation and stalled wages

The consumer-driven momentum that has kept the British economy afloat since the Brexit vote is declining rapidly, with new data showing households in the grip of the most protracted squeeze on living standards since the economic crisis of the mid-1970s.

Against a backdrop of rising prices and stagnant wage growth, incomes adjusted for inflation have now fallen for three successive quarters, the first time this has occurred since the International Monetary Fund had to bail Britain out in 1976. (Guardian)

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... p-says-ons

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 01 Jul, 2017 10:09 am

refitman wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:That link doesn't work for me HSOM1
Fixed the link in the first post.

Morning Paul, morning HSOM, morning Jim-Bob, morning Pa.

Good morning sir

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 01 Jul, 2017 10:13 am

No-one is going to change Hugo.
Why bother trying?
I know he's a wind-up merchant - ergo I don't expect anything else and am thus not disappointed.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 01 Jul, 2017 10:14 am

Will be watching the second test,I'm pretending not to be interested,but following via Guardian.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 01 Jul, 2017 10:15 am

Paul, I wish I shared your enthusiasm for discussing how great Europe could be once we've gone. That's not to say I don't want to give it a go, but I'm having trouble summing up enthusiasm. And when I throw something out there there's not much uptake.

Perhaps you could pose some of the questions you're wrestling with. Could throw it to the brain to work on (and get it to leave me alone in the meantime. Win win)

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 01 Jul, 2017 10:16 am

Sent you a PM howsilly

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 01 Jul, 2017 10:17 am

HindleA wrote:Will be watching the second test,I'm pretending not to be interested,but following via Guardian.

Is that a Volvo\kangaroo related test?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 01 Jul, 2017 10:19 am

Ugoh

(I can't help myself)

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 01 Jul, 2017 10:19 am

tinyclanger2 wrote:No-one is going to change Hugo.
Why bother trying?
I know he's a wind-up merchant - ergo I don't expect anything else and am thus not disappointed.

We have had this discussion before haven't we? - I know I shouldn't but I can't help myself

One day I will learn

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Sat 01 Jul, 2017 10:19 am

Disabled woman forced to crawl into assessment building – with no access for disabled

http://www.deadlinenews.co.uk/2017/06/2 ... -disabled/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 01 Jul, 2017 10:21 am

HindleA wrote:Sent you a PM howsilly

Ta for letting me know - not arrived yet but will do what Shaw Taylor used to ask us to do - 'I'll keep'em peeled'

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 01 Jul, 2017 10:25 am

@Toby

How many fucking ways,is that just simply wrong.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 01 Jul, 2017 10:26 am

Well.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 01 Jul, 2017 10:36 am

Rise like Lions..

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sat 01 Jul, 2017 10:39 am

howsillyofme1 wrote: The problem for the UK is that a lot of the systems they would need to have in place to manage more effectively immigration from the EU are not there and to implement them would require some significant changes to how things are done

Indeed.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 01 Jul, 2017 10:39 am

howsillyofme1 wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:No-one is going to change Hugo.
Why bother trying?
I know he's a wind-up merchant - ergo I don't expect anything else and am thus not disappointed.

We have had this discussion before haven't we? - I know I shouldn't but I can't help myself

One day I will learn

It's probably just me. Am feeling a bit Eeyore.
Without the burst balloon and the empty honey jar.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 01 Jul, 2017 10:39 am

About the whole will of the people thing.
And the general human condition.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 01 Jul, 2017 10:43 am

(I literally changed hugo)

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 01 Jul, 2017 10:45 am

Why the bleeding hell do we want to more effectively manage immigration. Why don't we just want to take advantage of freedom to live wherever is appropriate for us on the planet. Why don't we look at the actual issues (technology making humans redundant on a hitherto unprecedented scale and overpopulation of the planet with limited resources where we continually reward people for making more of us because we're worried about our pensions.)
And why oh why do we believe ourselves to be a rational species?

Here endeth the teeth gnashing.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 01 Jul, 2017 10:45 am

Normal service has resumed.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 01 Jul, 2017 10:46 am

You are a card Mr H.
And no mistake.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 01 Jul, 2017 11:06 am

PorFavor wrote:
HindleA wrote:Will be watching the second test,I'm pretending not to be interested,but following via Guardian.

Is that a Volvo\kangaroo related test?

[youtube]A9UtTOYh17w[/youtube]

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 01 Jul, 2017 11:10 am

tinyclanger2 wrote:Why the bleeding hell do we want to more effectively manage immigration. Why don't we just want to take advantage of freedom to live wherever is appropriate for us on the planet. Why don't we look at the actual issues (technology making humans redundant on a hitherto unprecedented scale and overpopulation of the planet with limited resources where we continually reward people for making more of us because we're worried about our pensions.)
And why oh why do we believe ourselves to be a rational species?

Here endeth the teeth gnashing.

Well we could do all that and it has merit to do so but in the end a lot of the population (including us) act 'rationally'

Humans are tribal animals so we always have that to contend with and fear of the 'other' has always been part of our society

Over time that may become less prevalent but it won't happen tomorrow and the people who live within the false constructs we call 'countries' want to have some sort of management of immigration - the question is how can we do that 'fairly'

The EU itself only accepts free movement within its borders, it discriminates against people from outside it so countries like India do not see us as being the paragons of free movement like what we see it as

I

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 01 Jul, 2017 11:10 am

http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/uk_59576 ... mg00000001" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

From 1hr.10

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08wlc6b" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 01 Jul, 2017 11:11 am

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Interesting thread. The replies suggest that however clear Keir Starmer thinks Labour's Brexit policy is, it's far from clear to many Labour supporters.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sat 01 Jul, 2017 11:17 am

howsillyofme1 wrote:
And yet

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/atyourser ... 6.5.3.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Switzerland and Norway are inside the EEA. That is what meant by being a member of the single market. That Parliament page is either badly translated or wrong., That and the customs union, of which they are not members.

North Korea has "access" to the single market.

Good morning all

Sorry for carrying this on from last night but wanted to show how one of the most opinionated and prolific posters continues to write nonsense but never changes their view on anything

Now the EU is wrong about itself

Also, Switzerland are wrong about themselves too because it appears Hugo has stated they are in the EEA when the Swiss people have rejected this in a few referenda over the years

I just want to emphasise why I am posting on this

Hugo continually goes on about Labour using the word 'access' (with his fixation With North Korea). I am just pointing out that countries ouside the EU have their own arrangements leading to access on a continuum with Norway at one end and, I guess, North Korea at the other

The concept of membership in this context is not helpful, is irrelevant and is not defining - what each country will have is negotiated access with a commensurate fee either based on a bespoke bilateral or based on the EEA arrangements

The only countries that are really members in the way that I would see it - ie signed all the treaties, agree to abide by the rules, participate in the decision-making process and have complete access to all aspects are the EU members themselves

I am saying.

1. You were wrong to claim that Norway and Switerland are part of the customs union. They aren't.

2. Being part of the EEA is what everyone means by being members of the single market, which is what Norway and Switerland are. This is completely different from the access of North Korea, or even Canada, who are not within the EEA.

If you'd prefer to talk of "being in the EEA" rather than "being a member of the single market", that is up to you. Wholly idiosyncratic, but your choice.

What I, along with everyone else, mean by the single market is the internal market that is extended to EFTA countries and Switzerland. If you want to deny that exists, you're living in your own peculiar world.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sat 01 Jul, 2017 11:22 am

Right down that thread, you come to this, which is one of my thoughts on the subject which I've not managed to put into words yet.
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 01 Jul, 2017 11:29 am

Willow904 wrote:

Interesting thread. The replies suggest that however clear Keir Starmer thinks Labour's Brexit policy is, it's far from clear to many Labour supporters.

'Many Labour supporters' - you mean some on a twitter feed don't you?

It seemed okay for the people who voted at the election

The only clear policies the party could have at the moment are 'Leave without any negotiation' or 'ignore the referendum and stay in'

Anything else is based on principles for negotiations and what would like to seen, and because of this they can be interpreted in different ways

Until the negotiations start we don't know what the details will be - that is the point to ask the questions of Starmer - until then he will just point you to the principles

If you don't like them and an election comes up and Brexit is the most important thing for you then you can vote Lib Dem or Green if their policies are better - that is your prerogative

I read a comment from someone recently though proposing that membership of the EU for people is just a means to an end. The EU hasn't prevented people being left behind, erosion of rights and generally being treated like shit. The suggestion is that people actually want to see their lives improving and EU membership is incidental to that. If you look into the detail EU membership has been a boon for Britain but maybe they want to see a UK Government that actually wants to start looking out for them and the nuances of 'access' vs 'membership' of the Single Market or the definition of 'fair migration' are too abstract for them

People will probably become interested when the detail is there - I know it is late in the process and not to your personal liking but that seems to be the reality

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 01 Jul, 2017 11:41 am

SpinningHugo wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
And yet

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/atyourser ... 6.5.3.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Switzerland and Norway are inside the EEA. That is what meant by being a member of the single market. That Parliament page is either badly translated or wrong., That and the customs union, of which they are not members.

North Korea has "access" to the single market.

Good morning all

Sorry for carrying this on from last night but wanted to show how one of the most opinionated and prolific posters continues to write nonsense but never changes their view on anything

Now the EU is wrong about itself

Also, Switzerland are wrong about themselves too because it appears Hugo has stated they are in the EEA when the Swiss people have rejected this in a few referenda over the years

I just want to emphasise why I am posting on this

Hugo continually goes on about Labour using the word 'access' (with his fixation With North Korea). I am just pointing out that countries ouside the EU have their own arrangements leading to access on a continuum with Norway at one end and, I guess, North Korea at the other

The concept of membership in this context is not helpful, is irrelevant and is not defining - what each country will have is negotiated access with a commensurate fee either based on a bespoke bilateral or based on the EEA arrangements

The only countries that are really members in the way that I would see it - ie signed all the treaties, agree to abide by the rules, participate in the decision-making process and have complete access to all aspects are the EU members themselves

I am saying.

1. You were wrong to claim that Norway and Switerland are part of the customs union. They aren't.

2. Being part of the EEA is what everyone means by being members of the single market, which is what Norway and Switerland are. This is completely different from the access of North Korea, or even Canada, who are not within the EEA.

If you'd prefer to talk of "being in the EEA" rather than "being a member of the single market", that is up to you. Wholly idiosyncratic, but your choice.

What I, along with everyone else, mean by the single market is the internal market that is extended to EFTA countries and Switzerland. If you want to deny that exists, you're living in your own peculiar world.

1. I have never said they are - what I have said there is often a conflating of the two. I live in one of them so know much better how it works than you do.

2. I will write this in capitals - 'SWITZERLAND IS NOT IN THE EEA'. Why not say membership of the EEA rather than a member of the Single Market then as it is absolutely clear what that means as it is codified?

EU member - complete access to Single Market and all rules and obligations are applicable with participation rule making
EEA member - access to the Single Market to a high level with certain defined derogations and little influence on the rules
EFTA member (Switzerland) - access to parts of the Single Market via bilaterals and a poor governance mechanism
Canada - access to Single Market as defined in the bilateral treaty
North Korea - very, very limited access to the Single Market based on WTO rules....

Single Market access is defined by the membership of certain collective bodies e.g. EU or EEA or via bilaterals

The 'Single Market' is not an organisation so how can you be a member of something that is not an organisation?

The document I linked to from the EU - which you have said is wrong - sets out the reality for EEA and Switzerland

Labour's policy doesn't rule anything in or out - it could mean membership of the EEA or it could mean a bilateral that goes further than the EEA to include the Custom's Union - conditions will not be as favourable even in this super-EEA status as there would be no input into rule making and a large fee would be demanded as part of it, with no rebate.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 01 Jul, 2017 11:46 am

tinyclanger2 wrote:No-one is going to change Hugo.
Why bother trying?
I know he's a wind-up merchant - ergo I don't expect anything else and am thus not disappointed.

Yes, a lot of truth in that. From that starting point, it is still possible to have interesting discussions with them - sometimes

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Sat 01 Jul, 2017 11:54 am

Many years ago, I had a young Year 7 kid, terribly enthusiastic about history, but very stubborn if he had read a ladybird book that it was correct and his teachers were wrong. He had been taught that AD meant after death in primary (I have no idea why) and he persisted with this for the whole year, arguing with me (his Head of Year) and his other history teacher that he was correct, and we were wrong (in spite of the fact that he had never heard of Bede). When it came to the exam and he stubbornly insisted on putting after death to the AD answer it meant he missed the pass by 2 marks and was devastated. At the start of Year 8 in the recap lesson to kick of the new year, he insisted that AD meant after death. Some people never learn...

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sat 01 Jul, 2017 11:55 am

howsillyofme1 wrote:

1. I have never said they are.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1336&start=100#p166620" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Sat 01 Jul, 2017 12:06 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:

1. I have never said they are.
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1336&start=100#p166620" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I can't see HSOM claiming Switzerland or Norway are in the customs union or single market (I do see a number of dubious statements from you, of course) could you point me to the post claiming that? Or is this just another after death moment?

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 01 Jul, 2017 12:08 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:

1. I have never said they are.
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1336&start=100#p166620" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Why do you think that Norway and Switzerland are full members of the Single Market and the Custom's Union?

That was a question based on some of your posts above that was asking you to justify your view that these two countries were 'full members' and I had also the impression that you were implying they are part of the custom's union too when I have mentioned a number of times that these a^two are often seen as one and the same which is clearly wrong

I would apologise for a less than clear question but to be honest you never do and I think I have posted enough times on this matter to make it clear that I do not think they are in the CU - actually living in one of them should be enough to suggest I am aware of that

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 01 Jul, 2017 12:08 pm

Sorry for the long quote - and there's still more to read, if you're so inclined.

Senior cross-party MPs consider holding vote on Murdoch's Sky takeover bid

A group of senior cross-party MPs are exploring ways of holding a parliamentary vote on whether Rupert Murdoch’s 21st Century Fox should be allowed to pursue the takeover of Sky. Sir Vince Cable, the Liberal Democrat leadership candidate, confirmed that there had been informal talks. “There is some thinking on it and I am up for it,” he said. Ed Miliband, the former Labour leader, and Ken Clarke, the veteran Conservative MP, are also thought to be aware of the discussions.

“I am happy to work with Ed and Ken on this,” Cable said. Cable, Miliband and Clarke made a joint submission to Ofcom explaining their opposition to the deal as part of the media regulator’s examination of the takeover.

If a vote were to take place and the result were to show a majority unhappy with the deal, it is likely to be symbolic and not legally binding, but it could be embarrassing for the government and the Murdoch family, who control Fox.

Miliband, who urged Bradley not to do a “grubby deal” with the Murdochs, has written to the boss of Ofcom, Sharon White, to ask for a meeting. The former Labour leader told the Guardian that Ofcom’s report into whether the Murdochs are “fit and proper” owners of Sky was “appallingly weak”.

Miliband said: “The public know that the Murdochs are not fit and proper to 100% own Sky News, and any reasonable regulator would have concluded as such. Ofcom’s failure in this regard suggests anything goes when it comes to corporate failure of broadcasters.” (Guardian)

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/ ... keover-bid

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Sat 01 Jul, 2017 12:08 pm

I do see this question though: 'Why do you think that Norway and Switzerland are full members of the Single Market and the Custom's Union?' We know it's a question because the little squiggle at the end denotes such. Just like AD denotes Anno Domini (In the year of the Lord), but hey ho...

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Sat 01 Jul, 2017 12:09 pm

Thick as mince.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 01 Jul, 2017 12:11 pm

HindleA wrote:Rise like Lions..

Shame much of it was against 14 men, that will be used by some to distract from this historic achievement.

I fear the worst in the "decider", though.......

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 01 Jul, 2017 12:18 pm

gilsey wrote:Right down that thread, you come to this, which is one of my thoughts on the subject which I've not managed to put into words yet.
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I was especially interested in comments from people about wanting a hung Parliament. Some thought it the best result. It certainly fairly reflects the mood in the country at the moment, I think, which is split right down the middle on Brexit and we are paralysed as a consequence. There is no solution that can command a large consensus, no real middle ground, that's the problem. Leave voters mostly want meaningful curbs on immigration, remain voters mostly prefer to prioritise trade and the economy. I see no real way to reconcile both, that's the problem. And that's regardless of in/out of the EU/EEA. Australia has already indicated it will want more emigration rights to the UK in return for good trade terms, for instance. I just see politicians from all sides failing to take responsibility for their sheer negligence in passing the referendum act in such a reckless form, failing to ensure a consensus for such a momentous decision. 'Will of the people' is a figleaf for their extreme ineptitude and I continue to be royally pissed off at the lot of them and especially the ones who have ever thought leaving the EU would be a good idea. Where this is all going is anyone's guess, but nowhere good I suspect. Labour needed to win in 2015, but it was catch-22. Miliband could have won if he'd promised a referendum but if he had we would most likely have ended up here anyway.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 01 Jul, 2017 12:19 pm

Attention Deficit.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 01 Jul, 2017 12:36 pm

Did the people want an EU referendum? I think it was just some Tories.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 01 Jul, 2017 12:37 pm

Good-afternoon, everyone

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 01 Jul, 2017 12:38 pm

Continued pursuance by ONS on a no longer living person to provide information legally required as an employer,perhaps HMRC records not always reliable/accurate/up to date.