Tuesday 18 July 2017

[SpinningHugo]

Morning all

Stephen Bush, the best young political commentator, clear eyed on both the contradictions, and the politics

http://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comme ... 89501.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[PorFavor]

Morning all

Stephen Bush, the best young political commentator, clear eyed on both the contradictions, and the politics

http://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comme ... 89501.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

From the linked article -

The other group in Labour to understand the true scale of Brexit are the party’s shattered pro-Europeans.

Their difficulty is that they don’t have a leader, at least not in Parliament. Chuka Umunna would have struggled to secure the support of all the pro-Remain Blairites if he had run for the leadership for a second time (my emphasis)

Didn't think he'd actually run for the leadership for a first time.

[PorFavor]

Good morfternoon.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Morning all

Stephen Bush, the best young political commentator, clear eyed on both the contradictions, and the politics

http://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comme ... 89501.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

From the linked article -

The other group in Labour to understand the true scale of Brexit are the party’s shattered pro-Europeans.

Their difficulty is that they don’t have a leader, at least not in Parliament. Chuka Umunna would have struggled to secure the support of all the pro-Remain Blairites if he had run for the leadership for a second time (my emphasis)

Didn't think he'd actually run for the leadership for a first time.

well spotted

Didn't he kind of nearly run then change his mind?

Good to see Hugo's favourite new journo is so accurate in his reporting

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Just reading about a Toady article on sexism in advertising.

They chose as an expert Nanette Newman, who said that she didn't know many women who want to be engineers

[PorFavor]

Just reading about a Toady article on sexism in advertising.

They chose as an expert Nanette Newman, who said that she didn't know many women who want to be engineers

Nanette Newman the washing-up liquid woman?

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Just reading about a Toady article on sexism in advertising.

They chose as an expert Nanette Newman, who said that she didn't know many women who want to be engineers

Nanette Newman the washing-up liquid woman?

Indeed.

Perfectly qualified to speak on sexism in advertising

[howsillyofme1]

Just reading about a Toady article on sexism in advertising.

They chose as an expert Nanette Newman, who said that she didn't know many women who want to be engineers

Nanette Newman the washing-up liquid woman?

Indeed.

Perfectly qualified to speak on sexism in advertising

What a frustrating comment

Our last half a dozen engineering recruits have all been women - and all are bloody impressive. All there on merit.

I am not sure though that most people actually understand what an engineer does though - seem to think they are people who are covered in oil and repair bits of metal

[howsillyofme1]

Well I thought that article was a pile of shit personally

[Tonibel]

Nanette Newman is in her eighties anyway. Times might have changed a bit since she was a girl

[PorFavor]

Inflation at 2.6 (down from 2.9).

[PorFavor]

Nanette Newman is in her eighties anyway. Times might have changed a bit since she was a girl

Is she still on the same bottle of washing-up liquid?

[PaulfromYorkshire]

I also dislike the Bush article. it seems he has a blind spot on Labour and Brexit.

I was looking at his oeuvre and realised I had never seen this profile of Corbyn he did for Newsnight just a couple of days before the GE.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's actually very informative and definitely benefits from being watched with hindsight, but listen for the little Brexit jibe at the end.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Switching tack and in the wake of HS2 discussions.

Why is it nobody ever discusses buses?

Our bus system is simply rubbish and compares unfavourably with just about everywhere else I've been. Used daily by millions of people. Important in reducing the impact of car travel. But so rarely debated. I think Ed did go there. Were buses in the Corbyn manifesto?

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Got it!

Across the country we will enable councils to provide first-class bus services by extending the powers to re-regulate local bus services to all areas that want them, and we will support the creation of municipal bus companies that are publicly run for passengers not profit.
Under the Conservatives, bus fares have risen and services have been cut. Labour will introduce regulations to designate and protect routes of critical community value, including those that serve local schools, hospitals and isolated settlements in rural areas.

[PorFavor]

I also dislike the Bush article. it seems he has a blind spot on Labour and Brexit.

I was looking at his oeuvre and realised I had never seen this profile of Corbyn he did for Newsnight just a couple of days before the GE.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's actually very informative and definitely benefits from being watched with hindsight, but listen for the little Brexit jibe at the end.

Thanks - I'd not seen that before.

[howsillyofme1]

Switching tack and in the wake of HS2 discussions.

Why is it nobody ever discusses buses?

Our bus system is simply rubbish and compares unfavourably with just about everywhere else I've been. Used daily by millions of people. Important in reducing the impact of car travel. But so rarely debated. I think Ed did go there. Were buses in the Corbyn manifesto?

I love buses (being a non-driver) but the UK is a poor relation, apart from London. Buses need to be part of an integrated system

There are some good bus stations that allow people to find there way around easily (Huddersfield and Wolverhampton are two examples) but the problem is the lack of integration with the rest of public transport and the massive disparity in levels of service to places where people actually live whilst other routes are over-served

Price is also an issue and the quality of the buses in some areas is truly appalling

There is a view that buses are for the failed (I think Thatcher started this) and that it is an aspiration to have a car to be seen to be a success - I don't know how much difference this makes but it is definitely something I have experienced

The UK has a lot of money spent on public transport but it seems to have lost its role as a public service and is a lot of non-connected different services run by different providers with not enough strategic oversight

[adam]

I also dislike the Bush article. it seems he has a blind spot on Labour and Brexit.

I don't think Labour are in bed with the tories on this at all but I do think they generally have a blind spot on leaving the EU. I was appalled to hear them talking about eating and having cake - they are legitimising the ignorant nonsense that the government claim to be pursuing.

It's all well and good to be open to possibilities as a strategy to keep the electorate on board but I don't see how that can work in negotiation - because the 27 have kept up a very united front so far in developing their position and, as the article effectively says, the way to maintain the benefits of being in the EU is to stay in the EU.

The other problem with maintaining an electorally advantageous but not long term position now is that it's hugely unlikely that there will be an election in the near future. The Con/DUP majority is small but big enough to last and it is the most remote of possibilities that any unhappy conservatives will actually bring the government down in a climate where they would fear for the election result to follow. The DUP might walk on any number of things but again would be very slow to actually vote the government down. We will be out of the EU on the conservative's watch. I've said this before but Labour need to let them get on with it - it makes no difference in parliament at all whether they vote with, against or abstain but it will make a difference in the long term if they end up helping to claim ownership of this catastrophe.

[adam]

(Huddersfield and Wolverhampton are two examples)

A phrase never before uttered in a positive context.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Switching tack and in the wake of HS2 discussions.

Why is it nobody ever discusses buses?

Our bus system is simply rubbish and compares unfavourably with just about everywhere else I've been. Used daily by millions of people. Important in reducing the impact of car travel. But so rarely debated. I think Ed did go there. Were buses in the Corbyn manifesto?

I love buses (being a non-driver) but the UK is a poor relation, apart from London. Buses need to be part of an integrated system

There are some good bus stations that allow people to find there way around easily (Huddersfield and Wolverhampton are two examples) but the problem is the lack of integration with the rest of public transport and the massive disparity in levels of service to places where people actually live whilst other routes are over-served

Price is also an issue and the quality of the buses in some areas is truly appalling

There is a view that buses are for the failed (I think Thatcher started this) and that it is an aspiration to have a car to be seen to be a success - I don't know how much difference this makes but it is definitely something I have experienced

The UK has a lot of money spent on public transport but it seems to have lost its role as a public service and is a lot of non-connected different services run by different providers with not enough strategic oversight

And because of all that, outside London you generally have to pay the driver for your tickets.

This is ludicrous. Most bus journeys round here take twice as long as they would if passengers could just hop on with some kind of Oyster card, which makes them less appealing and less well used by those who have a choice and hugely frustrating for those who completely rely on them.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

(Huddersfield and Wolverhampton are two examples)

A phrase never before uttered in a positive context.

They both used to have top division teams!

And I saw them play each other in that division. A very long time ago!

[adam]

(Huddersfield and Wolverhampton are two examples)

A phrase never before uttered in a positive context.

They both used to have top division teams!

And I saw them play each other in that division. A very long time ago!

It was an 'in the family' kind of a comment - I work in wolvo, have done since 2000, will do for another 15-20 years until retiring.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

I also dislike the Bush article. it seems he has a blind spot on Labour and Brexit.

I don't think Labour are in bed with the tories on this at all but I do think they generally have a blind spot on leaving the EU. I was appalled to hear them talking about eating and having cake - they are legitimising the ignorant nonsense that the government claim to be pursuing.

It's all well and good to be open to possibilities as a strategy to keep the electorate on board but I don't see how that can work in negotiation - because the 27 have kept up a very united front so far in developing their position and, as the article effectively says, the way to maintain the benefits of being in the EU is to stay in the EU.

The other problem with maintaining an electorally advantageous but not long term position now is that it's hugely unlikely that there will be an election in the near future. The Con/DUP majority is small but big enough to last and it is the most remote of possibilities that any unhappy conservatives will actually bring the government down in a climate where they would fear for the election result to follow. The DUP might walk on any number of things but again would be very slow to actually vote the government down. We will be out of the EU on the conservative's watch. I've said this before but Labour need to let them get on with it - it makes no difference in parliament at all whether they vote with, against or abstain but it will make a difference in the long term if they end up helping to claim ownership of this catastrophe.

Did you read Polly Toynbee on this yesterday?

I think she's not far from your position.

But nor am I.

[howsillyofme1]

I agree with Adam that Labour should let the Tories take the brunt of this and try to stay out of it unless they can make a real difference - such as in HoC votes where they can extract some of the Tory Remainers. That latter bunch have been remarkably reticent to back up their rhetoric with actions

I was disappointed (not really appalled though) to hear that phrase being used in the interview but I am just as much frustrated by hearing continually that Labour are 'the same as the Tories' or 'pro Brexit'

Labour has set six tests that need to be met for them to support any Brexit deal. That is the right way to go - look at the desired outcomes rather than being fixated on not yet defined solutions

The best way to protect jobs is probably to stay in the Single Market (although the Single Market is not the great system that it is made out to be - it needs significant reform to make it work for everyone and not just the corporations. I find some of the rhetoric about this great Single Market too much sometimes - it is a means to an end not the end itself)

It is also possible to have a fair immigration system without throwing out Free Movement but to do so requires some reforms in how we do things in the UK - the system of immigration is not perceived to be fair at the moment, some of it perception but some of the exploitation of free movement by employers needs to be addressed. Remember 'fairness' only applies to Europeans - I think other countries/communities may not see it as being fair though

The EU is a means to an end......it has benefits in its own right as an example for demonstrating international cooperation - but essentially it has to demonstrate it has a value for membership. This is why it has to be seen to do so

I believe membership is definitely a benefit is the majority of areas so support membership. Others may not understand that benefit so much and for those who voted Leave they may have/had valid reasons.

I hope that Labour stays true to the tests as that is what is important - not being in the SM or CU per se.....and if they apply those tests correctly then they may well have to go back to the people and say that they can only be delivered by staying in the SM/CU....and that they have a plan to ensure 'fair' immigration within the rules of free movement

If there are other solutions that meet the six tests then they need to be considered as well - I am not sure if there are any but something may come up during the negotiations

[howsillyofme1]

I was brought up a Wulfrunian (Wednesfield for those who know the area - birthplace of Kevin Rowland from Dexys as the only claim to fame) and worked in Hudds for a few years

Proud and like both places, although not perfect - the new Wolverhampton station car park is a clear example of how not to do perfection lol

[PaulfromYorkshire]

A phrase never before uttered in a positive context.

They both used to have top division teams!

And I saw them play each other in that division. A very long time ago!

It was an 'in the family' kind of a comment - I work in wolvo, have done since 2000, will do for another 15-20 years until retiring.

I did remember you had the Wolverhampton connection

[howsillyofme1]

What is the collective name for a group of Wulfrunians

A Yam Yam of Wulfrunians perhaps?

[SpinningHugo]

Test two of Labour's six tests

2. Does it deliver the exact same benefits as we currently have as members of the Single Market and Customs Union?

That does indeed sum up Labour's entire approach to Brexit.

Some will be impressed by that. Others not.

[adam]

What is the collective name for a group of Wulfrunians

A Yam Yam of Wulfrunians perhaps?

That sounds deeper into the Black Country, I think it should be a Pack.

I work in a school just by the hospital and Wednesfield is about a third of our 'catchment' (if we had such a thing).

[howsillyofme1]

What is the collective name for a group of Wulfrunians

A Yam Yam of Wulfrunians perhaps?

That sounds deeper into the Black Country, I think it should be a Pack.

I work in a school just by the hospital and Wednesfield is about a third of our 'catchment' (if we had such a thing).

School by New Cross? Hmmm...not many to choose from.....in fact the one my niece has just finished at

Wednesfield is proper Black Country - the rest of Wolverhampton is dubious.......

[howsillyofme1]

Test two of Labour's six tests

2. Does it deliver the exact same benefits as we currently have as members of the Single Market and Customs Union?

That does indeed sum up Labour's entire approach to Brexit.

Some will be impressed by that. Others not.

Who needs to be impressed?

If the only solution (which it is likely to be) is to stay in and be subject to 4 freedoms then that is what they will be expected to say at the appropriate time

The negotiations have not started yet so we should wait until it is absolutely clear that is the case before committing.

The political risks of actually supporting an EEA plus (the EEA agreement does not include the CU) are not insignificant and timing is everything

[citizenJA]

On Monday, David Cameron urged the Tories not to “slip backwards” and to offer a more inspiring vision for the country. The former prime minister told the London Evening Standard, which is now edited by his former righthand man George Osborne: “The Conservative party only succeeds if it is a party of the future … I want us to go on being the open, liberal, tolerant party that we became post-2005, because I think that was part of our success.”

- Rudd tells Tory MPs to get on with jobs amid infighting over May
Home secretary insists cabinet is working well amid reports of feuding and letter of no confidence in PM

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... g-over-may" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Cameron dances a jig and whistles tomorrow belongs to me

[AnatolyKasparov]

Morning all

Stephen Bush, the best young political commentator, clear eyed on both the contradictions, and the politics

http://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comme ... 89501.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

From the linked article -

The other group in Labour to understand the true scale of Brexit are the party’s shattered pro-Europeans.

Their difficulty is that they don’t have a leader, at least not in Parliament. Chuka Umunna would have struggled to secure the support of all the pro-Remain Blairites if he had run for the leadership for a second time (my emphasis)

Didn't think he'd actually run for the leadership for a first time.

well spotted

Didn't he kind of nearly run then change his mind?

Good to see Hugo's favourite new journo is so accurate in his reporting

Well he was a officially declared candidate - for a literal handful of days. So strictly speaking Bush is correct.

And this is one thing I can readily agree with SH on tbh - he's pretty good and one of the very few reasons to look at the Staggers nowadays.

[citizenJA]

Good-morning, everyone

[howsillyofme1]

And this is one thing I can readily agree with SH on tbh - he's pretty good and one of the very few reasons to look at the Staggers nowadays

Some of his articles are pretty good to be fair - just thought this wasn't one of them to say the least

[AnatolyKasparov]

Abi Wilkinson has a brilliant piece in Prospect on the "weaponising" of sexism/abuse by centrists and how it is used to de-legitimise left wing women. A must read.

[SpinningHugo]

Abi Wilkinson has a brilliant piece in Prospect on the "weaponising" of sexism/abuse by centrists and how it is used to de-legitimise left wing women. A must read.

Amusing that the evil centrists are accused of "weaponising" abuse.

But not the actual abuse.

Those evil cunning moderates, with their slippery tolerance and ability to see two sides to an argument.

[I don't want to downplay the abuse Abi W gets, which I am sure is pretty remorseless and unpleasant.]

[howsillyofme1]

Abi Wilkinson has a brilliant piece in Prospect on the "weaponising" of sexism/abuse by centrists and how it is used to de-legitimise left wing women. A must read.

Amusing that the evil centrists are accused of "weaponising" abuse.

But not the actual abuse.

Those evil cunning moderates, with their slippery tolerance and ability to see two sides to an argument.

[I don't want to downplay the abuse Abi W gets, which I am sure is pretty remorseless and unpleasant.]

The assumption is that self-proclaimed 'moderates' actually meet the dictionary definition of the word

I am sure the people on here who have called me a 'cultist', invited me to drink 'cool aid' and anti-semitic would also consider themselves 'moderates'. Calling people 'dim' and 'stupid' is probably also abuse

Abuse and insult have and always will be around - some of it is really vile and needs to be stamped out, other ignored.

There have been some convictions recently for abuse of politicians - most have come from the fascistic right - these are the real experts on every type of -ist abuse you can imagine

Is calling someone a 'Red Tory' abuse to the same extent?

Who were the most abused politicians in the mainstream media over the election?

[HindleA]

Calling me a Tory would be a criminal offence under my benign dictatorship.

[AnatolyKasparov]

Corbyn and his supporters have recieved little but the crudest abuse for two whole years now. Very little "sensible centrist" pearl clutching over this has been observable.

Wilkinson is absolutely correct - the current furore is a deliberate and calculated attempt to shut down and circumscribe political debate, and remove the accountability of "centrists" for their positions and actions. Genuine abuse has always been disapproved of by Corbyn and the great majority of his supporters.

[SpinningHugo]

Abi Wilkinson has a brilliant piece in Prospect on the "weaponising" of sexism/abuse by centrists and how it is used to de-legitimise left wing women. A must read.

Amusing that the evil centrists are accused of "weaponising" abuse.

But not the actual abuse.

Those evil cunning moderates, with their slippery tolerance and ability to see two sides to an argument.

[I don't want to downplay the abuse Abi W gets, which I am sure is pretty remorseless and unpleasant.]

The assumption is that self-proclaimed 'moderates' actually meet the dictionary definition of the word

I am sure the people on here who have called me a 'cultist', invited me to drink 'cool aid' and anti-semitic would also consider themselves 'moderates'. Calling people 'dim' and 'stupid' is probably also abuse

Abuse and insult have and always will be around - some of it is really vile and needs to be stamped out, other ignored.

There have been some convictions recently for abuse of politicians - most have come from the fascistic right - these are the real experts on every type of -ist abuse you can imagine

Is calling someone a 'Red Tory' abuse to the same extent?

Who were the most abused politicians in the mainstream media over the election?

Quite difficult to say that someone, like Burgon, isn't intelligent in a way that isn't abusive. Something like that, which is true, should be expressed, but because it is derogatory can't be sugared. Dim is mild, I think.

Of course what we really mean by abuse is personal abuse to cause upset ie telling someone on here "you're stupid". I doubt Burgon frequents these pages and so is blissfully unaware of my judgement (but not that of others in the profession, which must be hard for him.)

As I've said before, on here someone saying another poster is a twat, to take a recent example, is far more damaging to the poster responsible. Especially when they then list off imagined slights to justify themselves.

[HindleA]

Re buses,certainly my nephew went into a mix of panic/confusion are you poor thing when younger on our use of them.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Amusing that the evil centrists are accused of "weaponising" abuse.

But not the actual abuse.

Those evil cunning moderates, with their slippery tolerance and ability to see two sides to an argument.

[I don't want to downplay the abuse Abi W gets, which I am sure is pretty remorseless and unpleasant.]

The assumption is that self-proclaimed 'moderates' actually meet the dictionary definition of the word

I am sure the people on here who have called me a 'cultist', invited me to drink 'cool aid' and anti-semitic would also consider themselves 'moderates'. Calling people 'dim' and 'stupid' is probably also abuse

Abuse and insult have and always will be around - some of it is really vile and needs to be stamped out, other ignored.

There have been some convictions recently for abuse of politicians - most have come from the fascistic right - these are the real experts on every type of -ist abuse you can imagine

Is calling someone a 'Red Tory' abuse to the same extent?

Who were the most abused politicians in the mainstream media over the election?

Quite difficult to say that someone, like Burgon, isn't intelligent in a way that isn't abusive. Something like that, which is true, should be expressed, but because it is derogatory can't be sugared. Dim is mild, I think.

Of course what we really mean by abuse is personal abuse to cause upset ie telling someone on here "you're stupid". I doubt Burgon frequents these pages and so is blissfully unaware of my judgement (but not that of others in the profession, which must be hard for him.)

As I've said before, on here someone saying another poster is a twat, to take a recent example, is far more damaging to the poster responsible. Especially when they then list off imagined slights to justify themselves.

As my kids understand very well, there's a big difference between saying "that was a pretty dim thing to say/do" vs. "you are dim".

[AnatolyKasparov]

Was the news that Liam Byrne is joining the Labour front bench mentioned here yesterday?

An interesting development - he undoubtedly has something of the Vicar of Bray about him, but his new position (digital development) is one he has a long standing interest in.

Could work well.

[howsillyofme1]

No Hugo

I think you are a bit of a twat you 'personally successful' individual you - I admit it is a bit abusive but it is what I think based on the following definition and was based on that particular smug post

'The word twat is widely used as a derogatory epithet, especially in British English, referring to a person considered obnoxious or stupid.'

It is not particularly grown up but hey ho!

In the spirit of reducing on-line abuse, though, I shall refrain in future and just concentrate on your posts

[SpinningHugo]

Was the news that Liam Byrne is joining the Labour front bench mentioned here yesterday?

An interesting development - he undoubtedly has something of the Vicar of Bray about him, but his new position (digital development) is one he has a long standing interest in.

Could work well.

Poor sod. Chief Secretary to the Treasury 8 years ago, and now a minor role as a shadow under Tom Watson.

He surely has better things to do with his life. He must see he has no future in Labour as it now is.

I see he was once Minister for the West Midlands. What happened to that? Didn't there used to be a minster for Portsmouth?

[howsillyofme1]

Was the news that Liam Byrne is joining the Labour front bench mentioned here yesterday?

An interesting development - he undoubtedly has something of the Vicar of Bray about him, but his new position (digital development) is one he has a long standing interest in.

Could work well.

Poor sod. Chief Secretary to the Treasury 8 years ago, and now a minor role as a shadow under Tom Watson.

He surely has better things to do with his life. He must see he has no future in Labour as it now is.

I see he was once Minister for the West Midlands. What happened to that? Didn't there used to be a minster for Portsmouth?

So being an MP and representing the people is not sufficient on its own?

Perhaps he could go and whore himself to Middle East dictators or go an take up a few directorships in the City - much better 'things to do with his life' I suppose

Isn't it worthy of some respect that he has held on and stayed with it - even if I am not a fan of his politics?

Says a lot about your values

[SpinningHugo]

As my kids understand very well, there's a big difference between saying "that was a pretty dim thing to say/do" vs. "you are dim".

I am sure your kids do grasp that.

[howsillyofme1]

As my kids understand very well, there's a big difference between saying "that was a pretty dim thing to say/do" vs. "you are dim".

I am sure your kids do grasp that.

the question is - do you? and do you understand the point he is making?

[SpinningHugo]

As my kids understand very well, there's a big difference between saying "that was a pretty dim thing to say/do" vs. "you are dim".

I am sure your kids do grasp that.

the question is - do you? and do you understand the point he is making?

Oh, I am pretty sure *I* do, yes.