Saturday 22nd July & Sunday 23rd July 2017

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 7:28 pm

HindleA wrote:Liam Fox demands meeting with BBC over 'negative' Brexit stories

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... are_btn_tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I guess they haven' got Robbie Gibb to phone up now...

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 7:28 pm

HindleA wrote:Liam Fox demands meeting with BBC over 'negative' Brexit stories

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... are_btn_tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Despite "Brexit"" needn't necessarily be anti-"Brexit". Liam Fox is being over-sensitive and seeing slights where there may not be any. Why would that be, I wonder?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 7:38 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... -elephants" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sri Lankan navy rescues two elephants washed out to sea

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 7:45 pm

No at least they had trunks jokes etc.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 7:45 pm

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/robin-l ... 49138.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
When the UK’s former ambassador to the EU, Sir Ivan Rogers, resigned last January, complaining that ‘serious multilateral negotiating experience is in short supply in Whitehall’, I translated his parting remarks as meaning ‘We’re up the creek without a paddle.’

Six months later, we seem to be even further up the creek — and still without a paddle. It’ll soon be time to grab hold of the life jackets.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 7:50 pm

http://www.politico.eu/article/9-ways-b ... on-brexit/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
A Brexit reversal still looks unlikely — but not impossible.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 7:52 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... -found-one" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

While Hammond looks for a magic money tree, Labour has found one
Larry Elliott

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 7:53 pm

http://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/culture ... -1-5118462" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Spike Milligan’s Puckoon: The slapstick classic that captures the absurdities of Brexit

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 7:55 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:OK. Let's get to basics.
1. What is the EU?
Great question. A group of states that decide to share some aspects of sovereignty to the mutual benefit of all. But perhaps more than that? A political project to achieve hegemony for a European way of thinking?

2. What's good about its intentions?
A desire to share the best of European cultures and cap the worst.

3. What's bad about how it's working out?
I think the democratic structures are, de facto, dreadfully flawed. Not in the way one might at first think, but because the way things work, national leaders can happily take credit for everything positive the EU does, while blaming the EU for anything negative. There needs to be a clearer link between the voter and EU policy, though I'm not sure how to achieve that.
Economically, the single market is too Thatcherite. There isn't enough in the way of redistribution to support social justice across the continent. Freedom of movement is not a freedom if you don't want to move but have to to get a job.

4. What's good about how it's working out?
I think around science, research, higher education (things which I know a thing or two about) the EU has been fabulous and a strong positive example to the world.

5. What might realistically be improved?
As above. Democracy and social justice. Less untrammelled capitalism.

6. What other/better options are there in principle (for the world)?

My son's just sent me for a curry

Bye!

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 7:55 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -unsettled" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Guardian view on Brexit and farming: outlook unsettled
Editorial

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 7:59 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:OK. Let's get to basics.
1. What is the EU?
Great question. A group of states that decide to share some aspects of sovereignty to the mutual benefit of all. But perhaps more than that? A political project to achieve hegemony for a European way of thinking?

2. What's good about its intentions?
A desire to share the best of European cultures and cap the worst.

3. What's bad about how it's working out?
I think the democratic structures are, de facto, dreadfully flawed. Not in the way one might at first think, but because the way things work, national leaders can happily take credit for everything positive the EU does, while blaming the EU for anything negative. There needs to be a clearer link between the voter and EU policy, though I'm not sure how to achieve that.
Economically, the single market is too Thatcherite. There isn't enough in the way of redistribution to support social justice across the continent. Freedom of movement is not a freedom if you don't want to move but have to to get a job.

4. What's good about how it's working out?
I think around science, research, higher education (things which I know a thing or two about) the EU has been fabulous and a strong positive example to the world.

5. What might realistically be improved?
As above. Democracy and social justice. Less untrammelled capitalism.

6. What other/better options are there in principle (for the world)?
My son's just sent me for a curry

Bye!

Excellent.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 8:04 pm

Thanks Paul - on number one:

tinyclanger2 wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:OK. Let's get to basics.
1. What is the EU?
Great question. A group of states that decide to share some aspects of sovereignty to the mutual benefit of all. But perhaps more than that? A political project to achieve hegemony for a European way of thinking?
.

https://europa.eu/european-union/about- ... n-brief_en" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The EU was created in the aftermath of the Second World War. The first steps were to foster economic cooperation: the idea being that countries that trade with one another become economically interdependent and so more likely to avoid conflict.
...
What began as a purely economic union has evolved into an organization spanning policy areas, from climate, environment and health to external relations and security, justice and migration. A name change from the European Economic Community (EEC) to the European Union (EU) in 1993 reflected this.

I think there are similiarities here with academia and the efforts of scholarly societies - "post-war" (plus a decade or two) to promote movement of academics across Europe to share ideas and technologies and establish collaboration.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 8:23 pm

PorFavor wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:One thing driving down wages is the fact that everyone wants everything to be free or cheap (regardless of actual affordability).
Vicious circle.
Yes. And such a lot of waste often arises from it, too.

Edited to add -

I often think about how much more I'd be prepared to pay for things if price rises came with a guarantee that the extra charge went to the producers (rather than big business owners, CEOs and the like).

Edited to make sense (ish)

It makes all kinds of sense. I think about too.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 8:44 pm

The EU is also governed by the principle of representative democracy, with citizens directly represented at Union level in the European Parliament and Member States represented in the European Council and the Council of the EU.

...

In 2012, the EU was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize for advancing the causes of peace, reconciliation, democracy and human rights in Europe.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 8:47 pm

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/politicians ... xit-means/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
So much pain, so little gain. Where is the morality in pursuing a stupid, senseless and self-harming course of action when corrosive to national interests? Privately, many MPs believe this will damage the country. Perhaps they could show some bottle when returning after the recess by working out how to derail the whole daft process? After all, it was Brexit minister David Davis who said, when debating the EU, that: “If a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy.” Our politicians should ponder this carefully while aestivating on their sun loungers.

Yes - this is where I'm stuck.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 8:50 pm

Unless it isn't self-harming in which case I want to see the evidence. May's repeated baseless declarations do little for my confidence in her claims.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 8:53 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:Thanks Paul - on number one:

tinyclanger2 wrote:

https://europa.eu/european-union/about- ... n-brief_en" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The EU was created in the aftermath of the Second World War. The first steps were to foster economic cooperation: the idea being that countries that trade with one another become economically interdependent and so more likely to avoid conflict.
...
What began as a purely economic union has evolved into an organization spanning policy areas, from climate, environment and health to external relations and security, justice and migration. A name change from the European Economic Community (EEC) to the European Union (EU) in 1993 reflected this.
I think there are similiarities here with academia and the efforts of scholarly societies - "post-war" (plus a decade or two) to promote movement of academics across Europe to share ideas and technologies and establish collaboration.

Yes. My question is when does a desire for peace stop and when does a new, collaborative quest for hegemony begin?

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 8:54 pm

some very thoughtful posts on the EU this evening...thanks for tc2 for provoking with a good set of questions

Pity our politicians have not shown the same maturity over the last twenty years or so

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 9:06 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... are_btn_tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

How fans were betrayed as Premier League club owners made fortunes
David Conn

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 9:13 pm

PfY wrote:Yes. My question is when does a desire for peace stop and when does a new, collaborative quest for hegemony begin?

Do you mean hegemony of the EU over its Member States, and/or hegemony of Europe over not-Europe?

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 9:16 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:
PfY wrote:Yes. My question is when does a desire for peace stop and when does a new, collaborative quest for hegemony begin?
Do you mean hegemony of the EU over its Member States, and/or hegemony of Europe over not-Europe?

Over not-Europe is what I meant.

I think part of the EU ambition has been to create a wealthy, populous bloc to rival the US (and more recently China), which is fine in one sense but could go wrong I guess.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 9:23 pm

Poor by Corbyn today.

We've got data on wages and EU immigration. We don't need policy by anecdote about big groups of workers being "imported wholesale". How typical is that situation of EU immigration? They'll surely know the going rate, cost of living, what sort of work is available. Why are they going to be sat at home in Bulgaria until some agency calls them and offers crap wages? Freedom of Movement means they don't need to do that, it's one of the great things about it.

What Corbyn seems to be talking about there is gangmasters and non-EU labour. What's that got to do with the EU?

This is the justification for leaving the Single Market/EEA? That's ridiculous.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 9:30 pm

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 9:38 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... -rand-paul" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Latest Republican health bill 'a porkfest, a monstrosity', Rand Paul says
Kentucky senator says he will not vote for bill to proceed to debate this week

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... hcare-bill" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 9:40 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... reelancers" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

How Brexit might affect the UK's young tech industry freelancers

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 9:46 pm

Some very sensible ideas on tax here

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... our-voters" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But they're still stuffed.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 9:49 pm

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

why-im-a-remainer-who-accepts-the-eu-referendum-result

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 9:50 pm

HindleA wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... -rand-paul

Latest Republican health bill 'a porkfest, a monstrosity', Rand Paul says
Kentucky senator says he will not vote for bill to proceed to debate this week

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... hcare-bill" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tell base it's not free market enough, vote against. Poor whites in Kentucky keep their Obamacare.

He's a cunning one.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 9:52 pm

http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/no ... le-8927493" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This was the health advice handed out to Brummies in 1897

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 9:56 pm

Third, the referendum result is illegitimate because of the lies of the Leave campaign. Yes, the official Leave campaigns were full of lies, from impending Turkish membership of the EU to £350 million extra money a week for the NHS to just blatant xenophobic hatred. Unfortunately there are many elections — let alone referendums — across the world (let alone this country) which are full of lies. And quite frankly if Remain would have prevailed, Brexiteers would now be claiming the exact same thing: from George Osborne’s threats of a punishment Budget (which never transpired) to threats to peace in Europe to wilder warnings of economic armageddon.

Caricature alert. Doesn't he get that Putin supports Brexit, or why?

I knocked on I don’t know how many doors across the country in this election, and Brexit barely even featured. It is just not a priority for the majority of people.

"Pubs and clubs" etc. Let's see where we are in a few months.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 9:58 pm

Repeatedly voting for penalising the sick/disabled/carers in a variety of ways could be portrayed as strikingly similar to cultish behaviour.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 10:00 pm

the debate now has to be what Brexit we should have — rather than whether we should have Brexit at all.

OK, let's go. Right, done it. All the possible Brexits are bad. So let's not do it.

If only Labour were engaged in a debate. It's Hard Brexit or Hard Brexit.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 10:09 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
the debate now has to be what Brexit we should have — rather than whether we should have Brexit at all.
OK, let's go. Right, done it. All the possible Brexits are bad. So let's not do it.

If only Labour were engaged in a debate. It's Hard Brexit or Hard Brexit.

It's not it's respect the referendum or respect the referendum

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 10:11 pm

So Hugo loves the LD now does he - his flirtation with the Greens is over I assume!

Is this the same Vince Cable who supported the Conservatives from 2010-2015, following them into the lobby at every opportunity - but now pretends to be left wing in order to try and get some Labour votes - good luck with that mate!

Corbyn has been pretty consistent on this Single Market question - he has always said that the Single Market access and EU membership are linked together - something I agree with him on.

The IFS wrote a document on this and after spending a paragraph redefining 'access' and 'membership' of the SM then spent a lot of time contradicting themselves when trying to explain why the EEA and Switzerland should be considered as members when they actually weren't in a lot of case - never mind the inconsistency of supposedly being in the SM but not in the CU (which seems a bit of a strange thing to me), they then said that Switzerland only had an FTA with the EU based on the bilateral and that the EEA actually didn't have full access (and yes they use that word) as is generally assumed. Passporting for example does not make up part of the EEA agreement at the moment

They also focus on the financial services sector, which is clearly a very important sector, as being the really important services component and the main reason why the SM is so important. Unfortunately, the financial services sector have behaved so contemptuously over the last 20 years that I don't think continually using them as an example of why we should stay int he SM helps very much

The financial services sector, when you look at the figures, is key to the short-medium term financial well-being of the country but this should not have been allowed to have been so unbalanced and the does not seem not to have any idea how unpopular they have become since 2008

The continued payment of huge bonuses and the threats 'to leave the country' if asked to curb their behaviour, act more responsibly or pay a bit more tax has meant they only have themselves to blame for not being listened to now

They now find that the Tories, the party they have funded for decades, has decided to fall back to the Age of Empires and are in a bit of a quandary about what to do about it

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 10:11 pm

Tubby it's as Owen Jones says, I understand that you disagree, but surely you can see that respecting a referendum outcome is a reasonable position.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 10:17 pm

Let us not do Brexit!

Okay, so how do you propose to bring that about then?

If we had listened to you before the election the likelihood is that Labour would have been wiped out in those 'Leave' seats in the North and Midlands. Particularly as you would have run on a Tory-lite manifesto like previous elections with such electoral success such as Cooper, Smith and Umunna at the fore!

In that case we would have had May going for her 'Brexit is Brexit' and lord knows what would have happened

Perhaps if you and your wing of the party had actually realised that Corbyn was electable then we may have had a Labour Government now and we could see what the situation was, rather than scanning every word an opposition leader trying to walk a tightrope in case of a sudden new election.

Labour has six tests that lead to the logical conclusion that staying in the EU is the best option - do you expect them to say that explicitly now? Worked well for the LD didn't it?

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 10:22 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Tubby it's as Owen Jones says, I understand that you disagree, but surely you can see that respecting a referendum outcome is a reasonable position.

I am not sure he does Paul....I have seen no indication of it

The only major party that didn't support the Referendum Bill were the SNP, and Miliband explicitly ruled out a referendum on the EU before the 2015 election. Labour should have done more to amend and battle but hindsight is a wonderful thing

Of course, this man was insufferably left-wing and had no chance of winning so those in Progress (does that still exist by the way after they have been dropped by Sainsbury? - says a lot about their funding if it is so dependent on one person, very democratic!) told us......

Sky'sGoneOut · Post by **Sky'sGoneOut** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 10:32 pm

I see Corbyn has come out and made it clear why I can never vote for Labour again under him.

He's come out with the same shit as the Tory Brexiteers. "Being in the Single market means being in the EU".

Erm no Jeremy, it really fucking doesn't.

I voted Labour because amongst other reasons I thought they may offer some sane alternative to what the Tories were offering in regards to Brexit. But no, we're getting the same deluded nonsense from Corbyn as we're getting from Tory backbenchers.

It's all very well spouting off on the stage at Glastonbury soaking up the adulation but how do you think your youth vote is going to feel when they realise you've sold them out for the puposes of political gain?

I never expected Corbyn to suddenly transform into an ardent remainer but for fuck's sake, something like 80% of those who support him want despereately to stay in the single market and to stay in Europe. Ok that may be a pipe dream now but he could at least acknowledge that and properly explain why he's going against their wishes.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 10:36 pm

The EU is a great idea and it has helped to promote co-operation between the Western European powers that used to solve arguments by bloodshed

The concept of EU citizenship is fantastic and the movement from one country to enough, and the opportunities brought about by exchange between the countries has led to a thriving European citizen culture.

Unfortunately, this is not so visible to people who live outside the big cities and who rarely go abroad.......people in Wolverhampton tend to see Polish workers coming to the town (always been a big Polish community there since the war) and, as they see it, taking their jobs

The holidays to Europe are there because of many of the EU agreements (open skies, reciprocal health care, free movement etc) but these are not obvious, especially as the British have to still cross borders and show passports

As I live in the Schengen zone, although outside the EU and CU strangely, it is more apparent when you cross borders without showing a passport - it is easy not to notice when you cross from one country to another.

The EU is more than the Single Market and the Customs Union ands actually, the only way I can see them all working to proper effect is if there is even closer integration and the prevention of countries competing on tax etc

My own personal view is that the thing that makes me feel really European is that I can cross borders freely without having to show passports as part of the Schengen zone - that is how the EU manifests itself to me most visibly. Abstract macroeconomics doesn't speak in the same way to most people, remember the people who voted Tory because the UK was about to go bankrupt and had 'maxed out the credit card' in 2010.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 10:42 pm

Sky'sGoneOut wrote:I see Corbyn has come out and made it clear why I can never vote for Labour again under him.

He's come out with the same shit as the Tory Brexiteers. "Being in the Single market means being in the EU".

Erm no Jeremy, it really fucking doesn't.

I voted Labour because amongst other reasons I thought they may offer some sane alternative to what the Tories were offering in regards to Brexit. But no, we're getting the same deluded nonsense from Corbyn as we're getting from Tory backbenchers.

It's all very well spouting off on the stage at Glastonbury soaking up the adulation but how do you think your youth vote is going to feel when they realise you've sold them out for the puposes of political gain?

I never expected Corbyn to suddenly transform into an ardent remainer but for fuck's sake, something like 80% of those who support him want despereately to stay in the single market and to stay in Europe. Ok that may be a pipe dream now but he could at least acknowledge that and properly explain why he's going against their wishes.

I think you are wrong....can I call you deluded to?

I am pretty clear that EU membership is the only way that you can be said to have unfettered access to the SM....everything else comes with restrictions and conditions.

Who elected you to speak on behalf of the youth vote? How do you know they voted for him on this issue?

This is the same argument the Tories are using by lying about what he said regarding existing student loans - he has never said we would stay in the EU which you say 80% of people who voted for him desperately wanted him to do apparently

The six tests set out by Starmer are there and that is what I am basing my support for Labour on this issue on, not taking too literally what Corbyn says whilst trying to sit on the fence

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 10:45 pm

"Wiped out"here,given I moved here specifically as one of the most unlikely,to say I am pissed off is an understatement.A similar,in terms of Leave vote and one of the "traitorous" resigners and campaign manager for Kendall neighbour increased his majority.Various factors,I actually thought the manifesto didn't deal with some fundamentals but I always bemoan/have a critical eye,but for sure the Tory one and campaign could hardly have been worse.I rather ignore Tory-lite descriptions and the like FWIW.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 10:46 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Tubby it's as Owen Jones says, I understand that you disagree, but surely you can see that respecting a referendum outcome is a reasonable position.

There's an elision there though. Respect the referendum is being used to mean argue for Hard Brexit.

I'd bite your arm off for Soft Brexit right now. But to get that, I don't accept that people shouldn't be arguing strongly to reverse Brexit. If we just dance around a more competent Hard Brexit, that's what we'll get.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 10:59 pm

Respecting the referendum means respecting the result of the referendum for a lot of people - claiming that everyone who accepts the result is arguing for a 'Hard Brexit' is a complete load of bollocks.....some are but they are very much the people who voted Leave and you would expect them too

If you are suggesting that is what the labour Party are doing then I suggest you are wrong

A so-called 'soft Brexit' can only be delivered as part of the negotiations - it is not delivered by EEA membership for instance. The negotiations are not all about trade, there are actually quite a few things that matter to us not covered by the EEA Treaty, such as the CAP and security

The only time we will know what Labour are concretely for is when the negotiations start to produce some concrete output and votes are need in the HoC or HoL - until then it is really looking for continuing the moaning about Corbyn using the same arguments we heard before June 8th

If you want the comfort of someone telling you it will all be alright in the end and we will definitely stay in the EU then go and join the LD

The current situation is shite and a mess, and finding a way through it whilst not damaging yourself in the case of a new election is not easy

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 11:12 pm

US healthcare provision is far more expensive (as a percentage of GDP) than that of other developed capitalist countries, with no better outcomes—indeed, similar outcomes are obtained while spending as little as half as much. Our peers use a wide variety of methods of provisioning and paying for healthcare.... Many use a single-payer system (whether provisioning of healthcare is nationalized or privatized), with government covering the costs, while some use private insurers.

What is unique about the United States is that we rely so extensively on private for-profit insurers...For-profit insurance requires some combination of the following: exclusion of those with pre-existing conditions, denial of payment for expensive claims, huge government subsidies, and large penalties on healthy people who would rationally opt out rather than pay high premiums to subsidize the unhealthy.

Social Security and Medicare provide a model for reform along single-payer lines. Social Security’s old-age retirement plan is nearly universal, with the federal government act-in as the single payer; Medicare is universal for those over age and the main part of it is single payer, with the federal government making the payments.

- Levy Economics Institute of Bard College
WHY THE COMPULSIVE SHIFT TO SINGLE PAYER? BECAUSE HEALTHCARE IS NOT INSURABLE

http://www.levyinstitute.org/pubs/pn_17_3.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sky'sGoneOut · Post by **Sky'sGoneOut** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 11:17 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:
Sky'sGoneOut wrote:I see Corbyn has come out and made it clear why I can never vote for Labour again under him.

He's come out with the same shit as the Tory Brexiteers. "Being in the Single market means being in the EU".

Erm no Jeremy, it really fucking doesn't.

I voted Labour because amongst other reasons I thought they may offer some sane alternative to what the Tories were offering in regards to Brexit. But no, we're getting the same deluded nonsense from Corbyn as we're getting from Tory backbenchers.

It's all very well spouting off on the stage at Glastonbury soaking up the adulation but how do you think your youth vote is going to feel when they realise you've sold them out for the puposes of political gain?

I never expected Corbyn to suddenly transform into an ardent remainer but for fuck's sake, something like 80% of those who support him want despereately to stay in the single market and to stay in Europe. Ok that may be a pipe dream now but he could at least acknowledge that and properly explain why he's going against their wishes.

I think you are wrong....can I call you deluded to?

I am pretty clear that EU membership is the only way that you can be said to have unfettered access to the SM....everything else comes with restrictions and conditions.

Who elected you to speak on behalf of the youth vote? How do you know they voted for him on this issue?

This is the same argument the Tories are using by lying about what he said regarding existing student loans - he has never said we would stay in the EU which you say 80% of people who voted for him desperately wanted him to do apparently

The six tests set out by Starmer are there and that is what I am basing my support for Labour on this issue on, not taking too literally what Corbyn says whilst trying to sit on the fence

You can call me whatever you like. I'm not talking about trivialities like student loans despite having one myself.

The simple fact is Corbyn today has alienated those remainers who voted for him.

Now I accept the political realities he and the Labour party are facing, and I accept he himself has long been an opponent of the European project. Some of his objections I agree with, some I don't.

But as I said, the vast majority of those who voted for him and the Labour party want to stay in the EU. And at the very least staying in the single market is, as they say, a red line.

And yet there isn't the slightest hint of compromise.

Why?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 11:19 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:Perhaps if you and your wing of the party had...

Please don't talk to another Labour party member this way.

Sky'sGoneOut · Post by **Sky'sGoneOut** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 11:33 pm

It would seem 'Brexit means Brexit' was simplistic bullshit.

Who'd have thunk it.

Sky'sGoneOut · Post by **Sky'sGoneOut** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 11:46 pm

Look I like Corbyn, I admire his principles, but you Europhiles on the left have to admit he's a lost cause.

He's told you so many, many times.

If you want to fight against austerity that's fine. You keep supporting him. And you'll have our support.

But some of us have this insane urge to stay in the EU, or at least stay in it as best we can. And it looks like from now on we'll be doing that without you.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 24 Jul, 2017 12:04 am

Goodnight, everyone
love,
cJA

Sky'sGoneOut · Post by **Sky'sGoneOut** » Mon 24 Jul, 2017 12:10 am

Goodnight and thank you for turning my nonsense into this.