Saturday 22nd July & Sunday 23rd July 2017

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 22 Jul, 2017 10:48 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... leadership" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tory members turn to David Davis in battle to succeed Theresa May

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 22 Jul, 2017 10:55 pm

grim read.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 22 Jul, 2017 10:58 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... atic-party" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Could Kamala Harris revive the fractured Democratic party for the 2020 election?

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 22 Jul, 2017 10:58 pm

http://www.euronews.com/2017/07/22/thou ... ciary-bill" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Tens of thousands of protesters gathered in Warsaw and cities across Poland for candle-lit vigils to protest against a bill to overhaul Poland’s Supreme Court.

Some protesters carried Polish and European Union flags, chanting “free courts”.

Poland’s upper house of parliament debated the bill into the night and finally approved it, defying the European Union and critics at home who say the legislation would undermine democratic checks and balances.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 22 Jul, 2017 10:59 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... our-voters" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 22 Jul, 2017 11:06 pm

http://barristerblogger.com/2017/07/22/ ... #more-2249" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **refitman** » Sat 22 Jul, 2017 11:36 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Ugh, what an amazingly triggering pic

EDIT: is that why its now gone??

RE-EDIT: no such luck, it appears

Something of the Michael Howards about that image.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 22 Jul, 2017 11:45 pm

Goodnight, everyone
love,
cJA

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 8:13 am

Oh dear...just read the replies...

John Hudak‏
@JohnJHudak
Follow
More
The new WH Communications Dir just explained that bc he was born in 1964, his generation didn't have the chance to serve in the military...

https://twitter.com/JohnJHudak/status/8 ... 8130776069

So how long will this one last?

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 8:32 am

This is very good from Rawnsley

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -are-going" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

we-cannot-prepare-to-leave-europe-until-we-know-where-we-are-going

Post by **adam** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 8:53 am

RogerOThornhill wrote:Oh dear...just read the replies...

John Hudak‏
@JohnJHudak
Follow
More
The new WH Communications Dir just explained that bc he was born in 1964, his generation didn't have the chance to serve in the military...
https://twitter.com/JohnJHudak/status/8 ... 8130776069

So how long will this one last?

I wonder how many 27 year olds served in the US military during the first gulf war.

Post by **adam** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 8:59 am

The guardian is full of 'who will replace May'. I don't think the tories will do anything that could risk another general election, which means that if she decides to stay put then that's what will happen for now.

It's an interesting side effect of devolution that it's moved a number of leading politicians out of the running for high office at a UK (or dare I say 'federal') level, although maybe Davidson is the kind of Tory who wouldn't survive the party outside of Scotland.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 9:51 am

Corbyn's interview in Marr is basically Ukip's position.

Includes lies about immigrants lowering wages

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 9:54 am

The maternity ward near Boston (the Leave capital of the UK) only actually remained viable (and therefore open) due to demand from immigrants - and Eastern Europeans rejuvenated a wasteland high street to one with viable shops and businesses.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 10:03 am

tinyclanger2 wrote:The maternity ward near Boston (the Leave capital of the UK) only actually remained viable (and therefore open) due to demand from immigrants - and Eastern Europeans rejuvenated a wasteland high street to one with viable shops and businesses.

We have a rapidly aging population. Immigration is one way of dealing with it. Not an ideal way, but what are the other answers? Work til you drop? The Tories appear to be already working on that particular solution.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 10:21 am

Kevin Schofield @PolhomeEditor

Jeremy Corbyn says "single market is dependent on membership of the EU". #marr
9:46 am · 23 Jul 2017

Corbyn seemed pretty clear this morning on Marr that he agrees with Theresa May that we must leave the single market in order to fulfil "the will of the people". And that Labour is undecided on the Customs Union. Which is consistent with Keir Starmer moving away from "seeking to remain in the Customs Union" to "not ruling out remaining in the Customs Union". Is there really any reason not to take what Corbyn says at face value? With voters split between two mutually exclusive policy directions, the leader of a political party can only do one thing, which is try to persuade one side or the other to the opposite position. I still feel Corbyn is trying to persuade remainers to the leave position. That's just how it looks to me.
What the rest of the PLP is thinking at this point is anyone's guess.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 10:22 am

Willow904 wrote:
Kevin Schofield @PolhomeEditor

Jeremy Corbyn says "single market is dependent on membership of the EU". #marr
9:46 am · 23 Jul 2017
Corbyn seemed pretty clear this morning on Marr that he agrees with Theresa May that we must leave the single market in order to fulfil "the will of the people". And that Labour is undecided on the Customs Union. Which is consistent with Keir Starmer moving away from "seeking to remain in the Customs Union" to "not ruling out remaining in the Customs Union". Is there really any reason not to take what Corbyn says at face value? With voters split between two mutually exclusive policy directions, the leader of a political party can only do one thing, which is try to persuade one side or the other to the opposite position. I still feel Corbyn is trying to persuade remainers to the leave position. That's just how it looks to me.
What the rest of the PLP is thinking at this point is anyone's guess.

"You have to be in the EU to be in the single market."

Straight talking and honest politics.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 10:28 am

Try as I might I don't feel Remain is represented. Leave is only the will of half the people after all. (and changing)
(LibDems/Vince Cable don't count as credible representation).

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 10:31 am

I accept that other discussions are going on, but don't see any politician honestly willing to tell us what the realistic view is.
Do I assume we don't yet know? Or are we too afraid of being branded project fear?

How about promoting the positive side to being in Europe? Or, Paul, is that your thinking with respect to thinking about what Europe COULD be in the future?

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 10:34 am

I was thinking yesterday about knowledge, political and social literacy, democracy etc, and how to better join up what we already have. I may finally be getting what Constant's New Babylon was aiming at. Mark out a Utopian vision and perhaps the dialogue can fundamentally change.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 10:54 am

tinyclanger2 wrote: are we too afraid of being branded project fear?

I think that's part of it.
As I see it, the tories are following through on brexit for their own nefarious purposes, Labour are going with their democratic principles.
Surely the penny will drop eventually that the best interests of the country will be served by jettisoning their principles, after all they did campaign for remain. Sometimes you have to get your hands dirty.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 11:03 am

gilsey wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote: are we too afraid of being branded project fear?
I think that's part of it.
As I see it, the tories are following through on brexit for their own nefarious purposes, Labour are going with their democratic principles.
Surely the penny will drop eventually that the best interests of the country will be served by jettisoning their principles, after all they did campaign for remain. Sometimes you have to get your hands dirty.

This may well be correct. In which case Labour still needs to choose the right moment to "pivot" - and I doubt if we are there yet.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 11:05 am

yes - can see timing would be critical here

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 11:21 am

Good morfternoon.

Would someone please point me in the direction of refitman's handy hints for posters? (See - I'm so bad at this lark that I can't even find the instructions!)

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 11:23 am

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=39" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 11:24 am

Rules and Regulations at top.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 11:26 am

I was pointing at,but that didn't seem to work.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 11:30 am

tinyclanger2 wrote:yes - can see timing would be critical here

As with most things

Titter ye not.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 11:32 am

tinyclanger2 wrote:yes - can see timing would be critical here

EmRG0Y5N8lg

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 11:33 am

Bumboils.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 11:34 am

[youtube]EmRG0Y5N8lg[/youtube]

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 11:36 am

The instructions are simple to follow. Unfortunately, I appear to be simply incapable of following them.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 11:36 am

Relieved,for a minute there it was an attempt of picture of bumboils.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 11:37 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
gilsey wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote: are we too afraid of being branded project fear?
I think that's part of it.
As I see it, the tories are following through on brexit for their own nefarious purposes, Labour are going with their democratic principles.
Surely the penny will drop eventually that the best interests of the country will be served by jettisoning their principles, after all they did campaign for remain. Sometimes you have to get your hands dirty.
This may well be correct. In which case Labour still needs to choose the right moment to "pivot" - and I doubt if we are there yet.

So when Corbyn says leaving the EU means we have to leave the single market, you think that helps to move us towards a soft Brexit solution?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 11:39 am

But you successfully have.We all make mitsakes.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 11:45 am

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... rn-ireland" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Labour sounds alarm over rollout of universal credit rape clause into N Ireland
Opposition calls for parliamentary debate, saying women risk being criminalised if two-child limit is imposed in region

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 11:47 am

Fucking repulsive fascistic bastards,to name their better qualities.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 11:53 am

So when Corbyn says leaving the EU means we have to leave the single market, you think that helps to move us towards a soft Brexit solution?

Leaving the EU means we will have to change our access to the Single Market as membership of the EU defines the level of access we have

I don't necessarily agree with his terminology and I maintain you don't 'leave' the Single Market per se

The rights of access to the SM and CU will have to be agreed during the negotiations - you, for one, don't want the 'Norway Option' as that only covers the SM and not the CU - we would have to have a bespoke agreement different from other countries if that is the case

I maintain that whatever happens the UK's access to the SM and CU will be based on a bespoke deal - informed by the current EEA and EFTA agreements but not identical

I would also reaffirm my belief that the SM is not this wonderful thing that has been a wonder to behold - it has led to a lot of tensions and arguments over the years. The only reason I support us maintaining broadly the same access as we have now is that our economy has been based on this for 25 years (and before that the predecessors) so damage will be done if we massively change the access. The world also seems to be moving to these trading blocs and being outside one may not be the best way to deliver a successful economic performance in the future

The SM as it has existed since the 80s was a Thatcherite construct and has not always worked in the favour of the individuals within the EU and can often depend on the way in which the political wind of the EU is moving - and today, as is often the case, it is to the right

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 11:59 am

Indeed, isn't JC just repeating the EU's own line re the single market?

To repeat, there may come a point when - despite the above - staying within it in some form becomes feasible. Again, we aren't there yet.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 11:59 am

This is well worth a read for a lucid analysis of our current economy. One might disagree with some of the bits here and there and actions required but it's written by a Tory so we're hardly likely to agree with everything.

Ctrl + Alt + Del. Conservatives must reboot capitalism

https://unherd.com/2017/07/ctrl-alt-del ... apitalism/

And amongst some out there, this will cause a sharp intake of breath...

It is not inequality that bites deepest, but injustice. People expect that the CEO of a corporation will be the highest paid person on the payroll. What they don’t accept is that FTSE 100 bosses are paid 174 times the average worker’s wage in this decade – compared to 13 to 44 times in 1980.

In 2011, YouGov found that 85% of Britons believed that income should depend on how hard someone works or on their talent. But analysis by the Institute of Policy Studies found that of 241 of the highest paid CEOs between 1993 and 2012, nearly 40% were either sacked, their company had to pay significant fraud-related fines and settlements, or their companies required some form of bail out from the state. Instead of bosses being paid for success, a significant minority were handsomely rewarded for failure.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 12:00 pm

Andrew Rawnsley

"The British debate tends to neglect an important fact. There can be no transitional arrangement without the consent of the EU27. Michel Barnier, the point man for the commission at the Brexit talks, currently has no mandate from EU leaders to negotiate a transition. He would have to go back to them before he could engage on the subject. Many of the EU27 are sympathetic to the idea, as they are also astonished that Britain has been late to see the need for this, but their agreement would come with big qualifications attached."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -are-going" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 12:24 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Indeed, isn't JC just repeating the EU's own line re the single market?

To repeat, there may come a point when - despite the above - staying within it in some form becomes feasible. Again, we aren't there yet.

Why isn't it feasible to stay in the single market right now?

Where has the EU said we can't negotiate to remain?

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 12:45 pm

Willow904 wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Indeed, isn't JC just repeating the EU's own line re the single market?

To repeat, there may come a point when - despite the above - staying within it in some form becomes feasible. Again, we aren't there yet.
Why isn't it feasible to stay in the single market right now?

Where has the EU said we can't negotiate to remain?

I don't understand what you are saying - the assumption we are making is we are leaving in all these discussion - if we decide to remain then all these discussions are irrelevant as membership of the EU defines our access - the interesting thing if we decide to Remain is not the SM/CU but the requirement to join the EU and Schengen and whether all the rebates and derogations would remain too - but that is a question for another day

We currently have full access as members of the EU and will do until March 2019

If we decide to stay in the EEA then there is a treaty that covers the access to the SM regarding that but it does not include the CU so we would have to deal with that separately

It all depends what your definition of the word 'in' is - I don't see it as a binary 'in ' and 'out' - that is Hugo's argument

Once we leave the EU all rights and requirements pertaining to that membership will fall (there may be a transition though but that is unclear) and so any future rights and requirements will, by definition, need to be defined

I think the difficulty we have in discussing this comes from the fact we look at it in completely different ways. You seem to see the SM as being almost like an organisation in its own rights where you are either in it or outside it - I see it as something that you have a right to use based on a membership or via a bespoke agreement and there are multiple facets to that

I look at Switzerland as the example - it is not in the EU or the EEA and all its access to the SM is defined in bilateral treaties - it is a bit of a mess and is not the way I would ever suggest for the future but Switzerland is neither in or out of the Single Market

Non-EU members access to the SM is more complicated that the in/out definition takes account of

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 12:48 pm

On other matters, perhaps it's a product of my age, but I fail to understand why casting a woman as a bloke is a landmark success for gender equality.
Last of the Summer Wine got further than that decades ago.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 12:50 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Indeed, isn't JC just repeating the EU's own line re the single market?

To repeat, there may come a point when - despite the above - staying within it in some form becomes feasible. Again, we aren't there yet.

That is easily answered.

Emphatically not, no.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 12:51 pm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_market" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A single market is a type of trade bloc in which most trade barriers have been removed (for goods) with some common policies on product regulation, and freedom of movement of the factors of production (capital and labour) and of enterprise and services. The goal is that the movement of capital, labour, goods, and services between the members is as easy as within them.[1] The physical (borders), technical (standards) and fiscal (taxes) barriers among the member states are removed to the maximum extent possible. These barriers obstruct the freedom of movement of the four factors of production.

When I talk of being "in" the single market, I mean accepting the four freedoms. If you don't accept the four freedoms then you will be negotiating to trade with the single market from outside and you won't get the full benefits.

The basic principles of the four freedoms are what makes the single market a single market. Accepting freedom of movement, however tweaked, means not taking back full control of our borders. The Tories are saying we need to leave the single market in order to take back control of our borders. I don't think this is a good move, but it at least makes sense as an argument. Corbyn just said we need to leave the single market in order to leave the EU. This may be just about correct on a technical level, but if you negotiate to remain within the single market is not really the case on a practical level. We can leave the EU but remain within the wider single market area. The only reason I can see for making the kind of statement Corbyn just made is to convince of a need to leave the single market that isn't based on a desire to restrict immigration. It's a Ukip type of argument that we voted to leave the EU therefore we voted to leave all EU related institutions. As far as I'm concerned it's the kind of argument that takes us away from a more nuanced, soft Brexit solution rather then towards one.

As I say, I don't know if this is the position of the PLP in general, or just Corbyn and the inner circle. I don't know how it will shape Labour's response to Tory policy over the coming couple of years. All I know is that every time Corbyn says anything on Brexit, I get the sense he has a fundamentally different point of view on the subject to me.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 12:53 pm

Labour's straightforward and honest position is that we must leave the single market.

But then negotiate exactly the same terms.

Straightforward and honest.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 12:53 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Indeed, isn't JC just repeating the EU's own line re the single market?

To repeat, there may come a point when - despite the above - staying within it in some form becomes feasible. Again, we aren't there yet.

That is easily answered.

Emphatically not, no.

So when we leave the EU we automatically remain in the Single Market then (although I disagree with terminology)?

It may be that when we leave that we have already an agreement on our access rights after that but that is not the point being made and is not an assumption we can make at the moment

I think the EU have made it quite clear that it we leave with no agreement in place then we are out of the SM haven't they?

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 1:03 pm

Willow904 wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_market

A single market is a type of trade bloc in which most trade barriers have been removed (for goods) with some common policies on product regulation, and freedom of movement of the factors of production (capital and labour) and of enterprise and services. The goal is that the movement of capital, labour, goods, and services between the members is as easy as within them.[1] The physical (borders), technical (standards) and fiscal (taxes) barriers among the member states are removed to the maximum extent possible. These barriers obstruct the freedom of movement of the four factors of production.
When I talk of being "in" the single market, I mean accepting the four freedoms. If you don't accept the four freedoms then you will be negotiating to trade with the single market from outside and you won't get the full benefits.

The basic principles of the four freedoms are what makes the single market a single market. Accepting freedom of movement, however tweaked, means not taking back full control of our borders. The Tories are saying we need to leave the single market in order to take back control of our borders. I don't think this is a good move, but it at least makes sense as an argument. Corbyn just said we need to leave the single market in order to leave the EU. This may be just about correct on a technical level, but if you negotiate to remain within the single market is not really the case on a practical level. We can leave the EU but remain within the wider single market area. The only reason I can see for making the kind of statement Corbyn just made is to convince of a need to leave the single market that isn't based on a desire to restrict immigration. It's a Ukip type of argument that we voted to leave the EU therefore we voted to leave all EU related institutions. As far as I'm concerned it's the kind of argument that takes us away from a more nuanced, soft Brexit solution rather then towards one.

As I say, I don't know if this is the position of the PLP in general, or just Corbyn and the inner circle. I don't know how it will shape Labour's response to Tory policy over the coming couple of years. All I know is that every time Corbyn says anything on Brexit, I get the sense he has a fundamentally different point of view on the subject to me.

I still don't understand this

When we leave the EU all the rights and requirements we have currently fall - so we will no longer have access to the SM, CU or anything else.

The Tories do not accept the right of free movement so any access to the SM would have to be made on those grounds.....this would suggest some sort of trade deal like the EU have with other countries but would only have limited access to parts of the single market

Labour have accepted the first point and one of the six tests is that we have the same rights and requirements as now. That will only be achieved either by staying in or agreeing to all the SM provisions which will exact a heavy price, as well as making us subject to the rules of the market. I understand well the contradictory nature of the Labour party position but there is no need to make the decisions that it demands at this moment - Labour could well argue that staying in is the only way to meet their tests and give us the clout we need

Remember everyone has been dealt a shit hand and are trying to make the best of it - of course the tactics are muddy and easily shot down but that is what we have. The alternative is for Labour to become a pro-remain party which would be a grave tactical error in my view. If you want them to do that you can do - but I think the message I would take from the election would be that you are wrong and it would leave the way open to a Tory Brexit you oppose

I also do not see, as I have explained before, the SM as being the always positive and benign thing that is the road to a cornucopia of riches - it works best for corporations and not necessarily for people. It is necessary for our current economic wellbeing but, personally, I think it will be reformed significantly in coming years due to pressures from within the EU itself - internal competition on taxation is something I find exceedingly unhelpful

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sun 23 Jul, 2017 1:06 pm

Jared O’Mara calls for action on bullying and harassment by MPs

"A newly-elected disabled MP is calling for action to address the bullying and harassment he has witnessed in the House of Commons, in a bid to introduce a new culture of “decorum and professionalism” into parliament.

Jared O’Mara has previously spoken to Disability News Service (DNS) about some of the access barriers he has faced in parliament since he defeated former Liberal Democrat leader Nick Clegg to win the Sheffield Hallam seat in June."

https://www.disabilitynewsservice.com/j ... nt-by-mps/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;