Monday 24th July 2017

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 24 Jul, 2017 7:43 pm

Have a good night, everyone
love,
cJA

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 24 Jul, 2017 7:44 pm

Temulkar wrote:
citizenJA wrote:If Tubby Isaacs is concerned about a thing, it's not likely initiated by personal malice
Yet he incessantly focuses on one personality to the exclusion of all else in the situation, so...

He's the Leader of the Opposition. Comes with the territory. I think Caroline Flint is much worse, but she's not even shadow paperclips minister.

When Gerald Coyne was putting himself forward as a serious political player, I called him out as a disgrace, even though I could have given him a free pass if my motivation was just to weaken Corbyn.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Mon 24 Jul, 2017 7:49 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
Temulkar wrote:
citizenJA wrote:If Tubby Isaacs is concerned about a thing, it's not likely initiated by personal malice
Yet he incessantly focuses on one personality to the exclusion of all else in the situation, so...
He's the Leader of the Opposition. Comes with the territory. I think Caroline Flint is much worse, but she's not even shadow paperclips minister.

When Gerald Coyne was putting himself forward as a serious political player, I called him out as a disgrace.

Leader of the opposition, not in power, not privy to brexit negotiations, and unlikely to be as long as the bitterites continue their campaign of lies. Hard brexit wont be corbyn's fault, it will be the fault of those who chose to use brexit as a means to attack him, whilst letting the actual government off the hook. Just as they have been doing since June 23rd last year. Just as you have been doing since June 23rd last year, along with the, now conclusively disproved, nonsense of unelectablity.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Mon 24 Jul, 2017 7:59 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
I've got a solution. Norway. I can't guarantee it, but I thought I made a case why it would be acceptable to the EU.

How does that first bit work? Did the people in my road think "I don't like him, fancy metropolitan, it's Brexit for me!"

That's Brendon O'Neiil stuff.
Norway, so no deal on agriculture and fisheries. No Customs Union and no say in the rules.....Schengen as well. No passporting either

Or do you mean Norway but other things as well and some bits left off so essentially not Norway
I'd be delighted to be in Schengen, but I don't think it'll be conceded easily or pushed too hard by the EU, for reasons I've said.

Being outside the Customs Union but in the EEA means that Norway only has Customs checks for stuff originating outside the EU. That's our best hope of doing right by Ireland, and having a low key border, like Norway and Switzerland do.

The CAP isn't generally considered something it's disastrous not to be in.

Before the election Owen Jones was saying this:

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ank-cheque" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Labour will rip up Theresa May’s Brexit plan but respect the referendum result. The benefits of the single market and the customs union will be on the table.

Now Barry Gardiner is saying this:

Of course we must try to retain the economic benefits of the single market when we leave the EU: some argue this means we should negotiate to stay inside the European Economic Area (EEA), which would retain the friction-free trade not only in goods but also in services, upon which the bulk of our economy is based.

However, the political price to be paid for such access is correspondingly high, and runs directly counter to the leavers’ four objectives. In the EEA, Britain would be obliged to keep the four freedoms, including the free movement of people, so no regaining control of our borders; align its regulatory regime with the EU’s – so no regaining sovereignty (in fact we would no longer have a seat at the table so there would actually be a reduction of sovereignty); follow ECJ rulings; and still pay into the EU budget.

Because it's Labour's job to only represent the interests of those who voted to leave the EU? Even when they are already well represented by the government who are pursuing the exact same aims? Where did the choice go that Owen Jones so generously offered us before the election?

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Mon 24 Jul, 2017 8:22 pm

Best remember that the country does not divide into 52% Hard Brexiteers and 48% Hard Remainers.

Most folk are somewhere in the middle without a sodding clue what's going on.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 24 Jul, 2017 8:42 pm

Bank of England warns over 'spiral of complacency' on household debt

The willingness of consumers to take on more debt to fund their spending helped the economy grow strongly in the six months after the EU referendum, a period when the Bank expected growth to fall sharply.

Over the past year, Brazier [Alex Brazier, the Bank director for financial stability] said, household incomes had grown by just 1.5% but outstanding car loans, credit card balances and personal loans had risen by 10%. (Guardian)

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... -car-loans

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 24 Jul, 2017 8:55 pm

Temulkar wrote:
Leader of the opposition, not in power, not privy to brexit negotiations, and unlikely to be as long as the bitterites continue their campaign of lies. Hard brexit wont be corbyn's fault, it will be the fault of those who chose to use brexit as a means to attack him, whilst letting the actual government off the hook. Just as they have been doing since June 23rd last year. Just as you have been doing since June 23rd last year, along with the, now conclusively disproved, nonsense of unelectablity.

Bitterites? He's getting a free pass on Hard Brexit from all except about 50 MPs, who are mostly in London and going with their constituencies- who just rewarded them with stonking majorities. If there's some rump of Jim Murphy types cynically driving the opposition to Hard Brexit so they can pop up with a Blairite coup, I've missed them.

And losing to Theresa May by 57 seats after the worst campaign and manifesto in living memory isn't all that great a result, in my book. You don't conclusively prove somebody is electable by them not being elected.

Campaign of lies, eh? Who's just popped up here then? It's Barry Gardiner. He's Shadow Trade Secretary- I'm not searching out obscure people here.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ain-europe" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Davis, to his credit, has considered paying for access to the Single Market. As far as I can tell, Gardiner thinks UK exports should whizz across the EU without paying in.

The ground is being prepared for Hard Brexit. I'm not happy with that.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 24 Jul, 2017 8:59 pm

Willow904 wrote:
Before the election Owen Jones was saying this:

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ank-cheque" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Labour will rip up Theresa May’s Brexit plan but respect the referendum result. The benefits of the single market and the customs union will be on the table.
Now Barry Gardiner is saying this:

Of course we must try to retain the economic benefits of the single market when we leave the EU: some argue this means we should negotiate to stay inside the European Economic Area (EEA), which would retain the friction-free trade not only in goods but also in services, upon which the bulk of our economy is based.

However, the political price to be paid for such access is correspondingly high, and runs directly counter to the leavers’ four objectives. In the EEA, Britain would be obliged to keep the four freedoms, including the free movement of people, so no regaining control of our borders; align its regulatory regime with the EU’s – so no regaining sovereignty (in fact we would no longer have a seat at the table so there would actually be a reduction of sovereignty); follow ECJ rulings; and still pay into the EU budget.
Because it's Labour's job to only represent the interests of those who voted to leave the EU? Even when they are already well represented by the government who are pursuing the exact same aims? Where did the choice go that Owen Jones so generously offered us before the election?

It's somehow gone from "Don't alienate the leavers" to "Winner takes all for the leavers"- if what they're supposed to have voted for is even possible.

Dreadful. From the Shadow Trade Minister, no less.

I wonder if Starmer (who hasn't shown much but at least probably knows the score with Brexit) is going to step down? He's lining up some paid legal work on the side.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 24 Jul, 2017 9:01 pm

The edit in my last post was to substitute square brackets for curvy ones.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 24 Jul, 2017 9:08 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
Before the election Owen Jones was saying this:

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ank-cheque" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Labour will rip up Theresa May’s Brexit plan but respect the referendum result. The benefits of the single market and the customs union will be on the table.
Now Barry Gardiner is saying this:

Of course we must try to retain the economic benefits of the single market when we leave the EU: some argue this means we should negotiate to stay inside the European Economic Area (EEA), which would retain the friction-free trade not only in goods but also in services, upon which the bulk of our economy is based.

However, the political price to be paid for such access is correspondingly high, and runs directly counter to the leavers’ four objectives. In the EEA, Britain would be obliged to keep the four freedoms, including the free movement of people, so no regaining control of our borders; align its regulatory regime with the EU’s – so no regaining sovereignty (in fact we would no longer have a seat at the table so there would actually be a reduction of sovereignty); follow ECJ rulings; and still pay into the EU budget.
Because it's Labour's job to only represent the interests of those who voted to leave the EU? Even when they are already well represented by the government who are pursuing the exact same aims? Where did the choice go that Owen Jones so generously offered us before the election?
It's somehow gone from "Don't alienate the leavers" to "Winner takes all for the leavers"- if what they're supposed to have voted for is even possible.

Dreadful. From the Shadow Trade Minister, no less.

I wonder if Starmer (who hasn't shown much but at least probably knows the score with Brexit) is going to step down? He's lining up some paid legal work on the side.

Yes - I saw the Keir Starmer article. My first thought was that it's a strange time for the Shadow "Brexit" Minister to consider taking on extra-curricula activities.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 24 Jul, 2017 9:09 pm

Calling out existence of shadow paper clips Minister as fake news.

Remain vigilant comrades.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 24 Jul, 2017 9:10 pm

It might just be that Starmer likes earning money- William Hague was allowed to do stuff by Cameron when he came back on the frontbench. But the timing is odd, as you say.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 24 Jul, 2017 9:11 pm

HindleA wrote:Calling out existence of shadow paper clips Minister as fake news.

Remain vigilant comrades.

Ha ha. I wish it were a job. I'd give it to Flint.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 24 Jul, 2017 9:18 pm

Barring a few I bemoan the vast majority.Twas ever thus,though.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 24 Jul, 2017 9:22 pm

I think if I was sufficiently satisfied I would internally combust or something similar.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 24 Jul, 2017 9:33 pm

Role reversal.

Night Night.

(thinking of you Roger and better half,if you look in)

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Mon 24 Jul, 2017 9:33 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:
citizenJA wrote:@RogerOThornhill
Please give my love to your family
Thank you.

Quick update for those interested - she was admitted this morning after being given the choice of "go home with anti-sickness drugs and then maybe have to come back to A&E anyway or we'll admit you now". Easy choice. Let them try and work out what's wrong. Went to see her again tonight and she's a bit more comfortable. There was something on the scan that was a slight cause for concern (which also corresponded to a pain she had) so they'll see what they can find.

Thanks for the update Roger, love, best wishes & fingers crossed for you both xx

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Mon 24 Jul, 2017 9:38 pm

The prospect of the UK's future trading relationship with the US being negotiated by disgraced former Defence Secretary Liam Fox is rising to the top of my personal list of concerns.
Surely some mistake.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 24 Jul, 2017 9:40 pm

Ed Conway can reassure you. Chicken (on which there'd likely be a major difference) is 0.2% of UK-US trade. These things take ages for a reason.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 24 Jul, 2017 9:45 pm

Combined (what remains of teeth)brushing and posting.This multitask thngi a pieze of piz

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... popularity" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Housing benefit cuts spark row as Emmanuel Macron's poll ratings fall
Students and opposition party demand French president withdraw cost-cutting measure as he’s accused of targeting poor

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Mon 24 Jul, 2017 9:49 pm

From one year ago. Can we avoid a return to this crap?

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Mon 24 Jul, 2017 9:51 pm

Jerry Hogg‏
@jerryhogg

One side point from the Charlie Gard case: Mr Justice Francis soundly criticises Tory legal aid policy in this matter. Excellent judgement.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 24 Jul, 2017 10:01 pm

Cleverly put,of course political and of course he thinks it intentional.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 24 Jul, 2017 10:10 pm

Talking of Charlie Gard, this is astonishing...

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 24 Jul, 2017 10:13 pm

Old Panorama on youtube, about the 1995 Tory Leadership. IDS is one of the main Redwood supporters. What a career.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 24 Jul, 2017 10:18 pm

@HindleA

Night night.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 24 Jul, 2017 10:20 pm

Redwood is actually coming across OK so far, and being attacked on silly "You were loyal last week" stuff. Redwood rightly points out Major resigned as leader, which was a bit of a gamechanger.

IDS' fellow Redwood supporter on the panel is the charming Barry Legg, one of Shirley Porter's chief muckers.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 24 Jul, 2017 10:40 pm

https://mainlymacro.blogspot.co.uk/2017/07/lexit.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sleepposting

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Mon 24 Jul, 2017 10:50 pm

Interesting........

Farmers Weekly‏
@FarmersWeekly

GREAT NEWS FOR FARMERS... Defra @DefraGovUK sec Michael Gove has just guaranteed FREE TRADE deal with #EU after #Brexit #royalwelshshow

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Farmers Weekly‏ @FarmersWeekly 4h4 hours ago
More
Dear readers: Gove comments are accurate on what he told reporters. Can he really guarantee a free trade deal with EU after #Brexit ? NO.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 24 Jul, 2017 10:53 pm

Farmers Weekly‏
@FarmersWeekly
Follow
More
Dear readers: Gove comments are accurate on what he told reporters. Can he really guarantee a free trade deal with EU after #Brexit ? NO.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 24 Jul, 2017 10:54 pm

You beat me to it!

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 24 Jul, 2017 10:59 pm

Some reaction to Grayling Crossrail 2/abandoned electrification combo.

Transport secretary's backing for Crossrail 2 sparks anger outside London

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 24 Jul, 2017 11:10 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... cy-cartoon" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Martin Rowson on the Tories' new energy policy

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 24 Jul, 2017 11:16 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... ail-2-plan" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 24 Jul, 2017 11:18 pm

(Do you think they noticed)

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Mon 24 Jul, 2017 11:19 pm

HindleA wrote:Some reaction to Grayling Crossrail 2/abandoned electrification combo.

Transport secretary's backing for Crossrail 2 sparks anger outside London

Yes I believe the Leeds Manchester route will now not be electrified.

Hey just a couple of backwater towns. Why would we need a good rail link?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 24 Jul, 2017 11:22 pm

I delayed the intended link myself.Ahem.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 24 Jul, 2017 11:26 pm

HindleA wrote:I delayed the intended link myself.Ahem.

Procrastination is the thief of time.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 24 Jul, 2017 11:27 pm

So, without further ado -

Night night.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 24 Jul, 2017 11:47 pm

Said boo to a goose today,didn't seem that impressed.

Post by **adam** » Mon 24 Jul, 2017 11:52 pm

The kind of post I'm not sure I can get to the end of, god knows how anyone else will feel.

I'm to repost the Jolyon Maugham quote that gilsey posted earlier this morning.

the Referendum result is that we should have Brexit unless public opinion decisively turns. We must listen. If the electorate comes to think that what it wanted from Brexit it will not get from Brexit it must be heard.

This is the only control on the dishonest conduct of a Referendum that our politics can offer. In a General Election you kick out a Government that breaks its Manifesto promises. But if the sanctity of a Referendum result survives both the lies told to deliver it and a public coming to understand it had been misled we have no functioning democracy at all.

There's a good starting point. 'The will of the people' is a dead end if it's all that can be said. There was a referendum and we voted to leave and we're leaving - but it's not impossible that public opinion could radically change when reality becomes more apparent.

I think Labour are being increasingly foolish and plain wrong in what they're saying - more below. For here, if The Will Of The People were expressed to restore capital punishment - and it seems less likely now than in the past but it's a reasonable hypothetical - then I would turn my back on a Labour party that said 'Well, that's the result' and then started arguing for the noose over the chair.

Norway - I know how much things can change but everything suggests that this is another dead end. The other members of the EEA won't have us and are likely to have the authority to say so and close the idea down.

Customs Union - our industrial base such as it is has developed over the last quarter century within a system of swift movement of goods and services, of an increasing culture of just in time ordering and an increasing Post-Fordist idea across different suppliers in different countries in specialisation. We're fucked as we stand now if we're outside the Customs Union and this isn't being said enough.

Single Market - this stuff about membership and access is pedantry. There is something about being within the single market which is qualitatively and functionally different (and better) than not being - and the rest of the EU will make sure that wherever on the 'access' scale we end up after this it will be qualitatively and functionally worse for us than being in.

And government - the tories have a minority government and have secured a small working majority. Again, nobody knows, but it is hugely and overwhelmingly unlikely that they will lose that majority in the short or medium term. Unhappy pro-remain conservatives will not risk bringing about a general election which they think they could easily lose. They just won't. The DUP won't take the same risk for a more focused 'Corbyn and McDonnell' reason. They are going to see through the Article 50 process and we will be out. They are probably going to see through the next four to five years.

The miserable as fuck plus side of that is that they will own the catastrophe. Labour should be opposing them. Fuck this nonsense about 52% and electability - when on earth did Corbyn ever care for a second about reshaping policies and ideas in order to chase public opinion and appeal to reluctant labour voters? When? Why now?

Labour should be opposing them. They should have been even louder during the campaign (which I think they did a decent job on, disagreeing with most people from the other direction this time) about all of the specifics that are now arising and they should have done it again during the Article 50 votes. When you stand up and shout about the fact the government don't know what they doing on Euratom - as one example - you shape public opinion. Sovereignty is more important than medical isotopes, yeah? That alone was a reason to vote against the government in January. It should not only be coming to the public's attention now.

I think we're fucked and I think there's nothing we can do about it but they need to be ready to offer something to pick up the pieces and I find what they're saying increasingly dishonest.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 25 Jul, 2017 4:59 am

@Adam

Great post. iI don't agree with some of your analysis, but thanks for acknowledging there are other viewpoints and offering opportunity for debate.

I still think you misunderstand Corbyn. But I don't know the guy and the misunderstanding may be mine. I think Labour are ready to oppose, but there is a democratic space for that, called the House of Commons. It's not his fault that May has wasted six months. If she'd called an emergency session now to debate Brexit, Corbyn would have been there.

My plea is to be patient and wait for Parliament to return. Labour have their six tests. If Corbyn doesn't apply them, he will lose my support.

But IMHO he is right not to have this debate on the silly season sofa.