Monday 24th July 2017

[PaulfromYorkshire]

I see Owen Jones is arguing why "as a Remainer" he has to accept Hard Brexit (ie leave the single market).

I don't really believe him

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... urosceptic" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Still, I am sure we need to stop all those Poles coming over here "wholesale" and "destroying" our jobs.

"Wholesale".

I didn't get to the end of Owen Jones' "why we must support leave" piece. Does he actually support leaving the single market? Or is it all about how a poorly drafted and implemented referendum trumps all other democracy and negates our democratic right to oppose? Because I'm not an MP. I didn't promise to implement the result of the referendum. Many people, like Jeremy Corbyn, refused to accept the decision to join the Common Market and campaigned tirelessly against it. So why should I be denied the same right? It's one thing to support leaving and giving positive reasons for it, rather another to tell people they have to support it just because other people voted for it. Other people voted to keep FPTP, do I have to support that too? Or can I continue to support efforts to introduce PR? I get that by voting for the referendum MPs put themselves in an impossible situation, but I have little sympathy. They didn't have to support David Cameron's flawed referendum. They are stuffing up our country and I'm not going to stop being angry about it just because a majority voted for it. A majority voted to keep the party that introduced the bedroom tax in power too. I'm not about to support that either. I see no good reasons for the bedroom tax and I see no good reasons to leave the EU. At the very least I want to stay in the single market. Owen Jones needs to come up with something better than "there is no alternative" to change minds. Telling people he agrees leaving the EU is a bad idea but people are being unreasonable by opposing it is a little bit desperate IMO.

My emphasis.

I don't think anyone is telling you to do anything are they?

But the bit I've highlighted is revealing to me. Because I voted Remain without a moment's hesitation, yet think we should respect the Referendum result. Not least because it seems to me to be the best hope of staying in. Owen Jones is the same. Other posters here are too. But we don't seem to figure in your view of the situation.

There is no more inconsistency in this view than one where you believe the right thing to do is to try and reverse a referendum result.

As many posters here keep reminding us, these are both crap places to be. Let's not bicker about which crap way forward is best, when most of us want to end up in more or less the same place.

The mistake has been made. Everyone here knew it was a bad idea. Nobody has a monopoly of wisdom on how best to deal with it.

[SpinningHugo]

where does that quote about the Poles come from...you have used it twice now, once in a comment of Jones's article for which i find no evidence he said it

"the wholesale importation of underpaid workers from central Europe in order to destroy conditions."

- J Corbyn on Marr yesterday.

"wholesale importation" ,"destroy". We can all imagine what the reaction would have been if a Tory had said anything as disgusting and untrue as that,


He was, of course, rather good on immigration at one point. Now he isn't.

so you selectively quoted him then....poor show

he is clearly talking about gangmasters which is an acknowledged problem

as said yesterday he shouldnt mix up this issue with free movement

Absolutely rubbish. Nowhere does he refer to that. The only misquote is I missed out the word "underpaid" workers. You obviously didn't watch it in Switzerland, I did.

Go find it on youtube. The context was he was saying we'll still need skilled "Europeans" working in Britain (ignoring the fact that I'm a European and will be regardless of Brexit) working for firms "like BMW" but we won't be having the wholesale importation of underpaid East Europeans destroying conditions.

It was pure undiluted Ukip.

[Willow904]

where does that quote about the Poles come from...you have used it twice now, once in a comment of Jones's article for which i find no evidence he said it

Also the Single Market should constitute everything traded in the EU i believe, it is just that they are excluded from the EEA deal, as is the CU which is also seen to be intrinsic by the EU

If agriculture is not in the SM then why do we keep talking about food security in relation to it?

It's the impact on supply chains and the possible impact of immigration curbs (harder to get workers for seasonal work if we no longer offer the rights people enjoy under free movement).

i am not sure that is how it is being presented at all.....it is also about importing of food. Jay Rayner touched on this the other day

Just to be clear the point I am trying to make is that this idea of a SM that is clear and simple is underestimating the difficulties we will have in convincing both the EU and the electorate about joining it

At the moment it seems that the aim is to have full CU and SM just as the current EU membership gives. This may be possible outside EU but will be cery difficult to sell.

the arguments I see on here, especially from Hugo are doomed to failure I think

but Hugos priority is to attack Corbyn and Labour I think

I understand accepting the four freedoms to stay in the SM is hard to sell. My point is, far from trying to sell the "soft" option, Corbyn is going out of his way to contrive reasons to reject it. How does talking down a particular option promote it? It doesn't, does it?

[gilsey]

How does the 'Downing St spokesperson' say these things with a straight face?

He said that, as a result of “years of hard work and sacrifice by the public, the UK economy was “in a strong position”.

[AngryAsWell]

Brits 'keener on single market access than full immigration control', Brexit poll shows

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politic ... 94611.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[AnatolyKasparov]

How does the 'Downing St spokesperson' say these things with a straight face?

He said that, as a result of “years of hard work and sacrifice by the public, the UK economy was “in a strong position”.

They've had a lot of practice?

[PaulfromYorkshire]

i am not sure that is how it is being presented at all.....it is also about importing of food. Jay Rayner touched on this the other day

Just to be clear the point I am trying to make is that this idea of a SM that is clear and simple is underestimating the difficulties we will have in convincing both the EU and the electorate about joining it

At the moment it seems that the aim is to have full CU and SM just as the current EU membership gives. This may be possible outside EU but will be cery difficult to sell.

the arguments I see on here, especially from Hugo are doomed to failure I think

but Hugos priority is to attack Corbyn and Labour I think

I understand accepting the four freedoms to stay in the SM is hard to sell. My point is, far from trying to sell the "soft" option, Corbyn is going out of his way to contrive reasons to reject it. How does talking down a particular option promote it? It doesn't, does it?

He has to say that precisely because you are correct. If he says we will stay in the Single Market and Customs Union he is in so many words saying we will stay in the EU. Which would lose him the next election IMHO and therefore make Hard Brexit more likely.

The long game is to go with the people and hopefully land them in a good place, probably (hopefully?) mainly still in the EU.

[SpinningHugo]

i am not sure that is how it is being presented at all.....it is also about importing of food. Jay Rayner touched on this the other day

Just to be clear the point I am trying to make is that this idea of a SM that is clear and simple is underestimating the difficulties we will have in convincing both the EU and the electorate about joining it

At the moment it seems that the aim is to have full CU and SM just as the current EU membership gives. This may be possible outside EU but will be cery difficult to sell.

the arguments I see on here, especially from Hugo are doomed to failure I think

but Hugos priority is to attack Corbyn and Labour I think

I understand accepting the four freedoms to stay in the SM is hard to sell. My point is, far from trying to sell the "soft" option, Corbyn is going out of his way to contrive reasons to reject it. How does talking down a particular option promote it? It doesn't, does it?

He has to say that precisely because you are correct. If he says we will stay in the Single Market and Customs Union he is in so many words saying we will stay in the EU. Which would lose him the next election IMHO and therefore make Hard Brexit more likely.

The long game is to go with the people and hopefully land them in a good place, probably (hopefully?) mainly still in the EU.

So he has to argue for Hard Brexit in order to stop it?

This plan is indeed very cunning.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

He has to say that precisely because you are correct. If he says we will stay in the Single Market and Customs Union he is in so many words saying we will stay in the EU. Which would lose him the next election IMHO and therefore make Hard Brexit more likely.

The long game is to go with the people and hopefully land them in a good place, probably (hopefully?) mainly still in the EU.

So he has to argue for Hard Brexit in order to stop it?

This plan is indeed very cunning.

[Willow904]

i am not sure that is how it is being presented at all.....it is also about importing of food. Jay Rayner touched on this the other day

Just to be clear the point I am trying to make is that this idea of a SM that is clear and simple is underestimating the difficulties we will have in convincing both the EU and the electorate about joining it

At the moment it seems that the aim is to have full CU and SM just as the current EU membership gives. This may be possible outside EU but will be cery difficult to sell.

the arguments I see on here, especially from Hugo are doomed to failure I think

but Hugos priority is to attack Corbyn and Labour I think

I understand accepting the four freedoms to stay in the SM is hard to sell. My point is, far from trying to sell the "soft" option, Corbyn is going out of his way to contrive reasons to reject it. How does talking down a particular option promote it? It doesn't, does it?

He has to say that precisely because you are correct. go with the people and hopefully land them in a good place, probably (hopefully?) mainly still in the EU.

That's an interpretation adopted by hard Brexiters because they want to ensure hard Brexit happens but it's not even what all leave voters believe, let alone the majority of people as a whole if the poll linked above is to be believed. If the Norway option isn't to be argued now, then when? We'll be out and pretty much on a path by the next election, so I struggle to grasp the promotion of a policy you don't believe in just to hang on to some hard-line Brexit voters theory. Howsillyofme talked of change management. It seems to me that Corbyn is trying to manage remain voters to a position of accepting hard Brexit not to manage leave voters to a position of accepting a soft Brexit. You don't reconcile people with accepting freedom of movement by resurrecting the referendum argument that EU immigrants push down wages and Corbyn surely knows that.

[AngryAsWell]

Just keeps getting better
Brexit: Theresa May refuses to rule out weakening of food standards in trade deal with US
No 10 will not guarantee that all regulations in place on food quality will be maintained after EU withdrawal

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 57036.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[PaulfromYorkshire]

That's an interpretation adopted by hard Brexiters because they want to ensure hard Brexit happens but it's not even what all leave voters believe, let alone the majority of people as a whole if the poll linked above is to be believed. If the Norway option isn't to be argued now, then when? We'll be out and pretty much on a path by the next election, so I struggle to grasp the promotion of a policy you don't believe in just to hang on to some hard-line Brexit voters theory. Howsillyofme talked of change management. It seems to me that Corbyn is trying to manage remain voters to a position of accepting hard Brexit not to manage leave voters to a position of accepting a soft Brexit. You don't reconcile people with accepting freedom of movement by resurrecting the referendum argument that EU immigrants push down wages and Corbyn surely knows that.

But Corbyn isn't the Prime Minister.

Labour has its 6 tests. When legislation comes before the Commons and Lords it will apply those. Hopefully the Government will lose some key votes. Who knows?

In the mean time, Labour has to play canny and most of all not be seen to oppose the referendum result. The big problem for Labour right now is there is nothing they can actually do. I hope those who oppose Tory Brexit will have patience and wait until there's something to debate and vote on in the House. Attacks on Corbyn in the interim will IMHO only make things worse.

[PorFavor]

Just keeps getting better
Brexit: Theresa May refuses to rule out weakening of food standards in trade deal with US
No 10 will not guarantee that all regulations in place on food quality will be maintained after EU withdrawal

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 57036.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is something that Labour should be fighting. I don't imagine that many people (be they "Inners" or "Outers") are happy with it. It's worrying (on several fronts) that Labour hasn't spoken up about it.

Edited for clarification -

By "it" I mean the whole "Brexit" US trade thing - which obviously includes this latest "it" which predates Theresa May's latest pronouncement (which was, in my view, inevitable as will be the lowering of British food safety standards in the name of a "level playing field").



Edited to remove a rogue "9"

[Tubby Isaacs]

I see Owen Jones is arguing why "as a Remainer" he has to accept Hard Brexit (ie leave the single market).

I don't really believe him

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... urosceptic" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Still, I am sure we need to stop all those Poles coming over here "wholesale" and "destroying" our jobs.

"Wholesale".

I thought that "wholesale" quote was very bad by Corbyn. Don't forget "importation". And we're supposed to be thankful he said it's "companies" who are doing it, so he's not blaming the immigrants, because he's fought racism all his life etc.

What's he talking about anyway? Sounds more like gangmasters and Kosovans, rather than EU freedom of movement.

[HindleA]

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... s-shoppers" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



https://visual.ons.gov.uk/shrinkflation ... chocolate/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Tubby Isaacs]

Brits 'keener on single market access than full immigration control', Brexit poll shows

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politic ... 94611.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Nice to see you!

Yep, that's one for Owen Jones. Sign that the value of the Single Market is sinking in. From there (and we're not there yet, with enough people, strongly enough) I don't think it's all that far to reversing Brexit. But I'll accept a Norway deal.

[Tubby Isaacs]

That's an interpretation adopted by hard Brexiters because they want to ensure hard Brexit happens but it's not even what all leave voters believe, let alone the majority of people as a whole if the poll linked above is to be believed. If the Norway option isn't to be argued now, then when? We'll be out and pretty much on a path by the next election, so I struggle to grasp the promotion of a policy you don't believe in just to hang on to some hard-line Brexit voters theory. Howsillyofme talked of change management. It seems to me that Corbyn is trying to manage remain voters to a position of accepting hard Brexit not to manage leave voters to a position of accepting a soft Brexit. You don't reconcile people with accepting freedom of movement by resurrecting the referendum argument that EU immigrants push down wages and Corbyn surely knows that.

But Corbyn isn't the Prime Minister.

Labour has its 6 tests. When legislation comes before the Commons and Lords it will apply those. Hopefully the Government will lose some key votes. Who knows?

In the mean time, Labour has to play canny and most of all not be seen to oppose the referendum result. The big problem for Labour right now is there is nothing they can actually do. I hope those who oppose Tory Brexit will have patience and wait until there's something to debate and vote on in the House. Attacks on Corbyn in the interim will IMHO only make things worse.

Well, to channel Willow, how is talking spurious nonsense against the the Single Market helping anybody? Those words will be quoted back at him if he later supports the Single Market.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

That's an interpretation adopted by hard Brexiters because they want to ensure hard Brexit happens but it's not even what all leave voters believe, let alone the majority of people as a whole if the poll linked above is to be believed. If the Norway option isn't to be argued now, then when? We'll be out and pretty much on a path by the next election, so I struggle to grasp the promotion of a policy you don't believe in just to hang on to some hard-line Brexit voters theory. Howsillyofme talked of change management. It seems to me that Corbyn is trying to manage remain voters to a position of accepting hard Brexit not to manage leave voters to a position of accepting a soft Brexit. You don't reconcile people with accepting freedom of movement by resurrecting the referendum argument that EU immigrants push down wages and Corbyn surely knows that.

But Corbyn isn't the Prime Minister.

Labour has its 6 tests. When legislation comes before the Commons and Lords it will apply those. Hopefully the Government will lose some key votes. Who knows?

In the mean time, Labour has to play canny and most of all not be seen to oppose the referendum result. The big problem for Labour right now is there is nothing they can actually do. I hope those who oppose Tory Brexit will have patience and wait until there's something to debate and vote on in the House. Attacks on Corbyn in the interim will IMHO only make things worse.

Well, to channel Willow, how is talking spurious nonsense against the the Single Market helping anybody? Those words will be quoted back at him if he later supports the Single Market.

I missed Corbyn yesterday. Sounds like it wasn't his finest moment.

I'm really judging Labour's overall approach, which to me still seems about right given the rock and hard place that fate has dealt us.

I guess the point is there are no perfect solutions to this mess, or anything anywhere near perfect. We just have to hold on tight and do our best to steer things to a place that is a decent outcome for most ordinary folk. I think everyone here (almost) wants that and I feel we should respect the range of views on how to get "there", when "there" is a place that can't be known.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Well, I'm not hopeful. You don't make anything better by inventing arguments that make Hard Brexit more likely.

I see Barry Gardiner, who had a good election, is against the Customs Union because the EU can agree bad deals for the UK with America. He's strongly in favour of having a frictionless border with Ireland. How he squares this circle, god knows.

[AngryAsWell]

Jeremy Corbyn: “wholesale” EU immigration has destroyed conditions for British workers
The Labour leader has told Andrew Marr that his party wants to leave the single market.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/st ... ns-british" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[AnatolyKasparov]

Brits 'keener on single market access than full immigration control', Brexit poll shows

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politic ... 94611.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Nice to see you!

Yep, that's one for Owen Jones. Sign that the value of the Single Market is sinking in. From there (and we're not there yet, with enough people, strongly enough) I don't think it's all that far to reversing Brexit. But I'll accept a Norway deal.

Well, we are at one regarding this anyway. It has been a genuinely odd sight witnessing some "sensible centrist" types convert to full blown vanguardism

[PorFavor]

@PaulfromYorkshire

That's why I'm concerned that Labour isn't making more of the prospective dangerous US trade deal possibility. Makes me worry (purely a gut instinct thing) that they don't want to do anything to upset the "Hard Brexit" applecart. So far, their reaction has been disappointing and atypical. If "Brexit" is to come about, I at least had faith that Labour would look out for our welfare (I know the Conservatives won't).

[Tubby Isaacs]

Brits 'keener on single market access than full immigration control', Brexit poll shows

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politic ... 94611.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Nice to see you!

Yep, that's one for Owen Jones. Sign that the value of the Single Market is sinking in. From there (and we're not there yet, with enough people, strongly enough) I don't think it's all that far to reversing Brexit. But I'll accept a Norway deal.

Well, we are at one regarding this anyway. It has been a genuinely odd sight witnessing some "sensible centrist" types convert to full blown vanguardism

Who are these people exactly? All I can see is about 50 MPs, mostly with constituencies that voted Remain. I can see more of them happily going along with "immigration bad" nonsense.

Surely there's a difference with this issue anyway. There's a cut off with it, coming very soon. There won't be an election till after it's done. It's not like being cautious to win power, then building from there.

[HindleA]

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/cros ... ay-forward" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


News story
Crossrail 2: a way forward

[HindleA]

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultat ... -and-wales" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Consultation outcome
Proposal on the provision of court and tribunal estate in England and Wales

[SpinningHugo]

The real fight starts now.

There are indeed around 50 Labour MPs who can hold their heads high. The ones who voted against art 50 (and were re-elected in 2017).

The rest, from Corbyn to Chukka, are just an embarrassment.

I'm glad i didn;t vote for them, doomed as my vote was. I don't want to be part of it.

[AnatolyKasparov]

I'm thinking more of vocifierous "48 per cent" types on social media - "Labour should outright oppose Brexit no matter what the electoral cost" sort of thing.

Inter alia, they often overestimate the extent to which politicians can "lead" supposedly "their" voters to do anything.

Because their view of politics is often very top-down, elitist, and MSM-centred.

Ellie Mae O'Hagan mentioined the other day that she had been to Blackpool (a strong "leave" area) and not one person - of all political persuasions - who voted for Brexit last year regretted that decision. The largely London-based chatterati with EU avatars might as well be on Mars as far as such people are concerned.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

The real fight starts now.

There are indeed around 50 Labour MPs who can hold their heads high. The ones who voted against art 50 (and were re-elected in 2017).

The rest, from Corbyn to Chukka, are just an embarrassment.

I'm glad i didn;t vote for them, doomed as my vote was. I don't want to be part of it.

Surely the real fight starts in the autumn when Parliament returns (or whatever it is they do)?

Though I'd prefer a debate to a fight

[Tubby Isaacs]

The real fight starts now.

There are indeed around 50 Labour MPs who can hold their heads high. The ones who voted against art 50 (and were re-elected in 2017).

The rest, from Corbyn to Chukka, are just an embarrassment.

I'm glad i didn;t vote for them, doomed as my vote was. I don't want to be part of it.

I'm rationalizing my vote as a vote for Carwyn Jones, just about. But I should have voted Lib Dem.

Umunna might have turned a corner. We might get a couple of others waiting their time. But it looks pretty awful.

[HindleA]

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... assessment" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Impact assessment for safeguarding of the HS2 Phase 2b route between Crewe and Manchester and the West Midlands and Leeds.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... -phase-one" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

These reports provide an overview of the High Speed Two (HS2) Phase One works in each local authority area.(updated)


https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... ds#history" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


A guide for property schemes available to people affected by the High Speed Two (HS2) railway.

(updated)

[PaulfromYorkshire]

@PaulfromYorkshire

That's why I'm concerned that Labour isn't making more of the prospective dangerous US trade deal possibility. Makes me worry (purely a gut instinct thing) that they don't want to do anything to upset the "Hard Brexit" applecart. So far, their reaction has been disappointing and atypical. If "Brexit" is to come about, I at least had faith that Labour would look out for our welfare (I know the Conservatives won't).

Corbyn will surely oppose any US trade deal of this nature.

But as Anatoly says, there's not much point just saying "I oppose it". It won't change very much.

The advantage once Parliament reconvenes/resplodges/retwiddles is there will be stuff to vote on and May will have a very tough time, including in the Lords.

[AnatolyKasparov]

Ummuna just cares about what he percieves to be best for Umunna. Nothing more, nothing less - always has been that way, always will be.

The sort of deeply alienating professional politician, part of a self-entitled gilded elite, who went a long way towards CAUSING Brexit.

[SpinningHugo]

I'm thinking more of vocifierous "48 per cent" types on social media - "Labour should outright oppose Brexit no matter what the electoral cost" sort of thing.

Inter alia, they often overestimate the extent to which politicians can "lead" supposedly "their" voters to do anything.

Because their view of politics is often very top-down, elitist, and MSM-centred.

Ellie Mae O'Hagan mentioined the other day that she had been to Blackpool (a strong "leave" area) and not one person - of all political persuasions - who voted for Brexit last year regretted that decision. The largely London-based chatterati with EU avatars might as well be on Mars as far as such people are concerned.

The £ has fallen 18%, and real wages are falling significantly.

The reason they don't regret it is, sadly, ignorance, pandered to by people who talk about wholesale immigration of underpaid workers from Eastern Europe destroying jobs (ie lies).

[HindleA]

https://www.parkinsons.org.uk/continuin ... are/report" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Continuing to care report
This report was written by Parkinson's UK in association with the Continuing Healthcare Alliance.

It looks into the current state of NHS continuing healthcare in England and whether it's supporting the people who need it most.


A nightmare to apply for, a struggle to keep — continuing healthcare is a persistent pain

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a-ni ... -5hw86r3xv" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Tubby Isaacs]

I'm thinking more of vocifierous "48 per cent" types on social media - "Labour should outright oppose Brexit no matter what the electoral cost" sort of thing.

Inter alia, they often overestimate the extent to which politicians can "lead" supposedly "their" voters to do anything.

Because their view of politics is often very top-down, elitist, and MSM-centred.

Ellie Mae O'Hagan mentioined the other day that she had been to Blackpool (a strong "leave" area) and not one person - of all political persuasions - who voted for Brexit last year regretted that decision. The largely London-based chatterati with EU avatars might as well be on Mars as far as such people are concerned.

Elites here meaning people who know stuff?

I thought Corbyn had "led" opposition to austerity, and members who were behind him fully "changed the narrative"? He can't be bothered with Brexit, or what?

The MSM were strongly pro-Brexit overall, with the BBC allowing all sorts of Leave nonsense to pass. The "48%" twitter folk aren't getting their energy from the MSM. It's exactly the same as Corbyn supporters, except without the sodding Canary.

Vox pops in Kipperville? I bet Blackpool South MP, Gordon Marsden, who was an academic on Politics and Foreign Relations must feel great every day. He'll think back to when he burnt the midnight oil as he grappled with intractable questions. "One day, I'll be having to pander to ignorance with nonsense about a jobs Brexit, so all this hard work will be worth it!"

[Tubby Isaacs]

Ellie Mae isn't exactly going to be Kavanagh QC in that situation, is she?

[howsillyofme1]

why do you keep mentioning I live in Switzerland Hugo?

i think everyone knows where i live (I am open about it) and PfY knows who I work for too I imagine

As compared to you...who hides behind a cloud of guff

Yes, we do have BBC over here and I can look at what Corbyn says. As Paul said not his finest hour but I can empathise with the difficulty Labour are having over this

I am still interested to know how you will persuade people who voted Leave to stay in the EU or accept a deal which essentially makes us subject to all their rule and payments without any say?

Just shouting 'Single Market' and 'economic disaster" wont really cut it I would suggest.....

I live in a non EU country that participates in the SM to a certain extent....so I can bring a bit of insight

Oh, and noone has even mentioned Schengen yet....how many of you would accept we become part of Schengen (with Ireland of course) as a price for SM access?

Even Switzerland and Norway have that....and I cannot see long term CU/SM membership being sustainsble without it...

I am in favour of the UK being part of the Schengen zone....are all of you the same and would you find it an acceptable price to pay?

[PaulfromYorkshire]

why do you keep mentioning I live in Switzerland Hugo?

i think everyone knows where i live (I am open about it) and PfY knows who I work for too I imagine

As compared to you...who hides behind a cloud of guff

Yes, we do have BBC over here and I can look at what Corbyn says. As Paul said not his finest hour but I can empathise with the difficulty Labour are having over this

I am still interested to know how you will persuade people who voted Leave to stay in the EU or accept a deal which essentially makes us subject to all their rule and payments without any say?

Just shouting 'Single Market' and 'economic disaster" wont really cut it I would suggest.....

I live in a non EU country that participates in the SM to a certain extent....so I can bring a bit of insight

Oh, and noone has even mentioned Schengen yet....how many of you would accept we become part of Schengen (with Ireland of course) as a price for SM access?

Even Switzerland and Norway have that....and I cannot see long term CU/SM membership being sustainsble without it...

I am in favour of the UK being part of the Schengen zone....are all of you the same and would you find it an acceptable price to pay?

Were we not in Schengen for a while?

[PaulfromYorkshire]

why do you keep mentioning I live in Switzerland Hugo?

i think everyone knows where i live (I am open about it) and PfY knows who I work for too I imagine

As compared to you...who hides behind a cloud of guff

Yes, we do have BBC over here and I can look at what Corbyn says. As Paul said not his finest hour but I can empathise with the difficulty Labour are having over this

I am still interested to know how you will persuade people who voted Leave to stay in the EU or accept a deal which essentially makes us subject to all their rule and payments without any say?

Just shouting 'Single Market' and 'economic disaster" wont really cut it I would suggest.....

I live in a non EU country that participates in the SM to a certain extent....so I can bring a bit of insight

Oh, and noone has even mentioned Schengen yet....how many of you would accept we become part of Schengen (with Ireland of course) as a price for SM access?

Even Switzerland and Norway have that....and I cannot see long term CU/SM membership being sustainsble without it...

I am in favour of the UK being part of the Schengen zone....are all of you the same and would you find it an acceptable price to pay?

Were we not in Schengen for a while?

*edited to say no were we weren't - I think I was thinking of the passport free borders...

[Tubby Isaacs]

Caroline Flint seems to be setting the pace on bonehead Brexit. Labour will look like "liars" if it votes down Tory Brexit stuff.

As opposed to lying about "jobs Brexit".

It isn't just Corbyn. And I wouldn't go as far as Hugo in lumping all apart from the 50 rebels together. But God, there are some fools in the PLP.

[howsillyofme1]

oh and still waiting for the ideas on how to actually deliver full SM and CU membership outside the EU and persuade the UK population to accept it.....especially as there will be sizeable minority or even a majoritu who will always be ready to point out that nothing much different was delivered

There are no current deals like the one all here seem to support...EEA does not cut it...and does your Norway option include Schengen?

Sorry for asking this but it should be simple as the Single Market is an organisation where you are a member or not

Perhaps it would actually be better to stop all this reactive posting on every single word said by a party who are focusing more on winning the next GE than current negotiations, of which they are not party

As Paul says there will be votes soon and that is the time for having these debates

[HindleA]

To be fair,sneerings as to place,educational level etc is rife among the "debate".

[Tubby Isaacs]

I think we could keep our Schengen opt out in the Single Market. We'd have to concede other stuff, but if we prioritized it in negotiations, we could get it. The others know that it's a cost to us. It's a win win.

[AngryAsWell]

Charlie Gard's parents end legal fight over critically ill baby
Chris Gard and Connie Yates announce decision as high court judge was preparing to oversee latest round of five-month legal battle

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... y-ill-baby" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Tubby Isaacs]

Charlie Gard's parents end legal fight over critically ill baby
Chris Gard and Connie Yates announce decision as high court judge was preparing to oversee latest round of five-month legal battle

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... y-ill-baby" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That's good news, I think.

Mike Pence and other liars won't stop lying though. I am seriously worried that somebody could get murdered over this.

[howsillyofme1]

well it is part of FoM is Schengen and why would the let us keep the opt out when that was not an option for the Swiss who were dragged kicking and screaming to accept it

Even now thete are plenty here who want to withdraw and why would the EU cause problems for themselves?

Remember you want EU membership levels of SM access so there will be some price to play

You are the ones saying the EU will decide and the six Labour tests are 'stupid' but suddenly we can keep a major opt out

[Tubby Isaacs]

The EU don't want to set a precedent for populists. I don't think the UK keeping its existing opt-out would be that much of a precedent. Maybe French and German Kippers and (at a very big pinch) Italian Kippers could argue they were like the UK and would be able to leave and negotiate a British deal outside Schengen. But other places? No chance. Even a relative heavyweight like Holland is going to be laughed out of town. And when you have much bigger land borders with other EU states than we have, it simply isn't all that plausible to hold up imports and exports like that.

There'll be a price for keeping Schengen to the UK, no doubt about that. But I can't see the EU making it a deal breaker. They'll get us to sign up to all sorts of other stuff we don't like instead.

[SpinningHugo]

why do you keep mentioning I live in Switzerland Hugo?

That would be because you obviously haven't watched the interview with Corbyn that you're defending.

[SpinningHugo]

Caroline Flint seems to be setting the pace on bonehead Brexit. Labour will look like "liars" if it votes down Tory Brexit stuff.

As opposed to lying about "jobs Brexit".

It isn't just Corbyn. And I wouldn't go as far as Hugo in lumping all apart from the 50 rebels together. But God, there are some fools in the PLP.

Flint is utterly hopeless.

Here she is at Policy Exchange extolling the opportunities of Brexit

http://www.carolineflint.org/the_left_a ... y_exchange" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The PLP are basically cowards. It is now pretty clear that for many their opposition to Corbyn wasn't based on the many substantive things wrong with his views and history, but just based on a calculation of his electoral popularity.

Politics as a game, like supporting Man Utd. Pathetic.

[howsillyofme1]

why do you keep mentioning I live in Switzerland Hugo?

That would be because you obviously haven't watched the interview with Corbyn that you're defending.

what does where I live have to do with that?