Tuesday 15 July 2017

[Tubby Isaacs]

The only person I've heard make much of that process is Christopher Booker. I don't think it's all that.

[ephemerid]

It is the issue of the day, dwarfing everything else.

There is another board I know of where more comfortable things are discussed, and where this, the biggest one, is ignored, because uncomfortable.

I have pointed out to you on more than one occasion, you arrogant little squirt, that you don't have to be a plonker all your life.

You can have a day off. Perhaps you should. Have several. Maybe rarely-contributing readers like me would consider joining in again.

Now that you are resorting to outright lies about "another board", along with insults to another much-valued (by me and many others) poster, I think the sooner you take a break (preferably a long one) the less "uncomfortable" this forum will be.

[AnatolyKasparov]

Nine local council byelections last week:

Merton - Labour hold with close to three quarters of the vote in a ward which has duly returned three councillors for them ever since 2002 (though the Tories polled respectably then and were vaguely competitive in 2006) This was just a small swing to them since a previous by-election last year - the Tories were also up since then - but a rather larger one of 7% since the last regular elections in 2014 and over 18% since 2010. LibDems a distant third with nearly 5% - slightly up since last year but down by a similar amount from three years ago, and well down since the last pre-coalition election on GE day 2010 - then the Greens (little changed since last year, their first showing here since 2002) and finally UKIP - in a now famiiar tale, this was their sole showing in this set of elections and their 2.5% was seven points down on last year and a drop of some 17% since they took second here on European election day in 2014.

Rutland - two contests here, the first was a Tory hold in a ward which returned two Independents in 2003 but they subsequently went Tory and were returned unopposed in 2007, as was also the case for the Tories in 2011. A byelection in 2013 saw the Tories ran close by an Indy but two Tories were again returned comfortably in 2015 as LibDems came runners up and UKIP polled respectably (as they had two years earlier) This time it was a straight Tory/LibDem fight and the blues won by more than 2 to 1, taking most of the 18% UKIP had previously polled. The other vacancy was in a single member ward which has had an eventful history this century - Tories won in 2003 in a straight fight with Labour, returned unopposed in 2007, lost the seat to Independents in a 2010 by-election, Indy hold in 2011, LibDems pipping the Tories in a straight fight in a 2014 by-election, trouncing the Tories in 2015 only for yet another by-election last year to make it a close run thing between LibDems and Tories again. So this contest, the *fourth* by-election in less than nine years, saw Independents make a come back with a vengeance as the first of two non-party candidates won with over half the vote - beating the Tories (who dropped markedly since last year) by over 2 to 1. Third place went to the other Independent, whilst the defending LibDems trailed in last with just 8%; it may not be insignificant that theirs was the only "non-local" candidate.

Stockton-on-Tees - Labour hold with just over 40% of the vote, an increase of 5 points since 2015 - though they were ran close by the Tories who improved by double figures. This is still arguably a decent result for the winners, though, given this ward's past history - the first elections on the present boundaries on GE day in 2005 saw the LibDems comfortably take all 3 seats here, which they duly repeated in 2007. Post-coalition the sitting LibDems became Independents and in 2011 the ward split 2Ind/1Lab as the LibDem vote collapsed so completely they did not even stand in 2015 when Labour took all three seats - though with a fairly modest overall share as Indies/UKIP/Tories (in that order) all polled within a few points of each other in the 20-25% range. Tories clearly benefited from UKIP's absence this time, and maybe also from the Independent decline as their share more than halved to 11%. LibDems reappeared but had to be content with 5%, just ahead of the regionalist North East Party in their debut here.

Knowsley - Labour hold in a council which voted a 100% slate for them in every election from 2010 to 2015. Last year's boundary changes put an end to that - though in just one ward, and certainly not this one where Labour duly returned three councillors with nearly three quarters of the vote last year, UKIP coming a token second and Tories third. This time round the opposition changed but not the result - save that Labour increased by double figures to over 86%, or more than 6 in every 7 voting. LibDems just edged out the Greens for second, whatever that might be worth.

Wealden DC - Tory hold with over half the vote in a safe ward which returned two Tories unopposed in 2003 before they easily saw off the LibDems in 2007 and more varied opposition in subsequent elections. There was a double figure drop for them since 2015, however, despite the absence of a UKIP candidate this time - whilst Labour advanced nine points in this not terribly promising territory. LibDems returned after an absence two years ago, and their 18% was not dissimilar to what UKIP had polled then.

Staffordshire Moorlands DC - Labour gain from Tory with 45% of the vote and a double figure swing. Though they have at times been competitive here, in recent years this ward has essentially been a battle between the Tories and various localist slates - three Ratepayers in 2003 were followed by 3 Tories in 2007, confirmed by a previous byelection in 2009. Tories lost two of their seats in 2011 to a rebranded "Moorlands Alliance" and took advantage of GE turnout in 2015 to reverse that to a 2/1 split in their favour, though Labour were not that far behind now either. Which might have been a pointer in retrospect - though the absence of both UKIP and Greens this time, after both had polled double figure shares two years ago, meant that even in defeat the Tories managed a modest share increase. This time an Independent polled around 20%, about the same as the Moorlands All in 2015. LibDems last with under 7%, almost unchanged.

Shepway DC - Tory hold, but they were run close by Labour who emerged from nowhere in this ward that had split 1Con/1UKIP in 2015 which was the first election since radical boundary changes. UKIP's absence from even this seat (a telling sign of the times) meant that the Tories managed to boost their winning score to a still relatively modest 35%, but Labour coming from a poor 4th to finish just a few points behind - an increase of over 20 points - was genuinely striking. Last time round an Independent (an ex-Tory councillor for this area before he fell out with the party) came third, and they augmented that performance with a 10 point increase to 27% now. This was once a LibDem controlled council but they now have no councillors at all, and their performance here confirmed that - once able to elect people in these parts, less than 5% now meant their share was almost halved from even two years ago.

Eden DC - Labour elected their first councillor in this authority since 1999, in a ward that split 1Ind/1Tory in 2015 before the Tory seat - the same one that was up now - was won by the LibDems in a previous byelection last year. Labour have polled decently here at times in the past, but this ward elected Independents - not always opposed - at every election since the council's inception in 1973 until the Tories took a seat in 2011 and confirmed that four years later. Labour's unexpected win in the Cumbria CC division here in May - in contrast to dismal results across much of the county - might have provided an inkling of what was coming, but their winning share then was rather more modest than the 55% they achieved now; meanwhile the Tories were down some 10 points on both their straight fights with the LibDems last year and the Indies in 2015. LibDems absent this time, and the Indie this time round could only manage some 8%. Greens stood here for the first time, but got less than 2% for their pains.

Three contests this week.

[HindleA]

Thankyou,as ever.Appreciate efforts.

[Willow904]

The only person I've heard make much of that process is Christopher Booker. I don't think it's all that.

I wasn't so much interested in the process as how the UK being in the EEA but not EU might change the EEA and its relationship with the EU.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... toms-union

Labour should back the single market. Barry Gardiner is wrong
Heidi Alexander

Alexander makes a point here that I have previously made about how an economy the size of the UK in the single market but outside the EU would most likely alter the status quo somewhat:

Countries in the European Economic Area already participate in the preparation of EU legislation relevant to them. They have a hold-out power, ultimately underpinned by the ability of their sovereign parliaments to reject any proposed EEA legislation. Yes, those EEA countries are comparatively small compared to the EU member states. But were the UK to become a non-EU member of the EEA, the current imbalance in administrative resources that exists between the EU and EEA states would be markedly less acute – in all likelihood, strengthening the hand of the EEA members. I know it’s not perfect, but it’s better than the economic alternative.

It may prove a reason why the EU may not wish to grant the UK a Norway type deal. However, it would be nice to see the UK at least try this route.

Right on coup eh?

Just when we didn't need an Eaglesque Progress type* lurching out of the shadows....

* Alexander not you Willow!

[AnatolyKasparov]

Seriously, there isn't going to be a "coup" over this - if only because it is far too abstruse for most people.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Seriously, there isn't going to be a "coup" over this - if only because it is far too abstruse for most people.

Agreed Anatoly.

But why aren't MPs like Alexander in the media sticking up for Corbyn against Tory lies on student debt and celebrating electoral successes like you?

I still don't trust MPs like Alexander. They are still trying to divide my beloved party. I just want them to go away.

[adam]

The only person I've heard make much of that process is Christopher Booker. I don't think it's all that.

I wasn't so much interested in the process as how the UK being in the EEA but not EU might change the EEA and its relationship with the EU.

I think I've only read one thing talking about this so take this with a pinch of salt but I think the fact that we would be so much 'bigger' than the rest of the EEA combined is one of the reasons why the rest of the EEA don't want us. I wouldn't want us to join a club that I was a member of at the moment given our apparent sense of entitlement over the EU negotiations.

edit - double double

[SpinningHugo]

Seriously, there isn't going to be a "coup" over this - if only because it is far too abstruse for most people.

Agreed Anatoly.

But why aren't MPs like Alexander in the media sticking up for Corbyn against Tory lies on student debt and celebrating electoral successes like you?

I still don't trust MPs like Alexander. They are still trying to divide my beloved party. I just want them to go away.

I agree. They should "go away". They don't belong.

[adam]

Labour has slipped rightwards on immigration. That needs to change

From the newly formed English Labour Network to Jeremy Corbyn’s appearance on Andrew Marr, jingoistic attitudes are being validated, not challenged

David Wearing in the Guardian - who I haven't heard of before but who from a very quick browse seems to be a broad left generally pro-corbyn's- labour writer.

[Tubby Isaacs]

The only person I've heard make much of that process is Christopher Booker. I don't think it's all that.

I wasn't so much interested in the process as how the UK being in the EEA but not EU might change the EEA and its relationship with the EU.

I was sort of replying to your point- if there isn't much clout to it, then the EU might not have all that much worry with it.

[adam]

Seriously, there isn't going to be a "coup" over this - if only because it is far too abstruse for most people.

Agreed Anatoly.

But why aren't MPs like Alexander in the media sticking up for Corbyn against Tory lies on student debt and celebrating electoral successes like you?

I still don't trust MPs like Alexander. They are still trying to divide my beloved party. I just want them to go away.

I agree. They should "go away". They don't belong.

Because Labour needs to keep a flavour of the month membership and not try to be a broad church, even if sometimes an impossibly broad church, otherwise Corbyn and McDonnell wouldn't have been around to take on the leadership of the party having left during the Blair years and set up something else.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Interesting and positive news.

BMW will build the fully electric version of the Mini in the UK, despite previously warning it would make the car overseas because of the uncertainty created by Britain’s departure from the EU.

The electric motors and batteries for the car will be made at BMW plants in Germany and shipped to the UK.

The decision comes after months of lobbying from the UK government. BMW has previously warned that it was considering making the electric Mini on the continent because uncertainty from Brexit was “not helpful when it comes to making long-term business decisions”.

Greg Clark, the business secretary, has been trying to convince carmakers to manufacture electric vehicles in the UK, holding discussions with Peugeot about the company’s Vauxhall plant at Ellesmere Port, as well as with BMW.

He travelled to Munich twice as part of the negotiations that led to BMW’s investment decision, according to two people familiar with the meetings.

Letters setting out assurances that the UK government will do all it can to ensure that carmakers’ British facilities remain competitive after Brexit have been sent to both Nissan and Toyota before their recent investment decisions.

But the UK government has sent no letter of assurances to BMW about its trading conditions after Brexit, according to two people with knowledge of the discussions.
The German carmaker wrote to its workers in the run-up to the referendum, warning that a vote to leave could affect its trading conditions.

“More than half of Minis built and virtually all the engines and components made in the UK are exported to the EU, with over 150,000 new cars and many hundreds of thousands of parts imported from Europe each year,” the letter said.

“Tariff barriers would mean higher costs and higher prices and we cannot assume that the UK would be granted free trade with Europe from outside the EU.”

Greg Clark is sane. Wonder if he's promised Single Market or Customs Union membership, with a wink.

Wouldn't it be funny if the Tories did a U-turn and left Labour marooned as Hard Brexit fantasists?

[Willow904]

Seriously, there isn't going to be a "coup" over this - if only because it is far too abstruse for most people.

Agreed Anatoly.

But why aren't MPs like Alexander in the media sticking up for Corbyn against Tory lies on student debt and celebrating electoral successes like you?

I still don't trust MPs like Alexander. They are still trying to divide my beloved party. I just want them to go away.

I think it reasonable to expect all Labour MPs to stick up for Corbyn over Tory lies. I have defended him myself on twitter over a ludicrous suggestion that he voted in parliament against joining the Common Market in 1975 despite the referendum result!

I do wonder how possible it is for the party not to be divided over Brexit, though. And it's not a Labour only problem. We've had some waves over in the Tory camp too. Alexander's response was in reaction to Gardiner's piece, which seemed to rule out Labour supporting any kind of single market option. Hard to ignore for those who favour a soft Brexit. Waves should have been anticipated as a result of what Corbyn and Gardiner have said, surely.

[SpinningHugo]

Because Labour needs to keep a flavour of the month membership and not try to be a broad church, even if sometimes an impossibly broad church, otherwise Corbyn and McDonnell wouldn't have been around to take on the leadership of the party having left during the Blair years and set up something else.

The party is quite different now. On that I agree with the ultra-Corbynites. The gap between the PLP and the members is caused by the former having got their posts before the party's transformation. And it is transformed. With departures and new arrivals it has little relation to the party pf 2015, let alone 2007 when Blair left. Quite a lot of the PLP find themselves, as I did, in the wrong party. They should leave and support a pro-EU one, like the Greens. Labour will be in the hands of the Campaign group for decades to come. It is all very well saying the moderates should recruit and perform a counter-putsch, but technical economics, and boring wonkery don't really lend themselves to mass movements in that way. The 2017 election killed any prospect they had of regaining control forever.

[HindleA]

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... espondence" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


https://www.gov.uk/government/organisat ... f-meetings" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Correspondence
Jobseeker’s Allowance hardship payments (mental health and homelessness): SSAC correspondence

[adam]

Lots of good points about the situation in scotland with regard to property law.

I said UK and not England didn't I. Apologies.

[Temulkar]

Seriously, there isn't going to be a "coup" over this - if only because it is far too abstruse for most people.

Agreed Anatoly.

But why aren't MPs like Alexander in the media sticking up for Corbyn against Tory lies on student debt and celebrating electoral successes like you?

I still don't trust MPs like Alexander. They are still trying to divide my beloved party. I just want them to go away.

I think it reasonable to expect all Labour MPs to stick up for Corbyn over Tory lies. I have defended him myself on twitter over a ludicrous suggestion that he voted in parliament against joining the Common Market in 1975 despite the referendum result!

I do wonder how possible it is for the party not to be divided over Brexit, though. And it's not a Labour only problem. We've had some waves over in the Tory camp too. Alexander's response was in reaction to Gardiner's piece, which seemed to rule out Labour supporting any kind of single market option. Hard to ignore for those who favour a soft Brexit. Waves should have been anticipated as a result of what Corbyn and Gardiner have said, surely.

A few months ago people like Kinnock and Umanna were channeling UKIP on immigration, now single market access is everything. That simple contradiction alone should demonstrate that it is not Brexit that is the issue, it is any stick to beat the leadership with.

[AngryAsWell]

What is wrong with chlorinated chicken

http://www.beuc.eu/blog/what-is-wrong-w ... d-chicken/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[adam]

Because Labour needs to keep a flavour of the month membership and not try to be a broad church, even if sometimes an impossibly broad church, otherwise Corbyn and McDonnell wouldn't have been around to take on the leadership of the party having left during the Blair years and set up something else.

The party is quite different now. On that I agree with the ultra-Corbynites. The gap between the PLP and the members is caused by the former having got their posts before the party's transformation. And it is transformed. With departures and new arrivals it has little relation to the party pf 2015, let alone 2007 when Blair left. Quite a lot of the PLP find themselves, as I did, in the wrong party. They should leave and support a pro-EU one, like the Greens. Labour will be in the hands of the Campaign group for decades to come. It is all very well saying the moderates should recruit and perform a counter-putsch, but technical economics, and boring wonkery don't really lend themselves to mass movements in that way. The 2017 election killed any prospect they had of regaining control forever.

That kind of fragmentation kills the centre/liberal/alternative/left/whatever in FPTP. I'd be interested in what detail there actually is about MPs being deselected since 2015 - you wouldn't expect to see much happening on a (since disrupted) five year election cycle and I know there has been press talk about battles being lined up but it might be one of those political myths - Labour can't win without Scotland / the LibDems are a good place for concerned labour votes to go as an alternative / left wing labour CLPs deselect hardworking experienced MPs.

[HindleA]

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/cons ... passengers" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Consultation on proposals to protect London–Exeter rail passengers


Proposed fare controls,thought there was some sort of war situation.

[AnatolyKasparov]

Labour has slipped rightwards on immigration. That needs to change

From the newly formed English Labour Network to Jeremy Corbyn’s appearance on Andrew Marr, jingoistic attitudes are being validated, not challenged

David Wearing in the Guardian - who I haven't heard of before but who from a very quick browse seems to be a broad left generally pro-corbyn's- labour writer.

He is indeed generally pro-Corbyn.

Quite a few on the Labour left have taken issue with the weekend comments - albeit with tone as much as substance in some cases.

Still, this will be hard to process for those media "centrists" who continue to portray ALL Corbyn sympathisers without exception as a mindless unreasoning cult.

[SpinningHugo]

Because Labour needs to keep a flavour of the month membership and not try to be a broad church, even if sometimes an impossibly broad church, otherwise Corbyn and McDonnell wouldn't have been around to take on the leadership of the party having left during the Blair years and set up something else.

The party is quite different now. On that I agree with the ultra-Corbynites. The gap between the PLP and the members is caused by the former having got their posts before the party's transformation. And it is transformed. With departures and new arrivals it has little relation to the party pf 2015, let alone 2007 when Blair left. Quite a lot of the PLP find themselves, as I did, in the wrong party. They should leave and support a pro-EU one, like the Greens. Labour will be in the hands of the Campaign group for decades to come. It is all very well saying the moderates should recruit and perform a counter-putsch, but technical economics, and boring wonkery don't really lend themselves to mass movements in that way. The 2017 election killed any prospect they had of regaining control forever.

That kind of fragmentation kills the centre/liberal/alternative/left/whatever in FPTP. I'd be interested in what detail there actually is about MPs being deselected since 2015 - you wouldn't expect to see much happening on a (since disrupted) five year election cycle and I know there has been press talk about battles being lined up but it might be one of those political myths - Labour can't win without Scotland / the LibDems are a good place for concerned labour votes to go as an alternative / left wing labour CLPs deselect hardworking experienced MPs.

I think the Lib Dems are a busted flush because of student fees.

Someone on twitter was speculating about whether Corbyn would be harmed by his (revolting) anti-immigrant remarks, his (falsehood) that you can't be in the single market outside the EU, and the backtracking from "dealing with" past student loan debt. I don't think he will because hardly anybody but political nerds notices. (Anymore than most people know or care about the backstory of opinions of Corbyn and his inner core of McDonnell, Fisher, Milne Murray and Lansman).

People do however notice when governments whack up student fees, so the Lib Dems will never be forgiven.

The destruction of the credibility of the Lib Dems, and their squatting in the centre ground, is one of the things that has facilitated the Bennite takeover of Labour. There isn't much of an alternative for those who oppose the Tories.

But the current status quo won't last forever.

[Tubby Isaacs]

What it tells me is that Heidi Alexander and the other 50 or so rebels were pretty much all saying the same thing before as now, and that they're right.

Come to think of it, Stephen Kinnock is still saying the same nonsense now as a few months ago.

I'll give you Umunna, though he wasn't "channelling UKIP" any more than the current, recently Corbyn-promoted Shadow Trade Secretary. Actually less because he wasn't fussed about paying into the Single Market or the ECJ, just immigration. Nor can I recall him going off on a stupid rant when asked about Freedom of Movement as Corbyn himself did on Sunday.

[adam]

I think the Lib Dems are a busted flush because of student fees.

I don't doubt for a second that this had a very specific effect but the thing that has killed them is that they stopped pretending to be all things to all people and jumped to the right. Until 2010 if you were a Labour voter in a third place constituency then voting Lib Dem seemed to make a lot of sense. Since then, why would you?

[Tubby Isaacs]

Here's some more names of Soft Brexiters.

Catherine West, Daniel Zeichner, Andy Slaughter, Karen Buck, Rupa Huq, Rushanara Ali, Madeleine Moon.

"Bitterites", no doubt.

[AnatolyKasparov]

Interesting and positive news.

BMW will build the fully electric version of the Mini in the UK, despite previously warning it would make the car overseas because of the uncertainty created by Britain’s departure from the EU.

The electric motors and batteries for the car will be made at BMW plants in Germany and shipped to the UK.

The decision comes after months of lobbying from the UK government. BMW has previously warned that it was considering making the electric Mini on the continent because uncertainty from Brexit was “not helpful when it comes to making long-term business decisions”.

Greg Clark, the business secretary, has been trying to convince carmakers to manufacture electric vehicles in the UK, holding discussions with Peugeot about the company’s Vauxhall plant at Ellesmere Port, as well as with BMW.

He travelled to Munich twice as part of the negotiations that led to BMW’s investment decision, according to two people familiar with the meetings.

Letters setting out assurances that the UK government will do all it can to ensure that carmakers’ British facilities remain competitive after Brexit have been sent to both Nissan and Toyota before their recent investment decisions.

But the UK government has sent no letter of assurances to BMW about its trading conditions after Brexit, according to two people with knowledge of the discussions.
The German carmaker wrote to its workers in the run-up to the referendum, warning that a vote to leave could affect its trading conditions.

“More than half of Minis built and virtually all the engines and components made in the UK are exported to the EU, with over 150,000 new cars and many hundreds of thousands of parts imported from Europe each year,” the letter said.

“Tariff barriers would mean higher costs and higher prices and we cannot assume that the UK would be granted free trade with Europe from outside the EU.”

Greg Clark is sane. Wonder if he's promised Single Market or Customs Union membership, with a wink.

Wouldn't it be funny if the Tories did a U-turn and left Labour marooned as Hard Brexit fantasists?

Sorry, this is just a silly delusional fantasy on your part.

For one thing, Labour *would* adapt to this in a flash once the Tories could no longer paint them as "anti-British" for supporting a soft Brexit.

(even Corbyn isn't *that* bothered about it, as I have said before - Tony Benn, a true Brexit believer, picked up on this in the 1990s)

Secondly, there would be the most almighty s***storm within the Tories - many backbench MPs and activists believe in Hard Brexit with close to religious fervour. There would be a reformed UKIP or similar - maybe led by the "returning" Farage - in a flash, and the WALL OF GAMMON would fervently back it.

(and can you *imagine* the response of Murdoch and Dacre?)

Tories could yet be forced into some sort of soft Brexit by the sheer weight of events - if so, Labour should just stand back and watch them eat themselves.

And, in those circumstances, they will

[SpinningHugo]

I think the Lib Dems are a busted flush because of student fees.

I don't doubt for a second that this had a very specific effect but the thing that has killed them is that they stopped pretending to be all things to all people and jumped to the right. Until 2010 if you were a Labour voter in a third place constituency then voting Lib Dem seemed to make a lot of sense. Since then, why would you?

It is the same effect all minor parties have in coalitions in all times and places. They get associated with the bigger partner, and their credibility is stuffed.

It is one of the reasons for the (relative) success of Corbyn. Anti-Tories are left with next to no choice (unless they're *really* bothered by the EU/IRA stuff in which case they vote Green).

[Tubby Isaacs]

I didn't assume "dealing with" student debt was a promise to write debts off. Clumsily phrased policy on the hoof, but it was a snap election. Almost everybody agrees a big chunk will have to written off anyway. Doing that and going further shouldn't be that difficult. Somebody is working on it now, I gather.

[SpinningHugo]

I didn't assume "dealing with" student debt was a promise to write debts off. Clumsily phrased policy on the hoof, but it was a snap election. Almost everybody agrees a big chunk will have to written off anyway. Doing that and going further shouldn't be that difficult. Somebody is working on it now, I gather.

Part of the design of student loans is that a big chunk will never be repaid. The argument that some give that the present system doesn't work because "£X bn will never be repaid" is to misunderstand this. It was always intended that a huge chunk would never be recovered. It is a generous system (or at least was until the recent interest hike which is punitive),

[Willow904]

Agreed Anatoly.

But why aren't MPs like Alexander in the media sticking up for Corbyn against Tory lies on student debt and celebrating electoral successes like you?

I still don't trust MPs like Alexander. They are still trying to divide my beloved party. I just want them to go away.

I think it reasonable to expect all Labour MPs to stick up for Corbyn over Tory lies. I have defended him myself on twitter over a ludicrous suggestion that he voted in parliament against joining the Common Market in 1975 despite the referendum result!

I do wonder how possible it is for the party not to be divided over Brexit, though. And it's not a Labour only problem. We've had some waves over in the Tory camp too. Alexander's response was in reaction to Gardiner's piece, which seemed to rule out Labour supporting any kind of single market option. Hard to ignore for those who favour a soft Brexit. Waves should have been anticipated as a result of what Corbyn and Gardiner have said, surely.

A few months ago people like Kinnock and Umanna were channeling UKIP on immigration, now single market access is everything. That simple contradiction alone should demonstrate that it is not Brexit that is the issue, it is any stick to beat the leadership with.

If Alexander has talked of curbing immigration previously then I agree that's hypocritical. I've always been in support of immigration and freedom of movement myself, so don't feel that criticism is fair in regards to myself. I was unhappy with what Corbyn said on the Marr show. I didn't go looking for reasons to be unhappy with him. There are still a few people left in Labour who do not belong to either Progress or Momentum. We have opinions too.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Interesting and positive news.

BMW will build the fully electric version of the Mini in the UK, despite previously warning it would make the car overseas because of the uncertainty created by Britain’s departure from the EU.

The electric motors and batteries for the car will be made at BMW plants in Germany and shipped to the UK.

The decision comes after months of lobbying from the UK government. BMW has previously warned that it was considering making the electric Mini on the continent because uncertainty from Brexit was “not helpful when it comes to making long-term business decisions”.

Greg Clark, the business secretary, has been trying to convince carmakers to manufacture electric vehicles in the UK, holding discussions with Peugeot about the company’s Vauxhall plant at Ellesmere Port, as well as with BMW.

He travelled to Munich twice as part of the negotiations that led to BMW’s investment decision, according to two people familiar with the meetings.

Letters setting out assurances that the UK government will do all it can to ensure that carmakers’ British facilities remain competitive after Brexit have been sent to both Nissan and Toyota before their recent investment decisions.

But the UK government has sent no letter of assurances to BMW about its trading conditions after Brexit, according to two people with knowledge of the discussions.
The German carmaker wrote to its workers in the run-up to the referendum, warning that a vote to leave could affect its trading conditions.

“More than half of Minis built and virtually all the engines and components made in the UK are exported to the EU, with over 150,000 new cars and many hundreds of thousands of parts imported from Europe each year,” the letter said.

“Tariff barriers would mean higher costs and higher prices and we cannot assume that the UK would be granted free trade with Europe from outside the EU.”

Greg Clark is sane. Wonder if he's promised Single Market or Customs Union membership, with a wink.

Wouldn't it be funny if the Tories did a U-turn and left Labour marooned as Hard Brexit fantasists?

Sorry, this is just a silly delusional fantasy on your part.

For one thing, Labour *would* adapt to this in a flash once the Tories could no longer paint them as "anti-British" for supporting a soft Brexit.

(even Corbyn isn't *that* bothered about it, as I have said before - Tony Benn, a true Brexit believer, picked up on this in the 1990s)

Secondly, there would be the most almighty s***storm within the Tories - many backbench MPs and activists believe in Hard Brexit with close to religious fervour. There would be a reformed UKIP or similar - maybe led by the "returning" Farage - in a flash, and the WALL OF GAMMON would fervently back it.

(and can you *imagine* the response of Murdoch and Dacre?)

Tories could yet be forced into some sort of soft Brexit by the sheer weight of events - if so, Labour should just stand back and watch them eat themselves.

And, in those circumstances, they will

What's your explanation of the Mini decision then? Does that suggest 10% tariffs on car exports, plus a load of fuss importing the parts? How can a UK plant be that much more competitive than an EU one?

Labour could adapt but it would look really bad if it had to reverse the position it had been arguing for after the Tories did.

The Tories would have problems with lots of backbenchers and members, of course.

[SpinningHugo]

A few months ago people like Kinnock and Umanna were channeling UKIP on immigration, now single market access is everything. That simple contradiction alone should demonstrate that it is not Brexit that is the issue, it is any stick to beat the leadership with.

I think we can all agree that Umunna, who voted for art 50 without conditions and called for ending freedom of movement, is nothing but a revolting opportunist in now calling to remain in the single market.

That isn't true of all of the PLP, including Heidi Alexander and a (very) select group of others, such as Mary Creagh. I could vote for one of that group, not for Umunna or Kinnock.

[AnatolyKasparov]

But are "Labour" doing that? There are varying opinions even in the SC.

And isn't it simply a fact, as things stand, that when we exit the EU we will exit the single market as well? Of course I know about Norway, Switzerland et al - but they didn't become SM members "just like that", they had to *negotiate* it. Just as we would presumably have to.....

[tinybgoat]

I'm not convinced that Corbyn's stance on immigration is that different to what they ran with in the election, or to 2015. Interesting that he specifically referenced the construction industry though, either he was talking rubbish, or had some specific point in mind, or was appealing to people who believe that migration is undercutting wages. If freedom of movement isn't a threat to to jobs, would it be possible for EU to make a token amendment to it, to deal with a perceived problem without causing any real restrictions (though can see that his job advertising restrictions wouldn't be acceptable)?

[tinybgoat]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 39194.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Exclusive: Ed Miliband will block cheap foreign staff loophole if Labour wins in 2015"

If Labour wins in 2015, the Government would work with businesses to close a European Union loophole which allows companies to undercut staff legally by paying agency workers lower wages. The loophole has allowed major firms in the food, packaging and call-centre sectors to employ workers, often from abroad, on lower rates. While the loophole is legal, companies who use it have been accused of acting unscrupulously by failing to protect the job security of their staff.

From Labour manifesto
http://www.labour.org.uk/index.php/mani ... al-at-work" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

3. Legislate to ensure that any employer wishing to recruit labour from abroad does not undercut workers at home – because it causes divisions when one workforce is used against another.

We will also scrap the changes brought in by the Conservatives in 2014 to TUPE, which weakened the protections for workers transferring between contractors, and we will abolish the loophole to the agency workers regulations known as the Swedish derogation.

[AnatolyKasparov]

Yes he at least arguably does - as I said upthread, "posted workers".

(any comments on this, Tubs?)

[SpinningHugo]

But are "Labour" doing that? There are varying opinions even in the SC.

And isn't it simply a fact, as things stand, that when we exit the EU we will exit the single market as well? Of course I know about Norway, Switzerland et al - but they didn't become SM members "just like that", they had to *negotiate* it. Just as we would presumably have to.....

RIght, so we negotiate it so that we don't exit the single market.

In reality, it is almost impossible to imagine how we would be leaving the single market once art 50 expires. There will *have * to be a transition period at least where we remain in (thereby refuting Corbyn's proposition).

If not, the consequences will be disastrous.

[SpinningHugo]

I'm not convinced that Corbyn's stance on immigration is that different to what they ran with in the election, or to 2015. Interesting that he specifically referenced the construction industry though, either he was talking rubbish, or had some specific point in mind, or was appealing to people who believe that migration is undercutting wages. If freedom of movement isn't a threat to to jobs, would it be possible for EU to make a token amendment to it, to deal with a perceived problem without causing any real restrictions (though can see that his job advertising restrictions wouldn't be acceptable)?

Maybe he was talking about the Posted Workers Directive. Maybe, though the context doesn't support that.

If that is what he intended, his words were spectacularly ill-chosen. Just straight Ukip.

[HindleA]

https://www.theguardian.com/housing-net ... ds-tenants" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Landlords are turfing people out of their homes without reason - and it's completely legal

[Tubby Isaacs]

Yes he at least arguably does - as I said upthread, "posted workers".

(any comments on this, Tubs?)

Yep. He was asked about Freedom of Movement. Posted Workers (bad, but marginal to most EU immigration for work) wasn't the question.

[HindleA]

https://www.judiciary.gov.uk/judgments/ ... july-2017/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Great Ormond Street Hospital -v- Yates and Gard

[Willow904]

But are "Labour" doing that? There are varying opinions even in the SC.

And isn't it simply a fact, as things stand, that when we exit the EU we will exit the single market as well? Of course I know about Norway, Switzerland et al - but they didn't become SM members "just like that", they had to *negotiate* it. Just as we would presumably have to.....

A good starting point to such negotiations would be a desire on the UK's part to actually have them. The point about what Corbyn said on Marr and what Gardiner said in his article is that they very much seemed to be saying that a Labour government wouldn't seek membership of the single market. If they don't mean that, great. In fact I was hoping that Corbyn might clarify otherwise, but the article against single market membership from Gardiner just seems too hard to misinterpret.

[RogerOThornhill]

What is wrong with chlorinated chicken

http://www.beuc.eu/blog/what-is-wrong-w ... d-chicken/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is from last night...

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[PorFavor]

What is wrong with chlorinated chicken

http://www.beuc.eu/blog/what-is-wrong-w ... d-chicken/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And from the article, getting to the heart of the matter -

Transatlantic trade should not be a pretext for dismantling practices which fortify public safety in Europe.

[AnatolyKasparov]

Well even if that's what they were saying Labour (lest we forget) aren't in government, and by the time the opportunity arises for that to change the question could quite possibly be resolved (at least for the short term) If not, I remain optimistic an incoming Labour government would be sensible and pragmatic about things

[SpinningHugo]

Well even if that's what they were saying Labour (lest we forget) aren't in government, and by the time the opportunity arises for that to change the question could quite possibly be resolved (at least for the short term) If not, I remain optimistic an incoming Labour government would be sensible and pragmatic about things

Yeah. What oppositions say and do doesn't matter, so why worry?

Especially in a hung Parliament

[PorFavor]

Has anyone here heard any more about the people who were unable to vote on General Election day owing to local council cock-ups? I thought the problem had been reported to the Electoral Commission.

[RogerOThornhill]

Government backs 'North London Powerhouse'

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/soci ... 725132762?

The controversial project will bring long-needed investment to neglected areas like Camden and Islington, and will finally provide residents with a transport link to central London.

Transport secretary Chris Grayling said: “With the new rail link, we will open up possibilities to them in Soho and Westminster that were previously impossible without taking the Northern Line.”