Friday 28th July 2017

Post by **refitman** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 7:09 am

Morning all.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 7:13 am

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... ohn-mccain" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Obamacare: US senate votes down 'skinny repeal' of health act after revolt by John McCain
Senators argued late into the night but a partial healthcare repeal was defeated with the maverick Arizona senator proving crucial for the loss

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 7:27 am

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/liv ... e-care-act" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **adam** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 8:47 am

From yesterday

SpinningHugo wrote:(i) You have to distinguish between the distributive effects of giving away this human good, and the financial regressive effect.

Even if abolishing fees wasn't regressive (ie it didn't benefit the richest) it would still be unfair. Giving 3 years of free education away to a select group is distributionally unfair.

Yes, we give, say, expensive cancer treatment to a minority as well. But we do that on the basis of need, not on the basis that you've parents paid for private school and you've got 3 Bs at A level.

(ii) Having a performing loan for 30 years (with interest paid) is good, even if the capital is not repaid. You have to look at the overall effect for the treasury, not whether "X number of students won't repay anything."

Maybe some of the distributional issues could also be addressed by removing charitable status from private schools

There is an interesting argument that turns up about grammar schools, with people saying 'why are you so unhappy with selection at 11 when you have no problem at all with selection at 18?' To which the short answer is 'because eleven isn't eighteen'.

You need to explain this more - I'm not being confrontational here and it may be that I'm the one saying a different version of 'but we have to balance the budget'.

If around 93% of lenders will never repay any capital at all so the treasury pays all of that, and if I were to start with a very ballpark guestimate that the other 7% could be accounted for as the cost of administering this as a loans scheme for 30 years instead of just giving out grants (which might be completely inaccurate but seems a reasonable hypothetical to investigate), and if we chose to build up compound interest at commercial rates for 30 years which also overwhelmingly has to be paid by the treasury and will end up as sum about four times the initial amount loaned (which is a worked out ballpark guestimate rather than just a guess) how is this a financial positive to the treasury instead of paying grants financed by public borrowing at government rates which would only be 10%-20% of the commercial rates?

The problem with this system is, firstly, that interest rates and amounts owed have both ballooned so that suddenly there is no prospect of collecting any capital return at all, ever, from the overwhelming majority of borrowers, nor of them keeping up with the interest due at all, so that it's not just almost all of the capital spend that will always be written off, it's a significant multiple of the capital spend because of 30 years of underpaid interest in the overwhelming majority of cases. And secondly that the public think we are making young people pay for their higher education for sensible economic reasons but also for more general 'entitlement' reasons and I don't believe the public know that it is now inherent in the system that the overwhelming majority will never repay a thing but will actually cost the taxpayer an awful lot of money. We won't have a performing loan with interest paid, we'll have loans with some interest paid but never enough in around 93% of the cases. When 'x' number of students not repaying any capital (and getting multiples of the capital written off as well as unpaid interest accrues) is 93% I find it difficult to believe that the overall effect for the treasury is good, other than in the Osborne sense of kicking a problem several decades down the road.

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 8:48 am

Morning.

Owned Jones (sic).

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Quite why the "legitimate concerns" of leavers and the sanctity of a stupid referendum called by a colossally stupid man outweigh all this when it comes to the word "democracy" - even for some remain voters - I will never, ever know.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 9:14 am

NonOxCol wrote:Morning.

Owned Jones (sic).

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Quite why the "legitimate concerns" of leavers and the sanctity of a stupid referendum called by a colossally stupid man outweigh all this when it comes to the word "democracy" - even for some remain voters - I will never, ever know.

Totally agree.
Brexit is dangerous. The people should be allowed to say so.
Including their MPs.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 9:39 am

Councils ask Treasury to replace lost EU regeneration funds post-Brexit
Local Government Association calls for more certainty to guarantee projects will not lose out when UK leaves EU

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... exit-uk-eu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 9:42 am

NonOxCol wrote:Morning.

Owned Jones (sic).

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Quite why the "legitimate concerns" of leavers and the sanctity of a stupid referendum called by a colossally stupid man outweigh all this when it comes to the word "democracy" - even for some remain voters - I will never, ever know.

Im an historian, and there are so many examples of democracy collapsing when people ignore the results because they believe that the result is bad for democracy. From Athens to the present day. To say MPs should 'overturn the referendum result' is the most stupid blinkered self-centred approach, and the damage that would do to our democracy would be felt for generations. I spend all day every day writing and researching how stubbornness, blinkered entrenched attitudes, a refusal to compromise, and an attempt to subvert our democracy (by both sides) caused a civil war in the UK. We are not immune; it can happen again.

The referendum should never have been called, I agree, it is a clusterfuck called by a colossally ignorant man, I agree. It will be a catastrophe. Yep. However, to overturn the result, now, without a major shift in public opinion (and there really hasn't been one) would have the potential to destroy our democracy, it would certainly destroy the legitimacy of our democratic institutions.

I am not prepared to sacrifice our democratic rule of law to remain in the EU. It is, frankly, not worth it. No trade deal or economic union on the planet - even if it was offering everyone a 20 million bonus - would be worth undermining or destroying our democracy, and that's what the overturners are proposing.

Work to change peoples minds, work to persuade people, because that is how the referendum result can be challenged. If we allow a shabby political deal by our politicians to overturn the result, we really are fucked.

The marketing tagline for my next book (our sept 20th

is: 'Do you think Britian is divided? It's been worse...' It has been worse, and don't think that it can't get that bad again.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 10:12 am

Britain should fight for second Brexit referendum - Malta PM

Brexit may not happen and a political leader in Britain should show courage and fight for a referendum on the terms of the country’s exit deal with the EU, the prime minister of Malta, has said.

Joseph Muscat, who has been on the inside track of the Brexit talks in recent months while Malta has held the rolling presidency of the European council, has spoken of his growing belief that the UK will remain an EU member.

“The will of the people can have disastrous consequences, history teaches us”, Muscat said in an interview with the Dutch newspaper De Volkskrant. “I could name some examples, but they’re so horrendous they’d raise the wrath of my British friends. (Guardian - my emphasis)

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... m-malta-pm

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 10:27 am

Temulkar wrote: The referendum should never have been called, I agree, it is a clusterfuck called by a colossally ignorant man, I agree. It will be a catastrophe. Yep. However, to overturn the result, now, without a major shift in public opinion (and there really hasn't been one) would have the potential to destroy our democracy, it would certainly destroy the legitimacy of our democratic institutions.

I read that twitter thread last night.
My reading of it was that we must be prepared to debate it, not shy away from it for fear of the consequences of the overturning of TWOTP. There never will be a shift in public opinion without debate.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 10:37 am

gilsey wrote:
Temulkar wrote: The referendum should never have been called, I agree, it is a clusterfuck called by a colossally ignorant man, I agree. It will be a catastrophe. Yep. However, to overturn the result, now, without a major shift in public opinion (and there really hasn't been one) would have the potential to destroy our democracy, it would certainly destroy the legitimacy of our democratic institutions.
I read that twitter thread last night.
My reading of it was that we must be prepared to debate it, not shy away from it for fear of the consequences of the overturning of TWOTP. There never will be a shift in public opinion without debate.

It's being debated day in day out everywhere in the country.

At the moment we would lose a referendum again, and no government calling for a 2nd ref or asking for a mandate to overturn the ref would be elected.

Frankly, the remainiacs are their own worst enemies. They are not persuading anyone at the moment, quite the opposite from where I sit. The nationn is divided almost equally down the middle. There has been no political crisis in Britain since the civil war when that situation has happened. An equal division in public opinion is dangerous, entrenched attitudes are dangerous. Look at Ukraine, look at Syria.

What happens is another referendum is called and we lose again, by a similar margin? What if we win by a similar margin? It would unleash chaos, bitterness and violence. We've already seen one MP killed, we have seen the bile and anger on both sides, you think another referendum will solve that? It would merely blow it up further.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 10:38 am

we must be prepared to listen, debate and persuade....and let people make their minds up

This is what Tem says in his post

What I suggest we do not do is tell people they were 'wrongg' or 'stupid' or give the impression that Remainers should turn over the result without taking the people with them

Shouting about technical aspects (especially Thatcherite ones) is not the way to do this I suggest

Some of the posters on here turn me off and I am a convinced Remainer....imagine how it will appeal to others

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 10:44 am

Temulkar wrote: It's being debated day in day out everywhere in the country.

At the moment we would lose a referendum again, and no government calling for a 2nd ref or asking for a mandate to overturn the ref would be elected.

I agree with you almost entirely and I don't actually believe that brexit is necessarily catastrophic.
I just don't want debate to be stifled, let's go on talking.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 10:49 am

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new- ... investment" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

News story
New station boost for passengers thanks to £16 million government investment

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 10:52 am

I'll just add that imo there should be a lot less talk about economics, which as we know worked really well before the referendum, and a lot more about the United Kingdom and how to keep it that way.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 10:53 am

gilsey wrote:
Temulkar wrote: It's being debated day in day out everywhere in the country.

At the moment we would lose a referendum again, and no government calling for a 2nd ref or asking for a mandate to overturn the ref would be elected.
I agree with you almost entirely and I don't actually believe that brexit is necessarily catastrophic.
I just don't want debate to be stifled, let's go on talking.

Yeah, fine, but it's events and circumstance that will change people's minds, not calling them racist morons who voted for lies. The haranguing by some remainers is counter-productive. Tony Blair is a prime example, every time he pops up to say remain it turns people away. The people in politics most vociferous about remaining are among the most despised and distrusted individuals in the country.

And actually, I do think it will be catastrophic, but it is the looming reality of that catastrophe that will change people's minds, and we are a long way from that.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 10:56 am

IHT stats

https://www.gov.uk/government/collectio ... statistics" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 11:00 am

Home Office’s lack of action on post-Brexit Border ‘is shocking’
British department under fire after admitting it has not consulted experts on the issue

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politic ... 9?mode=amp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 11:01 am

'It’s social cleansing': the 93-year-old fighting east London demolitions

In Whitechapel, residents say their campaign against the possible bulldozing of their council homes is a battle over the future of housing (Guardian)

I found that an interesting, informative, and distressing read.

https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2017 ... emolitions

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 11:03 am

For me, a warning flag is anybody who talks airily about "the 48%". There is, to all intents and purposes, NO SUCH THING.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 11:18 am

HindleA wrote:IHT stats

https://www.gov.uk/government/collectio ... statistics" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

After a quick glance, I'd say Table 12.3 is the most interesting one since it gives numbers of estates and how many had nil assessment etc.

Looking at the data I'd put money on the reason for the numbers being assessed going being due to property inflation; which, despite some idiotic American's view I say the other day, isn't taxed already.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 11:25 am

Dan Hannan in "yet another false statement" non-shocker.

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Hannan might well be the most dishonest politician out there right now.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 11:27 am

England Lost: Mick Jagger releases Brexit-inspired solo songs
Rolling Stones singer says England Lost reflects country’s ‘vulnerability’ while Gotta Get a Grip bemoans fake news and politics led by ‘lunatics’

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2017/ ... get-a-grip" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 11:33 am

That's the same Jagger who has often voted Tory in recent years? Ah well.......

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 11:45 am

howsillyofme1 wrote:
What I suggest we do not do is tell people they were 'wrongg' or 'stupid' or give the impression that Remainers should turn over the result without taking the people with them

Totally agree with this bit.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 11:49 am

David Lammy‏Verified account
@DavidLammy

My colleague @stellacreasy asks questions about why so few women are called to give evidence to Select Committees and this is the response..

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 12:00 pm

I now know my house number by the way it is on the front door,in my defence I nearly always use the back to inform Tarquin to commence/stand down from security duties.

I also recognise the back way,not unknown to try and gain front door entry to a nearby property merely thinking the house looks a bit different,for some reason.

Everyday is a learning experience.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 12:07 pm

The dilemma here is that Brexiters, whether open ones of the right like Hannan, or closet ones of the left like, well you know, *are* wrong and stupid.

This can be put in more or less polite terms, but there we are.

People on this board aren't, in the main, Brexit supporters. You do get "Labour right or wrong" attitudes, so that some will back or defend the leadership's Lexiteer statements when they would mock them from Johnson or David Davis. You also get some (very vague) statements about how the EU is capitalist or something, without any concrete proposals to amend it. But that is it.

So, who is it who is capable of being persuaded with sugar instead of vinegar that we are supposed to be self censoring for?

Leaving the single market and the customs union, as Labour's shadow trade minister was arguing for in print this week, is seriously dumb. Saying that you can't stay in the single market save within the EU is, at its lowest, stupid.

There is no point sugaring this.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 12:08 pm

Always preferred the other "Glimmer twin"not least because he looks like me on a good day.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 12:10 pm

Is that another sighting of the "ramming it down our throats" canard? Like the gays before, "Remainiacs" apparently just need to shut up, and all works out for the best.

We aren't "our own worst enemies", no. Enemies are people going along with Hard Brexit. It's not "overturning" the referendum to support Soft Brexit. And even people who do want it stopped are doing a brave and valuable job in keeping the option live. Have you any idea of the scumfuckery that comes the way of people who are doing that?

Nobody is saying hold a second referendum now.

To add re Corbyn- I welcome clarification on keeping options open though he's had bad moments. The main problem will be Labour MPs. Stephen Bush quotes one saying he doesn't care what the evidence says, he's sure immigration lowered wages.

In that context, nobody should shut up because "democracy".

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 12:12 pm

See, would the options even be being kept open without Labour MPs and members saying they must be?

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 12:15 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:Dan Hannan in "yet another false statement" non-shocker.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hannan might well be the most dishonest politician out there right now.

Charles Tannock is very good.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 12:30 pm

But the truth is that "remainiacs" are often their own worst enemy. If I see one more facile comparison with last year's referendum and capital punishment, or gay rights, or even the poll tax, I am going to............well, sigh and tut very loudly anyway

If we had a referendum on any of those things and it delivered the "wrong" result, then yes things would be very bad. But the only guaranteed safeguard against that is - NOT HAVING A REFERENDUM. Thanks to Hamface and his widely applauded "political brilliance" we did have one on Brexit, and here we are.

It can't just be wished away.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 12:30 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:Is that another sighting of the "ramming it down our throats" canard? Like the gays before, "Remainiacs" apparently just need to shut up, and all works out for the best.

We aren't "our own worst enemies", no. Enemies are people going along with Hard Brexit. It's not "overturning" the referendum to support Soft Brexit. And even people who do want it stopped are doing a brave and valuable job in keeping the option live. Have you any idea of the scumfuckery that comes the way of people who are doing that?

Nobody is saying hold a second referendum now.

To add re Corbyn- I welcome clarification on keeping options open though he's had bad moments. The main problem will be Labour MPs. Stephen Bush quotes one saying he doesn't care what the evidence says, he's sure immigration lowered wages.

In that context, nobody should shut up because "democracy".

You keep making the same references to the gay rights movement, despite the fact it has been pointed out to you that I find it insulting and offensive. That is not trying to persuade, or discuss, that is trying to insult and attack, however snide and pathetic that attack is. You have proven yourself a liar on here many times before (sometimes even in the same thread), and this post is a perfect example of your duplicity and deciet. You dress up a snide insult as a reasonable comment in defence of your position. That is the attitude that is driving people away, both from here and from your political position.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 12:35 pm

Eh I just saw if you seek to persuade people it may be a good idea not to dismiss as irrelevant, keep screaming names,questioning their intelligence carte blanche stereotypical categorisations etc This can be generally applied surely?We actually lost our most contributive(still) poster here and missed and distinctly not unintelligent ,and therefore a voice,by those very "tactics".Who could blame her repeated requests by her and others were simply ignored.Further,regardless of view it puts people off even discussing it,if that is the tone used,as Paul keeps reiterating for the vast majority it doesn't subsume their every waking minute and not so clear to them and I have to say it is my experience any discussion I have heard is very much of I am sick of hearing/I wish they would get on with it kind,regardless of which way voted or indeed if they didn't vote.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 12:39 pm

I always think using coherent sentences is a good way of persuading someone with an argument.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 12:42 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:I always think using coherent sentences is a good way of persuading someone with an argument.

Thank you for this highly relevant and constructive contribution. Is that "coherent" enough for you??

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 12:44 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:I always think using coherent sentences is a good way of persuading someone with an argument.

Obviously with Hugo, he is only here to be snide and sow division, and this post exemplifies that point.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 12:47 pm

From the man who brought you an example of logical impossibility,evidential hypocrisy and multiple layers of dimwittery in less than a sentence.I was actually impressed,even I would find that hard.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 1:13 pm

Temulkar wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:I always think using coherent sentences is a good way of persuading someone with an argument.
Obviously with Hugo, he is only here to be snide and sow division, and this post exemplifies that point.

While providing material for the more tedious of our onlookers - who clearly have nothing better to do with their time - to jeer at on that Twitter.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 1:13 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/ ... on-burnton" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The forgotten story of … Fred Spiksley, wing wizard, film star and POW escapee

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 1:17 pm

Temulkar wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:Is that another sighting of the "ramming it down our throats" canard? Like the gays before, "Remainiacs" apparently just need to shut up, and all works out for the best.

We aren't "our own worst enemies", no. Enemies are people going along with Hard Brexit. It's not "overturning" the referendum to support Soft Brexit. And even people who do want it stopped are doing a brave and valuable job in keeping the option live. Have you any idea of the scumfuckery that comes the way of people who are doing that?

Nobody is saying hold a second referendum now.

To add re Corbyn- I welcome clarification on keeping options open though he's had bad moments. The main problem will be Labour MPs. Stephen Bush quotes one saying he doesn't care what the evidence says, he's sure immigration lowered wages.

In that context, nobody should shut up because "democracy".
You keep making the same references to the gay rights movement, despite the fact it has been pointed out to you that I find it insulting and offensive. That is not trying to persuade, or discuss, that is trying to insult and attack, however snide and pathetic that attack is. You have proven yourself a liar on here many times before (sometimes even in the same thread), and this post is a perfect example of your duplicity and deciet. You dress up a snide insult as a reasonable comment in defence of your position. That is the attitude that is driving people away, both from here and from your political position.

That's trying to persuade is it?

Here's one for you. The board had a big split, a load of people went off to start another board. You know what my role in it was? Nothing. Literally nothing. I'd long been absent. So people leaving the board en masse... was very obviously nothing to do with me. I'm probably not flavour of the month on the other board, I understand that. But I got on well enough with virtually all of them when we were on the board together. So no reason they should feel they've be "driven away" by me. Maybe it's because another poster kept going back there and telling them how awful I was. I got an apology out of him for that, I recall, and fair play to him for that.

Here's another one for you. If you find my comparison to gay rights "offensive" (I hadn't seen your post saying that), you're misunderstanding it. The point isn't to say EU membership is like gay rights. It's to say that "Remainiacs" are being told they should shut up, and not call out fools and bigots where appropriate, and people pandering to them. And no, though I wish Corbyn were stronger on the issue and has made some mistakes, I don't put him in that category provided he keeps options open, as he now seems to be.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 1:27 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:But the truth is that "remainiacs" are often their own worst enemy. If I see one more facile comparison with last year's referendum and capital punishment, or gay rights, or even the poll tax, I am going to............well, sigh and tut very loudly anyway

If we had a referendum on any of those things and it delivered the "wrong" result, then yes things would be very bad. But the only guaranteed safeguard against that is - NOT HAVING A REFERENDUM. Thanks to Hamface and his widely applauded "political brilliance" we did have one on Brexit, and here we are.

It can't just be wished away.

I wasn't comparing EU membership to gay rights, as it happens. Just the attitude to people campaigning for them.

You get some silly things said by Remainiacs, sure. AC Grayling is top of the tree at the moment for saying Brexit had "no democratic legitimacy"- that involves wishing away the General Election too.

But more than other groups? I don't think so. I think they're an important and necessary part of the politics of the issue. I'd love to stay in the EU, but I'd settle for EEA membership. I reckon we're more likely to get there if lots of people think we ought never to have left in the first place, and EEA is a sort of middle compromise. So we need people making the running strongly for staying in unchanged.

And I think the Remainiacs are doing an important job in attacking referenda. Apart from referenda on voting systems, I don't want to see any more of them.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 1:42 pm

I have to say that Twitter is a great innovation capable of being used for the rapid dissemination of information but feel that using it to repeatedly accuse someone - without evidence of course - of creating a fake account on this forum which was used twice and then never again, might well be the most pointless exercise ever.

Good grief...

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 1:44 pm

In other more personal news, my other half might well be home this afternoon - just awaiting a phone call.

Preliminary diagnosis - probably needs an op. A woman's thing...

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 1:52 pm

Ah o.k,get the vacuum cleaner out,do the dishes get the kettle on etc.Thanks for update.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 1:54 pm

Meanwhile, Paul Flynn has it in his head from somewhere (he's not said where) that Hammond & Rudd are plotting a 2nd referendum

Paul Flynn‏Verified account
@PaulFlynnMP

Civil war ahead! Tories deep Brexit schism exposed as Hammond & Rudd plan for second referendum. Big lump of sago about to hit several fans

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Or is he just stirring the plot....

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 1:57 pm

The answer to that concluding query is "probably, but its not completely implausible either".

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 1:58 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
Temulkar wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:Is that another sighting of the "ramming it down our throats" canard? Like the gays before, "Remainiacs" apparently just need to shut up, and all works out for the best.

We aren't "our own worst enemies", no. Enemies are people going along with Hard Brexit. It's not "overturning" the referendum to support Soft Brexit. And even people who do want it stopped are doing a brave and valuable job in keeping the option live. Have you any idea of the scumfuckery that comes the way of people who are doing that?

Nobody is saying hold a second referendum now.

To add re Corbyn- I welcome clarification on keeping options open though he's had bad moments. The main problem will be Labour MPs. Stephen Bush quotes one saying he doesn't care what the evidence says, he's sure immigration lowered wages.

In that context, nobody should shut up because "democracy".
You keep making the same references to the gay rights movement, despite the fact it has been pointed out to you that I find it insulting and offensive. That is not trying to persuade, or discuss, that is trying to insult and attack, however snide and pathetic that attack is. You have proven yourself a liar on here many times before (sometimes even in the same thread), and this post is a perfect example of your duplicity and deciet. You dress up a snide insult as a reasonable comment in defence of your position. That is the attitude that is driving people away, both from here and from your political position.
That's trying to persuade is it?

Here's one for you. The board had a big split, a load of people went off to start another board. You know what my role in it was? Nothing. Literally nothing. I'd long been absent. So people leaving the board en masse... was very obviously nothing to do with me. I'm probably not flavour of the month on the other board, I understand that. But I got on well enough with virtually all of them when we were on the board together. So no reason they should feel they've be "driven away" by me. Maybe it's because another poster kept going back there and telling them how awful I was. I got an apology out of him for that, I recall, and fair play to him for that.

Here's another one for you. If you find my comparison to gay rights "offensive" (I hadn't seen your post saying that), you're misunderstanding it. The point isn't to say EU membership is like gay rights. It's to say that "Remainiacs" are being told they should shut up, and not call out fools and bigots where appropriate, and people pandering to them. And no, though I wish Corbyn were stronger on the issue and has made some mistakes, I don't put him in that category provided he keeps options open, as he now seems to be.

I suggest you talk to some of the people who left, before claiming you had nothing to do with it. And since my post was almost directly under the last time you made the comparison, and given your history of deceit, forgive me if I find it barely credulous that you missed it. Even if you did, it demonstrates how you don't take any note of opinions counter to yours.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 1:58 pm

"Generally applied "seems to have been specifically interpretated.

Not that I am completely immune.

You are all a shower of thick shits,you should be agreeing with me on everything.Bastards.

To be fair,it is generally applied,not sure as to how persuasive.