Friday 28th July 2017

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 2:00 pm

There's an interesting point in here...

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...in that whereas there were many who thought that Brexit would be the start of a few other countries thinking about doing the same and going forward with a referendum, the longer our political establishment fumbles around, the less likely it is that it will happen elsewhere.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 2:03 pm

HindleA wrote:"Generally applied "seems to have been specifically interpretated.

Not that I am completely immune.

You are all a shower of thick shits,you should be agreeing with me on everything.Bastards.

To be fair,it is generally applied,not sure as to how persuasive.

Personally I don't mind disagreement and love debate. Disagreement is fine, snide innuendo and outright lies are not.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 2:04 pm

HindleA wrote:Ah o.k,get the vacuum cleaner out,do the dishes get the kettle on etc.Thanks for update.

First batch of washing all dry but looks like rain so holding off putting the second batch out.

And I am on ironing duty again this weekend...

Domestic update over and out.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 2:06 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:
HindleA wrote:Ah o.k,get the vacuum cleaner out,do the dishes get the kettle on etc.Thanks for update.
First batch of washing all dry but looks like rain so holding off putting the second batch out.

And I am on ironing duty again this weekend...

Domestic update over and out.

Roger roger, Roger.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 2:08 pm

I made a comment regarding capital punishment.
And have added I don't find the situation we are in currently remotely democratic.
I stand by both, facile or otherwise.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 2:10 pm

Temulkar wrote: I suggest you talk to some of the people who left, before claiming you had nothing to do with it. And since my post was almost directly under the last time you made the comparison, and given your history of deceit, forgive me if I find it barely credulous that you missed it. Even if you did, it demonstrates how you don't take any note of opinions counter to yours.

Ha ha ha ha ha.

Me missing something demonstrates I don't take any notice of it?

And you mean "credible", not "credulous".

I'd been long gone when the board split. That's a fact. You can't get away from that.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 2:12 pm

Temulkar wrote:
HindleA wrote:"Generally applied "seems to have been specifically interpretated.

Not that I am completely immune.

You are all a shower of thick shits,you should be agreeing with me on everything.Bastards.

To be fair,it is generally applied,not sure as to how persuasive.
Personally I don't mind disagreement and love debate. Disagreement is fine, snide innuendo and outright lies are not.

We keep hearing about all these "outright lies". Where are they on here today? Who's told them?

And you calling me "a proven liar" doesn't count as me having told a lie.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 2:13 pm

tc2

You may not find it democratic how we got here but actually, as democracy passes in UK, it is about as good as it gets

The question I would ask is how do you get out of this in a democratic way - and importantly is perceived to be so by the electorate

I too find some of the analogies distasteful, especially in the way Tubby makes them

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 2:15 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:I made a comment regarding capital punishment.
And have added I don't find the situation we are in currently remotely democratic.
I stand by both, facile or otherwise.

I was referring to prominent "remainers" on social media, rather than anybody on here. But such comparisons *should* be made with caution IMO.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 2:16 pm

@Tem O.K but sometimes people don't look at the actual words but who says them if you know what I mean.It wasn't directed at any particular individual.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 2:17 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:There's an interesting point in here...

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...in that whereas there were many who thought that Brexit would be the start of a few other countries thinking about doing the same and going forward with a referendum, the longer our political establishment fumbles around, the less likely it is that it will happen elsewhere.

Yep. We (and probably more so, Trump) coincided with a flight from from populism in a few places. But Poland remains an exception, though in fairness to their government, they've had some success with collecting extra tax and that will have earned them credibility.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 2:20 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
Temulkar wrote: I suggest you talk to some of the people who left, before claiming you had nothing to do with it. And since my post was almost directly under the last time you made the comparison, and given your history of deceit, forgive me if I find it barely credulous that you missed it. Even if you did, it demonstrates how you don't take any note of opinions counter to yours.
Ha ha ha ha ha.

Me missing something demonstrates I don't take any notice of it?

And you mean "credible", not "credulous".

I'd been long gone when the board split. That's a fact. You can't get away from that.

As I said, ask some of the people who left and stay away. You offended people over anti-semitism smears, for starters, or did you conveniently forget that? Maybe if you didn't have a history of lying on this board I would find you more believable. However, you have lied, more than once, and that calls into question every claim you make.

And hey, even professional writers can make vocab mistakes posting quickly on a board.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 2:22 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
Temulkar wrote:
HindleA wrote:"Generally applied "seems to have been specifically interpretated.

Not that I am completely immune.

You are all a shower of thick shits,you should be agreeing with me on everything.Bastards.

To be fair,it is generally applied,not sure as to how persuasive.
Personally I don't mind disagreement and love debate. Disagreement is fine, snide innuendo and outright lies are not.
We keep hearing about all these "outright lies". Where are they on here today? Who's told them?

And you calling me "a proven liar" doesn't count as me having told a lie.

Shall I dig them out, the dates and threads? I have done it before, I am happy to do it again. The last time I made sure to copy the comments into the thread, after your deletions.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 2:23 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:I made a comment regarding capital punishment.
And have added I don't find the situation we are in currently remotely democratic.
I stand by both, facile or otherwise.
I was referring to prominent "remainers" on social media, rather than anybody on here. But such comparisons *should* be made with caution IMO.

Prominent Remainers on Twitter largely engage with people strongly involved with Brexit politics, and I'd suggest they're aiming that comparison at people like Owen Jones who they see as persuadable. Caroline Lucas would think the capital punishment comparison was OK, I should think. Is there much difference between her and Owen really?

Sure, you can take communications out of their context and make them sound stupid. I haven't seen the Momentum ad that's being talked about, but it sounds like it's one for rallying the base. Fair enough, really, but it doesn't sound like it was likely to persuade Tories.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 2:26 pm

Temulkar wrote:
Shall I dig them out, the dates and threads? I have done it before, I am happy to do it again. The last time I made sure to copy the comments into the thread, after your deletions.

What lies has anybody told today? You've been all unpleasant here and just said you don't mind debate, it's just "snide innuendo" and lies. I want some examples of lies, please.

I'm now being accused of dishonest deleting, am I? Good Lord.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 2:29 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
Temulkar wrote:
Shall I dig them out, the dates and threads? I have done it before, I am happy to do it again. The last time I made sure to copy the comments into the thread, after your deletions.
What lies has anybody told today? You've been all unpleasant here and just said you don't mind debate, it's just "snide innuendo" and lies. I want some examples of lies, please.

I'm now being accused of dishonest deleting, am I? Good Lord.

Yes, and you know that is true. I was just about to say that today its only been snide innuendo, but with that post you have lied.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 2:30 pm

it is not just comparisons it is tha arrogant and 'I am right, you are all wrong' tone that undermines your argument

I find you and Hugos posts insulting, negative and arrogant...if I find that then what do others think if they see similar things elsewhere?

Both of you seem to impress one another so don't let me get in the way of you mutual appreciation

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 2:32 pm

And that's only if I accept that you 'didnt see' my previous complaint about your gay rights comment.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 2:33 pm

Temulkar wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
Temulkar wrote:
Shall I dig them out, the dates and threads? I have done it before, I am happy to do it again. The last time I made sure to copy the comments into the thread, after your deletions.
What lies has anybody told today? You've been all unpleasant here and just said you don't mind debate, it's just "snide innuendo" and lies. I want some examples of lies, please.

I'm now being accused of dishonest deleting, am I? Good Lord.
Yes, and you know that is true. I was just about to say that today its only been snide innuendo, but with that post you have lied.

No, I don't "know" that.

Write so it's "snide innuendo" today, is it?

Where?

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 2:35 pm

It's right, not write...

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 2:36 pm

"Is that another sighting of the "ramming it down our throats" canard? Like the gays before"

What do you think that comment is, if not snide and offensive?

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 2:36 pm

Temulkar wrote:And that's only if I accept that you 'didnt see' my previous complaint about your gay rights comment.

I didn't.

But I have explained the comparison now? Do you see why I made the comparison? It's the first example that came to mind where people strongly campaigning for something they believe is right and important being told they're part of the problem.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 2:37 pm

Temulkar wrote:"Is that another sighting of the "ramming it down our throats" canard? Like the gays before"

What do you think that comment is, if not snide and offensive?

Been explained to you. It's a very well known example of what I'm talking about.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 2:38 pm

Temulkar wrote:It's right, not write...

I'd edit but you'd probably accuse me of dishonest editing.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 2:39 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
Temulkar wrote:"Is that another sighting of the "ramming it down our throats" canard? Like the gays before"

What do you think that comment is, if not snide and offensive?
Been explained to you. It's a very well known example of what I'm talking about.

It was snide and offensive when you first made the comment, it is still snide and offensive regardless of whether you have seen my previous complaint or not.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 2:43 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:it is not just comparisons it is tha arrogant and 'I am right, you are all wrong' tone that undermines your argument

I find you and Hugos posts insulting, negative and arrogant...if I find that then what do others think if they see similar things elsewhere?

Both of you seem to impress one another so don't let me get in the way of you mutual appreciation

I don't see Hugo as a particularly close soulmate actually. I've never exchanged a PM or a Tweet with him.

There are plenty of others who I feel much closer too, and have exchanged messages with, and met off board. I'd be surprised if you regarded any of them as beyond the pale.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 2:43 pm

If I believe in the same outcome as you and I find your methods counterproductive I will say so

It is similar to yours and TE approach to Labour before the election - attacking the leader and trying to get him replaced because he would end up losing lots of seats and votes at an election.

I thought that approach was wrong

I also think this strident and arrogant way of approaching Brexit is wring too....and that is only emphasised by Hugo supporting this stance too

Noone is telling you to stop saying what you want but there are other equally valid points of view....it is just you never accept or listen to them

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 2:44 pm

What's offensive about it?

What, I'm accusing you of being homophobic, or something?

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 2:49 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:What's offensive about it?

What, I'm accusing you of being homophobic, or something?

A slur to equate those who don't agree with your pov with those who opposed the gay rights movement. It is grossly offensive, both to those who fought against section 28 etc, and to those who disagree with you. IT is not a clever comparison or analogy, it's insulting and snide.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 2:49 pm

I like the debate, but - whether I agree with what he says or not - can say that Temulkar's style of engagement spoils this board for me.I Why are we subject to these same tedious attacks on posters over and over again? Is it not possible to disagree with someone and be civil about it?

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 2:53 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:I like the debate, but - whether I agree with what he says or not - can say that Temulkar's style of engagement spoils this board for me.I Why are we subject to these same tedious attacks on posters over and over again? Is it not possible to disagree with someone and be civil about it?

I'm all for civility tc, that involves honest debate. We have one poster on here who sets out to derail honest debate every day, and others who are so convinced that they are right that they will misrepresent, smear, and lie. That's why people left.

If my style offends, for that I apologise.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 2:54 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:If I believe in the same outcome as you and I find your methods counterproductive I will say so

It is similar to you and TE approach to Labour before the election - attacking the leader and trying to get him replaced because he would end up loding lots of seats and votes at an election.

I thought that approach was wrong

I also think this strident and arrogant way of approaching Brexit is wring too....and that is only emphasised by Hugo supporting this stance too

Noone is telling you to stop saying what you want but there are other equally valid points of view....it is just you never accept or listen to them

Len McCluskey said Corbyn would do well to get 200 seats. So, it wasn't just people like me, or Westminster villagers taking a pop. Labour had appalling local elections.

He then did well in the election, and fair enough. But against a Tory leader who visibly squirmed when asked questions and had to be hidden from them very obviously, who (completely without precedent) launched a very controversial policy in the middle of the campaign, and put no costings in her manifesto. Not just her, Sturgeon had a disaster and so did Farron.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 2:54 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:I like the debate, but - whether I agree with what he says or not - can say that Temulkar's style of engagement spoils this board for me.I Why are we subject to these same tedious attacks on posters over and over again? Is it not possible to disagree with someone and be civil about it?

Appreciate that, thanks.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 2:59 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:I like the debate, but - whether I agree with what he says or not - can say that Temulkar's style of engagement spoils this board for me.I Why are we subject to these same tedious attacks on posters over and over again? Is it not possible to disagree with someone and be civil about it?

I agree with you TC, it spoils the board for me as well. Some great debates over last few day, and now back to personal attacks - Why?

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 3:01 pm

So other people were wrong too...althoygh I think your example is a pretty poor one

I dont remember MCluskey coming on here and ranting against though of us who supported Corbyn throughout the coup period

You approach is now the same against those who fo follow you exact approach to preventing Brexit

I believe your approach is just as wrong now as it was then

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 3:02 pm

lots of personal attacks in the past too if we look back but not commented on.....

Tubby called me an anti-semite (apart from AK) but noone commented then...and of course there was all the cult stuff too

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 3:03 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:If I believe in the same outcome as you and I find your methods counterproductive I will say so

It is similar to you and TE approach to Labour before the election - attacking the leader and trying to get him replaced because he would end up loding lots of seats and votes at an election.

I thought that approach was wrong

I also think this strident and arrogant way of approaching Brexit is wring too....and that is only emphasised by Hugo supporting this stance too

Noone is telling you to stop saying what you want but there are other equally valid points of view....it is just you never accept or listen to them
Len McCluskey said Corbyn would do well to get 200 seats. So, it wasn't just people like me, or Westminster villagers taking a pop. Labour had appalling local elections.

He then did well in the election, and fair enough. But against a Tory leader who visibly squirmed when asked questions and had to be hidden from them very obviously, who (completely without precedent) launched a very controversial policy in the middle of the campaign, and put no costings in her manifesto. Not just her, Sturgeon had a disaster and so did Farron.

Come on Tubby, there was no need for the "but... "

The feedback from the doorstep as soon as the manifesto was launched was extremely positive. Labour massively increased their percentage. Labour, the party, not Corbyn the president.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 3:06 pm

sorry for typos....using a small phone keyboard and with autocorrect

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 3:06 pm

Temulkar wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:What's offensive about it?

What, I'm accusing you of being homophobic, or something?
A slur to equate those who don't agree with your pov with those who opposed the gay rights movement. It is grossly offensive, both to those who fought against section 28 etc, and to those who disagree with you. IT is not a clever comparison or analogy, it's insulting and snide.

I didn't do that, did I? Nor was the point agreeing or disagreeing with me. It was that in each case it was said that they should stop arguing strongly for what they believe, because they were putting people off. I strongly reject that.

I've no doubt that you were pro-gay rights. Why would I make out that you were? Oh right, I'm a devious liar. But I don't think I'm stupid, and I know that I wouldn't persuade anybody here you were a homophobe.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 3:08 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
Temulkar wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:What's offensive about it?

What, I'm accusing you of being homophobic, or something?
A slur to equate those who don't agree with your pov with those who opposed the gay rights movement. It is grossly offensive, both to those who fought against section 28 etc, and to those who disagree with you. IT is not a clever comparison or analogy, it's insulting and snide.
I didn't do that, did I? Nor was the point agreeing or disagreeing with me. It was that in each case it was said that they should stop arguing strongly for what they believe, because they were putting people off. I strongly reject that.

I've no doubt that you were pro-gay rights. Why would I make out that you were? Oh right, I'm a devious liar. But I don't think I'm stupid, and I know that I wouldn't persuade anybody here you were a homophobe.

Yes you clearly did. It is there in black and white. Are you really so ignorant of LGBT issues that you don't even realise how offensive that comment is?

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 3:11 pm

StephenDolan wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:If I believe in the same outcome as you and I find your methods counterproductive I will say so

It is similar to you and TE approach to Labour before the election - attacking the leader and trying to get him replaced because he would end up loding lots of seats and votes at an election.

I thought that approach was wrong

I also think this strident and arrogant way of approaching Brexit is wring too....and that is only emphasised by Hugo supporting this stance too

Noone is telling you to stop saying what you want but there are other equally valid points of view....it is just you never accept or listen to them
Len McCluskey said Corbyn would do well to get 200 seats. So, it wasn't just people like me, or Westminster villagers taking a pop. Labour had appalling local elections.

He then did well in the election, and fair enough. But against a Tory leader who visibly squirmed when asked questions and had to be hidden from them very obviously, who (completely without precedent) launched a very controversial policy in the middle of the campaign, and put no costings in her manifesto. Not just her, Sturgeon had a disaster and so did Farron.
Come on Tubby, there was no need for the "but... "

The feedback from the doorstep as soon as the manifesto was launched was extremely positive. Labour massively increased their percentage. Labour, the party, not Corbyn the president.

I think the appalling opposition was relevant, but the manifesto did a good job, and I credit Corbyn for it. I don't think it would have been easy to implement, but it was skilful and exactly right for the situation Labour was in. And I don't mean that as faint praise.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 3:13 pm

Nope,some people left citing that basis,others for exactly the opposite reason ie in reaction to the reaction to SH.before you get to the Sue Marsh taking Maximus job "debate" with permanent leavers,Brexit,dominance of particular topics,pissed off with Corbyn supportedsrs,pissed up "with anti Corbyn supporters,tone/style of debate as referenced by TC2,not an exhaustive list by any means.With respect those are the actual facts.We regularly state that we miss/would welcome back,sometimes some do,others just read,in the end they are self excluding,which I personally think that is an error because it gives SH the opportunity to encourage "politely"people here to fuck off if they don't like it and bait the other forum members at the same time as he has done at least twice in my recollection because he is fully aware some daily read,so again I ask them to reconsider the not posting here decision.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 3:14 pm

Temulkar wrote: Yes you clearly did. It is there in black and white. Are you really so ignorant of LGBT issues that you don't even realise how offensive that comment is?

I think it's clearly there in black and white you got the wrong end of the stick. Doubtless you'll enjoy going to the other place and telling everybody I said you were a homophobe or said people who oppose staying in the EU are homophobes.

Don't let me detain you further.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 3:16 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:lots of personal attacks in the past too if we look back but not commented on.....

Tubby called me an anti-semite (apart from AK) but noone commented then...and of course there was all the cult stuff too

I didn't call you an anti-Semite, did I?

If I recall I made an analogy- which only worked if you weren't one.

You dish it out yourself. More than I do.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 3:19 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
Temulkar wrote: Yes you clearly did. It is there in black and white. Are you really so ignorant of LGBT issues that you don't even realise how offensive that comment is?
I think it's clearly there in black and white you got the wrong end of the stick. Doubtless you'll enjoy going to the other place and telling everybody I said you were a homophobe or said people who oppose staying in the EU are homophobes.

Don't let me detain you further.

I rarely post at the 'other place', haven't done in weeks as far as I can recall. And I wont be told to leave by you, thanks for the suggestion. Wasn't there a request made by mods about such comments regarding the 'other place'?

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 3:24 pm

Have I missed anything??

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 3:28 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:lots of personal attacks in the past too if we look back but not commented on.....

Tubby called me an anti-semite (apart from AK) but noone commented then...and of course there was all the cult stuff too
I didn't call you an anti-Semite, did I?

If I recall I made an analogy- which only worked if you weren't one.

You dish it out yourself. More than I do.

no the clear indication was that my arguments were anti-semitic

and I do dish it out but I dont recall ever calling anyone a racist

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 3:28 pm

What was your comment about me having driven lots of people off the board about if not the other place, then? I think that's a sensible rule though.

Look, I'm not going to engage with your or HowSilly any more, OK? You can have the last word.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 3:34 pm

you never engage in a meaningful way anyway so no loss to me....

Willow, tc2 and PF provide enough debate about the best tactics for Brexit anyway and they are much more open-minded

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 28 Jul, 2017 3:36 pm

In other news, another "bit" of the EU we apparently don't want to leave. Copernicus, which I'd never heard of.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-40675444" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Greg Clark seems to be ranging across departments trying to be sensible.