Tuesday 8th August 2017

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refitman
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Tuesday 8th August 2017

Post by refitman »

Morning all.
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Re: Tuesday 8th August 2017

Post by HindleA »

Morning


https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... nald-trump" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The conservatives turning against Donald Trump
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Re: Tuesday 8th August 2017

Post by HindleA »

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/ ... -singapore" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Average UK broadband speed. slower. than. most of Europe,

report finds


Britain is behind. European countries. including Germany, Spain and Sweden, while


Singapore has best
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Re: Tuesday 8th August 2017

Post by HindleA »

service
SpinningHugo
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Re: Tuesday 8th August 2017

Post by SpinningHugo »

AK yesterday said

"Which is why bringing up the likes of Saudi Arabia is the very opposite of "whataboutery""

I don't agree. The point about Venezuela is that certain people have been enthusiastic backers of not only the regime but have also held it up as a model to follow. This looks, at its lowest, misguided.

Nobody at all has held up Saudi Arabia as a model to follow.

It is also possible to condemn the Saudi regime and those who back it, and the Venezuelan regime and the useful idiots who have backed it.

I think it whataboutery of the most transparent kind.
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Re: Tuesday 8th August 2017

Post by HindleA »

@howsilly

we don't send the SAS to help train the troops and fund the Venezuelan Government.......


@ AK

Which is why bringing up the likes of Saudi Arabia is the very opposite of "whataboutery". Either basic human rights should be available to all, or they should not.
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Re: Tuesday 8th August 2017

Post by SpinningHugo »

HindleA wrote:@howsilly

we don't send the SAS to help train the troops and fund the Venezuelan Government.......


@ AK

Which is why bringing up the likes of Saudi Arabia is the very opposite of "whataboutery". Either basic human rights should be available to all, or they should not.

I condemn the Saudi Arabian regime and I condemn the Venezuelan regime. Easy eh?

I also condemn those who when faced with anti-Semitism in Labour respond by saying they condemn all racism. Or who respond to an atrocity in Syria by saying they condemn violence in all sides in Syria. Or who, when presented by the violence of a regime they've held up as a model, condemn violence on all sides.

Corbyn has the grotesque "my side right or wrong" attitude of the Hard Left. It is the same attitude Milne has. Which is why the former blamed the EU for the Russian invasion of Ukraine, and the latter has written in praise of the GDR.

You shouldn't back a party led by Corbyn, Milne, McDonnell, Fisher, Murray et al.
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Re: Tuesday 8th August 2017

Post by HindleA »

http://news.sky.com/story/amp/sky-views ... s-10977698" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Hacienda Generation threat to Tories
Faisal Islam,
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Re: Tuesday 8th August 2017

Post by PorFavor »

Good morfternoon.
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RogerOThornhill
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Re: Tuesday 8th August 2017

Post by RogerOThornhill »

SpinningHugo wrote:


I don't agree. The point about Venezuela is that certain people have been enthusiastic backers of not only the regime but have also held it up as a model to follow. This looks, at its lowest, misguided.
So which bits of the Labour Manifesto of 2017 were modeled on what has been carried out in Venezuela?
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Re: Tuesday 8th August 2017

Post by SpinningHugo »

RogerOThornhill wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:


I don't agree. The point about Venezuela is that certain people have been enthusiastic backers of not only the regime but have also held it up as a model to follow. This looks, at its lowest, misguided.
So which bits of the Labour Manifesto of 2017 were modeled on what has been carried out in Venezuela?
None at all as far as I am aware. Who would make such a stupid claim?

The endorsements from Corbyn et al came much earlier. They'd be much more cautious now they're in control of the party (see also praise of Putin, GDR, IRA etc).
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Re: Tuesday 8th August 2017

Post by RogerOThornhill »

SpinningHugo wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:


I don't agree. The point about Venezuela is that certain people have been enthusiastic backers of not only the regime but have also held it up as a model to follow. This looks, at its lowest, misguided.
So which bits of the Labour Manifesto of 2017 were modeled on what has been carried out in Venezuela?
None at all as far as I am aware. Who would make such a stupid claim?

The endorsements from Corbyn et al came much earlier. They'd be much more cautious now they're in control of the party (see also praise of Putin, GDR, IRA etc).
Oh right.

So when you're saying that they have held it up as a model to follow...they're not actually following it?

If they're not, then all of this current noise is just silly season stuff.

Including, it has to be said, by the idiotic Priti Patel.
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Re: Tuesday 8th August 2017

Post by SpinningHugo »

RogerOThornhill wrote:[
Oh right.

So when you're saying that they have held it up as a model to follow...they're not actually following it?

l.
Absolutely. As I've kept saying, the Labour manifesto was in fact about as progressive as the Tory one (ie not at all). The manifesto was full of middle class sops t win votes, and few if any promises to help the poorest.

I had thought that a bad thing?

No, to be clear, all the praise for Venezuela came before the 2015 leadership election. As did the other statements in praise of the IRA, GDR, Putin etc. Corbyn and his Praetorian guard are much more cautious now.

For myself, I don't think we should ignore what they said previously. I think, for example, that Corbyn's earlier statements condemning the EU much more closely reflect his actual views than the cautious words he has to use as leader.


So, as I said, it is immoral to vote for Labour because of the known views of Corbyn, McDonnell, Milne, Fisher, Murray etc. Not because of the manifesto and its middle class sops.
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Re: Tuesday 8th August 2017

Post by RogerOThornhill »

SpinningHugo wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:[
Oh right.

So when you're saying that they have held it up as a model to follow...they're not actually following it?

l.
Absolutely. As I've kept saying, the Labour manifesto was in fact about as progressive as the Tory one (ie not at all). The manifesto was full of middle class sops t win votes, and few if any promises to help the poorest.
OK, so all of the "This is what will happen here if Corbyn wins" is the purest guff and just trolling by the usual suspects and can be ignored.

Thanks. That's all I need to know. Anyone's previous views can be taken up and used against them now - as we know from Brexiteers saying previously that we could stay in the single market after Brexit.
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Re: Tuesday 8th August 2017

Post by HindleA »

There were several specific reversals/proposed increases targeted to the poorest/fixed income and where to start with no promises.And please don't quote the IFS at me.I am responding to your words.Half a million receivers of CA a £10pw boost for one thing,roughly half on means tested benefits,otherwise income enhancing restricted,Osborne nearly removed it under the cover of UC as a stand alone.
Last edited by HindleA on Tue 08 Aug, 2017 12:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Tuesday 8th August 2017

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

Surely it's not in doubt that Corbyn and Corbynites strongly supported Venezuela, and that was dreadful judgement? Nobody backed Saudi Arabia the same way. It ought to be embarrassing. But would Corbyn make the same mistake again? I doubt it. We move on.

Podemos, by the way, backed away, long ago. There are other parties in Venezuela of the centre left to back. It's not a question of Chavez or the horrible Latin American right. I think some of those parties have links with Labour.
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Re: Tuesday 8th August 2017

Post by gilsey »

HindleA wrote:http://news.sky.com/story/amp/sky-views ... s-10977698


Hacienda Generation threat to Tories
Faisal Islam,
The Tory approach so far is that this is a one-off - a freakish mania afflicting bribed young people conned by Corbyn, which will soon simmer down.

I contend that this is totally wrong.

This is just the most visible manifestation of a wave of young and middle aged voters, whose rather different values, ill-suited to right-left spectrum, will reshape British politics in the next decade and beyond.
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Re: Tuesday 8th August 2017

Post by howsillyofme1 »

No, we backed Saudi and Bahrain with forces training and weapons

Of course this is far less serious than a noted anti-colonialist supporting in words a regime that tried to reduce inequality and distribute money more freely

That this regime descended into authoritarianism is very disappointing but not completely unpredictable - others where we hoped would be better than they are have fallen to the same mistakes

Let us be clear Venezuela is only mentioned as a stick to beat Corbyn with - it is just a continuation of what has happened since he became leader and it is becoming a bit repetitive.
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Re: Tuesday 8th August 2017

Post by gilsey »

Tubby Isaacs wrote: Nobody backed Saudi Arabia the same way.
The British govt backs Saudi Arabia in every way that matters.
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Re: Tuesday 8th August 2017

Post by howsillyofme1 »

Oh and yes Corbyn gets himself into trouble on these things by letting his heart rule his head sometimes

The history of Latim America and the involvement of the CIA led to many worse things than happened to Venezuela in the last few years....it was probably hoping too much to expect good government to arise from that
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Re: Tuesday 8th August 2017

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

Can't do links but Corbyn very clearly set up Chavez as an international model, contrasting it ridiculously with the Washington Consensus. Nobody in Washington or anywhere else ever said you had to do austerity if you had lots of money coming in. And the "Washington Consensus" is grim, but it happens to countries nobody will lend money to, for a reason.
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Re: Tuesday 8th August 2017

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

gilsey wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote: Nobody backed Saudi Arabia the same way.
The British govt backs Saudi Arabia in every way that matters.
By selling arms to it? Sure. That's wrong.

Nobody praises it as a model.
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Re: Tuesday 8th August 2017

Post by howsillyofme1 »

We are doing austerity with apparently assets being worth over 10 trillion! There is plenty of 'money' whatever that actually means now but it is being accumulated...

I don't remember trickle down working in the oil states very well either.....seems to go on buying trophy footballers these days

Chavez was a left wing populist who overshot but he was trying to do something to redress the excesses of the wealthy....in the end it could not sustain after an oil price crash
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Re: Tuesday 8th August 2017

Post by howsillyofme1 »

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
gilsey wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote: Nobody backed Saudi Arabia the same way.
The British govt backs Saudi Arabia in every way that matters.
By selling arms to it? Sure. That's wrong.

Nobody praises it as a model.
Well successive Prime Ministers seem to see it as a great model...Mark Thatcher did as well and how is that terrorism funding report getting on?

Yes Corbyn can be criticised for letting his heart rule his head but in the end noone will be killed like in Yemen or repressed like in Bahrain because of it
Last edited by howsillyofme1 on Tue 08 Aug, 2017 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tuesday 8th August 2017

Post by gilsey »

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
gilsey wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote: Nobody backed Saudi Arabia the same way.
The British govt backs Saudi Arabia in every way that matters.
By selling arms to it? Sure. That's wrong.

Nobody praises it as a model.
They don't criticise its human rights record either.
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Re: Tuesday 8th August 2017

Post by AnatolyKasparov »

Come on Tubby, a shamefully large number of our MPs (Labour as well, not just Tory) are in cahoots with the Saudi regime.

That they don't praise it to the skies as Corbyn did Chavez is, ultimately, a side issue.
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Re: Tuesday 8th August 2017

Post by HindleA »

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ter-brexit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Judge calls for clarity on status of ECJ rulings in UK after Brexit
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Re: Tuesday 8th August 2017

Post by AnatolyKasparov »

And as I have just said in another place - which ultimately affects us more, what happens in Venezuela or Saudi?

No, I'm not arguing from that we shouldn't care about the former. But its still a valid point IMO.
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Re: Tuesday 8th August 2017

Post by SpinningHugo »

RogerOThornhill wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:[
Oh right.

So when you're saying that they have held it up as a model to follow...they're not actually following it?

l.
Absolutely. As I've kept saying, the Labour manifesto was in fact about as progressive as the Tory one (ie not at all). The manifesto was full of middle class sops t win votes, and few if any promises to help the poorest.
OK, so all of the "This is what will happen here if Corbyn wins" is the purest guff and just trolling by the usual suspects and can be ignored.

Thanks. That's all I need to know. Anyone's previous views can be taken up and used against them now - as we know from Brexiteers saying previously that we could stay in the single market after Brexit.
Who has made such a claim? There might be some rightwing nutjobs who have said that, but I don't know of any.

No, the allegation is that Corbyn and other fellow travellers like Owen Jones have been credulous fools who have no judgement, and have then refused to accept that. Nobody thinks or claims we won't have food in the supermarkets if Labour won power.
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Re: Tuesday 8th August 2017

Post by HindleA »

This was posted last night then removed,"too early" I think.


Conservatives face a crisis of principle. We must now tell and expect the truth


https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... p#comments" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Donald Trump assuaged the public with happy talk, but once the populist fever abates, truth must fill that void, argues Arizona Republican senator Jeff Flake in an excerpt from his new book
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Re: Tuesday 8th August 2017

Post by SpinningHugo »

AnatolyKasparov wrote:And as I have just said in another place - which ultimately affects us more, what happens in Venezuela or Saudi?

No, I'm not arguing from that we shouldn't care about the former. But its still a valid point IMO.

And what about France? Does what happens there affect us more than either? Or What about the United States, that is really important too. Or what about Greece.

So many other places to worry about that affect us more. What about, eh?
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Re: Tuesday 8th August 2017

Post by SpinningHugo »

gilsey wrote: They don't criticise its human rights record either.

I do. It is disgusting. As is Venezuela. People who don't criticise them have lost their moral compass.

People who, when confronted with the collapse of democracy in a country and the rounding up of the opposition, denounce violence "on all sides" deserve nothing but mockery.

Party loyalty blinds people to things like this. I am glad I am not a member of the party that demands such stupidity any longer.
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Re: Tuesday 8th August 2017

Post by SpinningHugo »

howsillyofme1 wrote: Well successive Prime Ministers seem to see it as a great model...Mark Thatcher did as well and how is that terrorism funding report getting on?

Which Prime Ministers have said Saudi Arabia is a good model to follow? That is arrant nonsense I am afraid.

This is politics as a game. You really don't have to "pick a team" and then defend your team to the hilt. It isn't like supporting Manchester United: blind loyalty is not a pre-requisite.

Selling arms to Saudi Arabia is wrong. It is a disgusting regime.

The state violence, degrading of democracy, and collapse of society in Venezuela is appalling. Its regime is a disgrace.

Saying Corbyn has been a credulous fool doesn't entail siding with apologists for Saudi Arabia. You don't have to pick a team.

The Labour leadership has been badly wrong on Venezuela. So what if the Tories, or whoever, have been badly wrong on Saudi Arabia or anywhere else?
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Re: Tuesday 8th August 2017

Post by SpinningHugo »

As I said yesterday, that Corbyn has, predictably, been on the side of the idiots with respect to Venezuela is not a big deal to me. It is just one of many cases of his having appalling views on foreign affairs, the area he concentrated on for most of his career as a backbencher.

I only mentioned it yesterday because his denouncing of violence "on all sides" was so characteristic, and funny. When it comes to a choice between loyalty to the left, and public morality, he'll always side with the former.
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Re: Tuesday 8th August 2017

Post by howsillyofme1 »

The attempts to make a comparison between France and Venezuela above are laughable

Venezuela is not a country with a proud democratic history that is on the verge of destruction, it ha been a country that has seen a history of violence and massive inequality. The USA has also been involved in undermining any attempts at anything that they do not approve of.....including funding coups

Maduro is reaping the consequences of the bingeing on oil wealth but at least the Chavez regime understood the gross inequality and tried to do something. The difficulties and corruption that blight many countries proved too much and it dissolved into authoritarianism

We have seen similar things in Thailand, the Phillipines is also under pressure, as are countries such as South Africa, Brazil and Myanmar

What is also pretty obvious is that the actual truth is often distorted with black propaganda abounding - who is the 'opposition' and what is their motivation

Your view of the world is amazingly simplistic and again makes me doubt you claims of academic prowess
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Re: Tuesday 8th August 2017

Post by howsillyofme1 »

oh and one British PM subverted our law and demcracy to hide the truth of corruption in arms deals with Saudia Arabia
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Re: Tuesday 8th August 2017

Post by SpinningHugo »

howsillyofme1 wrote:The attempts to make a comparison between France and Venezuela above are laughable

Venezuela is not a country with a proud democratic history that is on the verge of destruction, it ha been a country that has seen a history of violence and massive inequality. The USA has also been involved in undermining any attempts at anything that they do not approve of.....including funding coups

Maduro is reaping the consequences of the bingeing on oil wealth but at least the Chavez regime understood the gross inequality and tried to do something. The difficulties and corruption that blight many countries proved too much and it dissolved into authoritarianism

We have seen similar things in Thailand, the Phillipines is also under pressure, as are countries such as South Africa, Brazil and Myanmar

What is also pretty obvious is that the actual truth is often distorted with black propaganda abounding - who is the 'opposition' and what is their motivation

Your view of the world is amazingly simplistic and again makes me doubt you claims of academic prowess
And what about Qatar? And Belarus? And North Korea?

What about, eh?

I wasn't making any comparison between France and Venezuela. I was making the point that the fact that there are other countries that impact on the UK more is to spectacularly miss the point.
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Re: Tuesday 8th August 2017

Post by SpinningHugo »

howsillyofme1 wrote:oh and one British PM subverted our law and demcracy to hide the truth of corruption in arms deals with Saudia Arabia

Disgusting no doubt.

Why are we talking about this again?
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Re: Tuesday 8th August 2017

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

I'll see your Saudi Arabia and raise to Syria and Russia. See, we can all play this game. People in power make all kinds of alliances, some of them bad.

But if you've been basically free to align with who you like, as Corbyn has, you need to do a lot better than anti-Imperialism of fools nonsense. That's all it is. And when that's your rationale, you get bitten on the bum. And deserve to get held to account.
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Re: Tuesday 8th August 2017

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

SpinningHugo wrote:As I said yesterday, that Corbyn has, predictably, been on the side of the idiots with respect to Venezuela is not a big deal to me. It is just one of many cases of his having appalling views on foreign affairs, the area he concentrated on for most of his career as a backbencher.

I only mentioned it yesterday because his denouncing of violence "on all sides" was so characteristic, and funny. When it comes to a choice between loyalty to the left, and public morality, he'll always side with the former.
Yeah, it was awful that "on all sides" nonsense. That's what got me. Not that he made a mistake but the spinning for his pals.
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Re: Tuesday 8th August 2017

Post by AnatolyKasparov »

Can I refer people to the Labour MPs who rebelled on the Saudi/Yemen conflict late last year?

Now, I would be interested to hear SH's and Tubby's explanations for *that*. It was a deeply disgusting, profoundly amoral act which shames all those who were part of it (and often for the most trivial and petty "score settling" reasons - arguably worse for them than those who are genuine shills of the Saudi regime)

Yes, the simplistic "anti-imperialism" Corbyn often espouses is one of his biggest flaws. But few things he has done were as base as the above.
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Re: Tuesday 8th August 2017

Post by Willow904 »

https://amp.theguardian.com/education/2 ... hancellors" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Andrew Adonis: a one-man tuition fee Twitter storm
An attack on high tuition fees and high salaries and the link between the two. Also mentions the elephant in the room, the relationship between funding and number of places available:
The 6.1% interest rate on student loans, he predicts, will go, and this will inevitably mean restoring the cap on student numbers, lifted two years ago by the then chancellor, George Osborne.
The graph someone here (sorry, can't remember who) posted showing the mix of where university funding comes from certainly seems to support his position that what the Coalition did under Cameron substantially altered university funding from the model inherited from New Labour. What we have now isn't an extension of Labour's funding format, but a complete rewrite.
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Re: Tuesday 8th August 2017

Post by AnatolyKasparov »

I note, meanwhile, that it was Ellie Mae O'Hagan's turn to get the AbiWilks treatment yesterday.

Do tell me (that famous Willy Wonka avatar is apposite here) what is it about young left wing female journalists that so arouses the ire of a certain sort of internet male??
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Re: Tuesday 8th August 2017

Post by RogerOThornhill »

SpinningHugo wrote: Who has made such a claim? There might be some rightwing nutjobs who have said that, but I don't know of any.

No, the allegation is that Corbyn and other fellow travellers like Owen Jones have been credulous fools who have no judgement, and have then refused to accept that. Nobody thinks or claims we won't have food in the supermarkets if Labour won power.
Given it's mainly right wing nutjobs that are stoking this particular issue and keeping it going, then I think you're being disingenuous in claiming that you haven't see any such claims.

If you're happy to be on the same side of this as morons like Tom Harris, Guido, Harry Cole and Priti Patel; then fine, carry on jeering at Corbyn and ignore the 100 other things that are more important and which, strangely enough, you don't feel you want to post about here.
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Re: Tuesday 8th August 2017

Post by SpinningHugo »

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Can I refer people to the Labour MPs who rebelled on the Saudi/Yemen conflict late last year?

Now, I would be interested to hear SH's and Tubby's explanations for *that*. It was a deeply disgusting, profoundly amoral act which shames all those who were part of it (and often for the most trivial and petty "score settling" reasons - arguably worse for them than those who are genuine shills of the Saudi regime)

Yes, the simplistic "anti-imperialism" Corbyn often espouses is one of his biggest flaws. But few things he has done were as base as the above.

Disgusting. All to do with jobs in the defence industry and union pressure.

See? You don't have to choose sides. You can in fact denounce Labour and Tory. If the Labour leader says something offensive and stupid it is not necessary to say "but what about the offensive stupid thing Theresa May said." You can just say it is offensive and stupid.

I hold no brief for those Labour MPs. Nothing to do with me, I left the party long before and vote elsewhere.
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Re: Tuesday 8th August 2017

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

Afternoon all.

I do think it is sensible to wait for some post match analysis in Venezuela before getting too tied up in this analysis. Who knows what's really going on?
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Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 11:34 am

Re: Tuesday 8th August 2017

Post by howsillyofme1 »

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:As I said yesterday, that Corbyn has, predictably, been on the side of the idiots with respect to Venezuela is not a big deal to me. It is just one of many cases of his having appalling views on foreign affairs, the area he concentrated on for most of his career as a backbencher.

I only mentioned it yesterday because his denouncing of violence "on all sides" was so characteristic, and funny. When it comes to a choice between loyalty to the left, and public morality, he'll always side with the former.
Yeah, it was awful that "on all sides" nonsense. That's what got me. Not that he made a mistake but the spinning for his pals.

So there is no violence from the opposition whoever they are?

My experience is that these type of protests are not all they seem and caution should be used, especially in Central and South America

AK says it well that Corbyns knee jerk support for these anti-imperialist regimes is a real issue, especially if you reach back in the past. In the end though it does not have much material effect on things

It has to be compared though with the cynical use of this by people who have no problems selling arms to the dross of humanity and potentially subvert our politics and law to do so. Also the cosying up to dictators for a few bucks when out of office

This is all part of the silly season and some commentators/politicians should not throw stones when in glass houses
AnatolyKasparov
Prime Minister
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Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 9:26 pm

Re: Tuesday 8th August 2017

Post by AnatolyKasparov »

SpinningHugo wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Can I refer people to the Labour MPs who rebelled on the Saudi/Yemen conflict late last year?

Now, I would be interested to hear SH's and Tubby's explanations for *that*. It was a deeply disgusting, profoundly amoral act which shames all those who were part of it (and often for the most trivial and petty "score settling" reasons - arguably worse for them than those who are genuine shills of the Saudi regime)

Yes, the simplistic "anti-imperialism" Corbyn often espouses is one of his biggest flaws. But few things he has done were as base as the above.

Disgusting. All to do with jobs in the defence industry and union pressure.
Actually, what makes it worse (like I said) was that it wasn't "all" about that at all.
"IS TONTY BLAIR BEHIND THIS???!!!!111???!!!"
howsillyofme1
First Secretary of State
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Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 11:34 am

Re: Tuesday 8th August 2017

Post by howsillyofme1 »

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Afternoon all.

I do think it is sensible to wait for some post match analysis in Venezuela before getting too tied up in this analysis. Who knows what's really going on?
Exactly!
tinybgoat
Speaker of the House
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Re: Tuesday 8th August 2017

Post by tinybgoat »

https://www.globalgreens.org/news/invis ... s-movement" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
For the Greens worldwide there is a country that has disappeared from the political radar, becoming almost invisible: Venezuela…
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