Tuesday 8th August 2017

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Tue 08 Aug, 2017 3:41 pm

I would have to quibble a bit with the idea we can't know what's really going on in Venezuela.

Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch have both extensively documented events in Venezuela over the last couple of decades.

Transparency International has Venezuela listed at joint 9th in their list of most corrupt countries.

Corbyn chose to praise Chavez. No one made him. He willingly associated himself with his regime, just as the Tories have repeatedly associated themselves with Saudia Arabia. Both are thus legitimately judged accordingly. If Corbyn's position in regards to his past words and support for Chavez's regime is defensible, let him defend it. Personally, I'm not inclined to wholly condemn or wholly absolve, but that's not really what my post is about. My post is about the fact that as far as enemy attacks go, attacking someone on their actual record is not exactly unfair. Be wary of crying wolf. I don't think the criticisms over Corbyn's long held associations with Venezuela are in the same bracket as the nonsense over tuition fee non promises. They are serious and need to be properly answered if possible. I don't think he can just shrug them off.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 08 Aug, 2017 3:42 pm

Seriously? There's not enough to properly condemn the Venezuela Government, without "both sides" stuff? Amnesty don't agree. And they've been flagging Venezuela for ages. So, not it's not just Priti Patel and Guido Fawkes. Not that something becomes wrong just because it's in the Daily Telegraph anyway. It's in the Guardian too- see Nick Cohen.

Re Saudi Arabia, there were a lot of abstentions on that vote, I recall. Doubtless some would be pairs. What were the others up to? Probably a fair bit of Alan Clark on a bad day logic, that someone else would sell them arms if we didn't. That's true, but it shouldn't be good enough for Labour MPs.

To be able to do something about Saudi, you need allies. As you do when you're negotiating such trifles as the UK's exit from the EU. Which is why the Corbyn anti-Imperialism of fools is such a bad thing. However obnoxious May and Johnson are, they've got our allies back. Corbyn hasn't. And thinks Estonians and Lithuanians and Ukrainians are a bunch of American dupes who provoke Putin.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 08 Aug, 2017 3:53 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Can I refer people to the Labour MPs who rebelled on the Saudi/Yemen conflict late last year?

Now, I would be interested to hear SH's and Tubby's explanations for *that*. It was a deeply disgusting, profoundly amoral act which shames all those who were part of it (and often for the most trivial and petty "score settling" reasons - arguably worse for them than those who are genuine shills of the Saudi regime)

Yes, the simplistic "anti-imperialism" Corbyn often espouses is one of his biggest flaws. But few things he has done were as base as the above.

The leader of the Opposition giving Assad and Putin an easy time is worse than some backbenchers abstaining in an Opposition Day vote.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 08 Aug, 2017 4:00 pm

Of course Amnesty and Transparency are right to hold the Venezuelan government to account just like they do all the others, including our own.

I'm sad to see folk here joining the hysterical witch hunt this truly is.

Listen I campaigned for Tony Blair. Went to tea at Downing St. Shook his hand. Chatted to Cherie. It turns out he is responsible for many more deaths than Hugo Chavez.

Does that make me a bad person? Maybe it does. But it's complicated. Like the situation in Venezuela is.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 08 Aug, 2017 4:02 pm

Willow904 wrote:I would have to quibble a bit with the idea we can't know what's really going on in Venezuela.

Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch have both extensively documented events in Venezuela over the last couple of decades.

Transparency International has Venezuela listed at joint 9th in their list of most corrupt countries.

Corbyn chose to praise Chavez. No one made him. He willingly associated himself with his regime, just as the Tories have repeatedly associated themselves with Saudia Arabia. Both are thus legitimately judged accordingly. If Corbyn's position in regards to his past words and support for Chavez's regime is defensible, let him defend it. Personally, I'm not inclined to wholly condemn or wholly absolve, but that's not really what my post is about. My post is about the fact that as far as enemy attacks go, attacking someone on their actual record is not exactly unfair. Be wary of crying wolf. I don't think the criticisms over Corbyn's long held associations with Venezuela are in the same bracket as the nonsense over tuition fee non promises. They are serious and need to be properly answered if possible. I don't think he can just shrug them off.

With tuition fees, I think that sort of thing's inevitable with a snap election really. The deck is stacked so heavily towards the Government, I can't get too excited about the leader of the Opposition blurting something vague out in an interview and being slow to correct the impression he gave. I don't think it was much of a factor in the election. And anyway, everybody agrees that lots of the debt won't be paid back- Hugo made a good point that it was likely never intended to be. So I don't see any great problem with taking the write down now. I'm sure that indebted students would appreciate that. Whether he'd go further, I don't know.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 08 Aug, 2017 4:08 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Of course Amnesty and Transparency are right to hold the Venezuelan government to account just like they do all the others, including our own.

I'm sad to see folk here joining the hysterical witch hunt this truly is.

Listen I campaigned for Tony Blair. Went to tea at Downing St. Shook his hand. Chatted to Cherie. It turns out he is responsible for many more deaths than Hugo Chavez.

Does that make me a bad person? Maybe it does. But it's complicated. Like the situation in Venezuela is.

It's not complicated, unless you think there are only fascists and Maduro. There are plenty of people who aren't either. 59 social organizations from Venezuela have signed a letter today against the government.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 08 Aug, 2017 4:14 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Of course Amnesty and Transparency are right to hold the Venezuelan government to account just like they do all the others, including our own.

I'm sad to see folk here joining the hysterical witch hunt this truly is.

Listen I campaigned for Tony Blair. Went to tea at Downing St. Shook his hand. Chatted to Cherie. It turns out he is responsible for many more deaths than Hugo Chavez.

Does that make me a bad person? Maybe it does. But it's complicated. Like the situation in Venezuela is.
It's not complicated, unless you think there are only fascists and Maduro. There are plenty of people who aren't either. 59 social organizations from Venezuela have signed a letter today against the government.

Tubby of course you want Maduro to be 100% wrong because it gives you a stick to beat Corbyn with. Of course Maduro is deeply flawed.

I'm not stupid.

But this was never established as an anti-corbyn forum and if you carry on with such behaviour you know it's upsetting to many who post (or used to) here.

Now was I wrong to support Blair?

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 08 Aug, 2017 4:15 pm

Six local council byelections last week, an eventful batch:

Sevenoaks DC - easily the least exciting of these results, this was an easy Tory hold with approaching 60 per cent of the vote - up around 5 points since 2015. Tories easily defeated a sole Labour candidate here in 2003 and were actually unopposed in 2011, but in 2007 and two years ago the LibDems at least turned in a respectable showing to be vaguely competitive. They were barely unchanged this time, though - whilst Labour appeared for the first time in 14 years, but had to be content with 7% (Greens had actually polled better on GE day '15, but they did not stand this time)

Charnwood DC - Labour hold by just a handful of votes, despite a modest swing in their favour. This apparent paradox is of course explained by our old friend the multi-member ward, and this one duly split 1Con/1Lab two years ago with the former topping the poll. This has been a competitve area going back to 2003, when Labour took both seats but it was fairly close. In 2006 a previous byelection saw the BNP take second place, and they polled strongly again come the following year's regular elections - Labour holding on largely due to the right wing vote being split. As in most places the BNP subsequently vanished and 2011 was again a straight Lab/Con fight with the former winning out again (but again not massively) until the Tories finally made their breakthrough on GE day in 2015. The big two took over 90% between them this time as well - LibDems showed up for the first time since the previous 2006 vacancy and polled similarly, whilst UKIP stood for the first time ever (given the previous BNP history here, maybe slightly surprising) but if that is against the spirit of the times, the result was less so - last with 2%.

Kings Lynn and West Norfolk DC - in a variation of the above this was actually a Tory gain from Labour despite a small swing to the latter (Labour's first byelection loss anywhere since the regular council elections back in May) in a ward which again split 1Con/1Lab two years ago, with the former finishing ahead overall by a significant margin this time - and again this place has a competitive recent history; both Labour in 2003, both Tory in 2007 before splitting one each in both 2011 (though Labour were narrowly ahead that time) and 2015. Both main parties were down this time, though, as the LibDems showed up for the first time since 2003 and polled a notably strong 25% - also suffering from this were the Greens who have polled respectably in the past two elections but whose 9% this time saw them come last with their share more than halved.

Swale DC - Labour gain from UKIP with over half the vote, the previous election here in 2015 (the first since boundary changes) saw this ward split 1Con/1UKIP and they were perhaps helped by having only one candidate each whilst Labour (who had two) narrowly missed out. They made no mistake this time, however, as their share roughly doubled with a swing of around 17-18% from the Tories who had topped the poll last time (and won the Kent CC division covering here just this May) UKIP saw their share halved, but 14% is still one of their best showings anywhere for several months now and it meant they at least finished ahead of the LibDems who did well in this area once upon a time - but those days are some way behind us now and last place with 8% (little changed on two years ago) was their lot on this occasion.

Thanet DC - another Labour gain from UKIP, though this ward was actually the only one on this council where they topped the poll in 2015; it split 1Lab/1UKIP as the latter duly swept to outrght control here - this result confirms they have lost that to NOC following previous byelection losses and defections (though they are still likely to remain control with the help of a few - ex-Kipper - Indies for now) This ward split 1Lab/1Con in 2003, but a previous byelection later that year saw Labour take the Tory seat and it was thereafter safe for them until the local electoral upheaval two years ago - and it is safe again now, Labour sweeping to victory with over 57% which was an increase of some 26 points. Tories also moved up modestly in a now fairly distant second, whilst UKIP crashed from nearly a third of the vote last time to less than 7% now. LibDems stood here for the first time since the 2003 byelection and scored a modest 4%, though that was still ahead of three other candidates - the first of two Independents, the Greens (well down on two years ago) and the second Independent brought up the rear with 1.5%.

Worthing DC - Labour gain from Tory, meaning they have representation on this slice of the south coast for the first time since the 1970s. There have been signs this was coming however, Labour had a fair few near misses on this council in 2016 and even their generally poor results in May saw them run the Tories quite close in some of the W Sussex CC divisions covering this borough. Most might not have predicted this ward to be the spot they made the final breakthrough, however - it has unchanged boundaries since way back in 1983, it elected three Tories then and has duly done so at every election since - despite the LibDems dominating the council generally for significant periods. LibDems nonetheless finished second here every time until and including 2010 - Labour took second here in 2011 and 2012 before UKIP managed in in 2014 and 2015 before Labour duly regained it last year, but only UKIP's "annus mirabilis" in 2014 saw things even vaguely close. UKIP did not even stand this time, but it is debatable if it would have made much difference as Labour swept in with 47 per cent, and increase of 28 points since 2016 and a swing of 17% to them from the Tories. LibDems slightly up on the last few years, Greens losing over two thirds of their vote as they came last with little more than 2%.

Another fallow week coming up after all this excitement, but four contests on the 17th.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 08 Aug, 2017 4:16 pm

Thanks Anatoly - great post

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 08 Aug, 2017 4:24 pm

How can I know whether this guy speaks the truth, but here's one account of what is going on. Why should I believe him any less than anyone else?

"I actively participated [in the demonstrations] because I believe in having peace in our country. We need to resolve our differences by constitutional means, by having respect, communion, solidarity, and sovereignty.

I consider that these [anti-government] protests are illegitimate; there was a problem over some legislators, therefore the Supreme Court had the right to overrule the National Assembly, and today the opposition is not willing to negotiate. We need a legitimate assembly, either with the opposition or those who are on the side of the government.

President Maduro has faced this crisis with great capacity, and with agility, confronting the current economic war. He has maintained the institutionality, the legacy of Chavez, the machinery that works in favour of our people.

What we are living through is a programmed act of apparent scarcity. The transnational corporations and the people who manage the industry and distribution channels are responsible for this crisis.

We are in the middle of a class war. This is a fight where we, the people who are not part of the oligarchy, are blamed for the fact that hospitals have reached poor neighbourhoods, that bus journeys are among the cheapest in the world, that poor people have access to food.

We are getting closer to a much more harmonious relationship, and the Venezuelan oligarchy cannot accept the transformation.

To me, the most terrible damage that the oligarchy has done is to impose a culture of hatred. The dialogue between the parties could have been so much easier, but today we have people who have assumed that violence is the only way to satisfy this difference.

This culture of hatred comes from our history. It starts with Spanish colonisation. The Spaniards hated us because we were Indians, then the upper class hated us because we were poor, then they hated us not only because we were poor, but we were also sambos, we were black.

However, I believe that beyond all of what's on our screens, and all the game of truths and lies, we are a people of peace. And although this conflict and situation has affected me and our people, this fight has given us more clarity in terms of the historical movement we are facing. We need to fight. To me, all of this is blackmail by those on the right, and we have to go through this in order to be able to transform our reality."

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/featur ... 33611.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Tue 08 Aug, 2017 4:40 pm

Venezuela is a victim of its history and the current Government follow in the line of various other unpleasant ones in that part of the world

It is also well documented the US interference in the internal politics of the region which cannot be said to have had no influence on the ability to attack the gross inewuality in that region, and the impact of military dictatorships and drug money

Some criticism is due of Corbyn for only looking at the political philosophy and being hopeful that somewhere in South America there will be a Government that succeeds

I doubt any such Government would be allowed by the USA

In most cases of internal unrest like this then there are calls for restraint by all sides...by explicitly blaming the Government side like this then it appears that we are supporting a coup - is that case?

Is violence now okay against corrupt Government who commit extra-judicial assassinations and support detention without trial?

Perhaps we should be careful what we wish for

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 08 Aug, 2017 4:47 pm

The focus should be on the government because they've got the whole panoply of the state behind them, with a hugely politicized civil service, courts and army, and are using them against political opponents. Nobody's saying they can't arrest people who carry out violent attacks.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Tue 08 Aug, 2017 4:59 pm

Is all the state behind them? Are the army and what are the US up to?...I take it you now support the IRA after the actions of the Stormont Government in the 1970s and the violence meted out against unarmed protestors?

And the Pakestinian violence and attacks against Israel are okay too?

I suggest none of us here really have any idea what is going on in the barrios in Venezuela do we and who is doing what

I am not against popular uprisings against repressive Governments and also accept it may be violent as it could be the only way to get listened too....this is often a basis for what we call 'terrorism'.....

I do though like to be fully aware of what is going on before taking any sides - as you will see here, unlike you and Hugo, I havent on this one as I dont know enough of the facts

I just know there are some prettu slippery characters using this as part of a contnuing quest against the Labour leader

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 08 Aug, 2017 5:33 pm

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/proc ... nd-sky-plc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

News story
Process update on the Secretary of State’s consideration of the proposed merger between 21st Century Fox Inc and Sky.plc

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 08 Aug, 2017 5:36 pm

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... mmendation" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Decision
Timothy, Nick - Chief of Staff, No.10 - ACOBA recommendation

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 08 Aug, 2017 5:38 pm

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/furt ... -programme" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Press release
Further results published from government’s fire testing programme

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 08 Aug, 2017 5:38 pm

HindleA wrote:https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... mmendation

Decision
Timothy, Nick - Chief of Staff, No.10 - ACOBA recommendation

We should remember this and hold him to account in due course!

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 08 Aug, 2017 5:39 pm

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... evaluation" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Research and analysis
Independent state school partnerships (ISSP): evaluation

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 08 Aug, 2017 6:08 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
HindleA wrote:https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... mmendation

Decision
Timothy, Nick - Chief of Staff, No.10 - ACOBA recommendation
We should remember this and hold him to account in due course!

Of course, this is the "silly season" so no real coverage. Journalists, eh?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 08 Aug, 2017 6:11 pm

Brother used to spend a fair few months at a time in Venezuela in times past,a work related thing.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 08 Aug, 2017 6:30 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... explosives" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Belgian police open fire on car after high-speed chase in Brussels suburb(Molenbeek)

(Lives in Etterbeek)

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 08 Aug, 2017 6:34 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... -condition" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Court rules against NHS over drug funding for boy with rare condition

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 08 Aug, 2017 6:38 pm

Did we have this? Let somebody else do the hard work, then come back and tell everyone you'd have done a better job.

What does "come back" mean? Do the same bollocks as before? That'll be very long in the tooth.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 08 Aug, 2017 6:39 pm

From yesterday (apologies if we've already done it):

Government to release key Brexit policy papers in next few weeks

Papers expected to cover topics such as customs union and Northern Irish border as No 10 accused of being ‘a bit absent’
(Guardian - my emphasis)

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... icy-papers

Edited to tidy up

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 08 Aug, 2017 6:43 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:Did we have this? Let somebody else do the hard work, then come back and tell everyone you'd have done a better job.

What does "come back" mean? Do the same bollocks as before? That'll be very long in the tooth.

Yes - I saw that, but was unable to track down whether this was a recent Nigel Farage thing or an old reference. Do you know, please?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 08 Aug, 2017 6:43 pm

How can you be a bit absent?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 08 Aug, 2017 6:49 pm

To be fair,it is only my right hand here at the moment,the rest of me is in the garden.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 08 Aug, 2017 7:05 pm

Speech last week(think)YAF)(background)

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Tue 08 Aug, 2017 7:11 pm

I am interested to see the proposals for NI....the thing is there is already a solution within the EU existing structures so will they be happy to adapt them further just for the UK.....interesting to see

This would test the UK (and perhaps Irish) resolve on how important that border is

No border at NI frontier - UK and Ireland join Schengen........tick
Customs checks and tariffs - UK joins CU......tick
Movement of goods, labour, finance and services.....UK participates fully in SM......tick

All there already....no country participates in all 3 from outside EU......yet

The one that no-one wants to speak about is Schengen.....everyone dismisses it but the alternatives don't look so great

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 08 Aug, 2017 8:18 pm

I wonder if there was any comeback for SH for breaching his just ignore him policy.Though he returned to it,swiftly.If only I can think of a reason for choosing that one.

On the mention of people being put off,of course the reasons vary sometimes for the complete opposite of each other,haven't seen tc2,for a while.I hope they weren't put off completely.And no,that wasn't a blaming of anybody thing.I view everybody regardless with equal.disdain.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 08 Aug, 2017 8:21 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:The focus should be on the government because they've got the whole panoply of the state behind them, with a hugely politicized civil service, courts and army, and are using them against political opponents. Nobody's saying they can't arrest people who carry out violent attacks.
Forgive me - I must have missed everyone giving a shit about Venezuela before today.

Let's put aside the fact that the very same point could have been made about the IRA and the British government, which didn't make the former automatically right in all cases and the latter automatically wrong.

Despite the 'whole panoply of the (Venezuelan) state' being behind the government, deaths attributed directly to the government side in the unrest this year total 14, out of a total number of deaths of 115. The opposition leaders, already imprisoned for incitement to violence, abused the conditions of their release from prison to house arrest to call for further violence and illegal resistance. They have a significant 'panoply' of another state behind them, that of the US, which supported the illegal coup in 2002 and has been funding the opposition ever since. The US of course has a track record in this sort of thing, not least in Chile, of which the parallels to the current situation in Venezuela are increasingly concerning. The opposition is also supported by large companies that have been proven to illegally hoard basic goods at a time of significant shortages and high prices - at best to speculate on rising prices, at worst to increase the misery of the government's natural base and encourage it to unrest.

But sure, let's focus on the government to the exclusion of everything else. I'm sure your concern has nothing whatsoever to do with an irrational hatred of Corbyn.

What's the deal? I didn't like the cut of Corbyn's suit or his beard, and disliked him? Or I was driven "irrational" by Liz Kendall not being leader?

How about this? I don't like him because I don't like his repeated habit of lining up behind anybody who can bang out a tune about US imperialism. It gets much worse than Venezuela too. See Stop The War, passim. These objections to Corbyn were raised by lots of people when he became leader. So don't tell me that I discovered Venezuela last week.

I'm interested that this is driven by American interference. Because, you know what I'd have done if I was Jeremy Corbyn? I'd have been calling it out because it was proving me right about foreign policy. This is what he actually did: he dropped Venezuela like a stone as soon as he clocked it would be an embarrassment to his leadership ambitions.

He then deleted stuff he'd written about it. He then shut up until he was forced to say something, and (surprise, surprise) it's vague stuff about "dialogue". And you know what I'd do if I'd been close enough to Maduro and Chavez to do the publicity stunts he and Livingstone did? I'd lay on the criticism very thick, because it might have an effect.

Chavez was corruptly chucking oil money about to win short short term support, and it was always going to go tits up. He'd already cost the country a fortune by messing up oil production during the boom. Plenty of people said so, and different people who'd been supportive got the message gradually. Podemos, for one, turned v Maduro in 2014. Corbyn didn't listen, and has apparently only now realized that they "should have diversified the economy".

Pardon me if I find the above deeply unimpressive on his part.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Tue 08 Aug, 2017 8:26 pm

a deeply unimpressive response

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 08 Aug, 2017 8:35 pm

Per their letter to other Latin American governments, they think the government's killed rather more than 14. They say 99. They direct their anger against the government.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 08 Aug, 2017 8:35 pm

What about Tubby's points,though?.Or are you suggesting,ignore on the basis he doesn't like Corbyn.Try an experiment,take Corbyn out replace by x.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Tue 08 Aug, 2017 8:43 pm

A reminder of a previous Government violence from earlier this decade.....still being run by a military junta

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiap ... index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Populist PM overthrown and then violence been going on since then on and off

Don't remember this being the end of the world and the number 1 subject of discussion with cries for condemnation

It suggests this has nothing to do with Venezuela but an opportunity to attack Corbyn.........carry on Tubby and Hugo.....your predictions of the impact of all the other things have been pretty crap so carry on please and support the Greens, Plaid or who ever it is this week

He has undeniably a tendency to have a romantic view of some of these Governments who promise to roll back the inequality that is so manifest in these type of countries......but rather that than the cynical approach to the world of someone like Blair wholied to us, took us to war, abetted rendition, cosies up to Kazakh dictators and tried to undermine our law to protect the Saudis

Corbyn's comments seem small beer by comparison

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Tue 08 Aug, 2017 8:45 pm

HindleA wrote:What about Tubby's points,though?.Or are you suggesting,ignore on the basis he doesn't like Corbyn.Try an experiment,take Corbyn out replace by x.

IIt was just a bit of a rant against Corbyn....as my last one was a bit against Blair......but I don't try to maintain an air of superiority

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Tue 08 Aug, 2017 8:51 pm

HindleA wrote:I wonder if there was any comeback for SH for breaching his just ignore him policy.Though he returned to it,swiftly.If only I can think of a reason for choosing that one.

On the mention of people being put off,of course the reasons vary sometimes for the complete opposite of each other,haven't seen tc2,for a while.I hope they weren't put off completely.And no,that wasn't a blaming of anybody thing.I view everybody regardless with equal.disdain.

I think tc2 said something about being in need of a holiday. Which suggests a temporary breather or possibly an actual holiday. I'm off on the latter myself next week, so keeping fingers crossed for some decent August weather for a change.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Tue 08 Aug, 2017 8:52 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:

Per their letter to other Latin American governments, they think the government's killed rather more than 14. They say 99. They direct their anger against the government.

An impressive list....who are they all? With the US history of using front organisations in Latin America are you confident that they are not being used in this way?

There is much murky in this part of the world and forgive me if I am skeptical of anything in the fog of a potential civil war

I don't think anyone disputes that the Government of Venezuela is not an innocent party...in fact they have not been innocent since inception but Venezuela is not a normal country either.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 08 Aug, 2017 9:00 pm

Corbyn made his statement yesterday. So it's directly topical. When things are directly topical they get commented upon more than something a decade ago.

He got a strong letter from left-wing activists (in Labour and beyond) about his weak condemnation of Assad and Putin. He beefed his position up, and we moved on. He can do the same here and we'll move on.

It's up to him. I'm bothered about this and (sometimes, sometimes not) the EU policy. Everything else, I'm either happy with or not that bothered about. I stuck up for him on tuition fees today.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 08 Aug, 2017 9:10 pm

@willow cheers for info.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 08 Aug, 2017 9:16 pm

Yeah but I always have ranted about the different managers,I don't like the coupling with Hugo,such things just feed the cult misrepresentation thing.I don't view Tubby in the same light at all.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 08 Aug, 2017 9:26 pm

@willow and have a good time,yourself.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 08 Aug, 2017 9:35 pm

Now have vision of clangers in various swimming costume poses.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 08 Aug, 2017 9:42 pm

Bum again.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 08 Aug, 2017 9:53 pm

I'd noticed tinyclanger2's absence, too.

Speaking of absences - I haven't noticed citizenJA being here for the past couple of days.

Edited - typo

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 08 Aug, 2017 10:12 pm

Night night.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Tue 08 Aug, 2017 10:21 pm

HindleA wrote:I view everybody regardless with equal.disdain.

I don't.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 08 Aug, 2017 10:23 pm

PF night night.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 08 Aug, 2017 10:37 pm

Official Statistics
Living abroad: dynamics of migration between Britain and France

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistic ... and-france" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 08 Aug, 2017 10:40 pm

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistic ... t-40-years" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Official Statistics
What has happened to the income of retired households over the past 40 years?