Tuesday 15th August 2017

Post by **refitman** » Tue 15 Aug, 2017 7:09 am

Morning all.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Tue 15 Aug, 2017 8:33 am

Henry Leslie Smith

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ach-hitler" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 15 Aug, 2017 8:50 am

So Davis' latest is that we have a transitional deal that basically lets us stay in the EU.

BUT at the same time we are free to negotiate unilateral trade deals.

Anyone think Brussels will go for that?

Or am I misunderstanding the genius of the government position?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 15 Aug, 2017 9:10 am

Morning

http://www.picovine.com/essex-council-p ... they-fall/#" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Essex Council Proposes £25.92 ‘Lifting Charge’ To Assist Elderly Up When They Fall

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 15 Aug, 2017 9:17 am

http://www.egi.co.uk/news/eg-research-h ... tion-rent/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PRS will not solve the housing crisis

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 15 Aug, 2017 9:22 am

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... -inflation" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ONS inflation data published today prompts fears that government-regulated fares could rise at fastest rate for five years

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Tue 15 Aug, 2017 9:23 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:So Davis' latest is that we have a transitional deal that basically lets us stay in the EU.

BUT at the same time we are free to negotiate unilateral trade deals.

Anyone think Brussels will go for that?

Or am I misunderstanding the genius of the government position?

What they are asking for is that we leave the Single Market and Customs Union but have exactly the same benefits of both.

The identical position to Labour.

It makes no sense at all of course.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 15 Aug, 2017 9:24 am

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... emes-qrops" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Guidance
Overseas pensions: recognised overseas pension schemes notification list

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 15 Aug, 2017 9:32 am

UK inflation unexpectedly holds steady at 2.6% in July-

The retail price index has climbed to a higher than expected 3.6%.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 15 Aug, 2017 9:38 am

SpinningHugo wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:So Davis' latest is that we have a transitional deal that basically lets us stay in the EU.

BUT at the same time we are free to negotiate unilateral trade deals.

Anyone think Brussels will go for that?

Or am I misunderstanding the genius of the government position?

What they are asking for is that we leave the Single Market and Customs Union but have exactly the same benefits of both.

The identical position to Labour.

It makes no sense at all of course.

Of course you know the position is not the same.

Labour's position is that if we leave the EU, which we have to assume for the time being that we are because there was a referendum, then we want to retain those benefits.

Now meanwhile back at the Tory chaos, or "constructive ambiguity" as it's now called....

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Tue 15 Aug, 2017 9:49 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote: Labour's position is that if we leave the EU, which we have to assume for the time being that we are because there was a referendum, then we want to retain those benefits.
.

That misstates Labour's position. See the manifesto and every statement from Labour on this. It is Labour policy that we are leaving the EU, because the referendum result must be respected. That is one reason why there was a three line whip to invoke art 50 without conditions.

Labour's press release on the Tory proposals by the useless Starmer is comic

http://press.labour.org.uk/post/1641887 ... oposals-on" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Tory proposals are "incoherent and inadequate". Quite right they are. All good so far. And Labour's alternative?

Leaving the single market and the customs union, whilst retaining exactly the same benefits.

ie the Tory position.

At least the Brexiters are honest in their desire to leave and their expression of it.

This is why Labour is getting no traction from the Tory mess. They don't disagree and have no coherent alternative plan. Mainly because there isn't one.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 15 Aug, 2017 9:56 am

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-h ... -june-2017" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

UK House Price Index (HPI) for June 2017

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 15 Aug, 2017 9:58 am

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistic ... y-aug-2017" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Additional economic analysis of the latest CPI, PPI, HPI and IPHRP headline statistics and long-term trends.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 15 Aug, 2017 9:59 am

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistic ... 17-england" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Patient-Led Assessments of the Care Environment (PLACE) - 2017 - England

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 15 Aug, 2017 10:10 am

SpinningHugo wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote: Labour's position is that if we leave the EU, which we have to assume for the time being that we are because there was a referendum, then we want to retain those benefits.
That misstates Labour's position. See the manifesto and every statement from Labour on this. It is Labour policy that we are leaving the EU, because the referendum result must be respected. That is one reason why there was a three line whip to invoke art 50 without conditions.

Labour's press release on the Tory proposals by the useless Starmer is comic

http://press.labour.org.uk/post/1641887 ... oposals-on" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Tory proposals are "incoherent and inadequate". Quite right they are. All good so far. And Labour's alternative?

Leaving the single market and the customs union, whilst retaining exactly the same benefits.

ie the Tory position.

At least the Brexiters are honest in their desire to leave and their expression of it.

This is why Labour is getting no traction from the Tory mess. They don't disagree and have no coherent alternative plan. Mainly because there isn't one.

Compare and contrast the two bits in bold italic.

But of course you are right, because, well, you just are. And I am wrong, because I'm stupid.

Anyway, back at the Tory chaos, otherwise known as "constructive ambiguity"......

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Tue 15 Aug, 2017 10:15 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote: Compare and contrast the two bits in bold italic.

But of course you are right, because, well, you just are. And I am wrong, because I'm stupid.

Anyway, back at the Tory chaos, otherwise known as "constructive ambiguity"......

Let me explain the difference then.

Labour's policy is that there is no "if" about it. We are leaving the EU.

I don't understand what you think the difference between Tory and Labour is? Both want us to leave the single market and customs union whilst retaining all the benefits of both. Completely incoherent.

I don't think you're stupid. I just think party loyalty makes you want to really believe you're on the right side. When, unfortunately, on the biggest issue facing the UK, especially the poorest, you're not.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 15 Aug, 2017 10:15 am

"Have you just farted?"

"No,I was being constructively ambiguous"

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 15 Aug, 2017 10:18 am

Morning all.

I've nothing of note to say at the moment, just checking in.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Tue 15 Aug, 2017 10:51 am

Rather good on student fees

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/ed ... ees-debate" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Tue 15 Aug, 2017 10:56 am

Let me spell this out in bold (again!)

At the end of March 2019 we are leaving the EU

At the moment there is nothing that will change this - we have given legal notice and in order to prevent this there will have to be a revocation that is supported (in some undefined way) by the British people

That is relatively simple

On the day we leave the EU then we are no longer subject to the relevant treaties and the access to the EU internal market - as well as all the derogations we have negotiated - will end

There may be on that date or a later one an agreement that will define what are access rights are to the internal market which can include everything from no level of participation over and above defined in WTO all the way up to the participation levels of a full EU member (Single Market, Custom's Union and Schengen for example)

I happen to agree that it will be extremely difficult to get the EU to agree with the UK having the same access rights as they have now but the agreement will be completely bespoke as there is no EEA/EFTA non-member of the EU that is a full part of the CU or is not a member of Schengen.

I think any party that is not in the position to influence the negotiations -as Labour aren't at the moment - can only logically set out a general position on what they would/wouldn't accept and then support/oppose the detail based on that. This is what Labour has done

The time to challenge Labour's position is when the do not comply with those conditions - something that has not come to pass yet, although with these laughable 'position papers' coming out we may actually see something more concrete

To continually post that there is no difference between a party that has almost total control of the negotiations for the UK and is the one setting the agenda, with one that will react to the outcomes suggests a lacking in intellectual dexterity

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Tue 15 Aug, 2017 11:06 am

Very interesting on internal migration within the UK, see map at page 13 especially

http://www.resolutionfoundation.org/app ... ove-on.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Tue 15 Aug, 2017 11:09 am

Let us call the 'Graduate Tax' - an 'getting an education tax' or 'wanting to fulfil capability tax' instead so we can be clear what it is actually doing.

I would also like to challenge this assumption that graduates earn massively more than non-graduates any more - I know that for my generation (mid-40s) that those who left school at 16 and joined companies at that point had 8 years of earning potential over me, as well as very generous pensions allowing them to retire at 50 (until a few years ago) or 55 as is now - I will be working until almost 70 in probability even though I am one of those supposed to be earning more.

Yes, the tuition fees removal may be a bit simplistic but then just charging huge amounts is the same - what it suggests to me that those who have designed the system that has led to such a shambles are to blame - and that goes back 20 years or more. What is not right is that students come out with this huge nominal burden of debt

Of course somebody from a university administration loves tuition fees - look at the salaries it is funding for them!

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 15 Aug, 2017 11:13 am

StephenDolan wrote:Morning all.

I've nothing of note to say at the moment, just checking in.

I know the feeling

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 15 Aug, 2017 11:32 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
StephenDolan wrote:Morning all.

I've nothing of note to say at the moment, just checking in.
I know the feeling

Me too
Good-morning, everyone

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Tue 15 Aug, 2017 11:48 am

So, I was at number 1 in Historical Fiction + No 2 in satire on Amazon free kindle charts over the weekend, beating both Voltaire's Candide and A Tale of Two Cities into 3rd/2nd respectively.

Book 2 is being launched in Oliver Cromwell's House at the end of September if anyone is close to Ely.

http://www.olivercromwellshouse.co.uk/i ... ll&id=2650" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Tue 15 Aug, 2017 11:54 am

Temulkar wrote:So, I was at number 1 in Historical Fiction + No 2 in satire on Amazon free kindle charts over the weekend, beating both Voltaire's Candide and A Tale of Two Cities into 3rd/2nd respectively.

Book 2 is being launched in Oliver Cromwell's House at the end of September if anyone is close to Ely.

http://www.olivercromwellshouse.co.uk/i ... ll&id=2650" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

well done Tem, looking forward to it

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 15 Aug, 2017 12:01 pm

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... -published" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Grenfell Tower Inquiry terms of reference published

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Tue 15 Aug, 2017 12:07 pm

Hello.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"No10 says Donald Trump's statements on white supremacists are 'a matter for him'"

What No.10 *does* care about:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39487307" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 15 Aug, 2017 12:08 pm

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... ds#history" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HS2 property schemes guidance(updated)

A guide for property schemes available to people affected by the High Speed Two (HS2) railway.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 15 Aug, 2017 12:13 pm

NonOxCol wrote:Hello.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"No10 says Donald Trump's statements on white supremacists are 'a matter for him'"

What No.10 *does* care about:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39487307" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yes, that latter episode was when "Mother of The Nation" Theresa could do no wrong in the eyes of our commentariat. Many cited that silliness as evidence of her political brilliance.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 15 Aug, 2017 12:24 pm

http://www.independent.co.uk/money/spen ... 84481.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Right To Buy millionaires highlight flawed housing lottery in UK

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 15 Aug, 2017 12:34 pm

Trump himself is purporting in public to believe Nazis are bad. May could easily have backed what he said yesterday.

Useless PM. Useless.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 15 Aug, 2017 12:37 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:Trump himself is purporting in public to believe Nazis are bad. May could easily have backed what he said yesterday.

Useless PM. Useless.

And on this one at least, she looks bad compared to Corbyn.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 15 Aug, 2017 12:43 pm

She looks bad compared to Corbyn on everything. Problems he has are left over positions from when he could back any old rubbish. Mostly nobody cares about that. I thought they would but they don't.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Tue 15 Aug, 2017 12:46 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:She looks bad compared to Corbyn on everything. Problems he has are left over positions from when he could back any old rubbish. Mostly nobody cares about that. I thought they would but they don't.

She is an astonishingly incompetent politician.

The Tory strategy is clearly to keep her out of the headlines. Long holiday, followed by long trip to the other side of the world.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 15 Aug, 2017 12:47 pm

Government position paper on future customs arrangements.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... ship-paper" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Tue 15 Aug, 2017 12:59 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:Government position paper on future customs arrangements.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... ship-paper" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Commission's response was predictable. They aren't interested until the exit bill is settled.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 15 Aug, 2017 1:49 pm

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... 2018-guide" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Guidance
Alternative provision census 2018: guide

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 15 Aug, 2017 1:53 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... n-expenses" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Date set for Conservative MP's trial over election expenses
Craig Mackinlay faces trial in May next year charged with knowingly making false expenses declarations

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 15 Aug, 2017 1:55 pm

"Chappers" has gone right weird.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 15 Aug, 2017 2:02 pm

https://www.ripfa.org.uk/blog/the-impac ... cial-care/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The impact of kindness in adult social care

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 15 Aug, 2017 2:36 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... ardest-hit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

More on house prices

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 15 Aug, 2017 2:43 pm

This reminded me of Cameron jumping on the bandwagon of computer coding. Since he's gone I've heard not a peep about it.

Coding for kids: another silly fad

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion ... e35982667/

Next to babies, politicians love innovation more than anything. Innovation invariably means high tech and computers. And the hottest innovation in education these days is teaching kids to code. Coding skills, we’re told, are a fundamental building block of 21st-century literacy – right up there with reading, writing and arithmetic. Coding skills will make people more employable and the nation more competitive.

From a Cameron speech in 2013.

For the first time – children in our schools will learn the new language of computer coding.

Utter piffle.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Tue 15 Aug, 2017 2:47 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:"Chappers" has gone right weird.

I liked his tweet the other day, he wanted a debate with Mogg, he said 'it's Saturday. We can wear single-breasted suits'.

I assume that's who you mean.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Tue 15 Aug, 2017 2:50 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:"Chappers" has gone right weird.

Great, isn't it?

The 'Democrats' thing is a joke I think (see his linking it with Southampton FC).

His point that our elected representatives have badly let us down on Brexit is right though. With a few exceptions (mainly women, Mary Creagh, Caroline Lucas) they have been an absolute disgrace, playing for party advantage and smashing the country, especially the poor.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 15 Aug, 2017 3:10 pm

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... sal-brexit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

european-minister-pours-cold-water-on-uk-interim-trade-proposal-brexit

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Tue 15 Aug, 2017 3:21 pm

The poor have been being 'smashed' since well before the EU referendum and is one of the reasons t a lot of these people voted to 'Leave'

Perhaps if some of the cheerleaders for 'austerity' and also those supported the view that it was caused by excess public sending had listened to what was being said then we could have avoided that vote

Some of those people were on the right of the Labour Party as well as Tories

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 15 Aug, 2017 3:52 pm

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultat ... sis-survey" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

UK Cyber Security Sectoral Analysis Survey

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 15 Aug, 2017 3:55 pm

Hard Brexit makes deepest Labour right austerity look like the teddy bear's picnic.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 15 Aug, 2017 4:03 pm

Wasn't particularly constructively ambiguous towards attemped Tory leafletter just then,maybe I need lessons.