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PostPosted: Sun 20 Aug, 2017 3:43 pm 
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https://www.twotogether-railcard.co.uk/

Costs £30, saves a third. Would have paid for itself easily on this one trip.

It's very annoying if you don't know about this.


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PostPosted: Sun 20 Aug, 2017 3:50 pm 
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See here on Stoke HS2. It's also in Rail Magazine, so it is accurate:

http://www.stokesentinel.co.uk/hs2-trai ... story.html

There's a graphic that I think I understand. It seems to be that trains from Liverpool and Preston that would have each used an HS2 train path join together at Crewe. That frees up a train path from Stoke on HS2.

Image

This is a good example of HS2 serving lots more places than people think. Not all obvious places either- Preston, Warrington, Runcorn.


Last edited by Tubby Isaacs on Sun 20 Aug, 2017 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun 20 Aug, 2017 3:51 pm 
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I don't know why it is annoying that I don't know about this but we didn't even know that we were going there at the same time

The issue I have is that it cost me £120 for a single ticket....that is daylight robbery whatever you look at it

On a smelly, cramped and dirty train


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PostPosted: Sun 20 Aug, 2017 3:53 pm 
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SpinningHugo wrote:
Pricing should be done on the commercial basis airlines operate on. Rail has moved towards that, but there are still too many regulated parts of the system preventing that (eg the 'off-peak' cliff edge).


I'm not sure. The big achievement has been to have much more frequent trains running. We've now got a system in lots of places where you don't have to worry about checking a timetable before you go to the station. Whenever you're ready, you could turn up to the station at your convenience and wait not all that long. But you have to buy a ticket ages in advance. That doesn't make sense.


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PostPosted: Sun 20 Aug, 2017 4:06 pm 
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Didn't the journey go via Reading?

The station and surround was rebuilt, and it can now take 4 trains extra per hour in each direction. It's got passive provision for "Airtrack" as well, which would enable direct train services to Heathrow, which would make my journey to Heathrow much quicker. Bracknell would get a direct service to Heathrow out of that too.


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PostPosted: Sun 20 Aug, 2017 4:16 pm 
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Tubby Isaacs wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
bad government is the reason we don't have nice things

It's not in this case. It's the government not subsidizing ticket prices. It chooses to subsidize investment instead, and its been very successful on its own terms of getting money into rail and expanding the number of trains running and the passenger numbers. The downside has been that old rolling stock has had to be kept going longer than necessary. But there's a very good ongoing programme for new stuff:

<New-train-orders-table table>

The downside is tickets are expensive especially when you have to buy at short notice. I'd happily pay more tax to reduce that.
(cJA edit & emphasis)
Yes, me too. Public infrastructure - health & social care, energy, transportation, communications, affordable, securely-tenured housing, education - all are part of civilised society and all people benefit from these properly funded, competently provided services.

You're more knowledgeable about the fiscal investments than I am. I appreciate your guidance.


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PostPosted: Sun 20 Aug, 2017 4:18 pm 
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Even if trains aren't any quicker than years ago, they're a lot more frequent. In particular, Sundays in the UK have pretty full services by international standards, because Sunday is less "special" here than in eg France. Huddersfield to Manchester has 3 fast direct services per hour on a Sunday, plus one slow, and something like 144 all day in the week. That's pretty impressive. You can just turn up even on a Sunday, and there'll be a train along very soon. No need to plan what you do all day around the train.

Which is why I don't think it makes so much sense to have to book trains in advance so you don't get ripped off.


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PostPosted: Sun 20 Aug, 2017 4:19 pm 
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howsillyofme1 wrote:
I find this 'who don't do the travelling to pay through taxation for those that do' argument nauseating to be honest

If we start looking at the funding of society being transactional then we become a very unpleasant and petty place - this is Thatcherite thinking at its most appalling


It is depressing that some centre-leftists (in think tanks and so on) have been beguiled by this sort of thinking.

Similar to the debate over universal benefits v means testing - the former is right in principle for all major welfare provision. Moreover, it has been shown to work.


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PostPosted: Sun 20 Aug, 2017 4:19 pm 
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Tubby Isaacs wrote:
Didn't the journey go via Reading?

The station and surround was rebuilt, and it can now take 4 trains extra per hour in each direction. It's got passive provision for "Airtrack" as well, which would enable direct train services to Heathrow, which would make my journey to Heathrow much quicker. Bracknell would get a direct service to Heathrow out of that too.


No it didn't and bloody glad I am too because the Reading -> Manchester trains are usually 5 carriages even less room that others.

And all is is promises and possibilities - let us see some improvements outside the M25

People have been talking about all these massive improvements we will see on the trains since I have been using them and I have seen very little improvements over the years and any that have been seen are massively outweighed by the fares to be paid

The British rail ticketing system is complex (purposely so in my view) and the service is pretty dire

Imagine if the cost of car journeys had increased at the same rate and we had actually managed to get more people out of cars - luckily car use has reduced why public transport has increased massively

Bus prices are not much better than trains - in fact if there are two or more people it makes sense to get a taxi in a lot of places


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PostPosted: Sun 20 Aug, 2017 4:23 pm 
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Tubby Isaacs wrote:
Citizen, could be some good news for Stoke coming. I don't properly understand it but it could get HS2 trains if the new Crewe Station is built in a certain way. It seems that trains to stoke would go Euston, Old Oak Common, Stafford, Stoke, Macclesfield. That would be very quick.

Good to know, Tubby Isaacs, thank you. For crying out loud. The UK could be the world leader in public transportation provision, everyone having a choice and a realistic option to owning a motor vehicle. Less pollution and stress, fewer god-awful traffic snarls and road fatalities, public thoroughfares freed up for people


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PostPosted: Sun 20 Aug, 2017 4:24 pm 
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citizenJA wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
bad government is the reason we don't have nice things

It's not in this case. It's the government not subsidizing ticket prices. It chooses to subsidize investment instead, and its been very successful on its own terms of getting money into rail and expanding the number of trains running and the passenger numbers. The downside has been that old rolling stock has had to be kept going longer than necessary. But there's a very good ongoing programme for new stuff:

<New-train-orders-table table>

The downside is tickets are expensive especially when you have to buy at short notice. I'd happily pay more tax to reduce that.
(cJA edit & emphasis)
Yes, me too. Public infrastructure - health & social care, energy, transportation, communications, affordable, securely-tenured housing, education - all are part of civilised society and all people benefit from these properly funded, competently provided services.

You're more knowledgeable about the fiscal investments than I am. I appreciate your guidance.


Cheers. The only thing to know really is that we're doing reasonably well with new investment in rail but we've basically taken the money away from ticket subsidies to pay for it. There is stuff being done to replace old crap trains, but it's taken longer than it should.


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PostPosted: Sun 20 Aug, 2017 4:25 pm 
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howsillyofme1 wrote:
I find this 'who don't do the travelling to pay through taxation for those that do' argument nauseating to be honest

If we start looking at the funding of society being transactional then we become a very unpleasant and petty place - this is Thatcherite thinking at its most appalling
(cJA edit)
Exactly, that's my position too.


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PostPosted: Sun 20 Aug, 2017 4:29 pm 
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Tubby Isaacs wrote:
https://www.twotogether-railcard.co.uk/

Costs £30, saves a third. Would have paid for itself easily on this one trip.

It's very annoying if you don't know about this.

Be merciful ('to be fair' whatever the saying is) both got to travel together at the same time, no exemptions, no substitutions


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PostPosted: Sun 20 Aug, 2017 4:31 pm 
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
I find this 'who don't do the travelling to pay through taxation for those that do' argument nauseating to be honest

If we start looking at the funding of society being transactional then we become a very unpleasant and petty place - this is Thatcherite thinking at its most appalling
It is depressing that some centre-leftists (in think tanks and so on) have been beguiled by this sort of thinking.

Similar to the debate over universal benefits v means testing - the former is right in principle for all major welfare provision. Moreover, it has been shown to work.

Hear, hear!


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PostPosted: Sun 20 Aug, 2017 4:33 pm 
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citizenJA wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
Citizen, could be some good news for Stoke coming. I don't properly understand it but it could get HS2 trains if the new Crewe Station is built in a certain way. It seems that trains to stoke would go Euston, Old Oak Common, Stafford, Stoke, Macclesfield. That would be very quick.

Good to know, Tubby Isaacs, thank you. For crying out loud. The UK could be the world leader in public transportation provision, everyone having a choice and a realistic option to owning a motor vehicle. Less pollution and stress, fewer god-awful traffic snarls and road fatalities, public thoroughfares freed up for people


Yep. This week I had a rare taste of commuter traffic (as a passenger, I can't drive) and it was awful. I couldn't see any obvious way of increasing road capacity either. So it'll have to be trains.


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PostPosted: Sun 20 Aug, 2017 4:39 pm 
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
I find this 'who don't do the travelling to pay through taxation for those that do' argument nauseating to be honest

If we start looking at the funding of society being transactional then we become a very unpleasant and petty place - this is Thatcherite thinking at its most appalling


It is depressing that some centre-leftists (in think tanks and so on) have been beguiled by this sort of thinking.

Similar to the debate over universal benefits v means testing - the former is right in principle for all major welfare provision. Moreover, it has been shown to work.


It's not that less money is being spent on rail though. It's been redeployed to investment rather than keeping ticket prices down. The taxpayer is still looking at rail and considering it a thing worth spending public money on.


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PostPosted: Sun 20 Aug, 2017 4:41 pm 
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Noticed some Swiss trains have a "companion" service,not sure exactly how it works,maybe a linking up of people offerring/requesting thing.


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PostPosted: Sun 20 Aug, 2017 4:45 pm 
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Tubby Isaacs wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
I find this 'who don't do the travelling to pay through taxation for those that do' argument nauseating to be honest

If we start looking at the funding of society being transactional then we become a very unpleasant and petty place - this is Thatcherite thinking at its most appalling


It is depressing that some centre-leftists (in think tanks and so on) have been beguiled by this sort of thinking.

Similar to the debate over universal benefits v means testing - the former is right in principle for all major welfare provision. Moreover, it has been shown to work.


It's not that less money is being spent on rail though. It's been redeployed to investment rather than keeping ticket prices down. The taxpayer is still looking at rail and considering it a thing worth spending public money on.


The response was not to your points which are all perfectly well made and reasonable - rather from SH who indicated that the costs should all fall on the users and not general taxation


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PostPosted: Sun 20 Aug, 2017 4:47 pm 
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howsillyofme1 wrote:
---
The British rail ticketing system is complex (purposely so in my view) and the service is pretty dire

Imagine if the cost of car journeys had increased at the same rate and we had actually managed to get more people out of cars - luckily car use has reduced why public transport has increased massively

Bus prices are not much better than trains - in fact if there are two or more people it makes sense to get a taxi in a lot of places
(cJA edit)
I'm with you on current public transportation provision being inadequate. I'm pretty adept at navigating online systems and completing complex documentation. It's not good enough, UK public transportation ticketing and service provision. It doesn't have to be this way. You're right on about the taxi thing. That a cab for two or more adults is often less expensive than other public transportation services isn't sustainable. It's not efficient use of resources and the world burns.


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PostPosted: Sun 20 Aug, 2017 4:53 pm 
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I find this works well over here - I have not found something similar in UK - does it exist? I have used the Trainline but you mainly have to pick up the tickets - some routes have e-tickets

https://www.micro.sbb.ch/mobile/en/home.html

All the available tickets are shown (including supersavers which can be available up to not long before the journey - a few hours) and you can buy them for all travel companions

There is also a maximum fare for a day (you essentially can by a General day pass for all trains, buses and boats for a day for CHF127 or CHF182 1st Class) but you need a half price card which is CHF185 pa although virtually everyone has one of these and they are also tax deductible in most circumstances


Last edited by howsillyofme1 on Sun 20 Aug, 2017 4:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun 20 Aug, 2017 4:53 pm 
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We didn't have any option but to use trains for any distance,not just a price consideration of course but practical possibility making it more expensive given that for a not insignificant number on the basis of supposed selfish/unfairness a bit rum IMHO.We had to pre book to ensure but got a third off.


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PostPosted: Sun 20 Aug, 2017 4:56 pm 
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Ah OK.

I think one thing that could happen more, but which they have tried to do, is raise more tax revenue locally to where the improved services will happen. Crossrail 2 is important, but when people from outside London look at that, it does look unfair and probably is. Half of it, I think, is intended to come from London, but maybe it could be more, and more from the counties that will benefit from it too.

Poorer areas obviously would have to contribute less to local schemes.


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PostPosted: Sun 20 Aug, 2017 4:57 pm 
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So just looked

Can get a 1st class single to Geneva Airport tonight at 9 pm (a journey of around 90 mins) for CHF 24.50 (around £18 due to the disastrous change rate), or 2nd class for CHF14 - just over a tenner


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PostPosted: Sun 20 Aug, 2017 4:59 pm 
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I appreciate the Two Together Railcard. When travelling alone or not the full journey it's not a benefit.

edited to add


Last edited by citizenJA on Sun 20 Aug, 2017 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun 20 Aug, 2017 5:01 pm 
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An affordable UK public transportation pass good for all public transportation methods within the UK
That'd be a good start


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PostPosted: Sun 20 Aug, 2017 5:07 pm 
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Tubby Isaacs wrote:
Ah OK.

I think one thing that could happen more, but which they have tried to do, is raise more tax revenue locally to where the improved services will happen. Crossrail 2 is important, but when people from outside London look at that, it does look unfair and probably is. Half of it, I think, is intended to come from London, but maybe it could be more, and more from the counties that will benefit from it too.

Poorer areas obviously would have to contribute less to local schemes.

The last time I checked, 2010 was the last year Stoke-on-Trent bus services received any government subsidy
I don't have the link I found that information, apologies
I've no problem admitting error if I'm wrong about it


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PostPosted: Sun 20 Aug, 2017 5:08 pm 
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So over here we have two main rail passes - these are also available to visitors but there are alternatives for them that may make more sense. the half price card can pay for itself in a few journeys

Demi-tarif (half price) - does what it says for all trains, buses and boats with some very rare exceptions CHF185pa (£150)
GA - this is as above but allows for unlimited travel on the same as above CHF3680 (£2850) 2nd class CHF6300 (£4850) 1st class

There are no peak time restrictions - the only exceptions are on some private railways such as the one up the Jungfraujoch. If you buy one then the partner card is available 30% off and there are 30-50% reductions for young people and students


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PostPosted: Sun 20 Aug, 2017 5:09 pm 
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http://www.dml.sbb.ch/en/en/travelcards ... rview.html

If anyone is interested...and yes you do have to have tickets for dogs...


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PostPosted: Sun 20 Aug, 2017 5:15 pm 
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Accessible,stairs etc,don't discriminate according to income level.


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PostPosted: Sun 20 Aug, 2017 5:20 pm 
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citizenJA wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
Ah OK.

I think one thing that could happen more, but which they have tried to do, is raise more tax revenue locally to where the improved services will happen. Crossrail 2 is important, but when people from outside London look at that, it does look unfair and probably is. Half of it, I think, is intended to come from London, but maybe it could be more, and more from the counties that will benefit from it too.

Poorer areas obviously would have to contribute less to local schemes.

The last time I checked, 2010 was the last year Stoke-on-Trent bus services received any government subsidy
I don't have the link I found that information, apologies
I've no problem admitting error if I'm wrong about it


That's awful, and all too plausible.

I was thinking more of new schemes. Having Stoke chuck in for HS2 would be harsh.

I see Wolverhampton to Stafford is about 13 minutes, and quite frequent. Stafford to Euston should be less than an hour. So that could be positive for Wolverhampton. The problem is that the scary pricetag of big schemes, well, scares people. And "extra" bits like the much longer platform at Crewe don't get built to save money, and you dont get the full benefits. Stafford's rail connections are an asset waiting to happen. Lichfield, Tamworth, straight away jump out at me.


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PostPosted: Sun 20 Aug, 2017 5:23 pm 
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Cats?


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PostPosted: Sun 20 Aug, 2017 5:23 pm 
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Tubby Isaacs wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
Ah OK.

I think one thing that could happen more, but which they have tried to do, is raise more tax revenue locally to where the improved services will happen. Crossrail 2 is important, but when people from outside London look at that, it does look unfair and probably is. Half of it, I think, is intended to come from London, but maybe it could be more, and more from the counties that will benefit from it too.

Poorer areas obviously would have to contribute less to local schemes.

The last time I checked, 2010 was the last year Stoke-on-Trent bus services received any government subsidy
I don't have the link I found that information, apologies
I've no problem admitting error if I'm wrong about it


That's awful, and all too plausible.

I was thinking more of new schemes. Having Stoke chuck in for HS2 would be harsh.

I see Wolverhampton to Stafford is about 13 minutes, and quite frequent. Stafford to Euston should be less than an hour. So that could be positive for Wolverhampton. The problem is that the scary pricetag of big schemes, well, scares people. And "extra" bits like the much longer platform at Crewe don't get built to save money, and you dont get the full benefits. Stafford's rail connections are an asset waiting to happen. Lichfield, Tamworth, straight away jump out at me.



The other issue is that most people do not live near Wolverhampton train station so that 15 min journey turns into an hour or more when added together with journey to the train station. Some buses only go every 30 minutes and so this can easily grow into almost 90 minutes door to door to Stafford - unless you want to drive when it is is around 25 but that is hardly what people should be doing

What is stupid is I lived at the Stafford end of Wolves (right on the border with South Staffs) but to get to Stafford when I worked there in evolved a 30 min bus trip to Wolverhampton and then a 50 min bus trip out to Stafford - with a potential long wait in between

This is the problem - all well and good looking at journeys between train stations but that isn't where people actually live and the bus services to a lot of those areas are abysmal


Last edited by howsillyofme1 on Sun 20 Aug, 2017 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun 20 Aug, 2017 5:24 pm 
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"It's a cat that thinks it's a dog,honest"


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PostPosted: Sun 20 Aug, 2017 5:27 pm 
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I love train rides
I wish I could use them more frequently
the UK is a beautiful country


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PostPosted: Sun 20 Aug, 2017 5:28 pm 
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https://flipchartfairytales.wordpress.c ... m-britain/


Sitcom Britain


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PostPosted: Sun 20 Aug, 2017 5:28 pm 
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HindleA wrote:
"It's a cat that thinks it's a dog,honest"


Probably not - I pay CHF200 dog tax per dog per year - cats are free!

I am going to throw a bit of oddness in as well - I think it only applies for dogs not in a bag - yes a lot of people have toy dogs that fit into specially made bags to be carried around!

Really very very odd


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PostPosted: Sun 20 Aug, 2017 5:29 pm 
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citizenJA wrote:
I love train rides
I wish I could use them more frequently
the UK is a beautiful country


East Coast Mainline - Newcastle to Edinburgh - sit on the right hand side going North and vice versa for South - magnificent


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PostPosted: Sun 20 Aug, 2017 5:30 pm 
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Oh hang on, I got that wrong. Stafford HS2 doesn't depend on the work at Crewe at all. It's Stoke HS2 that does.

Come on Crewe!


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PostPosted: Sun 20 Aug, 2017 5:31 pm 
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"Glacier Express
From Zermatt to St. Moritz"


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PostPosted: Sun 20 Aug, 2017 5:31 pm 
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@howsillyofme1
your last post describes similar experiences Mr citizen and I have had
I hope UK public transportation sees improvement


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PostPosted: Sun 20 Aug, 2017 5:35 pm 
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HindleA wrote:
"Glacier Express
From Zermatt to St. Moritz"


That is spectacular...and Zermatt can only be reached by train....no cars

If you like trains then a train holiday in Switzerland in Winter is a must....also Martigny to Chamonix through the Apls on a track built by the Brits in an incredibly short time in the 1800s - and also past the place where Marconi did his initial telegraph experiments


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PostPosted: Sun 20 Aug, 2017 5:36 pm 
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@Tubby Isaacs
Your enthusiasm and knowledge about UK rail are a pleasure to read


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PostPosted: Sun 20 Aug, 2017 5:36 pm 
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Hopefully there'll be the knock on with buses in Wolverhampton if more people are travelling to the station. But too often stuff like that doesn't happen, and it brings the big project like HS2 in to disrepute when it doesn't. It's one thing I like about the big projects that they create pressure for better local services to link up with them.

I don't know if it's possible to stick in an extra station on the outskirts of Wolverhampton on the way to Stafford.


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PostPosted: Sun 20 Aug, 2017 5:37 pm 
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howsillyofme1 wrote:
HindleA wrote:
"Glacier Express
From Zermatt to St. Moritz"

That is spectacular...and Zermatt can only be reached by train....no cars

If you like trains then a train holiday in Switzerland in Winter is a must....also Martigny to Chamonix through the Apls on a track built by the Brits in an incredibly short time in the 1800s - and also past the place where Marconi did his initial telegraph experiments

Hurrah! Mr citizen, we're going on a train ride!


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PostPosted: Sun 20 Aug, 2017 5:38 pm 
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citizenJA wrote:
@Tubby Isaacs
Your enthusiasm and knowledge about UK rail are a pleasure to read


Thank you. It helps that I travel off peak, usually with plenty of notice, and often with a partner, with our Two Together Cards. So I usually get cheapish fares, and get to see new stuff being built, effectively paid for by people who aren't so lucky in their travel habits. I can well understand why their view of the network is different to mine!


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PostPosted: Sun 20 Aug, 2017 5:41 pm 
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Went on that line to Edinburgh a few times,Some years ago now, streets/terrain not the easiest but I live near Chesterfield and cobblestone hell,so used to a degree.


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PostPosted: Sun 20 Aug, 2017 5:41 pm 
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Tubby Isaacs wrote:
Oh hang on, I got that wrong. Stafford HS2 doesn't depend on the work at Crewe at all. It's Stoke HS2 that does.

Come on Crewe!
We'll get there eventually
or not
but despair don't get me anywhere at all


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PostPosted: Sun 20 Aug, 2017 5:44 pm 
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howsillyofme1 wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
I love train rides
I wish I could use them more frequently
the UK is a beautiful country


East Coast Mainline - Newcastle to Edinburgh - sit on the right hand side going North and vice versa for South - magnificent
This is wonderful information, brilliant

I love flythenest
a worthwhile endeavour, my friends, thank you all


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PostPosted: Sun 20 Aug, 2017 6:01 pm 
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howsillyofme1 wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
I love train rides
I wish I could use them more frequently
the UK is a beautiful country


East Coast Mainline - Newcastle to Edinburgh - sit on the right hand side going North and vice versa for South - magnificent

Better still from Darlington, magnificent views of Durham city.

Inside the train it's significantly worse since Virgin took over.

_________________
One world, like it or not - John Martyn


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PostPosted: Sun 20 Aug, 2017 6:02 pm 
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Image

One of those people smugglers pictured is German World Cup Winner, Lucas Podolski. He's in Japan, playing football.


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