How the suffering fuck are people supposed to travel anywhere when you've priced them out of all travel options??!?!?!?!?!?!SpinningHugo wrote:refitman wrote:
Oh, and people in the country who have to breathe (last I checked, all of us). Transport more people/stuff by rail and less by car - less pollution.
Giving large amounts of money to the richest will, no doubt, indirectly benefit almost everyone in some small way. That doesn't justify it.
These small indirect benefits are greatly outweighed by the large direct benefits to the immediate beneficiaries. It doesn;t come close to meeting the unfairness argument.
The last is, as I;ve explained, a bad argument.
Rail travel may pollute less than car travel, but there is nothing *inherently* good about it that means we should be encouraging it (unlike exercise, or art, or not dropping litter.) We should seek to discourage car usage by taxing it more, not by subsidising another less bad (but still bad) polluting activity as an alternative.
Saturday 19th & Sunday 20th August 2017
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Re: Saturday 19th & Sunday 20th August 2017
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Re: Saturday 19th & Sunday 20th August 2017
But who benefits more as a proportion of their income if you lower rail fares? People on lower incomes
-Nope a small proportion of them, as most aren't commuters in the south east. Overall it is regressive, but that is only one aspect of the distributive unfairness.
And who pays more tax if you subsidise it from taxation instead of rail fares? People with greater income.
-Which assumes elasticity in the amount we tax as a proportion of GDP. History suggests there really isn't much.
You could, to take an extreme example which has never been tried before, raise the top rate of tax.[/quote]
-You could, and then you'll need to select where that amount of money is best spent. On the poor? Or on commuters in the south east. You have to take into account the opportunity cost of using that tax revenue in this way.
-Nope a small proportion of them, as most aren't commuters in the south east. Overall it is regressive, but that is only one aspect of the distributive unfairness.
And who pays more tax if you subsidise it from taxation instead of rail fares? People with greater income.
-Which assumes elasticity in the amount we tax as a proportion of GDP. History suggests there really isn't much.
You could, to take an extreme example which has never been tried before, raise the top rate of tax.[/quote]
-You could, and then you'll need to select where that amount of money is best spent. On the poor? Or on commuters in the south east. You have to take into account the opportunity cost of using that tax revenue in this way.
Re: Saturday 19th & Sunday 20th August 2017
SH is Norman Tebbit and I claim my 5 bicycles.
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Re: Saturday 19th & Sunday 20th August 2017
Real silly season stuff.refitman wrote:Why is Big Ben a thing? FFS.
It's almost like they're saying to themselves "Brexit? Brrr...way too hard. Let's worry about a sodding clock and bell instead!"
And who knew there was a light up there that is on when Parliament is in session?
If I'm not here, then I'll be in the library. Or the other library.
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Re: Saturday 19th & Sunday 20th August 2017
You won't.refitman wrote:How the suffering fuck are people supposed to travel anywhere when you've priced them out of all travel options??!?!?!?!?!?!SpinningHugo wrote:refitman wrote:
Oh, and people in the country who have to breathe (last I checked, all of us). Transport more people/stuff by rail and less by car - less pollution.
Giving large amounts of money to the richest will, no doubt, indirectly benefit almost everyone in some small way. That doesn't justify it.
These small indirect benefits are greatly outweighed by the large direct benefits to the immediate beneficiaries. It doesn;t come close to meeting the unfairness argument.
The last is, as I;ve explained, a bad argument.
Rail travel may pollute less than car travel, but there is nothing *inherently* good about it that means we should be encouraging it (unlike exercise, or art, or not dropping litter.) We should seek to discourage car usage by taxing it more, not by subsidising another less bad (but still bad) polluting activity as an alternative.
If, say, poorly paid bar workers in London could no longer afford to commute in, the bar that employs them will have to raise their wages.
We shouldn't be distorting the market by subsidising businesses in London in this way.
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Re: Saturday 19th & Sunday 20th August 2017
Thanks to some for some very interesting and informed discussion on travel
One person does seem to have some odd and extreme views on how society interacts and that everything should be looked at as transactional
As more left-wing than some on here I still find it hard to get bothered by the idea of universal benefits, subsidising travel and funding HE even if some more well-off people benefit. if there is a problem with inequality of access to these type of things then we should address that rather than saying we shouldn't fund the right things - or at least aim to
The point was made about buses and they have also become more and more expensive and also less and less of a service over the years - I am happy to subsidise them as well.
The two most environmentally damaging forms of mass transport are probably the two that have become relatively cheaper over the years - quite odd really
And did I read above that someone suggested that we try and stop the mass movement of people? And that same person suggests Brexit would be the most damaging economic trigger......I suggest stopping people going to work, or pricing them out of it would be on a par at least......truly odd
Well on a 20-30 year timescale we should look at how we do transport in the future and make it sustainable as I suggested in a boring and lengthy post above but that takes vision and thought....some of which we have seen here tonight from certain posters and not at all from one other
One person does seem to have some odd and extreme views on how society interacts and that everything should be looked at as transactional
As more left-wing than some on here I still find it hard to get bothered by the idea of universal benefits, subsidising travel and funding HE even if some more well-off people benefit. if there is a problem with inequality of access to these type of things then we should address that rather than saying we shouldn't fund the right things - or at least aim to
The point was made about buses and they have also become more and more expensive and also less and less of a service over the years - I am happy to subsidise them as well.
The two most environmentally damaging forms of mass transport are probably the two that have become relatively cheaper over the years - quite odd really
And did I read above that someone suggested that we try and stop the mass movement of people? And that same person suggests Brexit would be the most damaging economic trigger......I suggest stopping people going to work, or pricing them out of it would be on a par at least......truly odd
Well on a 20-30 year timescale we should look at how we do transport in the future and make it sustainable as I suggested in a boring and lengthy post above but that takes vision and thought....some of which we have seen here tonight from certain posters and not at all from one other
Re: Saturday 19th & Sunday 20th August 2017
And if people need to travel to visit relatives, go for a job interview? You are also aware that there are other places than London and costs are also going up there?SpinningHugo wrote:You won't.refitman wrote:How the suffering fuck are people supposed to travel anywhere when you've priced them out of all travel options??!?!?!?!?!?!SpinningHugo wrote:
Giving large amounts of money to the richest will, no doubt, indirectly benefit almost everyone in some small way. That doesn't justify it.
These small indirect benefits are greatly outweighed by the large direct benefits to the immediate beneficiaries. It doesn;t come close to meeting the unfairness argument.
The last is, as I;ve explained, a bad argument.
Rail travel may pollute less than car travel, but there is nothing *inherently* good about it that means we should be encouraging it (unlike exercise, or art, or not dropping litter.) We should seek to discourage car usage by taxing it more, not by subsidising another less bad (but still bad) polluting activity as an alternative.
If, say, poorly paid bar workers in London could no longer afford to commute in, the bar that employs them will have to raise their wages.
We shouldn't be distorting the market by subsidising businesses in London in this way.
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Re: Saturday 19th & Sunday 20th August 2017
It sounds like good old Chicago school neoliberalism - the market will deliver all!
Pity it is a load of shit!
Pity it is a load of shit!
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Re: Saturday 19th & Sunday 20th August 2017
They, rather than other people, should pay the cost of doing so.refitman wrote: And if people need to travel to visit relatives, go for a job interview? You are also aware that there are other places than London and costs are also going up there?
We should help the poorest by giving them more money, not by subsidising rich south east commuters.
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Re: Saturday 19th & Sunday 20th August 2017
Did anyone else see this about when the Confederate monuments were actually raised? V.interesting.
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
If I'm not here, then I'll be in the library. Or the other library.
Re: Saturday 19th & Sunday 20th August 2017
Fuck it Arguing in circles.
Re: Saturday 19th & Sunday 20th August 2017
Without clicking the link, last 20 years?RogerOThornhill wrote:Did anyone else see this about when the Confederate monuments were actually raised? V.interesting.
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Saturday 19th & Sunday 20th August 2017
So you raise rail fares even more than they are now - who feels the pain. Rich or poor?SpinningHugo wrote:
not by subsidising rich south east commuters.
If I'm not here, then I'll be in the library. Or the other library.
Re: Saturday 19th & Sunday 20th August 2017
Labour urges college principals to get students on electoral register
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... l-register" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... l-register" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: Saturday 19th & Sunday 20th August 2017
The rich, because the poor can't afford it in the first place. What they didn't have, they won't miss.RogerOThornhill wrote:So you raise rail fares even more than they are now - who feels the pain. Rich or poor?SpinningHugo wrote:
not by subsidising rich south east commuters.
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Re: Saturday 19th & Sunday 20th August 2017
Nope. Much more interesting than that.refitman wrote:Without clicking the link, last 20 years?RogerOThornhill wrote:Did anyone else see this about when the Confederate monuments were actually raised? V.interesting.
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
If I'm not here, then I'll be in the library. Or the other library.
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Re: Saturday 19th & Sunday 20th August 2017
Depends what you then do with the money you can then spend more productively elsewhere. Give it to the poor. All of them.RogerOThornhill wrote:So you raise rail fares even more than they are now - who feels the pain. Rich or poor?SpinningHugo wrote:
not by subsidising rich south east commuters.
Overall, there is no doubt it is regressive. That there are ^some^ poor beneficiaries doesn't suffice as a justification.
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Re: Saturday 19th & Sunday 20th August 2017
refitman wrote:The rich, because the poor can't afford it in the first place. What they didn't have, they won't miss.RogerOThornhill wrote:So you raise rail fares even more than they are now - who feels the pain. Rich or poor?SpinningHugo wrote:
not by subsidising rich south east commuters.
Well, OK, The JAMs then.
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Re: Saturday 19th & Sunday 20th August 2017
they won't want students registering who might vote Labourrefitman wrote:Labour urges college principals to get students on electoral register
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... l-register" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
risk of interrupting their massive salary rises!
Re: Saturday 19th & Sunday 20th August 2017
Can't see people write/say that without thinking of either The Illuminatus! Trilogy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Illuminatus!_Trilogy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) or the KLF.RogerOThornhill wrote:Well, OK, The JAMs then.
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Re: Saturday 19th & Sunday 20th August 2017
Well, OK, The JAMs then.
I have commuted all my life.....most people I have seen on trains and buses haven't come across as being particularly rich
I think really poor people will likely use public transport a lot as well as they will not have cars - possibly buses more than trains but public transport nonetheless - and still expensive
Free bus passes for the unemployed......?
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Re: Saturday 19th & Sunday 20th August 2017
Plus coming into London by car is more expensive now because of the congestion charge. If the number of cars near my tube station is anything to go by, a fair number will come part-way by car and then switch to tube to avoid coming by rail.howsillyofme1 wrote:Well, OK, The JAMs then.
I have commuted all my life.....most people I have seen on trains and buses haven't come across as being particularly rich
I think really poor people will likely use public transport a lot as well as they will not have cars - possibly buses more than trains but public transport nonetheless - and still expensive
Free bus passes for the unemployed......?
If I'm not here, then I'll be in the library. Or the other library.
Re: Saturday 19th & Sunday 20th August 2017
Also parking.RogerOThornhill wrote:Plus coming into London by car is more expensive now because of the congestion charge. If the number of cars near my tube station is anything to go by, a fair number will come part-way by car and then switch to tube to avoid coming by rail.howsillyofme1 wrote:Well, OK, The JAMs then.
I have commuted all my life.....most people I have seen on trains and buses haven't come across as being particularly rich
I think really poor people will likely use public transport a lot as well as they will not have cars - possibly buses more than trains but public transport nonetheless - and still expensive
Free bus passes for the unemployed......?
Re: Saturday 19th & Sunday 20th August 2017
Then again, poor people shouldn't be allowed to afford cars either, so they won't have to worry about CC or parking.
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Re: Saturday 19th & Sunday 20th August 2017
True......should stay home.....perhaps we should have a ghetto or something for them so we don't have to look at themrefitman wrote:Then again, poor people shouldn't be allowed to afford cars either, so they won't have to worry about CC or parking.
Not our problem if they cannot afford to travel - although they will not have any buses as there won't be a market for them....
NO SUBSIDIES.......FOR ANYTHING
The New New Labour slogan!
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Re: Saturday 19th & Sunday 20th August 2017
Start teaching coding when still in womb thing mentioned again.
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Re: Saturday 19th & Sunday 20th August 2017
https://www.gov.uk/government/consultat ... sion-scams" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The government is committed to protecting people from pension scams and pursuing those who perpetuate pension scams wherever possible.
Sadly not their own.
The government is committed to protecting people from pension scams and pursuing those who perpetuate pension scams wherever possible.
Sadly not their own.