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PostPosted: Sat 26 Aug, 2017 6:01 pm 
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In the absence of any more politics, friends may enjoy this thread on the World Air-guitar Championships :lol:

https://twitter.com/i/moments/901468014201188352


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PostPosted: Sat 26 Aug, 2017 7:07 pm 
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Tubby Isaacs wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
Quote:
1 GBP = 1.08029 EUR
British Pound 1 GBP = 1.08029 EUR ↔ Euro 1 EUR = 0.925675 GBP

2017-08-26 16:02 UTC

http://www.xe.com/currencyconverter/con ... EUR&To=GBP


I can't think of it that way round!

1 pounds is 1.0803 Euros.

This is towards the lower end of the range that the Telegraph threatened us with if Corbyn won.
Yes
Apologies for taking this long getting back to the thread


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PostPosted: Sat 26 Aug, 2017 7:10 pm 
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PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
Some great debate on here today :-)

I decided to thank all posts. It takes quite a while doesn't it?

A quick back of the envelope suggests that CitizenJA has spent around two whole days of her life thanking the rest of us :-o

Thank you JA!

You're all worth it
:rock:


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PostPosted: Sat 26 Aug, 2017 7:36 pm 
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Tubby Isaacs wrote:
Every type of racism has its particular tropes and stereotypes, so they are different in that way.

I usually think of racism as unashamedly kicking "down"- dumb Irish, lazy blacks etc. The difference in Anti-Semitism is that it purports to be kicking "up" at Jews who "control the media" etc. So I think there can be an attraction in it for some people who are otherwise left wing because it is attacking "power". (Obviously, more common or garden racists will also go there with Jews too, and almost certainly will express it much more violently).

I wouldn't put it any stronger than that. And I don't know the question to which an anti-Semitic response was given in this survey, or even whether I'd agree it was anti-Semitic.


I agree with most of this


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PostPosted: Sat 26 Aug, 2017 7:51 pm 
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https://labourlist.org/2017/08/labour-c ... alexander/

labour-campaign-for-single-market-launched-by-mcgovern-and-alexander


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PostPosted: Sat 26 Aug, 2017 7:55 pm 
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I'd missed the month old article linked from the new Labour List piece. Apologies if we did it then, but I found it very helpful.

https://labourlist.org/2017/07/staying- ... -movement/

staying-in-the-single-market-doesnt-mean-accepting-complete-freedom-of-movement


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PostPosted: Sat 26 Aug, 2017 8:07 pm 
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I think this one is Liechtenstein only, and not going to be open to the UK.

Quote:
Negotiating arrangements to limit the number of European Economic Area nationals entering the country (the equivalent of limiting the number of national insurance numbers issued)


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PostPosted: Sat 26 Aug, 2017 8:10 pm 
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https://www.theguardian.com/global/2017 ... ost-brexit

labour-calls-for-lengthy-transitional-period-post-brexit

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Party opens clear divide with Tories, with support for free movement and paying into EU budgets for up to four years


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PostPosted: Sat 26 Aug, 2017 8:10 pm 
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Goodnight, everyone
love,
cJA


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PostPosted: Sat 26 Aug, 2017 8:12 pm 
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PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/global/2017/aug/26/labour-calls-for-lengthy-transitional-period-post-brexit

labour-calls-for-lengthy-transitional-period-post-brexit

Quote:
Party opens clear divide with Tories, with support for free movement and paying into EU budgets for up to four years


But.....b-but.......Corbyn backs hard Brexit to the hilt just like the Tories!! :roll: :D


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PostPosted: Sat 26 Aug, 2017 8:14 pm 
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/global/2017/aug/26/labour-calls-for-lengthy-transitional-period-post-brexit

labour-calls-for-lengthy-transitional-period-post-brexit

Quote:
Party opens clear divide with Tories, with support for free movement and paying into EU budgets for up to four years


But.....b-but.......Corbyn backs hard Brexit to the hilt just like the Tories!! :roll: :D

I'm sure some people will still believe that. Or say they do!

This is very good news IMHO. Good policy and good politics.


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PostPosted: Sat 26 Aug, 2017 8:20 pm 
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Night cja


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PostPosted: Sat 26 Aug, 2017 8:21 pm 
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/global/2017/aug/26/labour-calls-for-lengthy-transitional-period-post-brexit

labour-calls-for-lengthy-transitional-period-post-brexit

Quote:
Party opens clear divide with Tories, with support for free movement and paying into EU budgets for up to four years


But.....b-but.......Corbyn backs hard Brexit to the hilt just like the Tories!! :roll: :D


Yeah, he does.

I doubt this will differ very much from what the Tories agree to.


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PostPosted: Sat 26 Aug, 2017 8:21 pm 
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https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... heresa-may

labour-soft-brexit-jeremy-corbyn-theresa-may

Editorial


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PostPosted: Sat 26 Aug, 2017 8:24 pm 
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SpinningHugo wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/global/2017/aug/26/labour-calls-for-lengthy-transitional-period-post-brexit

labour-calls-for-lengthy-transitional-period-post-brexit


But.....b-but.......Corbyn backs hard Brexit to the hilt just like the Tories!! :roll: :D


Yeah, he does.

I doubt this will differ very much from what the Tories agree to.


Predictable as clockwork :mrgreen:

Just a note to mods here - shouldn't this thread be extended into Monday, given it is a bank holiday?


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PostPosted: Sat 26 Aug, 2017 8:28 pm 
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Agree


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PostPosted: Sat 26 Aug, 2017 8:28 pm 
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SpinningHugo wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:

But.....b-but.......Corbyn backs hard Brexit to the hilt just like the Tories!! :roll: :D


Yeah, he does.

I doubt this will differ very much from what the Tories agree to.

Indeed. One reason why it's very clever eh?

Just as the Tories realise they need to edge towards soft from hard Brexit, Labour occupies precisely that ground. Causing trouble for the Tories and doing the "right" thing. You must be very happy Hugo ;-)


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PostPosted: Sat 26 Aug, 2017 8:29 pm 
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I blame the person that opened it.


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PostPosted: Sat 26 Aug, 2017 8:32 pm 
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Indeed HindleA could have fixed it himself ;-)

I've changed it so posts from now on should have the correct title.


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PostPosted: Sat 26 Aug, 2017 8:35 pm 
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HindleA wrote:
Agree


I don't.


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PostPosted: Sat 26 Aug, 2017 8:37 pm 
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Don't you start. ;)


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PostPosted: Sat 26 Aug, 2017 8:40 pm 
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Apply some Kremlinology.

Does this fit with anything Corbyn and McDonnell have said? Or their long-term views on the EU and this capitalist ramp?

Has there been a meeting where this new line was agreed?

Is the Observer the paper of choice for a new line to be announced by Corbyn and McDonnell?

The answer is no to all the above.

It comes from Starmer. He looks more useless by the day, but has enough sense to know that something like this is the only viable option. If we were not headed for a long transitional deal there should be some major construction going on at Dover and the NI border.

But Corbyn and McDonnell? They haven't changed their minds on anything since 1973. The Campaign group have always loathed the EU, an evil centrist project.


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PostPosted: Sat 26 Aug, 2017 8:41 pm 
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@HindleA

Done - in case you're wondering.


Last edited by PorFavor on Sat 26 Aug, 2017 8:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat 26 Aug, 2017 8:41 pm 
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Portes sees logic in Labour's position
Quote:
Jonathan Portes‏ @jdportes 27m27 minutes ago
More
Jonathan Portes Retweeted The Guardian
Finally a coherent policy from Labour - indefinite limbo, half-in half-out. Messy, but economic logic is strong (esp. compared to govt).


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PostPosted: Sat 26 Aug, 2017 8:43 pm 
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@PF,appreciated.


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PostPosted: Sat 26 Aug, 2017 8:43 pm 
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SpinningHugo wrote:
Apply some Kremlinology.

Does this fit with anything Corbyn and McDonnell have said? Or their long-term views on the EU and this capitalist ramp?

Has there been a meeting where this new line was agreed?

Is the Observer the paper of choice for a new line to be announced by Corbyn and McDonnell?

The answer is no to all the above.

It comes from Starmer. He looks more useless by the day, but has enough sense to know that something like this is the only viable option. If we were not headed for a long transitional deal there should be some major construction going on at Dover and the NI border.

But Corbyn and McDonnell? They haven't changed their minds on anything since 1973. The Campaign group have always loathed the EU, an evil centrist project.

Well Toby Helm said it's been signed off by the leadership and all significant members of the Shad Cab!


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PostPosted: Sat 26 Aug, 2017 8:45 pm 
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PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/global/2017/aug/26/labour-calls-for-lengthy-transitional-period-post-brexit

labour-calls-for-lengthy-transitional-period-post-brexit

Quote:
Party opens clear divide with Tories, with support for free movement and paying into EU budgets for up to four years


As I understand it, the position is to end freedom of movement 4 years later and avoid cliff edge Brexit. I don't think that would be acceptable to rEU. That fails what for me is the crucial test from their point of view: would it be sufficient to deter anti-immigration populists from leaving the EU?

I'm encouraged by it though.


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PostPosted: Sat 26 Aug, 2017 8:49 pm 
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SpinningHugo wrote:

It comes from Starmer. He looks more useless by the day, but has enough sense to know that something like this is the only viable option. If we were not headed for a long transitional deal there should be some major construction going on at Dover and the NI border.



Did SH lose a case to Starmer badly at some point in the past?

I can't see any other reason for the wording in this comment.

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PostPosted: Sat 26 Aug, 2017 8:50 pm 
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https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ional-deal

keir-starmer-no-constructive-ambiguity-brexit-cliff-edge-labour-will-avoid-transitional-deal


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PostPosted: Sat 26 Aug, 2017 9:06 pm 
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And Ben Bradshaw endorses! :-o :-o :-o
Quote:
Ben Bradshaw‏Verified account @BenPBradshaw 12m12 minutes ago

The right call for Britain & the right call for @UKLabour Excellent news.


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PostPosted: Sat 26 Aug, 2017 9:11 pm 
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Tubby Isaacs wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/global/2017/aug/26/labour-calls-for-lengthy-transitional-period-post-brexit

labour-calls-for-lengthy-transitional-period-post-brexit

Quote:
Party opens clear divide with Tories, with support for free movement and paying into EU budgets for up to four years


As I understand it, the position is to end freedom of movement 4 years later and avoid cliff edge Brexit. I don't think that would be acceptable to rEU. That fails what for me is the crucial test from their point of view: would it be sufficient to deter anti-immigration populists from leaving the EU?

I'm encouraged by it though.

Good questions. We don't know Tubby what the EU may have already said to Corbyn on these issues.


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PostPosted: Sat 26 Aug, 2017 9:14 pm 
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Well well
Quote:
Chuka Umunna‏Verified account @ChukaUmunna 1h1 hour ago
More
Chuka Umunna Retweeted The Guardian
As I've said all along,we need clear red water between the PM's job-destroying Brexit+our position -this is a welcome step in that direction


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PostPosted: Sat 26 Aug, 2017 9:15 pm 
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https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/ ... hours-hmrc



Tory pledge on more free childcare in disarray
Parents and providers are left in confusion by the troubled introduction of 30 hours of free nursery to three and four-year-olds


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PostPosted: Sat 26 Aug, 2017 9:18 pm 
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So, a nice 2-0 win away for Leeds at Forest and some very intriguing policy developments for Labour.

I think I may treat myself to a beer ;-)

Good night all


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PostPosted: Sat 26 Aug, 2017 9:19 pm 
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PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
Good questions. We don't know Tubby what the EU may have already said to Corbyn on these issues.


Interesting.

I was thinking that the Lib Dems would be the ones with the hotline because they know Guy Verhofstadt well from the EU Parliament. It's distinctly possible Labour are getting a heads up.

Taking it as face value, that it's an unprompted position from Labour, one thing that it would signal to the EU is that the Opposition are much more sensible than the government.


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PostPosted: Sat 26 Aug, 2017 9:21 pm 
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Night night.


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PostPosted: Sat 26 Aug, 2017 9:22 pm 
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Evening all.

Just read the Starmer piece. Excellent news. The ball is in your court, Davis.


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PostPosted: Sat 26 Aug, 2017 11:11 pm 
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I get very confused when I see a prominent Blue Labour type on the same side as self-confessed libertarian right wingers.

Why?

Because he supports Leave...he wouldn't normally touch these people with a barge pole.

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PostPosted: Sun 27 Aug, 2017 12:11 am 
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https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... tains-fate


Can Labour’s change of course over Brexit change Britain’s fate?

Andrew Rawnsley


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PostPosted: Sun 27 Aug, 2017 12:18 am 
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Often those that proclaim others as unbending are the most unbending.


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PostPosted: Sun 27 Aug, 2017 5:35 am 
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Firstly, I am in Scotland tomorrow and I am working, so no Bank Holiday for them (well some outside the English enclave known as Edinburgh anyway lol)

Secondly, on Labour and the EU

Labour are not going to go immediately to a clear Remain/Soft position - it would be politically wrong and also make them look opportunists

They may have a back channel into the EU, and also may have looked at the direction of travel. The Government has started to see the mess they have created and it is leading to an incoherent shambles.....Labour are slowly but surely moving and taking advantage of this

Corbyn is not, for me, a standard Brexiteer - he seems to be more interested in making sure people have jobs and rights (and he is not opposed to immigration either) and the EU probably helps him on this more than Brexit. Starmer is a more standard Remainer

Running out of battery, may return to this theme later


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PostPosted: Sun 27 Aug, 2017 7:18 am 
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Quote:
Tim Walker‏Verified account
@ThatTimWalker
Follow
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One insider tells me this is Labour testing the water ahead of full-scale opposition to Brexshit


Might lose some traditional support and Blue Labour types but gain a whole load more...needs to be be phrased in terms of "What control are we really getting back?" and "Brexit will make us poorer".

They're never going to convince the wackier EUSSR-types though.

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PostPosted: Sun 27 Aug, 2017 7:39 am 
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Labour won't be in power to do any of this. If they disrupt the government's stated policy to such a clear degree it's all but impossible to see the government surviving - so they won't get enough (or indeed hardly any) conservatives voting with them in the commons, because they won't do anything that would risk an early election. I will not rely on conservative members of parliament to put country before party.

They seem to be going down the line of 'we can leave but not leave' which seems disingenuous, and also seem to be hoping that the EU will give us concessions that they have consistently and in unison made clear will not come.

It's better than before but not much. I still haven't seen any detailed responses to the policy papers the government have produced. Saying 'it's the recess' is no good at all, the government didn't stop working.

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PostPosted: Sun 27 Aug, 2017 7:51 am 
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Labour's official press feed is here. There is more than nothing about the published papers but not much. This is the biggest issue in UK politics for generations, the government don't have a clue what they're doing and Labour are blandly releasing statements and not following up on anything.

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PostPosted: Sun 27 Aug, 2017 8:09 am 
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If the argument that Labour is not in position to do anything and never will be because no Tory MP will put country above party - which I agree with - then why demand Labour issues detailed positions in response to the crap that is coming out of the Government?

All that will do will ties Labour to a position that they will not be able to negotiate on and will give the press a chance to focus on them again rather than the Tories

For Brexit the focus should be on the Tories so anything detailed coming from Labour will be at the top of the headlines and attacked from all sides - because that is what the press do!

Labour has set out its position and tests, it has responded at the right level to the position papers and has done a bit more today.

Oh, and a final point. I am surprised at the uncritical EUphilia from some of the Left - the EU has no Government in it, as far as I can see, that I am ideologically aligned with. It is economically dominated by the CDU - and although I am a fan of Merkel as a politician I have no illusions that her and Schäuble are politically anywhere near me. In Poland and Hungary we also have proto-fascists who do not seem to be excluded to the level they should be

I support the EU for cooperation reasons and for the help to protect us from the extremes of politics - also because we are economically so dependent on them. I am not an uncritical fanboy though and am extremely uneasy about the future direction - which I would see being to the right and not the left


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PostPosted: Sun 27 Aug, 2017 8:21 am 
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howsillyofme1 wrote:
If the argument that Labour is not in position to do anything and never will be because no Tory MP will put country above party - which I agree with - then why demand Labour issues detailed positions in response to the crap that is coming out of the Government?

All that will do will ties Labour to a position that they will not be able to negotiate on and will give the press a chance to focus on them again rather than the Tories


Because it's nonsensical crap but nobody is hearing that it's nonsensical crap and part of Labour's job in opposition is to make sure that people know this. There will be a significant proportion of leave supporters who are absolute die-hards, and a significant proportion of people reporting to support leave now who 'voted marginally' to leave or voted remain. I have very little faith in an electorate who can vote leave to start with given the nonsense of the leave campaign (which makes me an unforgivable snob in some quarters but there's no point in pretending) but you would think that there is a big constituency of people who should be looking at the present situation and saying 'you know, this isn't what we were told would happen'. I don't see any evidence for that at all. This is a failing for any opposition party.

Quote:
For Brexit the focus should be on the Tories so anything detailed coming from Labour will be at the top of the headlines and attacked from all sides - because that is what the press do!


But I'm not suggesting Labour should be setting out policy, I'm suggesting that the government's policy papers are ludicrous. If they EU negotiators and other national leaders can be so unpolitic as to call the UK government out for living in fantasy land then Labour should be doing the same, only first, louder and more consistently.

...

Quote:
Oh, and a final point. I am surprised at the uncritical EUphilia from some of the Left - the EU has no Government in it, as far as I can see, that I am ideologically aligned with. It is economically dominated by the CDU - and although I am a fan of Merkel as a politician I have no illusions that her and Schäuble are politically anywhere near me. In Poland and Hungary we also have proto-fascists who do not seem to be excluded to the level they should be

I support the EU for cooperation reasons and for the help to protect us from the extremes of politics - also because we are economically so dependent on them. I am not an uncritical fanboy though and am extremely uneasy about the future direction - which I would see being to the right and not the left


I agree with a lot of this but more important is that we have to deal with the world as it is as a starting point. We're not entitled to a blank slate and unless we can take the rest of Europe with us we're not even entitled to be in charge of the chalk. We don't have a short term choice between this EU and a better one.

(This stuff makes me very angry - if I come across as such it's not you, it's me. Well, it's the world, but you know what I mean).

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PostPosted: Sun 27 Aug, 2017 8:34 am 
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No, we are not entitled to a blank slate and we are going to lose huge influence outside the EU so it is obvious to me we still need to be in it - and it is on the tactics to rescue the situation as best we can that there is much disagreement - and I don't think any of us have the clear answer

I still predict the world is moving to the right and the EU will follow that trend.....so in or out the world looks a fairly bleak place from where I sit....just it is worse outside the EU


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PostPosted: Sun 27 Aug, 2017 8:42 am 
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Some reports that this "change" from Labour has come about after "testing the water" with their continental contacts.

Of course the EU and its constituent governments will remain unbending in public but that may not be the whole story?


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PostPosted: Sun 27 Aug, 2017 8:52 am 
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Some reports that this "change" from Labour has come about after "testing the water" with their continental contacts.

Of course the EU and its constituent governments will remain unbending in public but that may not be the whole story?



The EU have red lines, it is just how far we can push them will only become clearer as the negotiations beginn

One thing that is key at this stage though is the tone of the discussion and there is clear blue water between the two parties - just read the articles from Starmer and Davis today

There is no good deal outside the EU - the EU will not allow us to sell whatever we have as a good deal - but there is a difference between a poor deal and a bad deal

The best thing would be to bring the population round to the idea of us staying in...will Europe accept that....perhaps as it would be no better example of what the repercussions of leaving are.......we just have to bring the electorate round to accepting that

As I have said before there is, in my view, no chance of a soft NI/RoI border and I still see that is going to eventually be a microcosm of all the problems of Brexit


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PostPosted: Sun 27 Aug, 2017 9:24 am 
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http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 13131.html


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