FlyTheNest

howsillyofme1 wrote:There are no Tory Europhile rebels, apart from perhaps Clarke and one or two others, and there are enough Labour Brexiteers to outnumber them in all likelihood

Don't depend on these mythical beasts

...and anyway Brexit is not the only shambles they are presiding over

Get rid of this bunch one incompetents as soon as possible and Labour should be fighting for this every day

Willow904 wrote:

howsillyofme1 wrote:There are no Tory Europhile rebels, apart from perhaps Clarke and one or two others, and there are enough Labour Brexiteers to outnumber them in all likelihood

Don't depend on these mythical beasts

...and anyway Brexit is not the only shambles they are presiding over

Get rid of this bunch one incompetents as soon as possible and Labour should be fighting for this every day

How, though? If there are no rebels, as you say, there is no way to win a vote of no confidence. Winning an amendment or, much more likely, putting May in a position where she has to take soft Brexit views into account to avoid the opposition winning on an amendment, seems more possible to me. But it does involve working with cross party aligned interests, admittedly not attractive. But even if it were possible to force another election, Brexit isn't going to magically disappear, it's going to carry on happening, with no one at the helm, again not very attractive.

howsillyofme1 wrote:

Willow904 wrote:

howsillyofme1 wrote:There are no Tory Europhile rebels, apart from perhaps Clarke and one or two others, and there are enough Labour Brexiteers to outnumber them in all likelihood

Don't depend on these mythical beasts

...and anyway Brexit is not the only shambles they are presiding over

Get rid of this bunch one incompetents as soon as possible and Labour should be fighting for this every day

How, though? If there are no rebels, as you say, there is no way to win a vote of no confidence. Winning an amendment or, much more likely, putting May in a position where she has to take soft Brexit views into account to avoid the opposition winning on an amendment, seems more possible to me. But it does involve working with cross party aligned interests, admittedly not attractive. But even if it were possible to force another election, Brexit isn't going to magically disappear, it's going to carry on happening, with no one at the helm, again not very attractive.

That is a question for the Tory rebels rather than Labour....how much will they put country over party if they feel that strongly?

The European votes are not confidence votes so they should vote on conscience - I bet you Hoey will vote against the whip on Europe if it is pro-EU

Before June Corbyn was rubbish because he didn't put any pressure on the Tories because he was unelectable and not he is rubbish because he is putting pressure on the Tories because he is electable

The EU votes are separate from bringing down the Tory Government - the former will allow us to work with the Tories, the latter is something any self-respecting labour MP should be fighting for everyday

AnatolyKasparov wrote:There have been claims that the likes of Soubry and Allen haven't actually rebelled on Brexit "because Corbyn agrees with May on hard Brexit so there isn't any point".

Well, their bluff has rather been called now isn't it?

While we currently have the opportunity to veto many EU-wide decisions – a disproportionate power that we have wielded gleefully, much to the chagrin of our European partners – as a member of the EEA, like Norway, we would be beholden to the EU’s policymakers in much the way Nigel Farage always told us we were.

'I don't recognise my country anymore': British citizens leaving UK because of Brexit amid exodus of Europeans
More than 100,000 Brits have already emigrated for a variety of reasons since the EU referendum
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 14606.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 15081.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Lifelong Tory Matthew Parris says he would consider voting Labour following 'dramatic' Brexit shift
The commentator called Labour's decision to back the single market and customs union 'brave'

tinyclanger2 wrote:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 15081.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Lifelong Tory Matthew Parris says he would consider voting Labour following 'dramatic' Brexit shift
The commentator called Labour's decision to back the single market and customs union 'brave'

adam wrote:Labour’s soft Brexit ‘solution’ would make reality of the Brexiters’ lies

While we currently have the opportunity to veto many EU-wide decisions – a disproportionate power that we have wielded gleefully, much to the chagrin of our European partners – as a member of the EEA, like Norway, we would be beholden to the EU’s policymakers in much the way Nigel Farage always told us we were.

The article is a very good take on a lot of my concerns.

Crashing out at least offers the distant prospect, even after a period of pain and adjustment, of a better, future.

Preserving our fragile economy is of course important, but if we just maintain the status quo while also turning the EU into an actual – rather than an imagined – bogeyman, we’re storing up big problems for the decades to come. In short: there’s nothing soft about this soft Brexit.

citizenJA wrote:From the article

Crashing out at least offers the distant prospect, even after a period of pain and adjustment, of a better, future.

adam wrote:Labour’s soft Brexit ‘solution’ would make reality of the Brexiters’ lies

While we currently have the opportunity to veto many EU-wide decisions – a disproportionate power that we have wielded gleefully, much to the chagrin of our European partners – as a member of the EEA, like Norway, we would be beholden to the EU’s policymakers in much the way Nigel Farage always told us we were.

The article is a very good take on a lot of my concerns.

howsillyofme1 wrote:Norway is not a model that will work for us. It will have to be a bespoke one

Norway are not in CU and are in Schengen

Tens of thousands of parents are still waiting to find out if they can take up a government offer of 30 hours’ free childcare days before the scheme is due to be launched.

According to the latest figures, revealed in a letter sent by the Department for Education to local authorities and seen by the Observer, 82,000 parents entitled to the extra childcare have not yet secured a place for their three and four-year-olds

howsillyofme1 wrote:I have no problem with the Norway approach....but would Schengen be acceptable to the electorate and is the CU important as most pro EU supporters talk of that in the same breathe as the SM)

Personally I think Norway-type agreement means absolutely nothing because of the above - the only part we would want is a similar participation with the SM (and Norway doesnt cover agriculture or fisheries either)

The reality is our agreement will be a bespoke UK agreement and I find the continual referral to Norway (and Switzerland) unhelpful

Should the rich be taxed more? A new paper shows unequivocally yes
Larry Elliott

Using a statistical model we can examine the relationship between the perceived likelihood of Labour winning a majority and support for the Labour party over the campaign, controlling for other factors that might predict Labour support.

So does our analysis support the argument that people voted for Labour because they thought Labour would win? In fact, it suggests the opposite. As the graph below shows, the more likely someone thought Labour was to win a majority, the more likely they were to vote Labour.

http://www.britishelectionstudy.com/bes ... aL72dSQxQI" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/kei ... 15626.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
He has adroitly repositioned Labour to stifle a Lib Dem resurgence, saddle May with the sole custody of the hard Brexit problem child she’d rather share, and prepare Labour for the day it follows its head and its heart by fighting to remain.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Labour's Jess Phillips received '600 rape and death threats in a single day'
There was nothing in common with those threatening her online other than them being men, said the MP for Birmingham Yardley

HindleA wrote:@cja They've missed a "not" out in the first sentence,in your last paragraph.Further on

"Although undoubtedly there were some people who voted Labour because they thought they could not win the election, the evidence is very clear that this was not true in general. Indeed the opposite is the case – the more likely people thought Labour’s chances of winning the election were, the more likely they were to vote for them"

citizenJA wrote:

HindleA wrote:@cja They've missed a "not" out in the first sentence,in your last paragraph.Further on

"Although undoubtedly there were some people who voted Labour because they thought they could not win the election, the evidence is very clear that this was not true in general. Indeed the opposite is the case – the more likely people thought Labour’s chances of winning the election were, the more likely they were to vote for them"

Thank you
For some reason it bothers the hell out of me
Probably because I think the hypothesis obnoxious bull****
'people voted Labour because they thought Labour wouldn't win'
break logic much
what's the stupid mistake still doing in there

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 15541.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
A million skilled workers plan to leave the UK after Brexit
A staggering 55 per cent of those with PhDs and 49 per cent of those with postgraduate degrees have either decided to leave or are considering it

“Against this backdrop we expect to see increased competition for talent between employers over the coming years, and numerous firms seeking to supplement their workforce with AI, robotics and automation.”

tinyclanger2 wrote:Just read some comments on a Guardian article - something (post FTN) I hardly ever do.
Won't be doing it again.

The fact of the matter is that this government is so unstable that anything could happen in the next two months.
- William Keegan

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... ain-brexit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Parliamentary politics, such as it has been since the general election, has been like fighting over the steering wheel when you’re already in the middle of a game of chicken. Do you really want to be in charge when the British and EU cars collide?

Labour MPs warn of backlash if Jeremy Corbyn shifts Brexit stance
Plans to position Labour as the party of ‘soft Brexit’ lead to concerns among MPs about alienating Brexit voters

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... icy-change" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Another [Labour MP] said: “This is a disaster in northern towns where we got Ukip’s vote by backing Brexit and immigration controls as soon as possible, not by hoping they might come through in the future.”

'The president speaks for himself': Rex Tillerson distances himself from Trump

Asked if Charlottesville remarks made it harder to represent the US, secretary of state appears to suggest president does not represent American values (Guardian)

tinyclanger2 wrote:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... icy-change" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Another [Labour MP] said: “This is a disaster in northern towns where we got Ukip’s vote by backing Brexit and immigration controls as soon as possible, not by hoping they might come through in the future.”

Not much point in having the UKIP vote if they just adopt UKIP's policies.