Saturday 23rd & Sunday 24th September 2017

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 12:45 pm

There are now complaints - including from some leavers - that May shouldn't have invoked A50 as early as she did.

Indeed, there was no actual *need* to. She did so in the hope the fallout from it would wreck the Labour party beyond repair.

Despite some hairy moments, that hasn't happened.

Let's not lose sight of this.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 12:50 pm

Or not arrogant enough to think you know everything,a willingness to learn is an asset and everybody has their own valid experience.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 12:51 pm

For the avoidance of any doubt, whatever my concerns about Labour and the EU, if we're coming\crashing out, then I'd rather have a Labour government in power to protect our interests. Goes without saying that, even if we were staying in the EU, I'd rather have a Labour government.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 12:52 pm

Apart from me of course,I know everything.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 12:54 pm

HindleA wrote:Apart from me of course,I know everything.

Don't forget to mention your sophistication . . .

Edited - typo

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 12:55 pm

"May had appeared to win temporary unity among senior Tories by using her speech in Florence last Friday..."

- Johnson forced Theresa May’s hand on EU, claim Tories as cabinet truce unravels

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... e-unravels" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Based on what, exactly?
A news report based upon Tory government sources
Tories got a lock-down on antics they don't want known
I can't discern fact from fiction

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 12:56 pm

@PF It is in the loft somewhere.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 1:00 pm

Three minutes early for lunch,could have had another speaker.Conspiracy.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 1:01 pm

PorFavor wrote:For the avoidance of any doubt, whatever my concerns about Labour and the EU, if we're coming\crashing out, then I'd rather have a Labour government in power to protect our interests. Goes without saying that, even if we were staying in the EU, I'd rather have a Labour government.

well, duh, omg
<valley girl emoticon insert here>

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 1:01 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:There are now complaints - including from some leavers - that May shouldn't have invoked A50 as early as she did.

Indeed, there was no actual *need* to. She did so in the hope the fallout from it would wreck the Labour party beyond repair.

Despite some hairy moments, that hasn't happened.

Let's not lose sight of this.

Of course we shouldn't. It was a crazy thing to do.

REM Nd me which party had a 3 line whip supporting it, and a leader who called for invoking art 50 even earlier.

The Labour and Tory policies are the same.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 1:03 pm

McDonnell on It V was the same as JC on the single market

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 1:06 pm

Glenis mentioned karaoke,she could have finished with a song.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 1:14 pm

Shortly after May's Florence jaunt speech, Moody's downgraded the UK's credit rating
Between the end of May's speech and thumbs down from Moody's the Tories were united?
Forty-one minutes, tops

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 1:17 pm

HindleA wrote:Glenis mentioned karaoke,she could have finished with a song.

Iron Butterfly
'In A Gadda Da Vida'

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 1:28 pm

"As May held a champagne reception for 30 Tory MPs at Chequers on Saturday – presumably to spin the speech to each backbencher to suit their Brexit preferences – there were already signs that the uneasy post-Florence truce was under strain."

- May’s ‘renaissance’ speech paints over cracks in Tories’ Brexit position
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... tory-party" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They're too expensive, Tory government
The UK can't afford to keep them

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 1:28 pm

McDonnell on It V was the same as JC on the single market

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 1:44 pm

citizenJA wrote:
HindleA wrote:Glenis mentioned karaoke,she could have finished with a song.
Iron Butterfly
'In A Gadda Da Vida'

I'm not falling for that one . . .

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 1:45 pm

"...all the uncertainty that the prospect of Brexit has provoked.... nvestment and trade are suffering; and a divided, second-rate government, which is making a false show of unity, continues to live in a fantasy world where we can enjoy all the benefits of the largest trading group in the world and none of the responsibilities."

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... -than-that" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 1:45 pm

your post was as nonsensical the second time as it was the first......

The line they push is that the EU internal market is as it says on the tin - an internal market fro EU members and is synonymous with what we call the Single Market. Membership is therefore predicated on membership of the EU. I know it confuses you but it actually is quite smart to make that point if you are looking it at it from their (and my) point of view

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 2:00 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:There are now complaints - including from some leavers - that May shouldn't have invoked A50 as early as she did.

Indeed, there was no actual *need* to. She did so in the hope the fallout from it would wreck the Labour party beyond repair.

Despite some hairy moments, that hasn't happened.

Let's not lose sight of this.

I think she invoked it because her party would have never stopped moaning till she did. There might have been some pressure for revoking the European Communities Act too.

Labour are still standing (and more) but there's a lot of work to do.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 2:05 pm

The wig and usherette uniform that Tony Blair is wearing during the intermission ice cream selling is fooling nobody.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 2:12 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:There are now complaints - including from some leavers - that May shouldn't have invoked A50 as early as she did.

Indeed, there was no actual *need* to. She did so in the hope the fallout from it would wreck the Labour party beyond repair.

Despite some hairy moments, that hasn't happened.

Let's not lose sight of this.
I think she invoked it because her party would have never stopped moaning till she did. There might have been some pressure for revoking the European Communities Act too.

Labour are still standing (and more) but there's a lot of work to do.

Brexit is without doubt the trickiest political argument of current times........based on much more than the EU

FPTP has made it more difficult for political parties to manage internally as they have broad views in the membership and amonst voters which are really difficult to manage.

To be honest both parties are actually doing better than we may have thought six months or so ago, with Labour looking relatively good

The difficult days are still ahead though but I think the Labour transformation towards where it will end up is looking more able to deliver than the Tory one - the Tories have a real ideological problem over Europe - Labour less so

There are a huge amount of Tories who see exiting the EU as the endgame and will countenance absolutely no links to it after March 2019. Economically and politically this will become unmanageable

I still think Labour are heading to a different place that will lead us to a closer relationship to the EU than we would have thought possible only a few months ago

My bet is still that Ireland will be the subject that will force the hands of the parties - and there is no solution to Ireland that does not involve a very close ongoing relationship with the EU.....and I think Labour will go for that in the end

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 2:12 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:your post was as nonsensical the second time as it was the first......

The line they push is that the EU internal market is as it says on the tin - an internal market fro EU members and is synonymous with what we call the Single Market. Membership is therefore predicated on membership of the EU. I know it confuses you but it actually is quite smart to make that point if you are looking it at it from their (and my) point of view

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_market" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A single market is a type of trade bloc in which most trade barriers have been removed (for goods) with some common policies on product regulation, and freedom of movement of the factors of production (capital and labour) and of enterprise and services. The goal is that the movement of capital, labour, goods, and services between the members is as easy as within them.[1] The physical (borders), technical (standards) and fiscal (taxes) barriers among the member states are removed to the maximum extent possible. These barriers obstruct the freedom of movement of the four factors of production.

It's the four freedoms of movement that make it a single market, not membership of the EU and as such all countries that accept the four freedoms and abide by the rules are "in" the single market. You do not have to be in the EU to be a member of the single market, Jeremy Corbyn is just flat out wrong about that. Whether we would be allowed by other countries to operate within the single market is another matter, of course, but then that's what these negotiations are all about.

As the benefits of a single market derive from the freedom of movement, saying you want all the benefits without freedom of movement may be politically appealing but is economically illiterate. You either operate within the single market accepting the four freedoms and all the rules or you trade with with the single market from outside. I suppose it is possible you could convince all the countries in the single market not to have a full blown single market anymore, removing some of the freedoms, putting up new barriers and returning to a Common Market and then join that, but that leads to the questions "how" and "why". I just don't see this as feasible and Barnier has been very clear it's not going to happen anyway.

As for Corbyn, he repeatedly presents reasons for not being in the single market. I really don't know why this should be interpreted as anything other than Corbyn not supporting us remaining in the single market. He appears isolated on this within the party both among MPs and the membership. I can't help but hope that someone more in tune with the party takes over as leader sooner rather than later as this division will strain an otherwise reasonably united party.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 2:37 pm

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 6.html?amp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Top cabinet ministers plotting against Theresa May revealed

A new book tells how Philip Hammond called Boris Johnson to back him on election morning

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 2:45 pm

Chris Leslie really is the meltiest of melts.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 2:47 pm

"The EU isn't going to want a failed state for a neighbour."

- from elsewhere

I think I've found Tory government's only playing card.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 3:30 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... CMP=twt_gu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The day nine young students shattered racial segregation in US schools

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 3:33 pm

https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... eel-anthem" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

'Fire or suspend': Trump launches fresh attack on NFL players as more protests loom

For a supposed patriot, Donald Trump has little love for America's constitution and traditions, does he?

“NFL attendance and ratings are WAY DOWN. Boring games yes, but many stay away because they love our country. League should back US.”

Yeah, insult American football that'll get your ratings up! What an ass!

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 3:36 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/housing-net ... kim-thomas" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Supported housing: getting people back onto their own feet

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 3:39 pm

Why does discussing with some Remainers remind me of the same exercise with Leavers....so sure of everything and not prepared for any nuance in their interpretations?

I do not see what a wiki definition of a 'single market' has to do with 'The EU Single Market' - I could link to a definition of 'conservative' to define 'Conservative' and it would be equally erroneous

I have added the link to the EU Single Market here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Single_Market" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The whole of the debate gets drawn into this discussion of the nuances of the Single Market, CU, Schengen etc. The EU sees all these are being linked together in their internal mechanisms and don't really look to divide them. Current EU membership requires all of them, or at least an 'in principle' agreement to all of them

I think the interpretation that membership of the EU is the only means to have 'membership' of all aspects of the EU internal market is a fair one. I do not consider that Norway is a member of the SM as there are exclusions of some agricultural and fisheries as well as it being outside the CU so goods are subject to some controls. I can tell you as well that Switzerland has no free movement of goods across borders in the same way as it is between EU member states.

I know this is semantics but McDonnell and Corbyn but sometimes politics comes down to wording - where it will end up we will see

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 3:49 pm

Willow904 wrote:https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... eel-anthem
'Fire or suspend': Trump launches fresh attack on NFL players as more protests loom
For a supposed patriot, Donald Trump has little love for America's constitution and traditions, does he?
“NFL attendance and ratings are WAY DOWN. Boring games yes, but many stay away because they love our country. League should back US.”
Yeah, insult American football that'll get your ratings up! What an ass!

He's a diversionary creation
Scary as hell

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 3:50 pm

I decline to know him

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 3:54 pm

@howsillyofme1
I can't agree with your last post

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 3:56 pm

Always good to hear "bollocks"

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 4:00 pm

citizenJA wrote:@howsillyofme1
I can't agree with your last post

why?

you are, of course allowed to disagree, but with what in particular?

I am not usually a fan of wiki but I am quite happy with this

The market encompasses the EU's 28 member states, and has been extended, with exceptions, to Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway through the Agreement on the European Economic Area and to Switzerland through bilateral treaties.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 4:06 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/ ... ve-updates" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

German elections 2017: Angela Merkel seeks fourth term as country heads to polls – live updates

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 4:12 pm

"The deep relationship with the EU that Mrs May urges to be “creatively” constructed – a continuation of the cake-and-eat-it approach Britain has sought and partly achieved as an EU member – cannot be done outside it."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... y-together" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(cJA emphasis)

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 4:13 pm

Norway accepts the four freedoms and thus enjoys all the benefits of the single market.

Switzerland likewise accepts the four freedoms.

If the UK doesn't accept the four freedoms it won't enjoy all the benefits. It will be outside the single market.

I really can't put it any simpler than that. I'm talking about economic reality, not political semantics. It doesn't matter via what configuration the UK is a part of the economic bloc, we either accept the four freedoms and we are thus "in" or we don't accept the four freedoms and we are "out". And at the moment Corbyn and McDonnell seem very much in favour of "out".

I understand what you are saying about Norway and Switzerland not being in the Customs Union, but no one considers the CU to be part of the single market which is why they speak of wanting to remain in the Single Market and the Customs Union.

Corbyn and McDonnell have indicated that they are pursuing a final Brexit deal which would see the end of freedom of movement. At least, this was their position at the June election:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... hite-paper" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This means being outside the single market. This means we won't enjoy economic benefits of a single market with many other countries of the EU in the way Norway and Switzerland do, in their various ways. Unless Corbyn and McDonnell change tack considerably which is what some Labour MPs and members such as myself are hoping they will do.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 4:17 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:
citizenJA wrote:@howsillyofme1
I can't agree with your last post
why?

howsillyofme1 wrote:Why does discussing with some Remainers remind me of the same exercise with Leavers....so sure of everything and not prepared for any nuance in their interpretations?

I do not see what a wiki definition of a 'single market' has to do with 'The EU Single Market' - I could link to a definition of 'conservative' to define 'Conservative' and it would be equally erroneous

This response to Willow904's post isn't justified, fair, accurate or constructive.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 4:28 pm

citizenJA wrote:
"The deep relationship with the EU that Mrs May urges to be “creatively” constructed – a continuation of the cake-and-eat-it approach Britain has sought and partly achieved as an EU member – cannot be done outside it."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... y-together" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
(cJA emphasis)

I do not see why that has relevance to what I have written as it is quite clear that any relationship outside the EU will be worse than staying in it......and for that blame the British people for voting that way and believing such obvious falsehoods from, mainly, the right wing

The argument is over this concept of 'membership of the Single Market' which I, and the Labour leadership, say is a meaningless term when outside the EU.

The one area where I agree with May is that whatever the UK will have is it will be a bespoke relationship as none of the existing models work as I can see it.

What EU seem to be saying is that whatever the agreement is it will need to be consistent with their interpretation of the 'four freedoms' if we want to have a close and unhindered trading relationship with them. As has been said may times, including in the post that PF linked to this morning, is that there is already some room for manoeuvre within the current rules that we have just chosen not to apply - including Free Movement - over a number of years.

The EU Commission want us to just to adopt the EEA as it easier for them but I would guess the HoG would be okay with a more bespoke agreement if it meant a good and close relationship post-transition.

The Tories cannot deliver this as they cannot, within their own party, maintain the commitment to the 'four freedoms' at all - Labour can as long as they have a message to sell to both sides in their electorate.

For many who voted Leave Single Market=EU Membership.........if we can break that link by not talking about the Single Market per se and actually talk about the outcomes the deal would bring us....economic stability, ease of movement, economic success, prevention of exploitation of labour etc then that would be a better bet in my view.

As I said Ireland does not have a solution without seemless integration with the EU systems so it will come to a head at some point

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 4:29 pm

Carwyn Jones

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 4:40 pm

HindleA wrote:Carwyn Jones

What about him?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 4:43 pm

Sorry Labour Party Conference speaking.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 4:45 pm

Willow904 wrote:Norway accepts the four freedoms and thus enjoys all the benefits of the single market.

Switzerland likewise accepts the four freedoms.

If the UK doesn't accept the four freedoms it won't enjoy all the benefits. It will be outside the single market.

I really can't put it any simpler than that. I'm talking about economic reality, not political semantics. It doesn't matter via what configuration the UK is a part of the economic bloc, we either accept the four freedoms and we are thus "in" or we don't accept the four freedoms and we are "out". And at the moment Corbyn and McDonnell seem very much in favour of "out".

I understand what you are saying about Norway and Switzerland not being in the Customs Union, but no one considers the CU to be part of the single market which is why they speak of wanting to remain in the Single Market and the Customs Union.

Corbyn and McDonnell have indicated that they are pursuing a final Brexit deal which would see the end of freedom of movement. At least, this was their position at the June election:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... hite-paper" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This means being outside the single market. This means we won't enjoy economic benefits of a single market with many other countries of the EU in the way Norway and Switzerland do, in their various ways. Unless Corbyn and McDonnell change tack considerably which is what some Labour MPs and members such as myself are hoping they will do.

I contest this view as being simple 'in' or 'out' - I agree you have to accept the four freedoms to be able to get seamless transfer between us and the EU, and I have never disputed this

What I dispute is this contention that saying that 'membership of the Single Market is only applicable to EU members' is such a terrible statement - I do not see that this stands up

Norway and Switzerland both have very different and complex agreements with the EU and I am glad that you bring up the CU - they are only divided in this context because the EU has allowed them to be for the agreements that they have made with some third countries.
The question doesn't arise for EU members and to be honest I find it difficult to accept the idea that there is really free movement of goods when they can get stopped at the border and admin/VAT added before delivery.........

But is it the EU's decision and they make up the rules even if they do look a little strange when it comes to tariff and non-tariff treatment of goods

In the end we need to enthuse people about the final deal - which may not be very different from the current state. Talking about custom unions and single market's does not seem to be the way to do that as they are abstract concepts to most people and are inextricably linked to the EU. Instead we should talk about what the outcome would be at the end of the talks and then work with the EU to make sure that is what we get....it would also enable us to amend our own interpretations of the four freedom principles that we are often told are erroneous

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 4:58 pm

citizenJA wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
citizenJA wrote:@howsillyofme1
I can't agree with your last post
why?
howsillyofme1 wrote:Why does discussing with some Remainers remind me of the same exercise with Leavers....so sure of everything and not prepared for any nuance in their interpretations?

I do not see what a wiki definition of a 'single market' has to do with 'The EU Single Market' - I could link to a definition of 'conservative' to define 'Conservative' and it would be equally erroneous
This response to Willow904's post isn't justified, fair, accurate or constructive.

I feel it is...sorry...my opinion

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 5:13 pm

@HSOM

What EU seem to be saying is that whatever the agreement is it will need to be consistent with their interpretation of the 'four freedoms' if we want to have a close and unhindered trading relationship with them.

This is exactly the point I've been making.

Corbyn has gone from not being "wedded to the idea" of freedom of movement of people last year to ruling it out in the June manifesto.

He then uses every opportunity when talking about the single market to raise objections and negatives and reasons why we shouldn't be part of it.

Your personal views of how we should be handling Brexit are all reasonable enough, I just don't see much similarity between what you are saying and what Corbyn and McDonnell are saying. At least they didn't vote for the Tory EU withdrawal bill like Skinner, but they have long held similar views on the single market and so it's hard not to believe they are sincere when they talk negatively about the single market and freedom of movement.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 5:14 pm

Looks like the CDU have done quite a bit worse in the German elections than was predicted.

Dreadful performance for the SPD but that *was* expected. They are already briefing they will go into opposition, which frankly can't happen too soon.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 5:31 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Looks like the CDU have done quite a bit worse in the German elections than was predicted.

Dreadful performance for the SPD but that *was* expected. They are already briefing they will go into opposition, which frankly can't happen too soon.

Populists offeriing solutions in crayon on the march everywhere, even in Germany.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 5:46 pm

German elections 2017: Angela Merkel wins fourth term but AfD makes gains, exit poll says
SPD in opposition, not coalition

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 5:52 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Looks like the CDU have done quite a bit worse in the German elections than was predicted.

Dreadful performance for the SPD but that *was* expected. They are already briefing they will go into opposition, which frankly can't happen too soon.
Populists offeriing solutions in crayon on the march everywhere, even in Germany.

Blaming the electorate isn't going to work any better for your tendency now than it did for the left in the 1980s.