Saturday 23rd & Sunday 24th September 2017

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 12:36 am

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 12:47 am

I blame that Yorkshire bloke,Paul.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 1:31 am

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... tification" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ministers told to cut wait for new benefit amid evidence it is causing debt

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 9:25 am

Weird to think anyone actually needs evidence before they get that not having any money to live on will lead to debt.

Morning all.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 9:42 am

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... rce-crisis" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Low-skilled jobs, those that do not require a degree or equivalent, would be closed to EU nationals in line with rules restricting applications from non-EU migrants. And jobs that EU nationals could apply for would have to pay a minimum of £30,000. In certain key sectors, this threshold would be raised.

Weird how all these xenophobic leave voters are perfectly happy to give all our best jobs away to Johnny foreigner. It's almost as if it's not foreigners they despise, but poor people. Poorly paid people are the bedrock of everything they take for granted about our advanced economy, though. No gratitude, some people.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 9:46 am

It all plays into our fundamental sense of being not quite up to it (after 2 millennia of a Roman/Saxon/Viking/Norman aristocracy telling us that we're not and us believing them).

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 9:48 am

Oh yeah, and a general education policy that means you have to have the money to live in an area that allows you to get a decent education.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 9:58 am

Why would this matter?

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/m ... c57ff2b51a" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

After all, Corbyn just ignored last yea's conference resolution on Brexit. Member power only really means member power when he agrees with them.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 10:14 am

(I'm living in a neon house)

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 10:15 am

Good morfternoon.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 10:20 am

SpinningHugo wrote:Why would this matter?

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/m ... c57ff2b51a" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

After all, Corbyn just ignored last yea's conference resolution on Brexit. Member power only really means member power when he agrees with them.

You used to be interesting, even when you disagreed with most of us. You're now just another "Brexit betrayal" obsessive.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 10:25 am

Corbyn clear on Marr on why he backs leaving the single market.

He is a Breciteer.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 10:26 am

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 10:31 am

Brexit means Brecit.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 10:34 am

Is that the English use of the word 'interesting' ?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 10:34 am

tinyclanger2 wrote:Brexit means Brecit.

I always suspected as much.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 10:35 am

EXCL Len McCluskey tells Theresa May: I never compared myself to Nelson Mandela
https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/wo ... red-myself" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Whereas most of the rest of us have?

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 10:36 am

howsillyofme1 wrote:Is that the English use of the word 'interesting' ?

Coincidentally I have spent some of this weekend practising saying 'interesting' in different tones which allow me to be non-committal - or even oppositional - without being perceived as sarcastic. I think I have it nailed now.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 10:38 am

tinyclanger2 wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:Is that the English use of the word 'interesting' ?
Coincidentally I have spent some of this weekend practising saying 'interesting' in different tones which allow me to be non-committal - or even oppositional - without being perceived as sarcastic. I think I have it nailed now.

Interesting. (How am I doing?)

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 10:41 am

PorFavor wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:Is that the English use of the word 'interesting' ?
Coincidentally I have spent some of this weekend practising saying 'interesting' in different tones which allow me to be non-committal - or even oppositional - without being perceived as sarcastic. I think I have it nailed now.
Interesting. (How am I doing?)

No - that sounded like the way my dad discusses mother's cooking. Have another go.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 10:41 am

tinyclanger2 wrote:
EXCL Len McCluskey tells Theresa May: I never compared myself to Nelson Mandela
https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/wo ... red-myself" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Whereas most of the rest of us have?

Its a pretty bizarre episode all round, really

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 10:41 am

@tc2 Presumably with added facial expressions/body movements for emphasis?

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 10:43 am

Yes I've been including efforts to look sincere but still thinking about it.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 10:44 am

Anyway, wasn't the world supposed to end yesterday?

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 10:45 am

perhaps it did and we're now living in The Others

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 10:47 am

(in a neon house)

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 10:49 am

It is tricky.....and I have failed lots of times

I did say to one of my German colleagues that their idea was interesting but needed some further consideration - the person then went away and came back with a more worked up version of their 'interesting' idea rather than throwing it in the bin which was my original intention - obviously my body language showing the absolute disdain I had for the idea failed

I now tend to just say - do it again!

One thing being in a non-Anglophone environment is to make me more direct with my use of English

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 10:51 am

Meanwhile

The future of New Zealand’s new government has been put in the hands of Winston Peters, a cantankerous, anti-immigration politician who prefers fishing to politics, after vote counting finished in the general election.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... parliament" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 10:54 am

I always think of Manny Shinwell when the Labour Party Conference, is on,must be etched in my nonce from an early viewing.One of the few mentioned,by my mum.

[youtube]r8e1KylrDes[/youtube]

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 10:55 am

Fenner Brockway

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 11:01 am

Walter Wolfgang 2005 vintage

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 11:02 am

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/bl ... itics-live" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Corbyn says a lot of people were fed up with the way things were.

Interesting.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 11:04 am

Willow904 wrote:---
Weird how all these xenophobic leave voters are perfectly happy to give all our best jobs away to Johnny foreigner. It's almost as if it's not foreigners they despise, but poor people. Poorly paid people are the bedrock of everything they take for granted about our advanced economy, though. No gratitude, some people.

Yes, this

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 11:05 am

Good-morning, everyone

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 11:08 am

Ultimately, this study demonstrates that generous welfare states are more likely to grant immigrants access to welfare benefits, and less generous welfare states are more likely to exclude immigrants from access.
http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10. ... 8717696441" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 11:09 am

Wouldn't mind a move to encourage academics to use fewer words.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 11:15 am

HindleA wrote:I always think of Manny Shinwell when the Labour Party Conference, is on,must be etched in my nonce from an early viewing.One of the few mentioned,by my mum.

[youtube]r8e1KylrDes[/youtube]

Slightly unfortunate typo there!

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 11:20 am

Oops.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 11:43 am

On Twitter Andy Tarrant, an EU competition law specialist, flags up a report he wrote with Andrea Biondi, a law professor, for the Renewal: A Journal of Social Democracy saying that EU law would not stop Labour implementing its policies. He thinks Jeremy Corbyn was wrong in what he said about this on the Marr show. (See 11.01am.)

Here is their conclusion.

As it develops its position on the UK’s future relationship with the EU, the Labour party should not be held back by incorrect assumptions about the constraints imposed by single market membership on its economic policies. Neither EU state aid rules, nor other EU rules which are distinct from state aid rules but sometimes considered in the same bracket, provide any obvious barrier to the implementation in the UK of the measures contained in Labour’s 2017 election manifesto. (Politics Live, Guardian)

I really wish that this issue could be put conclusively to bed - one way or another. If the above is incontrovertably true, then Jeremy Corbyn must get to grips with it and outline what his objections to the EU really are - and if he thinks that there are any changes that he would like to see made to find a way around them. As a (not unconditional) EU membership supporter, this is important to me.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 11:45 am

Tried the extra large font emphasising appreciation for Willow904's contribution
for myself personally at the moment, I'm no mood for levity on this subject

Ungrateful wretches, hear me
try getting through your day without the work people paid £20,000 per anum or less are living on and see how that works out for you

I've used £20,000 amount generally, to make a point
Many people doing vital work are paid a lost less

Someone's job just got turned into an apprenticeship
A first year apprentice is anyone not having completed that work as an apprentice with that employer
Regardless of how long they've done the work, £3.50 an hour is what every first year apprentice is paid
£3.50 an hour for 12 months, no more

I wrote it here last night
What's called, 'unskilled labour', is a feeble descriptive label attempting justification for paying low wages
It's UK employers using Tory UK laws for not paying everyone properly for their work
It's occurred in the UK while the UK is part of the EU not because the EU made it happen, Tory UK made it happen

We're in some pretty shit with a Tory UK in or out of the EU

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 12:05 pm

Good-afternoon, everyone

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 12:08 pm

PorFavor wrote:

On Twitter Andy Tarrant, an EU competition law specialist, flags up a report he wrote with Andrea Biondi, a law professor, for the Renewal: A Journal of Social Democracy saying that EU law would not stop Labour implementing its policies. He thinks Jeremy Corbyn was wrong in what he said about this on the Marr show. (See 11.01am.)

Here is their conclusion.

As it develops its position on the UK’s future relationship with the EU, the Labour party should not be held back by incorrect assumptions about the constraints imposed by single market membership on its economic policies. Neither EU state aid rules, nor other EU rules which are distinct from state aid rules but sometimes considered in the same bracket, provide any obvious barrier to the implementation in the UK of the measures contained in Labour’s 2017 election manifesto. (Politics Live, Guardian)
I really wish that this issue could be put conclusively to bed - one way or another. If the above is incontrovertably true, then Jeremy Corbyn must get to grips with it and outline what his objections to the EU really are - and if he thinks that there are any changes that he would like to see made to find a way around them. As a (not unconditional) EU membership supporter, this is important to me.

Every time Jeremy Corbyn is interviewed about the EU and the SM he chooses to highlight perceived (often erroneous) negatives about them. It's not the behaviour of someone who supports the EU or our remaining in the single market in any meaningful way. The fact that Dennis Skinner voted for a Tory EU withdrawal bill that seriously threatens the sovereignty of Parliament reflects how even the most principled left winger can have obsessional blindspots which are very much not in the nation's best interests. Corbyn may be isolated in his views on the EU but he is also the Labour leader so what he says has influence and in respect of the EU, whether deliberately or not, that influence is being used to misinform people in a way that persuades them away from supporting a soft Brexit towards supporting a hard Brexit. It's very frustrating, to say the least.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 12:10 pm

@PorFavor
Very fair, well said

Another subject entirely
I logged off last night with a goodnight post to HindleA and didn't see your goodnight post
I don't forget you

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 12:13 pm

@Willow904
I share your concerns about the Labour leader over this issue

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 12:16 pm

citizenJA wrote:@Willow904
I share your concerns about the Labour leader over this issue

He was good on other stuff, but it's hard to ignore the fact that both he and McDonnell are adopting a strategy of trying to persuade support away from single market membership rather than towards it.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 12:24 pm

PorFavor wrote:

On Twitter Andy Tarrant, an EU competition law specialist, flags up a report he wrote with Andrea Biondi, a law professor, for the Renewal: A Journal of Social Democracy saying that EU law would not stop Labour implementing its policies. He thinks Jeremy Corbyn was wrong in what he said about this on the Marr show. (See 11.01am.)

Here is their conclusion.

As it develops its position on the UK’s future relationship with the EU, the Labour party should not be held back by incorrect assumptions about the constraints imposed by single market membership on its economic policies. Neither EU state aid rules, nor other EU rules which are distinct from state aid rules but sometimes considered in the same bracket, provide any obvious barrier to the implementation in the UK of the measures contained in Labour’s 2017 election manifesto. (Politics Live, Guardian)
I really wish that this issue could be put conclusively to bed - one way or another. If the above is incontrovertably true, then Jeremy Corbyn must get to grips with it and outline what his objections to the EU really are - and if he thinks that there are any changes that he would like to see made to find a way around them. As a (not unconditional) EU membership supporter, this is important to me.

PF

I understand where you are coming from and have watched the Corbyn, McDonnell interviews with interest this morning

I think the assumption that they do not have a grip on these things may be a little unfair as I think they know full well what can or cannot be done - it is the same with FoM which McDonnell was asked a lot about on Peston. They use subjects such as this as examples to make specific points that they want the EU to be aware of

They have definitely moved towards a more pro EU rhetoric than there was and we do not know what they are saying or being told by the EU behind the scenes - if what they are saying is already allowed then I am sure the EU are telling them that. Starmer is being very quiet and my assumption would be that he is having some interesting conversations at the moment

They are trying to hold the line as to being focused on outcomes and trying not to be caught saying that they would advocate staying in the SM....it is dancing on the head of a pin and is a bloody hard thing to do. They have not actually been completely caught out yet. I think this contrasts with the approach of Flint on FoM where she explicitly says we have to put in place controls that would be absolutely unacceptable to the EU

There are a couple of confounding issues - Corbyn is absolutely not a fan of the Single Market as a concept and I think he has seen it as a Tory construct that did not pay enough attention or protect sufficiently the rights of workers. I sympathise with this point of view and we should not treat it as something that is uniformly wonderful. He also, though, I think understands that being completely separated from it is an economic nonsense. I imagine he would want and desires some quite significant reform to some of the rules...or at least how they are presented and interpreted

I cannot be sure I am right but both Corbyn and McDonnell have proved to be much more politically astute and wily than they have been given credit for and so I think they have earned the benefit of the doubt

Also, on Peston it was good to see a Tory being called out by both Umunna and McDonnell for blatant misrepresentations (sorry - lying) about Labour's tuition fee plans

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 12:25 pm

http://www.labour.org.uk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 12:28 pm

Every time Jeremy Corbyn is interviewed about the EU and the SM he chooses to highlight perceived (often erroneous) negatives about them. It's not the behaviour of someone who supports the EU or our remaining in the single market in any meaningful way. The fact that Dennis Skinner voted for a Tory EU withdrawal bill that seriously threatens the sovereignty of Parliament reflects how even the most principled left winger can have obsessional blindspots which are very much not in the nation's best interests. Corbyn may be isolated in his views on the EU but he is also the Labour leader so what he says has influence and in respect of the EU, whether deliberately or not, that influence is being used to misinform people in a way that persuades them away from supporting a soft Brexit towards supporting a hard Brexit. It's very frustrating, to say the least.

So when he changes his mind and argument he appears more credible?

I actually find myself more anti EU after hearing someone like Clegg to be honest.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 12:30 pm

I'm not a sophisticated person, what I don't know about a lot of things is a lot. I can't afford intrigue or political machination.

I expect one thing from Labour and the Labour leader and that is getting into government in order for a Labour government competently, dutifully representing regular people and the UK, acting in the best interests of people and country and fixing what Tory government does wrong.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 12:42 pm

It's not pretend humility, acknowledging I'm unsophisticated. I used to think of myself as urbane, experienced. I'm not.