Friday 6th October 2017

Post by **refitman** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 7:09 am

Morning all.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 7:33 am

Andrew Defty‏ @adefty 28m28 minutes ago
More
Grant Shapps has a list of 30 names of MPs who want May to go, unfortunately they're all him.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 7:52 am

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ncan-smith" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
However, there was pressure for May from elsewhere in the party. One Conservative donor, Charlie Mullins, of Pimlico Plumbers, broke ranks to claim that it was time for her to go. He told the Guardian that if it were a boxing match the fight would have been stopped. “She needs to chuck the towel in,” he said.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 7:58 am

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... eam-speech" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Theresa May’s party conference evocation of “The British Dream” might have left some British voters mystified. But in Xi Jinping’s China her words sounded strangely familiar.

The Communist party supremo has made the pursuit of the so-called “Chinese Dream” his chief political slogan since he took power nearly five years ago vowing to lead a historic revival of his country’s fortunes.

And then there's those tricky lines between dream, reality and nightmare.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 8:06 am

Certainly great to see the massive diversity of Europe so well reflected in its leaders.

: no lack of diversity issues here then.jpg (114.21 KiB) Viewed 16234 times

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 75241.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 8:10 am

Hello.

You thought QT was bad enough, here's who we paid for to appear on This Week afterwards:

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Lord knows I can't stand Kuenssberg, but full-throated protests really would be better directed at James Harding. It is an absolute scandal what he has done to the BBC's reputation. Just wait until Murdoch clocks it, and see the coverage of that...

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 8:25 am

While we're being cross with the BBC, it appears Dimbleby attempted to repeat the Corbyn student debt lie on QT last night.

So, here again is the full transcript of that part of the NME interview.

Yes, there is a block of those that currently have a massive debt, and I’m looking at ways that we could reduce that, ameliorate that, lengthen the period of paying it off, or some other means of reducing that debt burden.

I don’t have the simple answer for it yet - I don’t think anybody would expect me to, because this election was called unexpectedly; we had two weeks to prepare all this - but I’m very well aware of that problem.

And I don’t see why those that had the historical misfortune to be at university during the £9,000 period should be burdened excessively compared to those that went before or those that come after. I will deal with it.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 8:27 am

Comprehensive study of tuition fees n England and Wales

http://www.nber.org/papers/w23888#fromrss" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Try to read with an open mind.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 8:32 am

SpinningHugo wrote:Comprehensive study of tuition fees n England and Wales

http://www.nber.org/papers/w23888#fromrss" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Try to read with an open mind.

Morning

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 8:37 am

For what it's worth, I accept some of the economic arguments around tuition fees. What is missing from that discussion is how the fee culture is changing the nature of the teacher student relationship in universities and thus having an enormous impact on what a university education actually is.

It would be better IMHO to go back to lower fees.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 9:08 am

Good morfternoon.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 9:12 am

On openness of mind I do find that a fuse evaluates your rapid gene past the studio.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 9:14 am

University education now little more than a training for a job (having, ironically, just made all the polytechnics universities, because polytechnics 'weren't good enough').

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 9:19 am

QI: Bloomberg Brexit Bulletin

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... -in-charge" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 9:19 am

EasyJet sees £100 million currency hit following Brexit vote
https://www.ttgmedia.com//news/news/eas ... ote--11828" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 9:25 am

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2017/10 ... age-again/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
WATCH: Spanish MEP Says ‘Best Thing About Brexit Is Never Listening Farage Again’

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 9:30 am

"My country cannot accept democratic lessons from whom I do not consider to be a democrat. And the proof that he is not a democrat is that he [farage] is not even staying to listen to my response. Mr Farage makes me feel happy about Brexit, because thanks to Brexit the extreme right will leave this chamber. The only good thing about Brexit is that we will never have to listen to him again."

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 10:15 am

[quote="PaulfromYorkshire"]For what it's worth, I accept some of the economic arguments around tuition fees. What is missing from that discussion is how the fee culture is changing the nature of the teacher student relationship in universities /quote]

It is far better and more professional now.

Post by **adam** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 10:23 am

International Campaign to Abolish Nuclear Weapons wins Nobel Peace Prize.

They know how to tweak the hawks, those Norwegians do.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 10:24 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:While we're being cross with the BBC, it appears Dimbleby attempted to repeat the Corbyn student debt lie on QT last night.

So, here again is the full transcript of that part of the NME interview.
Yes, there is a block of those that currently have a massive debt, and I’m looking at ways that we could reduce that, ameliorate that, lengthen the period of paying it off, or some other means of reducing that debt burden.

I don’t have the simple answer for it yet - I don’t think anybody would expect me to, because this election was called unexpectedly; we had two weeks to prepare all this - but I’m very well aware of that problem.

And I don’t see why those that had the historical misfortune to be at university during the £9,000 period should be burdened excessively compared to those that went before or those that come after. I will deal with it.

Not just that, but DD apparently rather rudely shut Angela Rayner up when she tried to correct him on it.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 10:34 am

SpinningHugo wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:For what it's worth, I accept some of the economic arguments around tuition fees. What is missing from that discussion is how the fee culture is changing the nature of the teacher student relationship in universities
It is far better and more professional now.

And yet the parade rebuilds a terminology.

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 11:11 am

This country gave the world Sherlock Holmes, Poirot and Inspector Morse, yet clearly there are many inhabitants who haven't even reached the Scooby-Doo stage of being able to identify villains...

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citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 11:14 am

tinyclanger2 wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:For what it's worth, I accept some of the economic arguments around tuition fees. What is missing from that discussion is how the fee culture is changing the nature of the teacher student relationship in universities
It is far better and more professional now.
And yet the parade rebuilds a terminology.

I like your words

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 11:17 am

Good-morning, everyone

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 11:18 am

Michel Gove is out defending Theresa May today. Bordering on "will of the people" stuff.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 11:20 am

I am forever missing the point
apologies

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 11:31 am

Commenting, on today’s productivity figures, ONS Head of Productivity Philip Wales said: http://ow.ly/PZvJ30fGq9R" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
9:35 AM - Oct 6, 2017 (Politics Live, Guardian)

Has tinyclanger2 had the random sentence generator hijacked?

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 11:43 am

I think what he was trying to say was that the bird estimates the identical company within a fuss.

Had said asset been hijacked as you suggest, he would have said it much better.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 11:43 am

Indeed

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 11:54 am

Nadine Dorries thinks that the move to unseat Theresa May is an attempt to "crush" Boris Johnson. Theresa May's ego must be really boosted if she's heard that she's merely a bit-player in the Boris Johnson farce.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 11:57 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:While we're being cross with the BBC, it appears Dimbleby attempted to repeat the Corbyn student debt lie on QT last night.

So, here again is the full transcript of that part of the NME interview.
Yes, there is a block of those that currently have a massive debt, and I’m looking at ways that we could reduce that, ameliorate that, lengthen the period of paying it off, or some other means of reducing that debt burden.

I don’t have the simple answer for it yet - I don’t think anybody would expect me to, because this election was called unexpectedly; we had two weeks to prepare all this - but I’m very well aware of that problem.

And I don’t see why those that had the historical misfortune to be at university during the £9,000 period should be burdened excessively compared to those that went before or those that come after. I will deal with it.
Not just that, but DD apparently rather rudely shut Angela Rayner up when she tried to correct him on it.

She was however dire on whether disadvantaged students have been deterred from going to University, politely just flat wrong, and Dimbleby was right to call her on it.

But, it is what people want to believe, so there we are.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 12:10 pm

Kevin Skinner‏ @WynStonesmith 13h13 hours ago
More
Got to hand it to #bbcqt You managed to get more Tories in your audience than their party conference had in theirs.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 12:11 pm

Oh - I liked this one:

Mehreen‏ @josemehrinho 13h13 hours ago
More
People who use the word "Remoaner" are absolutely the people who moan to everyone else about everything else but Brexit. #bbcqt

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 12:14 pm

Theresa May's forthcoming visit to China (to boost trade) has been bumped off the Chinese agenda as they've got better things to do.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 12:15 pm

UK: Watch out world here we come.
World: Was that a mosquito?

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 12:18 pm

World on reflection: no it was just a bar fly.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 12:23 pm

Theresa May is attending a coffee (no pun intended) morning in her Maidenhead constituency (Sky News).

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 12:29 pm

[youtube]mChQs9QD7ms[/youtube]

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 12:32 pm

I am not paying to read something recommended by Hugo....can we try to resist posting links that are behind paywalls etc that others cannot read

My own take it is too early to see the impact of 9K+ tuition fees as we have not yet seen enough people who have gone through the system and how the paying back rates look

What the impact is will not become apparent for 10 years or so - it could go two ways

People actually have to pay back their debt and the consequences of that are more apparent to the young so they are more reticent on taking on that debt in the first place or the payback rates are lower than expected and the impact on the public finances is significant. There is also the long-term view of how tuition fee debt is taken into consideration

Students ar eleaving university with a nominal debt of at least £30K - if that is not making some people think very hard about the impact of that then it should be doing so

Are people put off going to university - some say no, some say yes looking at different data points - but we also have to look at how society has changed over the last 20 years when it comes to debt. My own impression that the 10 years of low interest rates and the renewed availability of debt makes people think....sod it, what does another 30K matter on top of probable other debts.....in fact how many of those at university ever have enough money to have a mortgage in the future so it may not seem so bad

I think loading debt onto individuals like this at such a young age is immoral and I think there will be foreseen and unforeseen consequences in the future - we just have not seen enough of the issues becoming visible yet. The Government is shifting borrowing from itself (at low interest) to individuals (at high interest) - and please don't give me any of that shit about 'a dustbin man paying for someone to go to university blah blah blah' - I do not accept that argument at all

Tuition fees should be set at somewhat less that 3K per annum (personally I would prefer arond 1K) with direct taxes paying for the rest

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 12:35 pm

PorFavor wrote:Theresa May is attending a coffee (no pun intended) morning in her Maidenhead constituency (Sky News).

So she's not resigning today, then?

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 12:46 pm

NonOxCol wrote:This country gave the world Sherlock Holmes, Poirot and Inspector Morse

Accidental Partridge!!

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 12:57 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:While we're being cross with the BBC, it appears Dimbleby attempted to repeat the Corbyn student debt lie on QT last night.

So, here again is the full transcript of that part of the NME interview.
Yes, there is a block of those that currently have a massive debt, and I’m looking at ways that we could reduce that, ameliorate that, lengthen the period of paying it off, or some other means of reducing that debt burden.

I don’t have the simple answer for it yet - I don’t think anybody would expect me to, because this election was called unexpectedly; we had two weeks to prepare all this - but I’m very well aware of that problem.

And I don’t see why those that had the historical misfortune to be at university during the £9,000 period should be burdened excessively compared to those that went before or those that come after. I will deal with it.

Wasn't there a Labour spokesperson who did tweet out stuff about abolishing student debt? Or am I imagining that?

Corbyn's statement there is fine.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 12:59 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:I am not paying to read something recommended by Hugo....

I'm not paying to read something by Richard Murphy! So that's likely to remain unread.

Edit- that's a different Richard Murphy!

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 1:17 pm

http://www.ludlowadvertiser.co.uk/news/ ... ref=twtrec" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Don't split us up': Immigration staff tell Fownhope mum she faces deportation to Japan

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 1:35 pm

https://www.insidehousing.co.uk/news/so ... hird-52689" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Social lettings to single homeless people have fallen by nearly a third

(Re howsilly's point if you can't read,I will post article on request with no charge)

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 1:38 pm

https://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/news ... -published" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Guidance on Work Capability Assessment reassessment published
06 October 2017
DWP reveal how it will decide not to carry out WCA reassessments.

There are still people waiting to be transferred,coming up to ten years.Some like us in effect had an income reduction-Labour enacted, Brown offset in canny precise targeted "gaps/ways of boosting income for the not expected to work" not many would know,in particular circumstances,rather the first to go under the UC cover.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 1:39 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Not just that, but DD apparently rather rudely shut Angela Rayner up when she tried to correct him on it.
She was however dire on whether disadvantaged students have been deterred from going to University, politely just flat wrong, and Dimbleby was right to call her on it.

But, it is what people want to believe, so there we are.

Lies, damned lies and statistics eh?

I believe it is true that a higher percentage of Uni students are now from poorer backgrounds.

But remember that Universities who charge higher fees (i.e. pretty much all of them) now have to demonstrate they are widening participation.

It would be perfectly plausible to retain this second policy while reducing fees. This would certainly lead to even more poorer students attending Uni because it would be more affordable and Unis would still be making it easier for them to attend.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 1:45 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:For what it's worth, I accept some of the economic arguments around tuition fees. What is missing from that discussion is how the fee culture is changing the nature of the teacher student relationship in universities and thus having an enormous impact on what a university education actually is.

It would be better IMHO to go back to lower fees.

Would any changes from my era (early 90s) be down to fees or the sort of performance management tools that have become much more common across the public sector since the Citizens Charter?

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 1:48 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Not just that, but DD apparently rather rudely shut Angela Rayner up when she tried to correct him on it.
She was however dire on whether disadvantaged students have been deterred from going to University, politely just flat wrong, and Dimbleby was right to call her on it.

But, it is what people want to believe, so there we are.
Lies, damned lies and statistics eh?

I believe it is true that a higher percentage of Uni students are now from poorer backgrounds.

But remember that Universities who charge higher fees (i.e. pretty much all of them) now have to demonstrate they are widening participation.

It would be perfectly plausible to retain this second policy while reducing fees. This would certainly lead to even more poorer students attending Uni because it would be more affordable and Unis would still be making it easier for them to attend.

The poorer students are better helped by grants though. Even by the current government's standards, the policy of abolishing those is an outrage. It's even worse than the deplorable standard of poor-hitting managed by Scotland.

But I agree with you that fees are too high.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 1:56 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
She was however dire on whether disadvantaged students have been deterred from going to University, politely just flat wrong, and Dimbleby was right to call her on it.

But, it is what people want to believe, so there we are.
Lies, damned lies and statistics eh?

I believe it is true that a higher percentage of Uni students are now from poorer backgrounds.

But remember that Universities who charge higher fees (i.e. pretty much all of them) now have to demonstrate they are widening participation.

It would be perfectly plausible to retain this second policy while reducing fees. This would certainly lead to even more poorer students attending Uni because it would be more affordable and Unis would still be making it easier for them to attend.
The poorer students are better helped by grants though. Even by the current government's standards, the policy of abolishing those is an outrage. It's even worse than the deplorable standard of poor-hitting managed by Scotland.

But I agree with you that fees are too high.

Yes understood.

I'm just trying to point out to open minded fellow posters that just because the % of poorer students has increased with increasing fees doesn't mean the fees are not a disincentive.