Friday 6th October 2017

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 2:00 pm

I will have to get back to on the open mind or not question,once I locate it.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 2:22 pm

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... ho-its-for" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Policy paper
Help to Save - what it is and who it's for

(Osborne's nabbing of the Savings Gateway,suitably adjusted to exclude his usual targets)

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 2:45 pm

http://www.gloucestershirelive.co.uk/ne ... ar_twitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Government tells claimant benefit was rejected because they had 'joined religious order'

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 2:47 pm

I now have the bloody phrase "calm leadership" stuck in my head.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 2:49 pm

what was the other one - smooth and sensible Brexit?

something along those lines.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 2:50 pm

For what it's worth I still have just an illusion in my brain from the other week.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 3:02 pm

Honky Tonk Women,but that might be because PF's on to her third bottle of gin and doing Mick Jagger impersonations.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 3:03 pm

HindleA wrote:Honky Tonk Women,but that might be because PF's on to her third bottle of gin and doing Mick Jagger impersonations.

when isn't she?

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 3:10 pm

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 85956.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
“Scotland’s MPs – SNP and others - have an historic opportunity to make our mark, lead and save the UK from the cliff edge of leaving the European single market. We should grab it with both hands.”

Any views?

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 3:15 pm

All MPs have that opportunity. Nothing particular about "Scotland".

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 3:17 pm

True.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 3:19 pm

https://www.snp.org/conference" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Link to SNP Conference Agenda and fringe guide.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 3:27 pm

HindleA wrote:True.

I was a bit harsh. After all, Davidson did seek to put distance between herself and May.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 3:29 pm

Theresa May quote from the Guardian -

“And next week I’m going to be updating MPs on my Florence speech, which has given real momentum to the Brexit talks.

I don't understand how you can give an "update" on a speech which has changed little or nothing and which has already been delivered. Unless she's now got a better version of the speech - a "This is What I Should Have Said in Florence" rewrite.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 3:31 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:All MPs have that opportunity. Nothing particular about "Scotland".

Only that TWOTP in Scotland was for remain.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 3:38 pm

I guess this what Banks and Martin had in mind:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/busin ... 86006.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 3:54 pm

gilsey wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:All MPs have that opportunity. Nothing particular about "Scotland".
Only that TWOTP in Scotland was for remain.

By that logic, the will of England and Wales was to leave.

It's a good thing couched in Nat bollocks.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 3:59 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 85956.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
“Scotland’s MPs – SNP and others - have an historic opportunity to make our mark, lead and save the UK from the cliff edge of leaving the European single market. We should grab it with both hands.”
Any views?

This Labour party member thanks any MPs stopping demented Tory Brexit

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 4:07 pm

Don't miss the Clanger weekend disco classics. Coming soon on FTN.
Boogie.
On.
Down.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 4:07 pm

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

Remain a member of the European Union
OR
Leave the European Union

https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/ ... assessment" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 4:30 pm

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-41529867" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

: yougov_brexit_handling_640-nc.png (50.07 KiB) Viewed 15597 times

am missing the data for 'kin' sh*te

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 4:47 pm

https://www.conservativehome.com/thecol ... he-uk.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Whatever offers had been made by the David Davis and his team over the past couple of months, we would be no further forward. However generous and conciliatory Theresa May was in her Florence speech (which helped to improve the mood music in both Brussels and many of the EU27 capitals) it was never going to be enough.

While there is always the chance that both sides may tumble out of the ring at the final bell without a conclusive result, it is probable we will see a split decision or, perhaps even better, agree to call it a draw, shaking hands with both sides emerging as winners.

And they all lived happily ever after.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 4:59 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:While we're being cross with the BBC, it appears Dimbleby attempted to repeat the Corbyn student debt lie on QT last night.

So, here again is the full transcript of that part of the NME interview.
Yes, there is a block of those that currently have a massive debt, and I’m looking at ways that we could reduce that, ameliorate that, lengthen the period of paying it off, or some other means of reducing that debt burden.

I don’t have the simple answer for it yet - I don’t think anybody would expect me to, because this election was called unexpectedly; we had two weeks to prepare all this - but I’m very well aware of that problem.

And I don’t see why those that had the historical misfortune to be at university during the £9,000 period should be burdened excessively compared to those that went before or those that come after. I will deal with it.
Wasn't there a Labour spokesperson who did tweet out stuff about abolishing student debt? Or am I imagining that?

Corbyn's statement there is fine.

Might have been Sharon Hodgson IIRC, still its a pretty shoogly nail to hang a "betrayal" narrative on.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 5:00 pm

If they change it from Corbyn betrays to Labour betrays, it's a decent card, and even true.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 5:05 pm

https://www.webwire.com/ViewPressRel.asp?aId=214848" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
“For the V&A and other museums the impact of our exit from the EU could have a profound effect on the lending and borrowing of our collections, potentially jeopardising our ability to function as world-class exhibition venues, reducing our capacity to share our collections with others and limiting the formation of constructive cultured partnerships.”

The V&A’s loans-out programme currently sees the largest number of objects travelling to EU countries and during the past year, 51% of loans to temporary exhibitions were to venues inside the EU and European Economic Area.

Apart from the increased salaries (because no-one wants to be here) story I posted before I am yet to see a tale that illustrates a benefit of leaving the EU. I've only seen WOTP, sovereignty (whatever the hell that is in this day and age) and taking back control. What are the actual tangible benefits that these Leave types foresee? That's all I seek to understand. (As I intimated earlier I doubt Banks and Martin see the increased staff salaries as their main motivation)

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 5:07 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:If they change it from Corbyn betrays to Labour betrays, it's a decent card, and even true.

One junior Labour spokesperson speaking out of turn? Not convinced really.

Anyway they can't refrain from personalising it.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 5:09 pm

tinybgoat wrote:https://www.conservativehome.com/thecol ... he-uk.html
Whatever offers had been made by the David Davis and his team over the past couple of months, we would be no further forward. However generous and conciliatory Theresa May was in her Florence speech (which helped to improve the mood music in both Brussels and many of the EU27 capitals) it was never going to be enough.

While there is always the chance that both sides may tumble out of the ring at the final bell without a conclusive result, it is probable we will see a split decision or, perhaps even better, agree to call it a draw, shaking hands with both sides emerging as winners.
And they all lived happily ever after.

I liked this bit.

he EU has no idea how to fill the €9 billion net or more a year budget gap that will be left by the UK’s departure and is relying on Michel Barnier playing hard ball.

Given that the EU will not cut its cloth accordingly, politicians in Sweden, Austria and Denmark have made it clear they have no intention of increasing their contributions, while net recipients such as Poland are equally determined their benefits should not be reduced. Meanwhile, proposals that Brussels should raise its own resources via EU-wide taxes are meeting resistance in member states. In short, the bloc needs our money to kick the crisis further the road.

It's almost like countries are adopting negotiating positions or something!

"has no idea" here means "haven't publicly agreed on something yet".

He needs to look closer to home for "has no idea".

Great Brexiter on there who says "Don't believe the Europhile FT" and is asked if they really think the WTO (reported in the FT story) are lying. It's pathetic man playing rubbish, typical of Brexit.

Talking of which, the article's section on Barnier is very amusing. Does anybody think Angela Merkel and others aren't behind him?

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 5:11 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:If they change it from Corbyn betrays to Labour betrays, it's a decent card, and even true.
One junior Labour spokesperson speaking out of turn? Not convinced really.

Anyway they can't refrain from personalising it.

I think she was the spokesperson, wasn't she?

Fair game, I'd say. Labour has to explain.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 5:21 pm

Faisal Islam‏Verified account
@faisalislam
Follow
More
It's all kicking off on Tory MP WhatsApp group. Various MPs accused of being on Shapps list, denounced if don't answer within a few mins...

Fight! Fight!

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 5:25 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... dy-burnham" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 5:26 pm

http://press.labour.org.uk/post/1661129 ... he-saga-of" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 5:27 pm

Sheriff from Blazing Saddles latest.

Leave Means Leave‏
@LeaveMnsLeave
.@OwenPaterson: If the EU are still messing around by Christmas, we should give notice that we will be moving to WTO rules #CPC17

Great bit of finger pointing video with it too. It's the best since The Christians released When The Fingers Point.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 5:29 pm

http://www.parliament.uk/business/commi ... ion-17-19/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Uber, Hermes and Deliveroo questioned on employment practices
The Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy Committee hold an oral evidence session with representatives from three companies who rely on a flexible, self-employed workforce.

Witnesses
Tuesday 10 October 2017, Committee Room 6, Palace of Westminster

At 10.45am

Andrew Byrne, Head of Public Policy, Uber
Hugo Martin, Director of Legal Affairs, Hermes
Dan Warne, Managing Director UK and Ireland, Deliveroo

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 5:33 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... CMP=twt_gu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Trump substantially weakens Obamacare contraception mandate
Many more employers allowed to opt out of requirement to cover birth control without copay in move that could cause thousands of women to lose coverage

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 5:41 pm

Trump's also sabotaged efforts by Republican run Iowa from making improvements to Obamacare.

And likely done the same in similarly Red Oklahoma, pissing more than a few people who spent months working on it.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 5:52 pm

David Herdson‏ @DavidHerdson 6h6 hours ago
More
YouGov reconfirms a country split by Brexit stance and by age, not by class:

Leave: Con +36
Remain: Lab +33

18-24: Lab +44
25-49: Lab +22
50-64: Lab +1
65+: Con +44

ABC1: Lab +3
C2DE: Con +2

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 5:54 pm

No accident of timing of roll out extension and mass closure of jobcentres,of course.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 5:57 pm

Paul Mason‏Verified account
@paulmasonnews
5/ Catalonia will have an immediate fiscal surplus; so big it could "buy" entry to Eurozone and pay Spain a divorce bill if needed

Nobody reacts to events or anything, Paul, don't worry.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 6:06 pm

https://amp.theguardian.com/society/201 ... y-grenfell" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ministers 'refusing to pay for fire safety measures' after Grenfell
Councils accuse government of washing its hands of problem after earlier promising that money would be no object

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 6:09 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote: I am yet to see a tale that illustrates a benefit of leaving the EU. I've only seen WOTP, sovereignty (whatever the hell that is in this day and age) and taking back control. What are the actual tangible benefits that these Leave types foresee? That's all I seek to understand. (As I intimated earlier I doubt Banks and Martin see the increased staff salaries as their main motivation)

Free market! Like this

The free-market ideologues driving the Brexit process believe exporting is all about price. If you want to sell more, drop the price. If you cannot drop the price far enough, give up that activity and do something else where you can be competitive. If everyone does that, nations will gradually come to specialise in what they do best and the world will be a more efficient place.

As a theory it was developed almost 200 years ago by David Ricardo, and as theory it should work, provided everybody does it. In reality, however, nobody does.

The years of poverty, waste and dislocation which have to be endured in the uncertain hope of getting to the Promised Land mean it is not worth the risk. And you would be mad to try it on your own because you will simply be fleeced by everyone else.

However, the mad professors of free-market economics think it is a good idea because they assume the move from one activity to another will be seamless, instant and painless, and no one will cheat.

This means they refuse to recognise how long it will take to adjust to find new skills and markets, and they don’t have to worry about what people will do meanwhile. They simply ignore the costs, the bankruptcies, the unemployment, the absence of skills, and the reality that with our housing market most unemployed families simply cannot afford just to up sticks and move from one end of the country to another in search of work.

https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comm ... 51371.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I assume by mad professor he means Lilico.

Evan Davies (I think) was interviewing Hannan the other day, all Hannan could say was, we'll drop all our tariffs! Free trade!

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 6:12 pm

https://labourlist.org/2017/10/how-a-la ... cial-care/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

How a Labour council and a union came together to tackle low pay in social care

Post by **refitman** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 6:17 pm

NonOxCol wrote:Hello.

You thought QT was bad enough, here's who we paid for to appear on This Week afterwards:

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Lord knows I can't stand Kuenssberg, but full-throated protests really would be better directed at James Harding. It is an absolute scandal what he has done to the BBC's reputation. Just wait until Murdoch clocks it, and see the coverage of that...

Not just Coulson, but also Niall Ferguson.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 7:07 pm

OK. It's time.
Clanger weekend disco classics 1:

[youtube]lIxUKbV0UEM[/youtube]

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 7:14 pm

Opinium view 1:

http://opinium.co.uk/labour-approach-brexit-reassure/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Labour’s good performance in the general election was due to their success in winning over a large proportion of Remain voters regardless of what they thought the party would do in government on Brexit. This was made possible because Remainers came to see the Conservatives as the Brexit party and this is a view that has become deeply engrained.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 7:15 pm

Opinium view 2:

http://opinium.co.uk/labour-approach-br ... ions-open/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Labour’s strategic vagueness worked in 2017 and “sane Brexit” is their best chance of keeping their options open until we know how things are turning out.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 7:50 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:[quot
SpinningHugo wrote:
She was however dire on whether disadvantaged students have been deterred from going to University, politely just flat wrong, and Dimbleby was right to call her on it.

But, it is what people want to believe, so there we are.
Lies, damned lies and statistics eh?

I believe it is true that a higher percentage of Uni students are now from poorer backgrounds.

But remember that Universities who charge higher fees (i.e. pretty much all of them) now have to demonstrate they are widening participation.

It would be perfectly plausible to retain this second policy while reducing fees. This would certainly lead to even more poorer students attending Uni because it would be more affordable and Unis would still be making it easier for them to attend.
The poorer students are better helped by grants though. Even by the current government's standards, the policy of abolishing those is an outrage. It's even worse than the deplorable standard of poor-hitting managed by Scotland.

But I agree with you that fees are too high.

Yes understood.

I'm just trying to point out to open minded fellow posters that just because the % of poorer students has increased with increasing fees doesn't mean the fees are not a disincentive.[/quote]

None of which helps Rayner, whose statement was false.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 8:11 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
Yes understood.

I'm just trying to point out to open minded fellow posters that just because the % of poorer students has increased with increasing fees doesn't mean the fees are not a disincentive.

None of which helps Rayner, whose statement was false.

Then again, any venture zooms against the convenience!

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 8:21 pm

Can someone have a word with Tezza about her jacket.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 8:24 pm

From the Mark Steel piece linked to earlier:

I think I’ve worked out what’s happening here. It’s a mass psychological test – we’re all being monitored to see at what point we feel sorry for Theresa May.

Am sorry to say I am not there yet.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 8:27 pm

“She was resilient for battling through to the end,” they said, which would be a fair statement if she’d had to fight a leopard.

PF: Turn 't page