Friday 13th October 2017

Post by **refitman** » Fri 13 Oct, 2017 7:10 am

Morning all.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Fri 13 Oct, 2017 7:42 am

Good morfternoon.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Fri 13 Oct, 2017 7:46 am

As flagged up by RogerOThornhill last night -

EU withdrawal bill debate postponed as Brexit talks hit buffers

Lack of progress in Brussels negotations and Labour threat to derail legislation mean Commons discussion will not take place next week (Guardian)

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... negotiator

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Fri 13 Oct, 2017 8:13 am

PorFavor wrote:As flagged up by RogerOThornhill last night -

EU withdrawal bill debate postponed as Brexit talks hit buffers

Lack of progress in Brussels negotations and Labour threat to derail legislation mean Commons discussion will not take place next week (Guardian)
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... negotiator

Although it's not Labour "threatening" to derail the legislation that's the problem (it's their job to oppose after all) it's the Tory rebels who also think the bill isn't fit for purpose that is the government's real problem. Though it's easily solved by amending the bill. I said before we would get a clearer picture of May's thinking by how much she was willing to shift to get the bill through. Right now, she's not looking very serious about taking us out of the EU at all.

Post by **adam** » Fri 13 Oct, 2017 8:25 am

Off the Guardian home page and tucked away at the head of the US Edition section

Trump scraps Obamacare subsidies in surprise late-night announcement

Federal payments underpinning healthcare scheme unlawful, says White House, in move that takes a further swipe at Democrats’ signature reform

So a wide ranging law passed by congress, signed into law by the president and approved under challenge by the Supreme Court is declared unconstitutional by the next president. This is what happens when you put a CEO of a private business in charge - they don't get democracy and the limitations of power.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Fri 13 Oct, 2017 8:48 am

Willow904 wrote:
PorFavor wrote:As flagged up by RogerOThornhill last night -

EU withdrawal bill debate postponed as Brexit talks hit buffers

Lack of progress in Brussels negotations and Labour threat to derail legislation mean Commons discussion will not take place next week (Guardian)
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... negotiator
Although it's not Labour "threatening" to derail the legislation that's the problem (it's their job to oppose after all) it's the Tory rebels who also think the bill isn't fit for purpose that is the government's real problem. Though it's easily solved by amending the bill. I said before we would get a clearer picture of May's thinking by how much she was willing to shift to get the bill through. Right now, she's not looking very serious about taking us out of the EU at all.

Good morning

I cannot agree with that last sentence

She is clueless on how to face the task of taking us out so is floundering and avoiding on a grand scale. If she carries on we will leave on March 30 2019 with no deal no matter how serious she is being or what she actually wants

She should stand aside now to allow someone else try as she has no capability or power to address the problem

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 13 Oct, 2017 9:23 am

https://amp.theguardian.com/social-care ... -emergency" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Fri 13 Oct, 2017 9:25 am

Hello.

Also flagged up by Roger last night, here is the Secret Barrister's response to the appalling JHB.

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And here's a response closer to my own:

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **adam** » Fri 13 Oct, 2017 9:29 am

howsillyofme1 wrote:
the guardian wrote: Right now, she's not looking very serious about taking us out of the EU at all.
Good morning

I cannot agree with that last sentence

Yes, totally agree. It's as though the latest meme from the die-hard selfharm leave team is to force her to prove them wrong about this.

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Fri 13 Oct, 2017 9:29 am

Further evidence, meanwhile, that another "leading Brexiter" really is actually just plain thick:

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AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 13 Oct, 2017 10:27 am

NonOxCol wrote:Further evidence, meanwhile, that another "leading Brexiter" really is actually just plain thick:

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

He has several previous episodes to be taken into consideration here

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 13 Oct, 2017 10:32 am

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/payment- ... -routledge" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Payment Cards in Adult Social Care: Restrictions on Choice and Control must be Challenged

http://www.in-control.org.uk/news/in-co ... ntrol.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Direct Payments were hard fought for by disabled people. We must be ever vigilant against drifting away from real choice and control. Our investigation and report reveals what can happen when the balance shifts too far towards administrative convenience and over-restrictive management of direct payment"

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Fri 13 Oct, 2017 10:35 am

David Davis faces legal threat over secret reports on Brexit impact
Lawyers say they will issue judicial review proceedings if Brexit secretary fails to release 50 studies of effect on industry
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... SApp_Other" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 13 Oct, 2017 10:36 am

https://mainlymacro.blogspot.co.uk/2017 ... in-uk.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The impact of austerity in the UK

Wren-Lewis

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Fri 13 Oct, 2017 10:39 am

Ian Dunt: first half of tweet makes a fair point which I have some sympathy with (albeit nowhere near enough to ever contemplate changing my vote). Second half is imo completely indisputable for anyone paying attention since 2010, and particularly the last two years.

And guess who wades in, and with what...

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gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Fri 13 Oct, 2017 10:40 am

NonOxCol wrote:Hello.

Also flagged up by Roger last night, here is the Secret Barrister's response to the appalling JHB.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And here's a response closer to my own:

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Ouch.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 13 Oct, 2017 10:40 am

gilsey wrote:David Davis faces legal threat over secret reports on Brexit impact
Lawyers say they will issue judicial review proceedings if Brexit secretary fails to release 50 studies of effect on industry
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... SApp_Other" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm not always a fan of the sometimes seemingly scattergun "legally based" opposition to Brexit, but this one looks like it is worth doing.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Fri 13 Oct, 2017 10:42 am

NonOxCol wrote:Ian Dunt: first half of tweet makes a fair point which I have some sympathy with (albeit nowhere near enough to ever contemplate changing my vote). Second half is imo completely indisputable for anyone paying attention since 2010, and particularly the last two years.

And guess who wades in, and with what...

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

He can't spell mysogyny.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 13 Oct, 2017 10:43 am

A useful reminder there that DFH remains as unspeakably bad as ever.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 13 Oct, 2017 10:50 am

Good-morning, everyone

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Fri 13 Oct, 2017 11:01 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:A useful reminder there that DFH remains as unspeakably bad as ever.

We hadn't forgotten.

Post by **adam** » Fri 13 Oct, 2017 11:04 am

BTL in the daily politics today

The Brexiteer Mystery by Sir Arthur Conan T Barbarian

'But Holmes,' said Watson. 'How could this have happened?'
Holmes calmly surveyed the evidence. 'The Board of Trade met in an empty room. The door was locked from the inside. The Board's sole member, a Dr Liam Fox, was present. He was there to discuss Brexit.'
'Yes,' said Watson. 'And yet the most extraordinary thing is that there was still no agreement on what this Brexit business was actually all about. This Fox fellow was found the next day babbling all sorts of nonsense.'
'Indeed,' said Holmes. 'This Brexit affair is beyond a three-pipe problem. I'll need the cocaine,' he added. 'Lots of cocaine.'

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Fri 13 Oct, 2017 11:37 am

Nuclear industry acts on 'no deal' Brexit as MPs plot Euratom rebellion

https://www.juicebrighton.com/news/uk-b ... rebellion/

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Fri 13 Oct, 2017 12:02 pm

PorFavor wrote:
Nuclear industry acts on 'no deal' Brexit as MPs plot Euratom rebellion
https://www.juicebrighton.com/news/uk-b ... rebellion/

From what I've read, it really is impossible to remain in Eurotom if we leave the EU because so many elements are integrated with full EU membership.
So really this is something that should have been prepared for and been quite a way along before we triggered article 50.
Hopefully we will be able to remain in Eurotom during a transition period, but it's not really the sort if thing that can be left to chance.
Once again I come back to the fact that Scotland was expected to produce a detailed white paper on how independence could be practically realised before the referendum. We are currently in the middle of leaving the EU and still haven't had any such detailed paper on how it can happen.
It almost seems like Theresa May is baiting MPs to stop her taking us out by throwing unacceptable scenarios at them. I know others favour the incompetent interpretation, but unless she accommodates rebels to get the withdrawal bill through, I still think she's not seriously trying.

Post by **adam** » Fri 13 Oct, 2017 12:05 pm

Willow904 wrote:
PorFavor wrote:
Nuclear industry acts on 'no deal' Brexit as MPs plot Euratom rebellion
https://www.juicebrighton.com/news/uk-b ... rebellion/
From what I've read, it really is impossible to remain in Eurotom if we leave the EU because so many elements are integrated with full EU membership.
So really this is something that should have been prepared for and been quite a way along before we triggered article 50.
Hopefully we will be able to remain in Eurotom during a transition period, but it's not really the sort if thing that can be left to chance.
Once again I come back to the fact that Scotland was expected to produce a detailed white paper on how independence could be practically realised before the referendum. We are currently in the middle of leaving the EU and still haven't had any such detailed paper on how it can happen.
It almost seems like Theresa May is baiting MPs to stop her taking us out by throwing unacceptable scenarios at them. I know others favour the incompetent interpretation, but unless she accommodates rebels to get the withdrawal bill through, I still think she's not seriously trying.

The government's position paper on the implications for nuclear basically says

1. We don't accept the oversight of the ECJ so we will have to leave the treaty but
2. We will keep all of the benefits provided us by the treaty, just without the oversight and regulation - we'll come up with some other form of oversight instead, and
3. We don't accept that it applies to medical isotopes at all so we won't even mention them once in this paper.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Fri 13 Oct, 2017 12:08 pm

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/10/11/vo ... 42-10-11-/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

On who would make the best Prime Minister, both Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn score 33%, putting them behind "don't know" on 35%. This is the first time since she took charge of the country that Theresa May has slipped behind don't know.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 13 Oct, 2017 12:09 pm

adam wrote:
Willow904 wrote:---
The government's position paper on the implications for nuclear basically says

1. We don't accept the oversight of the ECJ so we will have to leave the treaty but
2. We will keep all of the benefits provided us by the treaty, just without the oversight and regulation - we'll come up with some other form of oversight instead, and
3. We don't accept that it applies to medical isotopes at all so we won't even mention them once in this paper.

(cJA edit)
Impossible demands

Post by **adam** » Fri 13 Oct, 2017 12:18 pm

citizenJA wrote:
adam wrote:
Willow904 wrote:---
The government's position paper on the implications for nuclear basically says

1. We don't accept the oversight of the ECJ so we will have to leave the treaty but
2. We will keep all of the benefits provided us by the treaty, just without the oversight and regulation - we'll come up with some other form of oversight instead, and
3. We don't accept that it applies to medical isotopes at all so we won't even mention them once in this paper.
(cJA edit)
Impossible demands

It's a good statement in microcosm of the government's wider position - we're going to keep what we like and jettison what we don't and that will be fine.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 13 Oct, 2017 12:19 pm

Willow904 wrote:https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/10/11/vo ... 42-10-11-/

On who would make the best Prime Minister, both Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn score 33%, putting them behind "don't know" on 35%. This is the first time since she took charge of the country that Theresa May has slipped behind don't know.

A reminder that the incumbent has a huge built-in advantage with this question - a "normal" result might be the actual PM leading by 10-15%.

You can draw your own conclusions about what this poll finding means from that.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Fri 13 Oct, 2017 12:19 pm

adam wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
From what I've read, it really is impossible to remain in Eurotom if we leave the EU because so many elements are integrated with full EU membership.
So really this is something that should have been prepared for and been quite a way along before we triggered article 50.
Hopefully we will be able to remain in Eurotom during a transition period, but it's not really the sort if thing that can be left to chance.
Once again I come back to the fact that Scotland was expected to produce a detailed white paper on how independence could be practically realised before the referendum. We are currently in the middle of leaving the EU and still haven't had any such detailed paper on how it can happen.
It almost seems like Theresa May is baiting MPs to stop her taking us out by throwing unacceptable scenarios at them. I know others favour the incompetent interpretation, but unless she accommodates rebels to get the withdrawal bill through, I still think she's not seriously trying.
The government's position paper on the implications for nuclear basically says

1. We don't accept the oversight of the ECJ so we will have to leave the treaty but
2. We will keep all of the benefits provided us by the treaty, just without the oversight and regulation - we'll come up with some other form of oversight instead, and
3. We don't accept that it applies to medical isotopes at all so we won't even mention them once in this paper.

If it was just about Tory government resistance to ECJ oversight I'd be less concerned because we could just change our minds about that, but I think there are genuine barriers to Eurotom membership outside the EU which would challenge even those who are keen to keep it.

I'm not even sure if we could stay in during a transition, though I hope we can, because of the international law consideration. An extension of the article 50 process may be the only way to avert this particular cliff edge. Would the 27 be willing to do that? We're very much at the mercy of the rest of Europe over this. Mind you, the rest of Europe seems more sensitive to the interests of British citizens than our Tory government, so maybe that's not as bad as it sounds!

Post by **adam** » Fri 13 Oct, 2017 12:21 pm

Willow904 wrote:If it was just about Tory government resistance to ECJ oversight I'd be less concerned because we could just change our minds about that, but I think there are genuine barriers to Eurotom membership outside the EU which would challenge even those who are keen to keep it.

I'm not even sure if we could stay in during a transition, though I hope we can, because of the international law consideration. An extension of the article 50 process may be the only way to avert this particular cliff edge. Would the 27 be willing to do that? We're very much at the mercy of the rest of Europe over this. Mind you, the rest of Europe seems more sensitive to the interests of British citizens than our Tory government, so maybe that's not as bad as it sounds!

We are eventually going to get to a point with something - and it could be nuclear, or air, or customs - where the EU continue to say 'what you are proposing is impossible, and this is what impossible means'.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Fri 13 Oct, 2017 12:25 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Willow904 wrote:https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/10/11/vo ... 42-10-11-/

On who would make the best Prime Minister, both Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn score 33%, putting them behind "don't know" on 35%. This is the first time since she took charge of the country that Theresa May has slipped behind don't know.
A reminder that the incumbent has a huge built-in advantage with this question - a "normal" result might be the actual PM leading by 10-15%.

You can draw your own conclusions about what this poll finding means from that.

What I conclude is that the Tories won't be going into another election with Theresa May at the helm. Will they hold out to 2019 or will their hyena instincts get the better of them, though? A leadership challenge during EU Brexit negotiations would be damaging for them. I'd be surprised if they went that far, but she's probably going to be under a lot of pressure to resign, I imagine.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 13 Oct, 2017 12:37 pm

Having had read the comments here and some news, it occurs to me a smart government not wanting rupture with the EU might stand still in a bog making pathetic noises without getting anywhere waiting for the inevitable time most of the population of 28 EU nations (the rest of the world's population too, for that matter) and leaders say, 'Whoa, this Brexit thing just isn't working out, forget the whole thing...'. The stuck-in-a-bog government gets led out of their tough spot with a scolding.

Current Tory government are stuck and pathetic but not smart, compassionate or competent.
I don't know what the hell they're up to, but it's unacceptable.

Willow904's point about international obligations required over Euratom, for example, is correct. It's not something any UK government can get out of without getting the entire country embargoed, locked down and given mandatory counselling sessions.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 13 Oct, 2017 12:39 pm

adam wrote:---
We are eventually going to get to a point with something - and it could be nuclear, or air, or customs - where the EU continue to say 'what you are proposing is impossible, and this is what impossible means'.

(cJA edit)
Yes, exactly.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 13 Oct, 2017 12:43 pm

https://www.disabilitynewsservice.com/w ... -deadline/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Welsh train access fears over 2020 deadline

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 13 Oct, 2017 12:43 pm

Mr citizen and I celebrate our wedding anniversary today!

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 13 Oct, 2017 12:44 pm

https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/9986" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 13 Oct, 2017 12:45 pm

Happy Anniversary.

[youtube]UjuoksjRCPs[/youtube]

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 13 Oct, 2017 12:45 pm

citizenJA wrote:Mr citizen and I celebrate our wedding anniversary today!

Have a great day

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 13 Oct, 2017 12:59 pm

Thank you, everyone!
I love you, people.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Fri 13 Oct, 2017 1:04 pm

https://amp.theguardian.com/society/201 ... ts-from-ae" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Jeremy Hunt considers barring walk-in patients from A&E
NHS England denies plans to pilot controversial idea, but critics say report reveals depths of crisis facing health service

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Fri 13 Oct, 2017 1:13 pm

John Rentoul @JohnRentoul
·
6m
Replying to @jamesrbuk and @DavidMills73
To be fair to Corbyn, as I always am, losers from dementia tax were mainly low-income home-owners.

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The "dementia tax" discussion on twitter and btl at the G is disheartening, to say the least, for the lack of understanding of what the proposed policy actually is and who it would affect. Good to see John Rentoul gets it and isn't prepared to misrepresent it.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 13 Oct, 2017 1:37 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ts-radio-4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Fri 13 Oct, 2017 1:54 pm

Absolutely essential thread on a subject closer to my heart than almost any other, one which I think is a significant contributory factor in almost everything I find depressing about this country.

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PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Fri 13 Oct, 2017 2:03 pm

Jeremy Hunt considers barring walk-in patients from A&E

NHS England denies plans to pilot controversial idea, but critics say report reveals depths of crisis facing health service (Guardian)

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... ts-from-ae

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Fri 13 Oct, 2017 2:05 pm

@Willow904

Whoops - sorry! Missed that.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 13 Oct, 2017 2:10 pm

What about if you crawl,hop,somersault in ,wheechairs users etc.?

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Fri 13 Oct, 2017 2:19 pm

Just what is it about these terminal bellends, almost all of whom also happen to be right-wing Brexiters?

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Fri 13 Oct, 2017 2:33 pm

Calling an ambulance will be the next thing to be barred unless you've first obtained a docket from your GP.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Fri 13 Oct, 2017 3:01 pm

PorFavor wrote:@Willow904

Whoops - sorry! Missed that.

Such pernicious kite flying deserves repeat exposure.