Wednesday 18th October 2017

[Sky'sGoneOut]

Much as I'd like to rant about the heartless Tory cowards this has actually disturbed me more...

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... ct-numbers" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Because it doesn't remotely surprise me. I've spent a lot of time wandering around rural Yorkshire and Cheshire over the last couple of years and the lack of insects is depressingly striking. When I was a kid you'd see a huge range of insects when you were walking around fields, butterflies, bees, hoverflies, all sorts. But now rural land is largely barren of life. I barely heard any grasshoppers this year and outside of gardens and woodlands hardly saw any butterflies at all. It's come to something when cities are providing an oasis for insects, where you're far more likely to see them, because the rural countryide has become wasteland bereft of food and doused in pesticide.

Anyway the Tories are fucking despicable cowards. Just thought I'd get that in at the end because it really did need saying.

[Tubby Isaacs]

A couple of Labour MPs have joined Redwood et al in writing to the PM calling for a walk out from talks.

I bet you can get them.

[SpinningHugo]

And re Article 50, we're in the shit, no doubt about it. I would have voted against triggering for various reasons we've discussed, but it hadn't dawned on me properly that it was unstoppable and though I reckoned rEU might be tempted to run it down, I didn't believe people in the government would think that was a good idea. So what do I, frankly?

I still don't get this idea of passing a law against no deal or whatever it is. My in house lawyer on another board reckoned it was rubbish, and I see David Allen Green said that too. I would think that's what Kier Starmer and Dominic Grieve think too. So is it a ploy to focus government minds? I can see that, though it shouldn't be talked up and give false hope.

We're so screwed.

[RogerOThornhill]

How on earth do we get such odious creatures like this as MPs?

Nadine Dorries‏Verified account
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For those being conned by media and Labour into thinking tonight's vote meant anything, it didn't Opposition stunt, not Gov legislation

[SpinningHugo]

I did however enjoy the suggestion above that Labour by voting for art 50 made Brexit less likely.

Double think if a delicious kind.

[Tubby Isaacs]

I did however enjoy the suggestion above that Labour by voting for art 50 made Brexit less likely.

Double think if a delicious kind.

Do you think they could have relied on public regard for the Fixed Term Parliament act to deny a khaki election? I'm not sure they could have done. It would have looked legalistic and sneaky. Neither of us would have chosen Corbyn as leader, but he was the leader then, and far less authoritative than now where he'd have a much better chance of carrying it off.

[Tubby Isaacs]

How on earth do we get such odious creatures like this as MPs?

Nadine Dorries‏Verified account
@NadineDorries
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For those being conned by media and Labour into thinking tonight's vote meant anything, it didn't Opposition stunt, not Gov legislation

I depressed myself by looking at her constituency result the other day. People like her and David TC Davies don't seem to drop many votes over what you'd expect a bright and relative humane sort like Chris Patten to get.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Since you don't ask, she won by nearly 21,000.

[SpinningHugo]

I did however enjoy the suggestion above that Labour by voting for art 50 made Brexit less likely.

Double think if a delicious kind.

Do you think they could have relied on public regard for the Fixed Term Parliament act to deny a khaki election? I'm not sure they could have done. It would have looked legalistic and sneaky. Neither of us would have chosen Corbyn as leader, but he was the leader then, and far less authoritative than now where he'd have a much better chance of carrying it off.

The only argument for voting for art 50 were stupid party politics game playing ones. (See above). Politics as sport.

MPs, especially of the so called left, should have done what they knew to be right.

I don't share your confidence in the leadership knowing how damaging this is for the poor.

Corbyn and McDonnell are long-term opponents of the EU. Economic chaos and disaster makes their being in power more likely.

It is utterly grim.

I'm very glad not to have given any support to this

[Sky'sGoneOut]

Anyway back to the Tories.

Could anyone tell me if this running away and hiding from non binding votes technique has been regularly used before?

[Tubby Isaacs]

Well, nor did I.

But being seen to block a General Election would have been incredibly difficult, and likely to have ended in an election where even May could have boosted her majority, because she'd have had another talking point to kill time with. Would have been like Cameron keep bringing up the SNP in 2015 when in trouble.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Anyway back to the Tories.

Could anyone tell me if this running away and hiding from non binding votes technique has been regularly used before?

I think it happened with a Bedroom Tax vote before 2015, and probably happened on other occasions. I don't recall it being reported that they had a policy to abstain on such votes though. That may be different.

[adam]

Well, nor did I.

But being seen to block a General Election would have been incredibly difficult, and likely to have ended in an election where even May could have boosted her majority, because she'd have had another talking point to kill time with. Would have been like Cameron keep bringing up the SNP in 2015 when in trouble.

I know it's pedantic, but I think they should have said to her "No, because your reasons are nonsense - the house has united behind you to respect the vote but the country is divided completely. However, we'd be happy to pass a No Confidence motion in the government - you just have to all abstain, we'll do all the work, and you can have your election."

[Tubby Isaacs]

It's not pedantic, because it's correct. But would have been tough.

[HindleA]

PM ducks Laura Pidcock's Q on Universal Credit. Won't say whether it's gross incompetence or calculated cruelty #PMQs


JPortes.

My assessment: initially, mostly former. Now almost entirely latter.

[Sky'sGoneOut]

I think it happened with a Bedroom Tax vote before 2015, and probably happened on other occasions. I don't recall it being reported that they had a policy to abstain on such votes though. That may be different.

Thanks Tubby, after some exhaustive googling I can't find any precedent for running away and hiding as a policy for avoiding defeats in parliament. Either my superficial research wasn't adequate or this abject cowardice is a strategy invention of May's Tories.