Wednesday 18th October 2017

Post by **refitman** » Wed 18 Oct, 2017 7:08 am

Morning all.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 18 Oct, 2017 7:08 am

Morning.

Channel 6 at 09.30 for DWP Select Committee ,Gauke and tweeter of cakes(in lieu of thin air)for those interested.

ODD on UC after PM's until about 7pm.

http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Guide" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 18 Oct, 2017 7:26 am

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-n ... itics-live" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Greens vow to protect Australian Broadcasting Company from 'blatant ideological attack' – politics live

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 18 Oct, 2017 7:51 am

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... are_btn_tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Wed 18 Oct, 2017 7:53 am

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-41639456" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

More than 40,000 people a year in England are getting fines of £100 - from an automated system that dentists say is hitting the most vulnerable.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 18 Oct, 2017 8:08 am

Politics is revolting at the moment. Obviously the UC debacle seems to be institutionalised cruelty.

But personally, I reserve special loathing for politicians responsible for triggering art 50 now claiming it can be reversed without EU co-operation

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You did it, either apoliogise or own it. You've made us all poorer, especially the poorest who you are supposed to represent.

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Wed 18 Oct, 2017 8:30 am

Hugo's Special Reserve Vitriol, 2017
A vintage year.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 18 Oct, 2017 8:33 am

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... um=twitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Wed 18 Oct, 2017 8:36 am

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-41655493" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A "prompt" and independent inquiry should be held into alleged abuse at an immigration removal centre in the UK, a human rights body has said.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 18 Oct, 2017 8:37 am

SpinningHugo wrote:Politics is revolting at the moment. Obviously the UC debacle seems to be institutionalised cruelty.

But personally, I reserve special loathing for politicians responsible for triggering art 50 now claiming it can be reversed without EU co-operation

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You did it, either apoliogise or own it. You've made us all poorer, especially the poorest who you are supposed to represent.

Good morning all

Do we have a spambot that posts the same post day after day after day?

I hope it us a spambot as if it is a real person I would suggest they need to go and find something more meaningful to do with their time

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 18 Oct, 2017 8:41 am

FWIW I'm a bolloxbot but I do vary a tad.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 18 Oct, 2017 8:47 am

Wow I managed to merge the two threads.

And we have the correct date

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 18 Oct, 2017 8:51 am

Labour Whips‏Verified account @labourwhips 3h3 hours ago
More
Today MPs will debate a @UKLabour motion from @Debbie_abrahams calling on the Government to pause the roll-out of Universal Credit #PauseUC

Probably worth following #PauseUC today

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 18 Oct, 2017 8:56 am

More seriously

I would just like to give a final reply to this...I am sure it will not stop the continuous posting though

The decision to leave the EU was taken at the referendum. I know it was theoretically non-binding etc but I really cannot see how there was any alternative to nod through A50 based on that result

The time to put the limits on was before the referendum but that opportunity was missed

Once more people voted Leave then A50 had to be invoked at some point

There are some questions around abstention (I think that is a fair one and has merit but there would probably have been political consequences) or whether the EU should have allowed some of the negotiations to start before A50

We know it will be economically damaging, we know it was non-binding and we know A50 set the clock ticking

The die was cast by those who called the referendum, and those that set the terms.....

To me the whole political class has some blame for this including those decisions that helped produce the financial crisis and allowed the burden to fall on the poor. Those who pandered to UKIP and those that supported austerity

Brexit is a consequence of many things and to make such crass comments as the one above shows a lack of understanding

If there is a need to cover anyone in shit over this though then the names of Cameron and Osborne seem to be well to the front of the pack....but it goes much deeper than this

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 18 Oct, 2017 8:56 am

Proving two threads are not necessarilly bettter than one.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 18 Oct, 2017 8:58 am

HindleA wrote:Proving two threads are not necessarilly bettter than one.

Boom boom

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 18 Oct, 2017 8:59 am

SpinningHugo wrote:Politics is revolting at the moment. Obviously the UC debacle seems to be institutionalised cruelty.

But personally, I reserve special loathing for politicians responsible for triggering art 50 now claiming it can be reversed without EU co-operation

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You did it, either apoliogise or own it. You've made us all poorer, especially the poorest who you are supposed to represent.

Try blaming those who:

1. Put the referendum in their manifesto despite the EU being low down on the list of issues for voters simply to appease their revolting backbenchers

2. Called the referendum

3. Didn't make it clear it was only advisory and non-binding on Parliament

4. Or didn't stipulate that anything less than, say, 60:40 in leave's favour would be null and void

Once the result was known it was only a matter of time that Article 50 would be invoked - blaming those who voted for what was a formality is idiotic.

OK, I;m off to the library...I'll leave you to jeer at Labour like the other trolls.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 18 Oct, 2017 9:00 am

Don't encourage me,that's the best it gets

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 18 Oct, 2017 9:03 am

Meanwhile the "Northern Powerhouse" is grinding to a halt.

As I reported recently, public transport in Leeds is clearly suffering from capacity issues, with people unable to board buses and trains that are already full.

And Andy Burnham is ranting about bi-mode trains in Manchester, which don't seem to be a great success so far....

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 18 Oct, 2017 9:46 am

Apparently also.on BBC Parliament (DWP SC)

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 18 Oct, 2017 9:48 am

UC line made free.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 18 Oct, 2017 9:49 am

Predictably enough, they have announced they will stop charging for UC helpline.

Watch them spin this round the studios as though they've actually done something substantial to solve the real problem.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 18 Oct, 2017 9:50 am

RogerOThornhill wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:Politics is revolting at the moment. Obviously the UC debacle seems to be institutionalised cruelty.

But personally, I reserve special loathing for politicians responsible for triggering art 50 now claiming it can be reversed without EU co-operation

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You did it, either apoliogise or own it. You've made us all poorer, especially the poorest who you are supposed to represent.
Try blaming those who:

1. Put the referendum in their manifesto despite the EU being low down on the list of issues for voters simply to appease their revolting backbenchers

2. Called the referendum

3. Didn't make it clear it was only advisory and non-binding on Parliament

4. Or didn't stipulate that anything less than, say, 60:40 in leave's favour would be null and void

Once the result was known it was only a matter of time that Article 50 would be invoked - blaming those who voted for what was a formality is idiotic.

OK, I;m off to the library...I'll leave you to jeer at Labour like the other trolls.

Lots of other people to blame.

But, most of those campaigned for Brexit.

We should spare special opprobrium for hypocrites who voted to trigger Art 50 without conditions, now saying it should be reversed.

People like Umunna and Starmer now claiming to oppose where we inevitably now are deserve contempt.

And as I've explained before "it would have happened anyway" doesn't exculpate in the slightest all those like the dreadful Umunna or Starmer who contributed their vote.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 18 Oct, 2017 9:51 am

I am afraid such things to me reveal the real extent of their shittery.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 18 Oct, 2017 9:52 am

HindleA wrote:I am afraid such things to me reveal the real extent of their shittery.

I assume this was in reply to me, not Hugo

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 18 Oct, 2017 9:54 am

SpinningHugo wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:Politics is revolting at the moment. Obviously the UC debacle seems to be institutionalised cruelty.

But personally, I reserve special loathing for politicians responsible for triggering art 50 now claiming it can be reversed without EU co-operation

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You did it, either apoliogise or own it. You've made us all poorer, especially the poorest who you are supposed to represent.
Try blaming those who:

1. Put the referendum in their manifesto despite the EU being low down on the list of issues for voters simply to appease their revolting backbenchers

2. Called the referendum

3. Didn't make it clear it was only advisory and non-binding on Parliament

4. Or didn't stipulate that anything less than, say, 60:40 in leave's favour would be null and void

Once the result was known it was only a matter of time that Article 50 would be invoked - blaming those who voted for what was a formality is idiotic.

OK, I;m off to the library...I'll leave you to jeer at Labour like the other trolls.
Lots of other people to blame.

But, most of those campaigned for Brexit.

We should spare special opprobrium for hypocrites who voted to trigger Art 50 without conditions, now saying it should be reversed.

People like Umunna and Starmer now claiming to oppose where we inevitably now are deserve contempt.

And as I've explained before "it would have happened anyway" doesn't exculpate in the slightest all those like the dreadful Umunna or Starmer who contributed their vote.

The people most deserving of contempt IMHO are those who purport to support the left but want to distract any and all conversations into a negative critique of the Labour Party.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 18 Oct, 2017 9:55 am

Anyway I'm going to focus on UC today

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 18 Oct, 2017 9:56 am

Sorry,yes.I should make clear but doing my match response to post game.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 18 Oct, 2017 10:00 am

A trivial matter of no consequence,systematic undermining of basic State reciprocity/duty to citizens is so passe.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 18 Oct, 2017 10:06 am

Bloody hell even PF's got her armour on.Her combined thrashing a sword about and gin drinking is poetry in motion.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 18 Oct, 2017 10:19 am

The fact that you may be already in work or not expected to mysteriously escapes them,before you get to patronising bollox.A job loss,sickness/disability/bereavement,accident etc doesn't give a toss about how hard you work or your budgeting skills.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 18 Oct, 2017 10:22 am

tinybgoat wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-41639456
More than 40,000 people a year in England are getting fines of £100 - from an automated system that dentists say is hitting the most vulnerable.

It's happened to me. Nightmare to try to sort out and I gave up.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 18 Oct, 2017 10:23 am

Good morfternoon.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Wed 18 Oct, 2017 10:24 am

HindleA wrote:UC line made free.

BBC announced the helpline would be free 'after claims that calls cost 55p/minute'.
Claims? The BBC should really take more care with their language.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 18 Oct, 2017 10:29 am

10:23

Q: Will advance payments become more of a feature of UC?

Gauke says advance payments have always been part of the system. But giving advance payments is a sensible approach. It is an “effective” way of helping people through the first period.

He says he will look at the evidence. (Politics Live, Guardian - my emphasis)

No rush . . .

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Wed 18 Oct, 2017 10:31 am

Meanwhile on BusinessLive

Breaking! Wage growth across the UK is still lagging behind inflation, even though the unemployment rate remains at its lowest level in 42-years.

Average earnings, excluding bonuses, rose by 2.1% per year in the three months to August. That’s down from 2.2% a month ago.

Including bonuses, wages rose by 2.2% - matching last month’s figures.

That means that real wages are still shrinking -- inflation was 2.6% in July (the mid-point of the quarter), and jumped to 3% in September.

The Office for National Statistics also reports that Britain’s unemployment rate remained at 4.3%, the lowest since 1975, thanks to another drop in the number of people out of work.

but

The employment minister, Damian Hinds, has welcomed the news that Britain’s unemployment rate remains at a 42-year low, with 32.10 million people in work (up 317,000 in the last year.).

Hinds says:

“Our economy is helping to create full time, permanent jobs which are giving people across the UK the chance of securing a reliable income.

so that's alright then.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 18 Oct, 2017 10:32 am

Is this specific to community dentistry or that is where the main problem is?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 18 Oct, 2017 10:37 am

It's an effective way of creating an inbuilt debt/increasing debt.Just pay the bloody thing in a timely fashion.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 18 Oct, 2017 10:37 am

gilsey wrote:Meanwhile on BusinessLive
Breaking! Wage growth across the UK is still lagging behind inflation, even though the unemployment rate remains at its lowest level in 42-years.

Average earnings, excluding bonuses, rose by 2.1% per year in the three months to August. That’s down from 2.2% a month ago.

Including bonuses, wages rose by 2.2% - matching last month’s figures.

That means that real wages are still shrinking -- inflation was 2.6% in July (the mid-point of the quarter), and jumped to 3% in September.

The Office for National Statistics also reports that Britain’s unemployment rate remained at 4.3%, the lowest since 1975, thanks to another drop in the number of people out of work.
but
The employment minister, Damian Hinds, has welcomed the news that Britain’s unemployment rate remains at a 42-year low, with 32.10 million people in work (up 317,000 in the last year.).

Hinds says:

“Our economy is helping to create full time, permanent jobs which are giving people across the UK the chance of securing a reliable income.
so that's alright then.

Brexit.

Also causing pubic finances to deteriorate, meaning less money available for everything else.

But it is a bit tricky, so best to talk about something else.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 18 Oct, 2017 10:53 am

[youtube]mgQg4ze1_KU[/youtube]

Post by **adam** » Wed 18 Oct, 2017 10:55 am

[youtube]0erxMEwGfIQ[/youtube]

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Wed 18 Oct, 2017 11:02 am

Gauke says he came into parliament after tax credits were introduced. UC is a much better system, being introduced in a much better way, he says.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 18 Oct, 2017 11:19 am

gilsey wrote:
Gauke says he came into parliament after tax credits were introduced. UC is a much better system, being introduced in a much better way, he says.

Conceptually it is better.

I'm not a big fan of the phrase "the devil is in the detail" but in this case it truly is.

My recollection is that Brown actually looked at something like UC, but he and his advisers concluded it could never work.

As I've said here before, the real problem is that at its core UC relies on up to date real time data on salary, which demonstrably is not being provided. If most people were in stable jobs with stable salaries, UC could probably work well, but the Tories have created a perfect storm by introducing this at a time when their policies are forcing people into self-employment, multiple employment, zero hours etc.

The system simply cannot keep up with such a fluid work environment.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 18 Oct, 2017 11:19 am

I benefited personally from tax credits, and can inform Gauke that the above is 24 carat bull***t.

Post by **adam** » Wed 18 Oct, 2017 11:25 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:I benefited personally from tax credits, and can inform Gauke that the above is 24 carat bull***t.

Me too - I can't speak for others and I know I'm quite good at filling in forms, but compared to other things I've applied Tax Credits were simple to apply for and simple to renew, and made a huge difference.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 18 Oct, 2017 11:36 am

When you only qualify for one benefit, it is far easier to just apply for that benefit on its own. As soon as you combine benefits in one application process, it becomes unnecessarily complex for people who only qualify for part. I'm basing this on applying for free prescriptions as a student and having to fill out questions for housing benefit because it was on the same form. Six benefits on one form when you only want to apply for one isn't really better. Especially as other benefits still have to be applied for separately. It may be nicer for the government to have these benefits grouped together, but I'm still not convinced by this assumption it works better for claimants. Indeed, when different departments dealt with different benefits that was two, three, four times the people on the end of a phone and all were more specialist in their benefit so more able to resolve issues.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 18 Oct, 2017 11:40 am

Never ceases to amaze me they get away with such bollox,often contradictory ie the DLA form.was so complicated all it took was a piece of paper with an x on it etc.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 18 Oct, 2017 11:48 am

FWIW it may have reduced ours by one in number of benefits/allowances,even then related/at the same time.CT isn't included as an obvious.I am wary of the consolidation/combining thing,often a way of removing,UC a perfect example.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 18 Oct, 2017 11:49 am

gilsey wrote:
Gauke says he came into parliament after tax credits were introduced. UC is a much better system, being introduced in a much better way, he says.

I mean, going back to this again, why do they insult our intelligence by coming out with this sort of crap? It only leads to further grief for them in the longer run.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 18 Oct, 2017 12:19 pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-41667556" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The EU Withdrawal Bill may not now be discussed in the House of Commons until after the Autumn recess, sources have told the BBC.

The law is designed to transfer EU law into UK law ahead of Brexit.

It is facing stiff resistance from some Tory rebels as well as from the opposition parties.

One official source said it was not yet back in the house of Commons because there simply "is not enough political agreement yet".