Thursday 19th October 2017

Post by **refitman** » Thu 19 Oct, 2017 7:10 am

Morning all.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 19 Oct, 2017 8:43 am

Morning all. Off to the hospital this morning to have another go at locating the damned stent...

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Nick Robinson‏Verified account
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No queues at Dover if we leave EU with no deal @OwenPaterson tells @BBCr4today but that’s not what port’s boss says

How do they get away with such obvious lies?

Post by **adam** » Thu 19 Oct, 2017 8:49 am

RogerOThornhill wrote:Morning all. Off to the hospital this morning to have another go at locating the damned stent...

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No queues at Dover if we leave EU with no deal @OwenPaterson tells @BBCr4today but that’s not what port’s boss says
How do they get away with such obvious lies?

Can't find it now, but I remember a comment that we would need an additional 40km² of lorry parking around Dover to have any chance of coping.

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Thu 19 Oct, 2017 9:22 am

adam wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:Morning all. Off to the hospital this morning to have another go at locating the damned stent...

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No queues at Dover if we leave EU with no deal @OwenPaterson tells @BBCr4today but that’s not what port’s boss says
How do they get away with such obvious lies?
Can't find it now, but I remember a comment that we would need an additional 40km² of lorry parking around Dover to have any chance of coping.

I'd bookmarked the following as interesting on WTO option, from the leave alliance.
http://leavehq.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=128" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Only just realised it's by Peter J North,
If you can filter out his other, rabid, views, what he says
on hard brexit makes sense, but sadly flawed otherwise.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 19 Oct, 2017 9:39 am

Morning

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/ ... rdern-live" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Jacinda Ardern is next prime minister of New Zealand, Winston Peters confirms – live

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Thu 19 Oct, 2017 9:54 am

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41651684" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Universal credit: My five-year-old searched bins for food"

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 19 Oct, 2017 10:02 am

HindleA wrote:Morning

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/ ... rdern-live" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Jacinda Ardern is next prime minister of New Zealand, Winston Peters confirms – live

Ah, a slight surprise. But not unwelcome for all that

Would never have been possible but for the Labour surge in late voting - proving as our recent election did that the campaign can actually make a difference.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 19 Oct, 2017 10:33 am

International gin and tonic day,apparently.But there appears to be a few of them,or similar.Of course,for some everyday is with or without the tonic.

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Thu 19 Oct, 2017 10:37 am

Buenos dias!

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Cono grueso.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 19 Oct, 2017 11:04 am

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PM's open letter

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/pms- ... -in-the-uk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 19 Oct, 2017 11:08 am

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistic ... s-aug-2017" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Out of Area Placements in Mental Health Services: Aug 2017

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 19 Oct, 2017 11:09 am

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistic ... -sept-2017" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Retail Sales in Great Britain: Sept 2017

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 19 Oct, 2017 11:11 am

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... ail-sector" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Policy paper
Rolling stock perspective 2017: DfT's aspirations for the rail sector

Corporate report
High speed rail expenditure report 2016 to 2017

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... 16-to-2017" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 19 Oct, 2017 11:30 am

Morning. Didn't know the excellent Trading Economic site (with official economic data from everywhere) had Twitter before.

https://twitter.com/tEconomics" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Thu 19 Oct, 2017 12:05 pm

From the man who brought you "Pulp can inspire the Tories", comes...

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AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 19 Oct, 2017 12:23 pm

NonOxCol wrote:Buenos dias!

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Cono grueso.

Even by present standards, an absolute clown.

Yes, "no deal" would be bad for the EU as well - but at the end of the day they could cope far better than us.

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Thu 19 Oct, 2017 12:28 pm

Such a wide open goal, I almost pity him...

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RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 19 Oct, 2017 12:51 pm

And...we.re back...and it's out. Next week can proceed as planned.

NonOxCol wrote:Such a wide open goal, I almost pity him...

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Let me see...might this involve listening to experts from organisations known by their acronym?

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 19 Oct, 2017 1:06 pm

NonOxCol wrote:Such a wide open goal, I almost pity him...

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That JRM fan at the top of the comments - denser than plutonium

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 19 Oct, 2017 1:16 pm

What's Corbyn doing lecturing Brussels about "neoliberalism" and austerity for? They're likely to be wondering if he's any idea what Greece and Italy were like- because they weren't "neoliberal" and would have been much better if they were. He's always welcome to pony up money for Greece himself.

He's supposed to be there as a PM in waiting, giving the impression that some of us in this country understand the need to get deals done properly.

I think it all sounds very ill-judged. Do you reckon Sturgeon would have done that?

Edit- I'll leave this hear for a laugh. But it's been pointed out he's in Brussels but not speaking to "Brussels".

He's fine.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 19 Oct, 2017 1:19 pm

Great stuff from Corbyn

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... exit-talks" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[...] The Labour leader, while scornful of recent comments by Phillip Hammond, in which the chancellor described the EU as “the enemy”, offered a surprisingly even-handed analysis of the impasse in the Brexit talks. Speaking at a conference on the future of the socialism, Corbyn said both sides needed to take steps to progress the negotiations, which are stuck on the details of the estimated €60bn (£54bn) divorce bill.

So I urge all leaders on all sides: the UK and the EU. The UK and the European union must take steps together. There is no need for insults or divisive posturing. It is our responsibility to build a relationship that will continue to thrive for generations to come and we in the labour party are determined to achieve that.

[...]In the referendum the Labour party campaigned for remain and reform. [...] That call for reform of EU institutions and rules in the interests of the many is echoed by many friends and allies across Europe.

[...] Many establishment commentators have been determined to write the left off. To write socialism out of the agenda. In Britain we were told we hd no chance. No chance we were told just before the recent general election. And although we did not quite win the election I think you would agree we comprehensively proved our critics wrong. [...] Our broken system has provided fertile ground for nationalistic and xenophobic politics […] Unless we offer a clear and radical alternative and credible solutions to the problems people face.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Thu 19 Oct, 2017 1:23 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:What's Corbyn doing lecturing Brussels about "neoliberalism" and austerity for? They're likely to be wondering if he's any idea what Greece and Italy were like- because they weren't "neoliberal" and would have been much better if they were. He's always welcome to pony up money for Greece himself.

He's supposed to be there as a PM in waiting, giving the impression that some of us in this country understand the need to get deals done properly.

I think it all sounds very ill-judged. Do you reckon Sturgeon would have done that?

Edit- I'll leave this hear for a laugh. But it's been pointed out he's in Brussels but not speaking to "Brussels".

He's fine.

Tubby,

I was just about to point out he was speaking to socialist policians from Europe and was correct in doing so as there are some questions to be asked

You have though spotted that so thanks for coming back to your post

Just to add his words on Brexit were very much in contrast to those of the Tories

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 19 Oct, 2017 1:24 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:What's Corbyn doing lecturing Brussels about "neoliberalism" and austerity for? They're likely to be wondering if he's any idea what Greece and Italy were like- because they weren't "neoliberal" and would have been much better if they were. He's always welcome to pony up money for Greece himself.

He's supposed to be there as a PM in waiting, giving the impression that some of us in this country understand the need to get deals done properly.

I think it all sounds very ill-judged. Do you reckon Sturgeon would have done that?

Edit- I'll leave this hear for a laugh. But it's been pointed out he's in Brussels but not speaking to "Brussels".

He's fine.

Somewhat different analyses from the two of us

All along, I've felt that "remain and reform" is the way out of this mess. In other words, if the EU shifts on a couple of issues (to all states' benefit), then the UK can rejoin without too much loss of face. This was what Cameron attempted to do and where he failed so spectacularly!

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 19 Oct, 2017 1:43 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ward-leigh" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Veteran Tory MP Edward Leigh attacks leader of Commons for saying government is not bound by Wednesday’s vote

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Thu 19 Oct, 2017 1:45 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
NonOxCol wrote:Such a wide open goal, I almost pity him...

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That JRM fan at the top of the comments - denser than plutonium

"Right on" - has anyone actually said that out loud since Ben Elton on Saturday Live?

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 19 Oct, 2017 2:13 pm

In the referendum the Labour party campaigned for remain and reform. [...] That call for reform of EU institutions and rules in the interests of the many is echoed by many friends and allies across Europe.

See, I've never really understood what these bad EU things are. Something about trains? Posted Workers Directive, OK, that's one. CAP? Not all that different from other places with farming they want to protect.

The Eurozone, sure. But we're not in there, and aren't going in. Nor even are countries who signed treaties to join it.

TTIP was virtually a dead duck when he made a lot of it in the campaign, and anyway the logic of that was "something bad will happen, but it'll be OK if I am PM". Not sure that was a great message in June 2016.

In the EU, not in the Eurozone- seems to work for Sweden and Denmark. So we need rather less of this negative stuff about the EU.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 19 Oct, 2017 2:45 pm

Next Wednesday ODD after PMQ's are on Social Care and then Supported Housing

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 19 Oct, 2017 3:08 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
In the referendum the Labour party campaigned for remain and reform. [...] That call for reform of EU institutions and rules in the interests of the many is echoed by many friends and allies across Europe.
See, I've never really understood what these bad EU things are. Something about trains? Posted Workers Directive, OK, that's one. CAP? Not all that different from other places with farming they want to protect.

The Eurozone, sure. But we're not in there, and aren't going in. Nor even are countries who signed treaties to join it.

TTIP was virtually a dead duck when he made a lot of it in the campaign, and anyway the logic of that was "something bad will happen, but it'll be OK if I am PM". Not sure that was a great message in June 2016.

In the EU, not in the Eurozone- seems to work for Sweden and Denmark. So we need rather less of this negative stuff about the EU.

I agree that it would be good to say more about the good stuff the EU does and I have fessed up to sometimes not doing so in casual conversations when people on the bus or down the pub have dissed the EU over the years. I think many in the country have been guilty of this, not least leading politicians of all colours, which is part of the problem.

The main problem for me is that the EU does not have the means to redistribute wealth to compensate for the impacts of the (highly desirable) Single Market. The danger is then that freedom of movement becomes not a (highly desirable) human right within the Union, but a necessity to feed the needs of capitalism. There could be some good work done in this area that would make the whole EU better and more prosperous, without encouraging wholesale relocation of people from temporarily poorer regions to capitalist hotspots, when they would rather stay, work, live and support their communities nearer to home.

For clarity, this is not the EU's fault. Member states, not least our own, have not wanted to countenance this level of cooperation.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 19 Oct, 2017 3:14 pm

It is also undeniable that what happened in Greece upset many people, by no means all of them Corbynistas.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 19 Oct, 2017 3:21 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:It is also undeniable that what happened in Greece upset many people, by no means all of them Corbynistas.

No doubt, but if you mean the Eurozone, say the Eurozone. Now of all times. The EU (as opposed to the Eurozone) is, among mature Western democracies, Sweden, Denmark and the UK.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 19 Oct, 2017 3:27 pm

Good-afternoon, everyone

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 19 Oct, 2017 3:29 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
In the referendum the Labour party campaigned for remain and reform. [...] That call for reform of EU institutions and rules in the interests of the many is echoed by many friends and allies across Europe.
See, I've never really understood what these bad EU things are. Something about trains? Posted Workers Directive, OK, that's one. CAP? Not all that different from other places with farming they want to protect.

The Eurozone, sure. But we're not in there, and aren't going in. Nor even are countries who signed treaties to join it.

TTIP was virtually a dead duck when he made a lot of it in the campaign, and anyway the logic of that was "something bad will happen, but it'll be OK if I am PM". Not sure that was a great message in June 2016.

In the EU, not in the Eurozone- seems to work for Sweden and Denmark. So we need rather less of this negative stuff about the EU.
I agree that it would be good to say more about the good stuff the EU does and I have fessed up to sometimes not doing so in casual conversations when people on the bus or down the pub have dissed the EU over the years. I think many in the country have been guilty of this, not least leading politicians of all colours, which is part of the problem.

The main problem for me is that the EU does not have the means to redistribute wealth to compensate for the impacts of the (highly desirable) Single Market. The danger is then that freedom of movement becomes not a (highly desirable) human right within the Union, but a necessity to feed the needs of capitalism. There could be some good work done in this area that would make the whole EU better and more prosperous, without encouraging wholesale relocation of people from temporarily poorer regions to capitalist hotspots, when they would rather stay, work, live and support their communities nearer to home.

For clarity, this is not the EU's fault. Member states, not least our own, have not wanted to countenance this level of cooperation.

That's a good point at the end there- we don't give it powers then moan about it being useless.

But I'd take issue with the Single Market is a problem for struggling areas in that way. Not being able to move for work would be much, much worse. The overall figures from the non-Eurozone countries have been decent enough. But the Eurozone, far less so. Plenty to be said to improve that, and I wish that would be the focus.

As you say bigger fiscal transfers are needed.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Thu 19 Oct, 2017 3:31 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:It is also undeniable that what happened in Greece upset many people, by no means all of them Corbynistas.
No doubt, but if you mean the Eurozone, say the Eurozone. Now of all times. The EU (as opposed to the Eurozone) is, among mature Western democracies, Sweden, Denmark and the UK.

Tubby

I understand the distinction but what happened there was appalling and affects all the EU, at least morally.

The reason was to protect bankers in Germany and France from the consequences of their actions without consideration for the millions of people affected.....after being complicit in allowing the situation to develop

We then had openly fascist parties taking advantage of this

I think the EU should always be looking to reform and build on the many positive things it stands for

By arguing against the remain and reform then are you saying no reform is needed at all?

I would rather the UK was promoting a socialist reform to make the EU work better for EU citizens rather thsn us sniping on the sidelines

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 19 Oct, 2017 3:34 pm

I think there's too much broadbrush with this neoliberalism stuff. Italy and Greece, who are the two big problems, aren't "neoliberal", but have been clientilist, to disastrous effect. The EU is basically doing good when it tries to open up markets properly.

You don't have to be devil take the hindmost about it at all. The EU generally doesn't care provided you do what you've agreed, and can pay your way. Denmark is considered the best country in the world in which to do business, but it'll take a lot of your income back from doing that business.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Thu 19 Oct, 2017 3:36 pm

So Tubby you do want some reform then....possibly a bit less radical than me and definitely less than Corbyn would probably argue for....would be definitely interesting to see him at the EU summits as a proper old fashioned socialist against that odd right winger youngster from Austria.

I like the point about the EU poers...one thing Varafoukis went on about and also Tony Benn at times is that the EU Commission has very little power in reality but some of the powers it has can be very infuriating when trying to get things done

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Thu 19 Oct, 2017 3:44 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:I think there's too much broadbrush with this neoliberalism stuff. Italy and Greece, who are the two big problems, aren't "neoliberal", but have been clientilist, to disastrous effect. The EU is basically doing good when it tries to open up markets properly.

You don't have to be devil take the hindmost about it at all. The EU generally doesn't care provided you do what you've agreed, and can pay your way. Denmark is considered the best country in the world in which to do business, but it'll take a lot of your income back from doing that business.

But the solutions that have been imposed where driven by those who believe in neoliberalism...and they didnt work. In essence state financed welfare for the banks and austerity and a firesale of assets

The problems werent caused by neoliberalism but the solutions came from there

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 19 Oct, 2017 3:45 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:It is also undeniable that what happened in Greece upset many people, by no means all of them Corbynistas.
No doubt, but if you mean the Eurozone, say the Eurozone. Now of all times. The EU (as opposed to the Eurozone) is, among mature Western democracies, Sweden, Denmark and the UK.
Tubby

I understand the distinction but what happened there was appalling and affects all the EU, at least morally.

The reason was to protect bankers in Germany and France from the consequences of their actions without consideration for the millions of people affected.....after being complicit in allowing the situation to develop

We then had openly fascist parties taking advantage of this

I think the EU should always be looking to reform and build on the many positive things it stands for

By arguing against the remain and reform then are you saying no reform is needed at all?

I would rather the UK was promoting a socialist reform to make the EU work better for EU citizens rather thsn us sniping on the sidelines

I think we're inevitably seen as sniping from the sidelines with Greece, because we're not really on the hook for it. Cameron made that much worse because he wanted to contrast the UK with Greece/Labour. Utter goon of a PM.

I don't see huge problems with the EU really- I mentioned a couple of things, like Posted Workers. From the UK point of view, we could have pushed much more the single digital market and greater single markets in other types of services. I worry though that there's a Corbyn prejudice on this sort of stuff.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Thu 19 Oct, 2017 3:52 pm

That is fair enough Tubby....we can always find something to disagree with on the details but the main thrust is in the same direction

I find Corbyn an enigma sometimes....he has actually become more pragmatic than I though he would be. Stridently against no deal, looking to cooperate and allowing Starmer to make some soothing noises....

Is it because he focuses on outcomes rather than the detail of how? EU means better job security and economy so has moved towards that. Has accepted that immigration is not the cause of wage poverty so his internationalist pro- immigration approach makes him move towards an acceptance of FoM?

I think we have seen him be a more complex politician than the old fashioned trot over the last year

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 19 Oct, 2017 3:53 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:I think there's too much broadbrush with this neoliberalism stuff. Italy and Greece, who are the two big problems, aren't "neoliberal", but have been clientilist, to disastrous effect. The EU is basically doing good when it tries to open up markets properly.

You don't have to be devil take the hindmost about it at all. The EU generally doesn't care provided you do what you've agreed, and can pay your way. Denmark is considered the best country in the world in which to do business, but it'll take a lot of your income back from doing that business.
But the solutions that have been imposed where driven by those who believe in neoliberalism...and they didnt work. In essence state financed welfare for the banks and austerity and a firesale of assets

The problems werent caused by neoliberalism but the solutions came from there

I think that if anything, what happened was worse than that. They likely didn't even believe the stuff they were saying about Greece, but couldn't say "you're going to shrink, but do this stuff anyway". Greece was such a mess, you couldn't do just kick out bad politicians and pass some banking laws and maybe jail the worse offenders. Even so, maybe it could have got a much gentler bailout (as two percent of the Eurozone), but the worry was that Italy would just go bankrupt and bring the whole currency down. Iceland did recover much better, but it had proper institutions, its own currency, and Scandinavian allies who were prepared to borrow for it. I think the Eurozone was just a dreadful situation, and I've no problem with people really criticizing it.

The banks lost plenty of money lending to Greece, but not as much as they might have done, for sure. Could the banking system have absorbed those losses? I don't know, but in 2008 all sorts of politicians who didn't fancy state intervention in banks felt they had to do it.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 19 Oct, 2017 3:54 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:That is fair enough Tubby....we can always find something to disagree with on the details but the main thrust is in the same direction

I find Corbyn an enigma sometimes....he has actually become more pragmatic than I though he would be. Stridently against no deal, looking to cooperate and allowing Starmer to make some soothing noises....

Is it because he focuses on outcomes rather than the detail of how? EU means better job security and economy so has moved towards that. Has accepted that immigration is not the cause of wage poverty so his internationalist pro- immigration approach makes him move towards an acceptance of FoM?

I think we have seen him be a more complex politician than the old fashioned trot over the last year

Well, he's the best hope. I think he's much better than last year. And we certainly could have had a leader leading the charge with ending FoM. That's a positive.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 19 Oct, 2017 4:30 pm

http://www.24housing.co.uk/opinion/a-fr ... ot-enough/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 19 Oct, 2017 4:44 pm

Jon Trickett‏Verified account
@jon_trickett
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Labour’s secured a vote to get extra funding for social care next week. Tories have been ignoring the care crisis for too long.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 19 Oct, 2017 4:44 pm

Did HindleA already mention that? Sorry if so....

[checked and yes he did but this adds a bit more context]

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 19 Oct, 2017 5:33 pm

Sam Kriss and now Rupert Myers. Wow.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 19 Oct, 2017 5:34 pm

https://www.tes.com/news/school-news/br ... ch-reveals" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

£100m funding gap in SEND provision, research reveals

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 19 Oct, 2017 5:40 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... -suspended" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Head of grammar school that excluded 'underachieving' students suspended

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 19 Oct, 2017 6:08 pm

https://www.disabilitynewsservice.com/s ... iberation/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sir Bert Massie: Tributes to ‘a life committed to disabled people’s liberation’

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 19 Oct, 2017 7:06 pm

And re my above post, it seems that according to some Kriss' transgressions were the fault of........his female journalist friends.

Who knew??

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 19 Oct, 2017 7:10 pm

https://mainlymacro.blogspot.co.uk/2017 ... pared.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Forecast errors compared

Wren-Lewis

"After the financial crisis too many people who should have know better said that failing to predict the financial crisis meant that all existing mainstream macroeconomics was flawed. It was rubbish, but such attitudes did not help when some of us were arguing against austerity on the basis of standard macroeconomic ideas and evidence"

Bonnylad · Post by **Bonnylad** » Thu 19 Oct, 2017 7:32 pm

Very interesting thread regarding a leaked treasury document-scroll down a little:) https://twitter.com/JolyonMaugham" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;