Saturday 21st & Sunday 22nd October 2017

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 1:48 am

I was going to say cock sparrow but that's more a cockney thing.My dad says it sometimes and he is from Paisley,maybe generational rather than locational or became generally used from there

Sky'sGoneOut · Post by **Sky'sGoneOut** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 1:58 am

My old man said follow the van,
And don't dilly dally on the way.
Off went the van with me home packed in it,
I followed on with me old cock linnet.

I saw a Linnet earlier this year, they've been an endangered species since it was the Victorian fashion to have them in cages.

It doesn't take much to drive a species to the edge of extiction and have very few people give a shit.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 9:03 am

Taking one aspect of why Starmer is a bullshit merchant

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... are_btn_tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The EU Charter guarantees EU freedom of movement. Is Starmer proposing we keep freedom of movement then?

Of course not, he is just trying to signal that Labour is slightly more Remain-y than the Tories.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 9:20 am

SpinningHugo wrote:Taking one aspect of why Starmer is a bullshit merchant

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... are_btn_tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The EU Charter guarantees EU freedom of movement. Is Starmer proposing we keep freedom of movement then?

Of course not, he is just trying to signal that Labour is slightly more Remain-y than the Tories.

Do you think Starmer isn't perfectly aware of what he can/cannot do with respect to getting a deal with the EU? He has been speaking to them, have you?

The 'what' of Freedom of Movement is enshrined in the treaties but the 'How' most definitely isn't and each country has its own way of complying - Starmer himself has said that the UK has been poor at explaining all this in the past

The big stumbling block, as he alluded to as well, is that any 'fair immigration policy' as they call it probably requires you to know who is in the country - at the moment the UK doesn't know this as there is no registration of EU citizens - and there cannot be unless it is applied to UK citizens as well. We are then back to the ID cards debate

I think he is aware of this completely and he is probably trying to work out how to make it work for both the Europeans and the UK - the lLabour leadership is not anti-immigration like the Tories are and if a solution can be found that complies with FoM and is sellable politically in the UK then that may work

If you are looking for someone who is a 'bullshit merchant' I would humbly suggest you start looking a bit closer to home

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 9:29 am

Labour is choosing exactly the wrong thing to fight over.

The EU Withdrawal Bill doesn't lead to withdrawal. That has already out of the UK's hands.

It is a "post-Brexit clean up" Bill. Something like it is needed. Just voting it down is worse than useless.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 9:41 am

SpinningHugo wrote:Labour is choosing exactly the wrong thing to fight over.

The EU Withdrawal Bill doesn't lead to withdrawal. That has already out of the UK's hands.

It is a "post-Brexit clean up" Bill. Something like it is needed. Just voting it down is worse than useless.

If it weren't for the fact that the changing fuss twists my copied bookshop (and not least that the lawyer amuses the yard) it seems clear to all of us - or in popular parlance it is the case because it is so deemed - that the deed decides into an opposite.

Or not?

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 9:43 am

SpinningHugo wrote:Labour is choosing exactly the wrong thing to fight over.

The EU Withdrawal Bill doesn't lead to withdrawal. That has already out of the UK's hands.

It is a "post-Brexit clean up" Bill. Something like it is needed. Just voting it down is worse than useless.

Here we go again...opinion being quoted as fact....there are two aspects to this political and legal

There is also the precedent of the EW bill being used by the Government with very little scrutiny - I can say it is probably, if not a certainty, that the Labour Party has access to better legal minds than you and also have more political nouse than you could ever dream of possessing.

Legal

Can you point me to the legal precedent that says that the UK cannot revoke A50 - there is nothing in the Article itself that talks about revocation - this could end up in the ECJ if it ever got that far

Political

For the EU I would venture that the best political option for them is the UK revoking notice to leave and actually staying in. It shows other countries how difficult it is to leave in a practical sense and it will also stop all the focus on this and future effects on the EU. I would think they would grab this opportunity with both hands if it was offered to them. If they decided not to, which I think would be extremely likely, then it would go to the courts

The big issue though for all those wanting some sort of deal is the fact we have a bloody Tory Government who are not listening to anyone and who do not seem to have the ability to move - unless we get rid of them Labour are not the focus - it is why I think all the Opposition Parties are starting to coalesce around that and have been less critical of Labour since the election - the question is how many Tories will break ranks and currently I am not holding my breathe on that

So, as normal, you are unable to see the potential bigger picture

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 9:57 am

howsillyofme1 wrote:
Do you think Starmer isn't perfectly aware of what he can/cannot do with respect to getting a deal with the EU? He has been speaking to them, have you?

This makes no sense.

Labour's policies are

1. Freedom of movement is ending (see the manifesto)

2. We need to enshrine the EU Charter into UK law to 'preserve our rights'.

These are just inconsistent as the EU Charter guarantees freedom of movement (and no, not a bespoke version of it. The EU law form).

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 9:57 am

https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/homebuyingandselling" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Open consultation
Improving the home buying and selling process: call for evidence

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 9:59 am

howsillyofme1 wrote:
Can you point me to the legal precedent that says that the UK cannot revoke A50 - there is nothing in the Article itself that talks about revocation - this could end up in the ECJ if it ever got that far

The law on art 50 is found in its words.

It might be that the ECJ would allow unilateral revocation. My judgement is that it won't. But whether it will or won't is not a matter that can be determined by the UK Parliament.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 10:00 am

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... -inflation" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Brexit makes a nonsense of Nigel Lawson’s struggle against inflation
William Keegan

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 10:02 am

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... -consumers" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Can consumers keep the British economy going?
Sean Farrell

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 10:13 am

SpinningHugo wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
Do you think Starmer isn't perfectly aware of what he can/cannot do with respect to getting a deal with the EU? He has been speaking to them, have you?

This makes no sense.

Labour's policies are

1. Freedom of movement is ending (see the manifesto)

2. We need to enshrine the EU Charter into UK law to 'preserve our rights'.

These are just inconsistent as the EU Charter guarantees freedom of movement (and no, not a bespoke version of it. The EU law form).

Firstly, the manifesto can, and will, change - Starmer said on Peston that the elasticity within Freedom of Movement has not been exploited fully

The Labour Party also made it pretty clear that they see the SM as being an EU mechanism and linked to membership so if you are a member you cannot be part of the SM - the future relationship of the Single Market and a non-EU member is different

What you can see in that is a way to change position - it is called politics and is based on the fact that you cannot predict future public opinion. Labour are managing this pretty well at the moment looking at the polls - better than the parties who are being more strident and uncompromising on their position

As I see it Labour are looking for a way to stay in, or as close as they can, without being accused of ignoring the referendum

You write as though your views are some great truth that us poor individuals are unaware of and when we read your views we will bow down to your superior intelligence - the reality could not be further from the truth

As to the ECJ, well your predictions on virtually every subject, legal and political (how did the Supreme Court one go?) have proved wrong so you will accept my apologies at totally ignoring it

I do not think it will get anywhere near the ECJ - is we said that we want to stay then we will be allowed to for political reasons.

Why would the EU say no to us wanting to stay?

The decision may not be completely in the hands of the UK pParliament but of the 4 hurdles

UK Parliament Revoking A50 -> Government sending revocation -> EU accepting it -> ECJ ruling on it

I would venture the most difficult ones are the first two - with the second only being possible with a Labour PM

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 10:17 am

These are just inconsistent as the EU Charter guarantees freedom of movement (and no, not a bespoke version of it. The EU law form)

I am not talking of a bespoke version I talk of the elasticity that exists within it

Are you saying that every country have the same way of managing immigration?

I will give you a question:

Does the UK currently has the same rules on EU citizen residents as Switzerland, for example? Both have to comply with FoM by the way

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 10:20 am

howsillyofme1 wrote: What you can see in that is a way to change position - it is called politics and is based on the fact that you cannot predict future public opinion.

Which is fine. If Starmer (or any other Labour spokesman) now said "We now favour retaining freedom of movement as enshrined in EU law" I'd be delighted.

I wonder how closely you follow UK politics from your Swiss redoubt if you think that remotely possible?

Instead Starmer, who knows he is bullshitting, says inconsistent cake and eat it things. (i) End freedom of movement and (ii) keep the Charter are not compatible.

As for the rest, I don't think the other 27 EU member states will all consent to the UK withdrawing notification and remaining on the same (very favourable) terms we are now, no.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 10:29 am

SpinningHugo wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote: What you can see in that is a way to change position - it is called politics and is based on the fact that you cannot predict future public opinion.

Which is fine. If Starmer (or any other Labour spokesman) now said "We now favour retaining freedom of movement as enshrined in EU law" I'd be delighted.

I wonder how closely you follow UK politics from your Swiss redoubt if you think that remotely possible?

Instead Starmer, who knows he is bullshitting, says inconsistent cake and eat it things. (i) End freedom of movement and (ii) keep the Charter are not compatible.

As for the rest, I don't think the other 27 EU member states will all consent to the UK withdrawing notification and remaining on the same (very favourable) terms we are now, no.

I seem to have a better feeling for UK politics than you do as my predictions seem to be closer to the reality than yours ever are!

He is not going to say it at the moment but he may do in the future - it is all about timing

In order for Labour to be in charge of the negotiations then they need to bring down the Tory Government and form their own (after a GE?) .....to do that they need to put maximum pressure on the Government and keep the momentum into an election

Starmer saying that now will put that at risk and leave the Tories in charge

As for the EU27 not wanting us to stay on favourable terms - there are three aspects to that rebate, Schengen and the Euro.....I think the only one we would be pushed on is the rebate and there may be a haircut on that. Not insurmountable if public opinion has hanged to be strongly Remain

The likelihood of us remaining though is still pretty low as we have a Tory Government and public opinion is still very divided. Best bet is for a good deal and for that we definitely need this lot out of Government

So in the end it is not about the final deal at the moment, it is about getting the Tories out as soon as possible - all focus is on that for Labour as just making pronouncements on the EU is all very nice but irrelevant if it does not help get the Tories out

If there is a GE as well Labour will need to set out their policy clearly and get a mandate on that - what the said in June 2017 will be history

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 10:38 am

HindleA wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... -consumers

Can consumers keep the British economy going?
Sean Farrell

In a word, no.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 10:48 am

http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/uk_59eb6 ... mg00000004" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Universal Credit Six-Week Wait Could Soon Be Reduced, Tory MP Suggests

And the rest.....

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 11:01 am

Sevultura
@sevultura
Replying to @Hephaestus7 and @RITB_
So much for simplified system. Income based ESA=UC; contributions based ESA=separate claim + UC claim. Not made clear anywhere by anyone

First time I'd come across this particular issue, but it explains why people who need to make a claim for sickness benefit are sometimes being ping-ponged between departments. Until they fill out a claim for something it may not be clear which ESA they qualify for and therefore which something they need to apply for. A bit chicken and egg.

A proper impact study should have revealed this before it even came up in the trials, which will have definitely alerted ministers to the problem. Of course, if ministers had actually considered these problems, UC would never have happened as it would have become clear that a "simple" one payment system was little more than a chimera, a fevered fantasy of control freaks like IDS.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 11:03 am

Sorry to keep banging on about Brexit....I start off reacting to someone else and then start thinking about it more deeply

Two points

To get to where I want to us to go we realistically need to have a Labour-led Government. With that in mind it is easier to understand why Labour senior politicians focus on the other catastrophes of Tory Government than just Brexit - which is very important but probably not going to be the subject that allows maximum pressure to be brung

We keep talking about how to get a mandate for a certain policy without another divisive yes/no referendum. Another GE could do that as Labour would have to set out a clearer vision of their future relationship as they would then be in charge at the back end of the negotiations. The last GE, although recent, still treated the EU negotiations in the abstract to an extent.

So, it is simple - get rid of the Tories and we may stand a chance. If they are still in power this time next year God knows where we will be

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 11:29 am

Still in my bunker,with extra provisions.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 11:32 am

Willow904 wrote:http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/uk_59eb6 ... mg00000004
Universal Credit Six-Week Wait Could Soon Be Reduced, Tory MP Suggests
And the rest.....

But we've got NO OPPOSITION!!

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 12:04 pm

PF no point turning the volume down,I can lip read.No point in covering your mouth,either I can read body language and certainly get the gist.The cat hid your emergency smokes under the litter tray,fgs have one it may improve your mood if not language.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 12:06 pm

Does actually look like a bear with a sore head,impressive.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 12:35 pm

Exit polls predict LDP landslide in Japan's snap election - will our own PM be looking on enviously?

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 12:40 pm

http://www.labourexploitation.org/sites ... -Final.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Late (from August) so sorry if we've had it, but just come across Brexit/slavery report.

This paper explores the impact of the United Kingdom leaving the European Union (Brexit) on workers’ vulnerability
to labour exploitation. Combining desk-based research and interviews with members of the Labour Exploitation
Advisory Group (LEAG), this paper sets out how migrant worker vulnerability to exploitation has been affected by the
UK referendum vote to leave the European Union. It looks both at the immediate impact of that decision and considers the key risk areas for the future as the UK transitions out of the EU. It sets out areas for consideration and action during Brexit negotiations and transition, and makes recommendations for the government to mitigate risks to protect workers from labour exploitation.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 12:58 pm

refitman wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:Clive Lewis was light heartedly evoking S&M, wasn't he? Not that I know anything about it, but it's not really "misogyny", is it? It would have been understood well enough by the audience.
It was also directed at a man.

I knew it!

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 1:00 pm

As for the rest, I don't think the other 27 EU member states will all consent to the UK withdrawing notification and remaining on the same (very favourable) terms we are now, no.

Your point about Article 50 is that it's revocable if all 27 agree? Not that it's utterly irrevocable? I didn't understand that you were saying that.

I think the questions for rEU are- Can we help Britain stay if it wants to? Can we do it in such a way that Britain doesn't look like it's took the piss?

It's hard to see that being achieved from here.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 1:10 pm

Depressing nonsense in Czech elections.

Slovakia looks to be in a strong position, at the only Visegrad country led by pro-Europeans.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 1:16 pm

Good-afternoon, everyone

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 1:45 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
As for the rest, I don't think the other 27 EU member states will all consent to the UK withdrawing notification and remaining on the same (very favourable) terms we are now, no.

Your point about Article 50 is that it's revocable if all 27 agree? Not that it's utterly irrevocable? I didn't understand that you were saying that.

I think the questions for rEU are- Can we help Britain stay if it wants to? Can we do it in such a way that Britain doesn't look like it's took the piss?

It's hard to see that being achieved from here.

SH is extremely inconsistent what he says when it is pointed out to him that his opinions are not anything more than that - an opinion. Very shabby from someone who says they work in the law

Your final point may be right who knows - but I imagine the realpolitik would suggest letting the UK stay with a rebate cut would be acceptable to the powers that be - it would set an example for others showing that the practical issues from leaving are insurmountable and it would keep one of the big contributors in. We may also lose some of the EU institutions but the big concessions around the EU and Schengen would not be demanded I don't think

I do not see it as 'taking the piss' if we are granted no concessions and I do not imagine any such concessions would be forthcoming. A UK asking to stay would be doing so from a position of weakness

At the moment the UK staying in is the best option - the others will all leave us worse off overall, with any benefits very superficial

The UK staying in at their own demand would probably be the easiest for the EU as well, if not for the reason that the future negotiations are going to be painful - for the EU as well, Merkel admits that

But first we need to have a Labour-led Government, preferably elected on a clear mandate of staying as close as possible to the EU

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 2:02 pm

I don't think staying on worse terms is politically viable in the UK, really.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 2:05 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:
But first we need to have a Labour-led Government, preferably elected on a clear mandate of staying as close as possible to the EU

There isn't going to be an election before 2022 (unless, as seems unlikely, the Tories recover dramatically in the polls).

So the claim that Labour should now just focus on what works for that General Election, seems to me to be game playing of the worst kind.

Whcih is what Labour is guilty of with the Withdrawal Bill. That Bill is all about the consequences of Brexit internally within the UK. Given Brexit, something looking like it is necessary. We could tweak it a bit (a Parliamentary committee overseeing the giovernment's choices perhaps). But nobody, including Starmer, has suggested any alternative to it.

Starmer wants to make it about Brexit itself. But that decision has already been taken, and he voted for it as did the bulk of Labour under a three line whip.

Starmer's stuff about the Charter is just claptrap. What a terrible disappointment he has been.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 2:11 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:I don't think staying on worse terms is politically viable in the UK, really.

When you say 'politically viable' do you mean with respect to the electorate or the politicians?

I don't think the terms will be massively worse though and also depends on what the EU wants - your assumption is that the EU would 'punish' the UK but it could also be they are relieved and are magnanimous - we just do not know and I think it is dangerous to second guess.....especially when we do not have access to the real opinions of the key actors

The UK populace is incredibly fickle and we will see what opinion looks like once the reality of what we are doing becomes apparent

It is still a long shot but having and losing that referendum has consequences

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 2:12 pm

Brian Klaas‏Verified account
@brianklaas
“Extreme leaf-fall conditions” is my new favorite British transport delay excuse, replacing “wrong kind of sun on tracks” excuse last year.

This bloke is one of my favourite commentators on Trump. Well worth a follow.

Am I being a bit sensitive here because I really care about railways, or is that a bit flippant? There's lots of interesting debate about how railways should be structured, priced etc, but I also pick up a kind of cynicism from people who should know better about the professionals who operate them. These professionals, in Network Rail and the train companies, have achieved fantastic safety levels, and making sure trains don't skid on leaves is part of that.

Rant over.

Follow Brian Klaas though. He's excellent on Trump.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 2:18 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
But first we need to have a Labour-led Government, preferably elected on a clear mandate of staying as close as possible to the EU
There isn't going to be an election before 2022 (unless, as seems unlikely, the Tories recover dramatically in the polls).

So the claim that Labour should now just focus on what works for that General Election, seems to me to be game playing of the worst kind.

Whcih is what Labour is guilty of with the Withdrawal Bill. That Bill is all about the consequences of Brexit internally within the UK. Given Brexit, something looking like it is necessary. We could tweak it a bit (a Parliamentary committee overseeing the giovernment's choices perhaps). But nobody, including Starmer, has suggested any alternative to it.

Starmer wants to make it about Brexit itself. But that decision has already been taken, and he voted for it as did the bulk of Labour under a three line whip.

Starmer's stuff about the Charter is just claptrap. What a terrible disappointment he has been.

Let me correct your first line:

'There isn't likely to be an election before 2022'

From that point on you post is as full of the same 'opinion masquerading as fact shite' as ever other post you put on here

It is like reading the shit that comes from Farage

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 2:25 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
Brian Klaas‏Verified account
@brianklaas
“Extreme leaf-fall conditions” is my new favorite British transport delay excuse, replacing “wrong kind of sun on tracks” excuse last year.
This bloke is one of my favourite commentators on Trump. Well worth a follow.

Am I being a bit sensitive here because I really care about railways, or is that a bit flippant? There's lots of interesting debate about how railways should be structured, priced etc, but I also pick up a kind of cynicism from people who should know better about the professionals who operate them. These professionals, in Network Rail and the train companies, have achieved fantastic safety levels, and making sure trains don't skid on leaves is part of that.

Rant over.

Follow Brian Klaas though. He's excellent on Trump.

I care about the railways too but am not that understanding of the structures

I will say though I was back in the UK two weeks ago and took 8 train journeys

7/8 were more than 15 minutes late (including taking 2 hours to get from Birmingham to Wolverhampton)
On 3/8 trains it was standing room only, none of which were in traditional rush hour
As I could not pre-book I paid extortionate fares for the service I received

I think we discussed not so long ago that the UK had a significantly smaller subsidy/pkm than virtually everyone else in Europe

My personal view of the service is that it is still shite.....

Oh, and on the leaf on the lines when I was waiting for 2 hours on a train out of Brum there was senior train manager from Virgin stood next to me and said at first it was likely to be leaves on the line (it being autumn) as that still leads to speed limits on significant parts of the network at this time of the year.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 2:28 pm

Possibly,but taking the piss can also be a sign of affection.I don't know much about railways beyond it was the only reasonable way to travel any distance for us and even with the difficulties experienced sometimes overall a massive benefit,but there is no disconnect between that and bemoaning lack of accessibility,concerns about driver only,ticketting/booking regimes or indeed being seen as a middle class subsidy.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 2:31 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:I don't think staying on worse terms is politically viable in the UK, really.
When you say 'politically viable' do you mean with respect to the electorate or the politicians?

I don't think the terms will be massively worse though and also depends on what the EU wants - your assumption is that the EU would 'punish' the UK but it could also be they are relieved and are magnanimous - we just do not know and I think it is dangerous to second guess.....especially when we do not have access to the real opinions of the key actors

The UK populace is incredibly fickle and we will see what opinion looks like once the reality of what we are doing becomes apparent

It is still a long shot but having and losing that referendum has consequences

With politicians and the electorate, really. You could just about overturn a referendum to leave if you stay on the same or improved terms, but not on worse ones. I'd certainly rather stay without the rebate than leave though.

Improved terms would come dangerously close to rewarding our arsing everybody about, but maybe if it were something like greater integration of services or digital (which would both suit us) then that wouldn't like a concession to Kippers. Then again, I suppose that would be "more Europe", as David Cameron vacuously called it.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 2:33 pm

Particular circumstance caveat,ie we had different priorities ie it could be gold encrusted luxury wth 3D cinema and personal attendant feeding you grapes,if you can't get on the bloody thing,worthless.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 2:35 pm

HindleA wrote:Possibly,but taking the piss can also be a sign of affection.I don't know much about railways beyond it was the only reasonable way to travel any distance for us and even with the difficulties experienced sometimes overall a massive benefit,but there is no disconnect between that and bemoaning lack of accessibility,concerns about driver only,ticketting/booking regimes or indeed being seen as a middle class subsidy.

I love railways....nothing better on a quiet train going up the East Coast main line on a sunny day...

However, the experience that I have too many times is anything but pleasurable and you pay heavily for the privilege as well

That it continues to be described as 'middle class subsidy' says it all really - I have seen higher education, libraries, leisure services etc all described as such in the past.

Who is left to subsidise now...we give as little as we can to the poor, cut all 'middle class subsidies' we can and make them pay....fab that just leaves the rich who are probably the biggest receivers of Government subsidies of all but we don't talk about cutting that off to often do we?

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 2:40 pm

I accept all those points about rail, HSOM. I don't mean anything too esoteric about "structure", but as you said the prices are largely down to subsidy (or not) of journeys. Loads of debate about whether that's right or wrong, as we've done here. The rolling stock ought to be getting better over the next couple of years.

Yeah, it could be affectionate, Hindle, I'm probably being a bit oversensitive. He's a sensible bloke.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 2:42 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:I don't think staying on worse terms is politically viable in the UK, really.
When you say 'politically viable' do you mean with respect to the electorate or the politicians?

I don't think the terms will be massively worse though and also depends on what the EU wants - your assumption is that the EU would 'punish' the UK but it could also be they are relieved and are magnanimous - we just do not know and I think it is dangerous to second guess.....especially when we do not have access to the real opinions of the key actors

The UK populace is incredibly fickle and we will see what opinion looks like once the reality of what we are doing becomes apparent

It is still a long shot but having and losing that referendum has consequences
With politicians and the electorate, really. You could just about overturn a referendum to leave if you stay on the same or improved terms, but not on worse ones. I'd certainly rather stay without the rebate than leave though.

Improved terms would come dangerously close to rewarding our arsing everybody about, but maybe if it were something like greater integration of services or digital (which would both suit us) then that wouldn't like a concession to Kippers. Then again, I suppose that would be "more Europe", as David Cameron vacuously called it.

No chance of improved terms...and nor should there be.

We will already be a diminished country if we go back and we will have done economic damage and lost some of the institutions. I think the rebate would also go in some form or another. I don't think they will push us further for Schengen and Euro though

If we did say though this would all be forgotten in a few years I think - new Governments and new personalities. It may also teach us to be a bit more positive in our engagement too.

The work Labour doing at the moment with the EU is very important in terms of preparing the future relationship (whatever it is) as someone needs to let them know we are not all vehemently anti-EU

I think it is highly doubtful we will stay in but I would not rule it out at all based on how opinion can change and there is still the future state to discuss as well - let us see

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 2:44 pm

HindleA wrote:Particular circumstance caveat,ie we had different priorities ie it could be gold encrusted luxury wth 3D cinema and personal attendant feeding you grapes,if you can't get on the bloody thing,worthless.

a very good point! one that is easily forgotten is some of my self-focused moaning

MrA reminding us that the world is bigger than our own little personal bubble

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 2:50 pm

Semi joking about middle class,just pointing out,far cheaper (granted concessions)than reasonable alternative in our case,not always about income level etc.When I say reasonable it was possible to combine taxi National coach taxi,with very limited options at best and doubtfully that much cheaper.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 2:52 pm

Railways are very frustrating in that the "good times" always seem to be around the next bend, but there is a lot of rolling stock coming.

And of course, railways have a habit of fluffing their lines on opening night.

http://www.railtechnologymagazine.com/R ... ter-launch" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As I understand it, these glitches aren't unusual with new trains and they will get sorted out. The government of course hasn't helped the impression by being over-ambitious with electrification, cutting it back, then telling us how lucky we are that we're going to get less disturbance from electrification work.

Hybrid trains aren't a bad idea in themselves. You can serve more destinations than with electric trains- apart from Switzerland, with complete electrification, everywhere has small lines/spurs that aren't electrified. With these hybrids you can run direct services to these bits at the end of these little spurs from big central electrified places.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 2:52 pm

We were very lucky fortunate,I obsess a tad about those not so.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 2:56 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:Railways are very frustrating in that the "good times" always seem to be around the next bend, but there is a lot of rolling stock coming.

And of course, railways have a habit of fluffing their lines on opening night.

http://www.railtechnologymagazine.com/R ... ter-launch" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As I understand it, these glitches aren't unusual with new trains and they will get sorted out. The government of course hasn't helped the impression by being over-ambitious with electrification, cutting it back, then telling us how lucky we are that we're going to get less disturbance from electrification work.

Hybrid trains aren't a bad idea in themselves. You can serve more destinations than with electric trains- apart from Switzerland, with complete electrification, everywhere has small lines/spurs that aren't electrified. With these hybrids you can run direct services to these bits at the end of these little spurs from big central electrified places.

we could get back on to what the future of mass transport is going to look like in the future - railways play a massive part of that

One thing that works well over here (and I know it is based on subsidy) is the integration with buses and trams - as well as the national railcard systems that make things a reasonable price

Also, taking public transport is seen as the norm here, many do and there is no stigma.....since the 80s there has been a stigma (outside cities) although outside major cities it is not much fun as the services are pretty awful

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 2:57 pm

Good morfternoon.

WHO cancels Robert Mugabe goodwill ambassador role (BBC News website)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-41713919

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 3:06 pm

Also,their offer of sartorial elegance ambassador to me.I don't know why.