Saturday 21st & Sunday 22nd October 2017

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 3:15 pm

PorFavor wrote:Good morfternoon.

WHO cancels Robert Mugabe goodwill ambassador role (BBC News website)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-41713919

Isn't he (finally) going to meet his maker soon anyway? Or at least that is what is strongly rumoured.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 3:21 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
PorFavor wrote:Good morfternoon.

WHO cancels Robert Mugabe goodwill ambassador role (BBC News website)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-41713919
Isn't he (finally) going to meet his maker soon anyway? Or at least that is what is strongly rumoured.

Oh, I hadn't heard those rumours. He looked fairly chipper, for his age, when I saw him on TV the other day. Still, I suppose he's got to go some time.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 3:33 pm

Big C, allegedly. Many if not most really old men get prostate cancer (even if it doesn't actually finish them off) so its not implausible.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 3:38 pm

PorFavor wrote:Good morfternoon.

Watch out MrH

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 3:44 pm

I have 24hr police protection,an armed guard response team and a helicopter on standby.

PF's nicotine and gin levels have been re-established I think we are out of the danger zone.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 3:56 pm

Not so for the cardboard cut she has made of John Travolta.I hope it is a cardboard cut out,in any case.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 3:59 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... ajid-javid" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Housing crisis: we will borrow to invest in new homes, says Sajid Javid
Communities secretary calls for ‘big increase in all types of home’ including social housing and shared equity homes

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 4:25 pm

UK business chiefs unite to demand urgent Brexit transition deal

Five biggest lobby groups write letter to David Davis urging quick agreement in latest sign of growing alarm among employers over state of talks with EU

The joint intervention is a sign of the mounting anxiety among UK businesses about the lack of progress in Brexit negotiations, almost seven months after the prime minister, Theresa May, triggered article 50.

The lobby groups called on the government to publicly state its position on an implementation phase, sending “EU negotiators a strong positive signal of the government’s readiness to discuss this economically crucial issue”. (Guardian)

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... avid-davis

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 4:39 pm

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/travel/s ... 180958233/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Switzerland’s Historic Bunkers Get a New Lease of Life

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 4:45 pm

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/u ... 9f9edce2df" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Universal Credit Clause Threatens Further Scandal For Government’s Welfare Reform

Apparently has been hiding for several years.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 5:06 pm

@HindleA

Any exit polls yet? How's Tristam doing?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 5:08 pm

Deleted.

(Edited to delete)

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 5:12 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... n-its-land" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
A total of 79 annual licences were granted last year to applicants seeking to engage in trail hunting on trust lands. Licences are granted on the understanding that the hunt simulates a traditional chase, but without foxes being deliberately pursued or killed.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 5:12 pm

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 5:20 pm

PorFavor wrote:@HindleA

Any exit polls yet? How's Tristam doing?

You mean Tarquin? They suggest a win with a reduced majority.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 5:26 pm

HindleA wrote:http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/u ... 9f9edce2df

Universal Credit Clause Threatens Further Scandal For Government’s Welfare Reform

Apparently has been hiding for several years.

It's strange how none of these problems emerged during the extremely long trial period. It's almost as if they only trialed UC on single JSA claimants with no dependents or ill health/disabilities

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 5:32 pm

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/foot ... 13686.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Pole dancing and poker could be included in Olympic Games

Pole dancing I get as athletic, but poker?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 5:40 pm

Oh I thought combined event.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 5:40 pm

And not the card game.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 5:42 pm

HindleA wrote:
PorFavor wrote:@HindleA

Any exit polls yet? How's Tristam doing?

You mean Tarquin? They suggest a win with a reduced majority.

I was just about to go back and correct that! (Having thinking trouble today but I realised that it was wrong the minute I pressed submit.) Please proffer my apologies.

Edited to add - you denied me an edit. So here's one I prepared later . . .

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 5:54 pm

I was musing earlier today on one striking (to me) similarity between UC and Brexit.
Both the outcome of people, including MPs, being utterly oblivious to the administration and bureaucracy behind the scenes that facilitates their daily lives.

People in the news vox pops not understanding why it's taking so long to leave the EU.
People thinking one benefit is easier to administer than six.

We elect MPs to take decisions for us on the basis that they know more about these things than we do, what a disappointment they are.
I accept that in some cases they do know but don't care about the consequences.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 5:55 pm

From the suitably designed message of defiance on the lawn,I take it he has won.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 6:01 pm

The fact that IDS was/is seen in anyway knowledgeable about the benefit system,never mind an expert ,from a broad range of people and perspectives;listened to with any degree of seriousness and got to the position of being anywhere near the DWP is positively frightening,before you get to the "thoroughly decent",stuff.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 6:05 pm

gilsey wrote:I was musing earlier today on one striking (to me) similarity between UC and Brexit.
Both the outcome of people, including MPs, being utterly oblivious to the administration and bureaucracy behind the scenes that facilitates their daily lives.

People in the news vox pops not understanding why it's taking so long to leave the EU.
People thinking one benefit is easier to administer than six.

We elect MPs to take decisions for us on the basis that they know more about these things than we do, what a disappointment they are.
I accept that in some cases they do know but don't care about the consequences.

Mr citizen and I made similar observations just a few minutes ago.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 6:13 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... n-its-land" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
A total of 79 annual licences were granted last year to applicants seeking to engage in trail hunting on trust lands. Licences are granted on the understanding that the hunt simulates a traditional chase, but without foxes being deliberately pursued or killed.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 6:17 pm

gilsey wrote:I was musing earlier today on one striking (to me) similarity between UC and Brexit.
Both the outcome of people, including MPs, being utterly oblivious to the administration and bureaucracy behind the scenes that facilitates their daily lives.

People in the news vox pops not understanding why it's taking so long to leave the EU.
People thinking one benefit is easier to administer than six.

We elect MPs to take decisions for us on the basis that they know more about these things than we do, what a disappointment they are.
I accept that in some cases they do know but don't care about the consequences.

I'm not sure MPs really need to know how everything works behind the scenes, they just need to listen to those that do.

Labour were told UC wouldn't work, so I assume the Tories were told the same, so no excuses.

This whole "we agree with it in principle but..." attitude from many opposing quarters is insidious and lets the Tories off the hook because it suggests they had the right intentions and have just been "unlucky" that the roll out hasn't gone smoothly. There is nothing unlucky about it. It's wilful and knowing sabotage of our social security system.

As for Brexit, I have said a few times now that a proper detailed white paper should have been produced, ideally before the referendum, but certainly before the triggering of article 50. This would have enabled the public (and journalists on behalf of the public) to compare the empty rhetoric of campaign with the cold hard facts as presented by experts from within the civil service.

Gove's attack on experts remains shocking and the most succinct example of why our country is in such a bloody mess.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 6:28 pm

A rod for own back and not just politicos,charities etc,agreeing with the principle when one was already being met to a very large degree and the other actively pernicious if removing necessary complexity IMHO.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 6:41 pm

To be fair,attempts to reframe as to how UC doesn't live up to the principle(s).

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 6:51 pm

Quite a few on the left are sympathetic to the idea of basic income, and some will see something like UC - properly executed - as a step towards that goal.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 7:00 pm

It's the "executed"part I have concerns about

GetYou · Post by **GetYou** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 7:13 pm

Just to give you one example of how poorly executed it has been so far: despite repeated requests from our side, there is no electronic data interface between the housing and benefit IT systems where I work to tell us who has gone on to or come off of UC.

Each and every change needs to be recorded "by hand".

There is no prospect of any proper data flow in the medium term either.

We've had limited UC rollout here (a couple of hundred cases) and it's already a nightmare for income collection officers to make appropriate decisions. In an organisation with approximately 10k households on housing benefit, as the rollout kicks in, it's going to get a lot worse very quickly.

[edit: speeling]

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 7:15 pm

HindleA wrote:It's the "executed"part I have concerns about

As do we all, looks like even some Tory MPs have finally noticed.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 7:20 pm

Goodnight, everyone
love,
cJA

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 7:22 pm

@citizenJA

Night night.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 7:25 pm

HindleA wrote:It's the "executed"part I have concerns about

Me too.

What if " properly executed" doesn't exist.

What if a genuinely automated IT system capable of accurately processing UC claims hasn't actually been successfully developed.

Labour were told it couldn't be done. What if what people are agreeing to "in principle" is actually a fraud?

GetYou · Post by **GetYou** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 7:26 pm

Willow904 wrote:What if a genuinely automated IT system capable of accurately processing UC claims hasn't actually been successfully developed.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 7:33 pm

GetYou wrote:
Willow904 wrote:What if a genuinely automated IT system capable of accurately processing UC claims hasn't actually been successfully developed.

Do explain?

GetYou · Post by **GetYou** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 7:34 pm

From what I have seen and heard we are a long, long way from that.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 7:36 pm

GetYou wrote:
Willow904 wrote:What if a genuinely automated IT system capable of accurately processing UC claims hasn't actually been successfully developed.

Sorry, does that mean it has been developed or it hasn't?

If it hasn't, my point is that UC doesn't exist so can't form the basis for universal income or anything else. It's just 6 separate benefits applied for on a single online-only form, providing a slim excuse to change benefit rules and levels for right wing politically motivated reasons.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 7:40 pm

Depends what you mean "in principle"I took that to mean better off in work/work pays and simplification.That can mean a lot of things/various ways to attend.The fact is UC has differing effects as per previous and has,shall we say,complicated matters no end.Even if as intended,leaves out CT and non means tested and still evident difficulty with health,educational support etc links.

55DegreesNorth · Post by **55DegreesNorth** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 7:57 pm

GetYou wrote:
Willow904 wrote:What if a genuinely automated IT system capable of accurately processing UC claims hasn't actually been successfully developed.

Evening folks,
I posted here, years ago, that I usually have a beer or five before the match with a bunch of IT boffs. Several were in at the start of UC development, and they pissed themselves laughing at the idea it could work. What they were completely confident of was that, as contractors working for a few big name IT firms, they would be in for lots of years of lots of dosh, and it still wouldn’t work.
And so it came to pass...

PS @HindleA. Your poker comment had me giggling for a good while. Cheers.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 8:00 pm

HindleA wrote:Depends what you mean "in principle"I took that to mean better off in work/work pays and simplification.That can mean a lot of things/various ways to attend.The fact is UC has differing effects as per previous and has,shall we say,complicated matters no end.Even if as intended,leaves out CT and non means tested and still evident difficulty with health,educational support etc links.

Surely it's possible to agree with the Tories (highly dubious) stated aims without feeling compelled to agree UC is the only/best way to achieve them?

I'm worried the phantom that is UC is being given a gloss of credibility as a real and functioning thing by people agreeing to it in principle.

We've seen some chinks emerge in recent weeks. Let's get out the crow bar and crack it wide open before the Tories get to work with the sticking plasters!

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 8:03 pm

Willow904 wrote:
HindleA wrote:Depends what you mean "in principle"I took that to mean better off in work/work pays and simplification.That can mean a lot of things/various ways to attend.The fact is UC has differing effects as per previous and has,shall we say,complicated matters no end.Even if as intended,leaves out CT and non means tested and still evident difficulty with health,educational support etc links.
Surely it's possible to agree with the Tories (highly dubious) stated aims without feeling compelled to agree UC is the only/best way to achieve them?

I'm worried the phantom that is UC is being given a gloss of credibility as a real and functioning thing by people agreeing to it in principle.

We've seen some chinks emerge in recent weeks. Let's get out the crow bar and crack it wide open before the Tories get to work with the sticking plasters!

Yes - I see it as only a slight variation on the old "I welcome, but . . ." thing.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 9:54 pm

Now that we have solved UC, anything else happening?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 10:14 pm

Bowling Alley seige in Nuneaton.Lewis Hamilton closing in on another World Championship.Rosemary Leach dying RIP.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 10:20 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41712527" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Fox renewed Bill O'Reilly deal despite harassment suit

Former Fox News commentator Bill O'Reilly was handed a new contract in January, despite the network's parent company knowing he had recently settled a sexual harassment case.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 10:22 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... cki-marble" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Cub Scout kicked out of group after grilling Colorado Republican on guns

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 10:26 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... cal-agency" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Dublin ramps up bid to lure post-Brexit European Medical Agency

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 10:30 pm

PF's just let one rip and made the cat jump,but that's not news so much as a regular occurence

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 10:36 pm

Here she is in earlier days

[youtube]Wc-3KaD6GhY[/youtube]