Tuesday 24th October 2017

[refitman]

Morning all.

[tinybgoat]

Stephen Kinnock
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... t-disaster" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Only a Labour no-confidence motion in the Tories can avert a Brexit disaster"
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... en-kinnock" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The government is making an utter shambles of negotiations. My party, united under Jeremy Corbyn and with no Europhobic baggage, is Britain’s only hope

[howsillyofme1]

Cue Hugo with his rant about the Article 50 vote and that all who voted for it are doomed to rot in Hades for ever as some of the most despicable people to roam the Earth

[SpinningHugo]

Stephen Kinnock
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... t-disaster" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Only a Labour no-confidence motion in the Tories can avert a Brexit disaster"
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... en-kinnock" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The government is making an utter shambles of negotiations. My party, united under Jeremy Corbyn and with no Europhobic baggage, is Britain’s only hope

"we have none of the antagonistic, Europhobic baggage that the Conservative party carries."

Corbyn?

McDonnell?

The rest of the Campaign Group?

Kinnock was complaining about what a disgrace it was that the steel going into the palace of Westminster wasn't British over the weekend. Not a serious person.

[SpinningHugo]

Cue Hugo with his rant about the Article 50 vote and that all who voted for it are doomed to rot in Hades for ever as some of the most despicable people to roam the Earth

No, but I think people who voted for art 50, like Umunna, who then claim to oppose the consequences are hypocrites.

Most of the PLP is in that category. Not all of course (eg Mary Creagh).

Corbyn is, I think, more understadable. He and McDonnell haven;t changed their minds, and almost certainly supports Brexit along with the rest of the Campaign Group. But as leader he is constrained. He has to represent the party's view, even if he disagrees with it. That is his job.

I'm a bit surprised to find we have a fan of Stephen Kinnock among us, but there we are.

[howsillyofme1]

Whatever Corbyn and McDonnell said in the ast on the EU is irrelevant now as no one will be able to use it against them

To say they are Europhobic in word and action at the moment as compared to the visceral mood in the Tory Party is not credible

They used to be anti-EU but voting not to join a club is a different question than leaving it after 40 years

You are not a serious person

[howsillyofme1]

Cue Hugo with his rant about the Article 50 vote and that all who voted for it are doomed to rot in Hades for ever as some of the most despicable people to roam the Earth

No, but I think people who voted for art 50, like Umunna, who then claim to oppose the consequences are hypocrites.

Most of the PLP is in that category. Not all of course (eg Mary Creagh).

Corbyn is, I think, more understadable. He and McDonnell haven;t changed their minds, and almost certainly supports Brexit along with the rest of the Campaign Group. But as leader he is constrained. He has to represent the party's view, even if he disagrees with it. That is his job.

I'm a bit surprised to find we have a fan of Stephen Kinnock among us, but there we are.

who said I am a fan of Kinnock?

Where is your evidence that Corbyn is pro-Brexit.....do you contend he lied when he has said clearly he voted Remain and would do so again?

I don’t think he is the EUs biggest fan but that is a fair position to take.....it is currently politically dominated by the right, including some with fascistic tendencies. It does have other things that commend it though

[tinybgoat]

Hugo's comments on Corbyn & McDonnell were predictable & expected,
but a bit lost as to why Kinnock standing up for his constituents interests, should undermine his credibility.

[SpinningHugo]

Where is your evidence that Corbyn is pro-Brexit

His 40 year career of opposing the EU.

His conduct during the referendum campaign.

His words and conduct after the referendum campaign.

How the Campaign Group outside of leadership roles votes.

Who he has appointed around him as his closest advisers.

Of course, none of this is absolute proof of what goes on in his head.

Politics is weird in the UK. We have a PM who opposed Brexit, negotiating for it in the most ham fisted way. And a leader of the opposition who supports it, but has achieved electoral success by being more Remain.

I'm glad I voted Green. Lucas has been consistently excellent on Brexit.

[howsillyofme1]

why do I let myself get drawn into discussions with SH on past decisions or opinions that were argued about passionately at the time

These are over now and we know most people opinions on these questions and why they think it - if not go back and read the posts from a year or so ago

The question now is how (and who) we can deliver the best outcome possible for the UK in the circumstances, without forgetting all the appalling other things this Government is up to at the moment

[howsillyofme1]

Where is your evidence that Corbyn is pro-Brexit

His 40 year career of opposing the EU.

His conduct during the referendum campaign.

His words and conduct after the referendum campaign.

How the Campaign Group outside of leadership roles votes.

Who he has appointed around him as his closest advisers.

Of course, none of this is absolute proof of what goes on in his head.

Politics is weird in the UK. We have a PM who opposed Brexit, negotiating for it in the most ham fisted way. And a leader of the opposition who supports it, but has achieved electoral success by being more Remain.

I'm glad I voted Green. Lucas has been consistently excellent on Brexit.

No politics isn’t particularly weird it is just your imagination creating an alternative reality that is odd......

[tinybgoat]

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-41733429" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Donald Tusk:

 "It is in fact up to London how this will end: with a good deal, no deal or no Brexit. But in each of these scenarios we will protect our common interest only by being together."

(Apologies for posting brexit stuff again)

[RogerOThornhill]

Morning all.

Interesting portrait of the director of education at Sheffield University...mainly for what it reveals about Gove.

https://schoolsweek.co.uk/sam-twiselton ... ation/amp/

As she tells it, then-education secretary Michael Gove recruited Carter to write a review, officially to find out “what was and wasn’t working” in teacher training – but in truth to justify his desire to “take teacher training out of the ivory towers and put it into schools”.

Carter, who ran his own school-based teacher training, shared Gove’s bugbear, considering it unfair that universities had a “monopoly on the academic award” – a gripe reinforced by his ideological belief that “universities aren’t that good at teacher training”.

“That was definitely his starting position,” she admits. “He said that’s what Michael Gove spoke to him about and why he asked him.”

but...

Far from fulfilling Gove’s intentions, then, the final report emphasised the value of partnership between schools and universities. “In the end, [Carter] couldn’t really go against the force of the evidence, that the best teacher training provision we saw had a really good combination of universities and other people in schools,” she explains.

It’s “one of the things I’m most proud of”, she says, that he ultimately came to see “the value of partnership”. In a complete volte-face, Carter now sits on the advisory board of the Sheffield IoE.

[Willow904]

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2017/10 ... transition" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Brexit: There is no such thing as transition

Not the best headline. There will be transition at some point. What's being talked about here is the fact that in reality what is going to be needed is an extension of the article 50 process because we won't be in a position by March 2019 to leave the EU. Eurotom is a good illustration of this. When we officially leave the EU we can't be in Eurotom, unless a new way for us to belong from outside the EU is arranged and this isn't going to be possible in time. Likewise, if we decide to make new arrangements outside of Eurotom, again there isn't time to have this established by 2019. Our arrangements for nuclear have to be approved internationally. There isn't really a "cobble something together" option. Extension of article 50, however, would buy all the time necessary. Of course, there is no way Theresa May can sell this to leave voting Tories. Which is probably why she wanted to win a bigger majority and buy herself a couple of extra years, before they started to twig that we won't be leaving the EU for quite a few years yet.

[citizenJA]

Good-morning, everyone

[HindleA]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-41722225" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[citizenJA]

Tory leadership decided Tory government is more important than the lives of millions and the well-being of the UK
Sending off Article 50 and not having any credible plan

[HindleA]

http://www.katebelgrave.com/2017/10/we- ... ghtly-let/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


We housed a homeless family back in the flat they’d just been evicted from. Landlord decided he’d get more from a nightly let

[Willow904]

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... ton-harris" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Academics are accusing a Tory MP and government whip of “McCarthyite” behaviour, after he wrote to all universities asking them to declare what they are teaching their students about Brexit and to provide a list of teachers’ names.

Unbelievable.

[citizenJA]

Madness, all of it

[SpinningHugo]

I suppose the interesting thing about Jared O'Mara is what he has done since entering Parliament. Virtually nothing. 3 written questions all about Israel (he is a Corbynite).

I suppose there s not much for most MPs to do. I think we should cut their numbers, and let not the number who can serve in the government to a reasonable proportion. 300 would be more than enough. We just don't need silly young men like O:Mara doing the job.

[citizenJA]

I suppose the interesting thing about Jared O'Mara is what he has done since entering Parliament. Virtually nothing. ---

(cJA edit)
O'Mara has been an MP for less than five months

[SpinningHugo]

I suppose the interesting thing about Jared O'Mara is what he has done since entering Parliament. Virtually nothing. ---

(cJA edit)
O'Mara has been an MP for less than five months

True, but he doesn't seem to have troubled to do anything at all in that time.

I don't think there is work for all these MPs. Cut dramatically, cut MPs who can serve in government, and allow appointment of non MPs to roles like PPS.

[I suspect he is also rather unpleasant "he was only 22" not being much of an excuse. Vetting, for what was a very winnable seat, seems to have been very poor.]

[SpinningHugo]

This interview with O'Mara is very interesting

http://www.huckmagazine.com/perspective ... years-ago/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Reinforced my view of him.

[RogerOThornhill]

I suppose the interesting thing about Jared O'Mara is what he has done since entering Parliament. Virtually nothing. ---

(cJA edit)
O'Mara has been an MP for less than five months

And 10 weeks of that has been in recess.

Ignore him - he's just trollling.

[citizenJA]

He took responsibility for something said over a dozen years ago
I can trust people who make amends for their wrongs

[Tubby Isaacs]

I don't know if we commented on this at the time, but the rail budget for the next 5 years (2019-24) was announced about 2 weeks ago.

https://www.globalrailnews.com/2017/10/ ... work-rail/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

£47.9bn, of which £34.7bn is direct grant from the government.

That's very impressive if it all materializes.

[SpinningHugo]

He took responsibility for something said over a dozen years ago
I can trust people who make amends for their wrongs

Yes, it was football culture apparently.

And if it had been a Tory,, they should resign as an MP.

Very convincing.

There are lots of rubbish MPs, O'Mara just happens to be in the news. He has done nothing as bad as, say, Lavery. Plenty of dreadful ones for all parties.

However, how do we get better ones? There are not enough good candidates in my opinion, so cut them. Cut the payroll vote at the same time.

[Tubby Isaacs]

We can't cut the payroll. Only political parties can do that. If we reduce the number of MPs to 300, that's going to wipe out back bench rebellions.

Better to keep the 650 and have some form of PR.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Mr O'Mara needs to withdraw himself from the whip, pronto.

[SpinningHugo]

We can't cut the payroll. Only political parties can do that. If we reduce the number of MPs to 300, that's going to wipe out back bench rebellions.

Better to keep the 650 and have some form of PR.

Why can't we cut the payroll vote?

It would allow the pool serving the government to be wider (and almost certainly better).

Cut them. No more pps MPs.

[RogerOThornhill]

Thread on that letter from the Tory MP to uni Vice Chancellors.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Willow904]

Mr O'Mara needs to withdraw himself from the whip, pronto.

Any specific reason? Has there been more?

I think he is an arrogant white male privileged twat to have put himself forward for a place on the Commons Women and Equalities Committee given his past views, reformed or not, and his resignation from such has done everyone a favour, but given the appalling behaviour glossed over by every other political party I balk a little at the idea of a squalid right wing gossip site being allowed to drum him out of his chosen political party. A little time should be taken to assess whether the accusations are proportionate or whether they are being unfairly sensationalised. Labour should consider for some considerable time and if there really is a problem deal with it well after the furore has died down because they believe it appropriate and not because they have been bounced into it by gobby Tory cheerleaders.

[Tubby Isaacs]

We can't cut the payroll. Only political parties can do that. If we reduce the number of MPs to 300, that's going to wipe out back bench rebellions.

Better to keep the 650 and have some form of PR.

Why can't we cut the payroll vote?

It would allow the pool serving the government to be wider (and almost certainly better).

Cut them. No more pps MPs.

Because "we" don't choose the size of the payroll.

[HindleA]

Gauke refusing to come to debate,apparently.Following a noble tradition but IDS had Webb as his stand in.

[HindleA]

Or a sudden urgent meeting in Paris,or some such.

[AnatolyKasparov]

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... ton-harris

Academics are accusing a Tory MP and government whip of “McCarthyite” behaviour, after he wrote to all universities asking them to declare what they are teaching their students about Brexit and to provide a list of teachers’ names.

Unbelievable.

Actually, its all *too* believable.

[HindleA]

Miller's not being available apart from interviews in her office etc.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Mr O'Mara needs to withdraw himself from the whip, pronto.

Any specific reason? Has there been more?

I think he is an arrogant white male privileged twat to have put himself forward for a place on the Commons Women and Equalities Committee given his past views, reformed or not, and his resignation from such has done everyone a favour, but given the appalling behaviour glossed over by every other political party I balk a little at the idea of a squalid right wing gossip site being allowed to drum him out of his chosen political party. A little time should be taken to assess whether the accusations are proportionate or whether they are being unfairly sensationalised. Labour should consider for some considerable time and if there really is a problem deal with it well after the furore has died down because they believe it appropriate and not because they have been bounced into it by gobby Tory cheerleaders.

He withdraws, the furore dies down. Labour then takes its time.

Suspension while investigation is pretty normal anyway.

[AnatolyKasparov]

I suppose the interesting thing about Jared O'Mara is what he has done since entering Parliament. Virtually nothing. 3 written questions all about Israel (he is a Corbynite)

His medical condition means he finds doing some stuff difficult. That is not meant as a defence of him more generally - but do we want disabled MPs in the HoC or not?

[Willow904]

Mr O'Mara needs to withdraw himself from the whip, pronto.

Any specific reason? Has there been more?

I think he is an arrogant white male privileged twat to have put himself forward for a place on the Commons Women and Equalities Committee given his past views, reformed or not, and his resignation from such has done everyone a favour, but given the appalling behaviour glossed over by every other political party I balk a little at the idea of a squalid right wing gossip site being allowed to drum him out of his chosen political party. A little time should be taken to assess whether the accusations are proportionate or whether they are being unfairly sensationalised. Labour should consider for some considerable time and if there really is a problem deal with it well after the furore has died down because they believe it appropriate and not because they have been bounced into it by gobby Tory cheerleaders.

He withdraws, the furore dies down. Labour then takes its time.

Suspension while investigation is pretty normal anyway.

Then a suspension would be more appropriate than him withdrawing, I would have thought.

[HindleA]

Switched off,after "pool",the phraseology of the eugenicist.

[Tubby Isaacs]

I think he takes one for the team, gets the heat off the leader.

[citizenJA]

No 10 disowns Tory whip's attempt to monitor what universities teach about Brexit

At the Downing Street lobby briefing the prime minister’s spokesman distanced the government from the Tory MP Chris Heaton-Harris’s freelance Brexit university monitoring campaign. As a whip Heaton-Harris is a member of the government. But he was not acting on behalf of the government in this case, the spokesman said. The spokesman told journalists:

"This was sent in his capacity as an MP, not a government representative."

(cJA emphasis)

The distinction attempted is inappropriate

[HindleA]

Other MP's constituents are not his concern,breaching the particular MP and their constituents relationship.In reverse constituents have to go via their own MP,others won't answer for them,or shouldn't.

[howsillyofme1]

on Mr O’Mara

I agree with AK that, although it does not excuse comments like that, he is suffering from a condition that may cause certain behaviour that should be considered with that in mind

As I said I am not trying to defend his comments but I have found a few of the attacks on him a little distasteful and does not encourage me that we accept such illnesses with due consideration

I admit I have a mild form as mentioned yesterday that manifests itself as occasional verbal impulsiveness and issues with distance and depth perception.

I just ask for a little bit more caution in allowing Guido to make all the running here and setting the context

[Willow904]

I think he takes one for the team, gets the heat off the leader.

I've just looked at the BBC article again and I think you might be right as it seems Labour have already indicated they aren't going to suspend him which suggests they aren't going to investigate further, which could be a mistake. His forcing them to investigate by withdrawing and hopefully clearing his name and getting reinstated may prove better for him in the long run than having it hanging over him.

[Willow904]

Anyway, back to the Russian/right wing conspiracy theory:

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Carole Cadwalladr
@carolecadwalla
Well, this could get interesting..
Head of fake news inquiry demands Facebook hands over Russian-linked Brexit ads. Well done @damiancollins

An unlikely champion against the forces of fake news, perhaps, but good to see a Tory remainer showing even a little backbone rather than rolling over and letting the Brexit mob trample all over our democratic rights with their dodgy spending and even dodgier connections.

[SpinningHugo]

We can't cut the payroll. Only political parties can do that. If we reduce the number of MPs to 300, that's going to wipe out back bench rebellions.

Better to keep the 650 and have some form of PR.

Why can't we cut the payroll vote?

It would allow the pool serving the government to be wider (and almost certainly better).

Cut them. No more pps MPs.

Because "we" don't choose the size of the payroll.

Limit it through legislation.

[howsillyofme1]

Ahh I just thanked a crap post by accident!

Don’t you need party Government agreement to legislate....note UC vote last week!

edit: phew removed it

also the original idea is shit anyway....we don’t have a lot of elected representation when compared to other countries