Tuesday 21st November 2017

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refitman
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Tuesday 21st November 2017

Post by refitman »

Morning all.
SpinningHugo
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Re: Tuesday 21st November 2017

Post by SpinningHugo »

John McDonnell and David Davies going through the lobby together last night to end Single Market membership.

Vote Green.
PorFavor
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Re: Tuesday 21st November 2017

Post by PorFavor »

Good morfternoon.
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Willow904
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Re: Tuesday 21st November 2017

Post by Willow904 »

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ear-brexit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The consensus is clear: there is no upside to a nuclear Brexit
Clare Moody
A timely reminder of what's at stake from Labour's South West MEP Class Moody.
"Fall seven times, get up eight" - Japanese proverb
PaulfromYorkshire
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Re: Tuesday 21st November 2017

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

SpinningHugo wrote:John McDonnell and David Davies going through the lobby together last night to end Single Market membership.

Vote Green.
Vote Green if you want of course, but as JA said wisely last night check your sources first!

Barry Gardiner‏Verified account @BarryGardiner 10h10 hours ago
Barry Gardiner Retweeted Robert Peston
Nonsense Robert!
@Peston.
We voted against an amendment that would have taken away any safety net against a No Deal Brexit.
Under WTO rules UK would have been unable to impose ANY tariff on goods from ANY country in the world.
Amendment was illiterate.

Barry Gardiner‏Verified account @BarryGardiner 10h10 hours ago
Barry Gardiner Retweeted Robert Peston
Also...it was a 1line Whip! ;-)

Barry Gardiner‏Verified account @BarryGardiner 9h9 hours ago
Barry Gardiner Retweeted Paul Leake
1/3
Amendment would have stopped Treasury from applying any tariffs or quotas to goods in or out of EU after Brexit. It did NOT keep us in Customs Union as EU could still impose tariffs on us!

2/3...
WTO’s ‘most favoured nation’ rule says unless you have a specific trade agreement you must give all countries the same tariff & quota deal as you give the most favoured.
So if you can’t give tariffs to EU you can’t to anyone else either!

3/3
So amendment would mean:
i)Under No Deal the U.K. could not impose ANY tariffs or quotas.
ii)even if we had a Customs Union Agreement with the EU but had a dispute over dumping we would not be able to impose any countervailing tariff to defend our industry
Hope that helps!
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RogerOThornhill
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Re: Tuesday 21st November 2017

Post by RogerOThornhill »

Morning all. Off to a school meeting in a few minutes.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ouch.
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SpinningHugo
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Re: Tuesday 21st November 2017

Post by SpinningHugo »

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:John McDonnell and David Davies going through the lobby together last night to end Single Market membership.

Vote Green.
Vote Green if you want of course, but as JA said wisely last night check your sources first!

Barry Gardiner‏Verified account @BarryGardiner 10h10 hours ago
Barry Gardiner Retweeted Robert Peston
Nonsense Robert!
@Peston.
We voted against an amendment that would have taken away any safety net against a No Deal Brexit.
Under WTO rules UK would have been unable to impose ANY tariff on goods from ANY country in the world.
Amendment was illiterate.

Barry Gardiner‏Verified account @BarryGardiner 10h10 hours ago
Barry Gardiner Retweeted Robert Peston
Also...it was a 1line Whip! ;-)

Barry Gardiner‏Verified account @BarryGardiner 9h9 hours ago
Barry Gardiner Retweeted Paul Leake
1/3
Amendment would have stopped Treasury from applying any tariffs or quotas to goods in or out of EU after Brexit. It did NOT keep us in Customs Union as EU could still impose tariffs on us!

2/3...
WTO’s ‘most favoured nation’ rule says unless you have a specific trade agreement you must give all countries the same tariff & quota deal as you give the most favoured.
So if you can’t give tariffs to EU you can’t to anyone else either!

3/3
So amendment would mean:
i)Under No Deal the U.K. could not impose ANY tariffs or quotas.
ii)even if we had a Customs Union Agreement with the EU but had a dispute over dumping we would not be able to impose any countervailing tariff to defend our industry
Hope that helps!

Well, I suppose it helps me to this extent. It makes for me my usual point that some people see politics as sport and will side with Labour come what may.

I do know what Barry Gardiner thinks. He has written about it here.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ain-europe" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

He favours Hard Brexit.

All the arguments you give above are the ones given by IDS and Davies.

I'm surprised to find you agreeing with them.

The usual Labour partisans defences are

1. The people have spoken

2. The Tories have a majority anyway

3. Labour is slightly more Remainy and there is no choice (see Angryaswell)

I'm surprised you endorse Gardiner's Hard Brexit nonsense. But yes, my understanding is now enhanced.
SpinningHugo
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Re: Tuesday 21st November 2017

Post by SpinningHugo »

It is also fair to say there were 29 Labour rebels who defied the whip and sided with the rest of the opposition.

A small and diminishing band.
PaulfromYorkshire
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Re: Tuesday 21st November 2017

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

SpinningHugo wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:John McDonnell and David Davies going through the lobby together last night to end Single Market membership.

Vote Green.
Vote Green if you want of course, but as JA said wisely last night check your sources first!

Barry Gardiner‏Verified account @BarryGardiner 10h10 hours ago
Barry Gardiner Retweeted Robert Peston
Nonsense Robert!
@Peston.
We voted against an amendment that would have taken away any safety net against a No Deal Brexit.
Under WTO rules UK would have been unable to impose ANY tariff on goods from ANY country in the world.
Amendment was illiterate.

Barry Gardiner‏Verified account @BarryGardiner 10h10 hours ago
Barry Gardiner Retweeted Robert Peston
Also...it was a 1line Whip! ;-)

Barry Gardiner‏Verified account @BarryGardiner 9h9 hours ago
Barry Gardiner Retweeted Paul Leake
1/3
Amendment would have stopped Treasury from applying any tariffs or quotas to goods in or out of EU after Brexit. It did NOT keep us in Customs Union as EU could still impose tariffs on us!

2/3...
WTO’s ‘most favoured nation’ rule says unless you have a specific trade agreement you must give all countries the same tariff & quota deal as you give the most favoured.
So if you can’t give tariffs to EU you can’t to anyone else either!

3/3
So amendment would mean:
i)Under No Deal the U.K. could not impose ANY tariffs or quotas.
ii)even if we had a Customs Union Agreement with the EU but had a dispute over dumping we would not be able to impose any countervailing tariff to defend our industry
Hope that helps!

Well, I suppose it helps me to this extent. It makes for me my usual point that some people see politics as sport and will side with Labour come what may.

I do know what Barry Gardiner thinks. He has written about it here.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ain-europe" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

He favours Hard Brexit.

All the arguments you give above are the ones given by IDS and Davies.

I'm surprised to find you agreeing with them.

The usual Labour partisans defences are

1. The people have spoken

2. The Tories have a majority anyway

3. Labour is slightly more Remainy and there is no choice (see Angryaswell)

I'm surprised you endorse Gardiner's Hard Brexit nonsense. But yes, my understanding is now enhanced.
You said they voted together to end Single Market membership. Seeing as you now understand you should presumably retract that nonsense.

Only a Tory would seek to promote this divisive discourse among those trying their best to oppose the Tories.

Anyway other stuff to do. Later ;-)
PaulfromYorkshire
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Re: Tuesday 21st November 2017

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

Oh sorry and Tim Farron!
SpinningHugo
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Re: Tuesday 21st November 2017

Post by SpinningHugo »

@PfY

Yes, quite sure

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 1.html?amp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The motion and how they voted is a matter of record.

I think Gardiner and IDS are living in a fantasy world.
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Re: Tuesday 21st November 2017

Post by NonOxCol »

Publicly-funded Murdoch lackey and blatant Brexiteer righteously owned:

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(The original tweet is worth finding: this is Germany's "worst crisis since the late 1940s" apparently)
PaulfromYorkshire
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Re: Tuesday 21st November 2017

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... phe-misery" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

mistake-universal-credit-catastrophe-misery

John Harris
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Willow904
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Re: Tuesday 21st November 2017

Post by Willow904 »

Andrew Neil
@afneil
Germany tonight in its biggest political crisis since late 1940s. Bigger even than UK’s current ongoing political crisis.
Jon Worth
@jonworth
You have not got a clue.

One of four parties walked out of coalition talks. It might take a while to find a solution.

Big. F**king. Deal.
Andrew Neil
@afneil
Guess you’re not reading/watching German media.
Jon Worth
@jonworth
I LIVE in Germany.
I am a member of a German political party and am a delegate to its party congress.
I follow German politics for my job.

And, just maybe, I might know a thing or two about it?
:rofl:

Funnily enough I came across this exchange that made Andrew Neil look a right chump because I happen to follow Jon Worth because he's good on European politics! :D

Edited to add I see NonOxCol beat me to it (and is probably how I ended up following Jon Worth in the first place!)
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Re: Tuesday 21st November 2017

Post by HindleA »

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... t-on-train" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
PorFavor
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Re: Tuesday 21st November 2017

Post by PorFavor »

@Willow904

This one's probably my favourite -

"Sadly, we are done with experts, Jon. Please reapply when you know nothing about the subject in question"
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Willow904
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Re: Tuesday 21st November 2017

Post by Willow904 »

PorFavor wrote:@Willow904

This one's probably my favourite -

"Sadly, we are done with experts, Jon. Please reapply when you know nothing about the subject in question"
:lol!:
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Re: Tuesday 21st November 2017

Post by HindleA »

"Britain’s budget gap unexpectedly widened last month, underscoring finance minister Philip Hammond’s challenge as he juggles calls for more spending in his budget on Wednesday with the prospect of weaker economic growth ahead.

The deficit, excluding state-run banks, stood at £8.0bn, up 6.9% compared with October 2016, the Office for National Statistics said on Tuesday.

Rising debt costs, linked to Britain’s higher inflation since the Brexit vote, were a driver of the shortfall.

The budget shortfall was bigger than a median forecast of £7.0bn in a Reuters poll of economists."
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Re: Tuesday 21st November 2017

Post by HindleA »

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistic ... s-oct-2017" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


National Statistics
UK public sector finances: Oct 2017
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Re: Tuesday 21st November 2017

Post by HindleA »

Not sure what election I am supposed to vote Green in,but no sign of voting cards yet.
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Re: Tuesday 21st November 2017

Post by HindleA »

Young persons' railcard age extension
Last edited by HindleA on Tue 21 Nov, 2017 10:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
PaulfromYorkshire
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Re: Tuesday 21st November 2017

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

Some great posts here this morning. Thanks everyone :-)
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Re: Tuesday 21st November 2017

Post by HindleA »

:D
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Re: Tuesday 21st November 2017

Post by HindleA »

Though apologies to PF for absence of applause,head bowing etc on her arrival.
PorFavor
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Re: Tuesday 21st November 2017

Post by PorFavor »

HindleA wrote:Though apologies to PF for absence of applause,head bowing etc on her arrival.
Tomorrow is another day . . .
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Re: Tuesday 21st November 2017

Post by gilsey »

Well done England women's cricket team, just won the last T20 to draw the series.
They were 30/3 after 5 overs in reply to 178/2, won it with an over to spare. Knight 51, Wyatt 100.
Squeaky bum time at the end mind, shame it's on BTSport.
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Re: Tuesday 21st November 2017

Post by gilsey »

Andrew Neil's really getting some stick on twitter, what a klutz.
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Re: Tuesday 21st November 2017

Post by AnatolyKasparov »

NonOxCol wrote:Publicly-funded Murdoch lackey and blatant Brexiteer righteously owned:

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(The original tweet is worth finding: this is Germany's "worst crisis since the late 1940s" apparently)
I mean, Neil sometimes actually comes across as more clued up than certain pundits. What on earth made him write such risible ahistorical trash?
"IS TONTY BLAIR BEHIND THIS???!!!!111???!!!"
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Re: Tuesday 21st November 2017

Post by gilsey »

Did anyone else watch the Labour Summer documentary? I found it very amusing.
How dim is Stephen Kinnock? Can't we have his wife instead?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b ... everything" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Tuesday 21st November 2017

Post by HindleA »

https://mainlymacro.blogspot.co.uk/2017 ... etter.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Should Labour be doing better?



Wren-Lewis
gilsey
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Re: Tuesday 21st November 2017

Post by gilsey »

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
NonOxCol wrote:Publicly-funded Murdoch lackey and blatant Brexiteer righteously owned:

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(The original tweet is worth finding: this is Germany's "worst crisis since the late 1940s" apparently)
I mean, Neil sometimes actually comes across as more clued up than certain pundits. What on earth made him write such risible ahistorical trash?
Drink?
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AnatolyKasparov
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Re: Tuesday 21st November 2017

Post by AnatolyKasparov »

gilsey wrote:Did anyone else watch the Labour Summer documentary? I found it very amusing.
How dim is Stephen Kinnock? Can't we have his wife instead?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b ... everything" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Carrying on from my previous post, certain "political journalists" bigged him up as a future Labour leader in the 2015-17 parliament.

Which is really all that you need to know about them :D
"IS TONTY BLAIR BEHIND THIS???!!!!111???!!!"
PorFavor
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Re: Tuesday 21st November 2017

Post by PorFavor »

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
gilsey wrote:Did anyone else watch the Labour Summer documentary? I found it very amusing.
How dim is Stephen Kinnock? Can't we have his wife instead?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b ... everything" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Carrying on from my previous post, certain "political journalists" bigged him up as a future Labour leader in the 2015-17 parliament.

Which is really all that you need to know about them :D
I entertained vague hopes for him at one time as he is a very good speaker. Unfortunately, as it turns out, there's a bit of a problem with most of what he says . . .
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Re: Tuesday 21st November 2017

Post by PorFavor »

(@peterwalker99)

Davis taking no questions after speech to Brexit event. In fact he's so keen to sprint off he almost trips over a power cord on way out.
November 21, 2017 (Politics Live, Guardian)
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Re: Tuesday 21st November 2017

Post by AnatolyKasparov »

PorFavor wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
gilsey wrote:Did anyone else watch the Labour Summer documentary? I found it very amusing.
How dim is Stephen Kinnock? Can't we have his wife instead?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b ... everything" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Carrying on from my previous post, certain "political journalists" bigged him up as a future Labour leader in the 2015-17 parliament.

Which is really all that you need to know about them :D
I entertained vague hopes for him at one time as he is a very good speaker. Unfortunately, as it turns out, there's a bit of a problem with most of what he says . . .
Indeed - invoking Vichy (knowingly or otherwise) in a much trailed intervention before the GE was a particular low point.
"IS TONTY BLAIR BEHIND THIS???!!!!111???!!!"
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Re: Tuesday 21st November 2017

Post by NonOxCol »

World's least surprising take alert:

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Tuesday 21st November 2017

Post by SpinningHugo »

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Indeed - invoking Vichy (knowingly or otherwise) in a much trailed intervention before the GE was a particular low point.
Almost all that wing of Labour (Reeves etc) have disgraced themselves over Brexit.

With a very few honourable exceptions (Mary Creagh) they deserve all that they are now going to get stuck in a party that hates them.

For too many it is now clear that the reason they opposed Corbyn was not because of what he actually thinks about Nato, the EU, the return to state management of the economy, etc, but because they thought he would lose. Nothing else. They look wholly unprincipled.
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Re: Tuesday 21st November 2017

Post by Willow904 »

NonOxCol wrote:World's least surprising take alert:

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Johnny Marr distances himself from Morrissey's Brexit views
The legendary guitarist says his bandmate's recent political proclamations suggest The Smiths are better off staying split up.
https://news.sky.com/story/johnny-marr- ... s-10641019" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Tuesday 21st November 2017

Post by AnatolyKasparov »

That's not terribly surprising either :)
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Re: Tuesday 21st November 2017

Post by howsillyofme1 »

Afternoon all

Some interesting posts this morning but again we have repetition again on how terrible Labour are with very little new

I was skeptical about the amendment was not supported for a couple of reasons.

Firstly there was the law of unintended consequences and the last thing we need is more flawed legislation as we have enough of that already

Also a commitment to remain in the CU would be a big change of approach for the party and would not be best served by announcing through the support of a backbench amendment

Labour has insisted on concentration on outcomes rather than mechanisms. In some ways this is a clever tactic as it allows them to avoid communicating to the how until they are ready

The big outcome to watch for in the short term is Ireland. I am sure there is no desire from anyone in Labour to have a hard border and so that will require a way out and having NI in the CU seems the only realistic proposal I have seen. Whether GB follows it will be another question

As to the tv program last night - not a great advertisement for the PLP was it? Ruth Cadbury was terrible and I cannot believe she Was solely responsible for her majority increase. How disconnected from their constituents are these people

The talked about the ‘Corbyn bubble’ but what bubble are they living in when they said the only could finds Tory voters?

The editing may have had a part to play but ythey didn’t really inspire much confidence to be honest!
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Re: Tuesday 21st November 2017

Post by citizenJA »

No 10: ECJ jurisdiction over EU nationals 'will end after Brexit transition' - Politics live
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/bl ... itics-live" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Apologies if it's been covered already, I've just logged on.
what is government doing
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Re: Tuesday 21st November 2017

Post by gilsey »

gilsey wrote:Did anyone else watch the Labour Summer documentary? I found it very amusing.
How dim is Stephen Kinnock? Can't we have his wife instead?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b ... everything" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Also, there's a clip of May skipping up to a lectern early in the campaign, looking genuinely cheerful. Don't think she's smiled like that since.
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Re: Tuesday 21st November 2017

Post by citizenJA »

gilsey wrote:
gilsey wrote:Did anyone else watch the Labour Summer documentary? I found it very amusing.
How dim is Stephen Kinnock? Can't we have his wife instead?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b ... everything" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Also, there's a clip of May skipping up to a lectern early in the campaign, looking genuinely cheerful. Don't think she's smiled like that since.
(cJA bold)
She's chosen her path
She's got nothing to smile about
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Re: Tuesday 21st November 2017

Post by HindleA »

Wren- Lewis worth reading if you haven't.Worth mentioning that the worst outcome was indeed confirmed in some areas.You can argue whether a function of Corbyn, particular MP,organisation or lack of or inevitable to some degree and relative effects for "success" or "failure"A Tory MP here was somewhat inevitable,to be fair regardless.Neighbouring areas took a hit but I would say the popularity of the MP's-widely different on Brexit and view of Corbyn did help in their return,
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Re: Tuesday 21st November 2017

Post by AnatolyKasparov »

It was a very interesting doc last night, yes some selective editing I suspect but certainly not as bad as it might have been.

Nice conclusion, which I broadly agree with.

All the featured 4 MPs showed that they had good as well as bad points, even Kinnock Jnr (who might actually be an OK person, its just that his politics are pretty awful)

I still think its a shame Champion had to leave the front bench, and she eloquently expressed how unpleasant many of us had found the previous 2 years.

Ah well........forward!
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Re: Tuesday 21st November 2017

Post by citizenJA »

I seem to remember that we were told that Brexit was about bringing sovereign powers back to the UK parliament – not to hand them over to Theresa May and the executive.
---
Under an archaic gentleman’s agreement called the Ponsonby rule that dates back to 1924, the government will be obliged only to lay the text of a new trade treaty before parliament for 21 sitting days before it passes into law automatically. No need for a debate. Certainly no need for a vote.

The government has confirmed that it wants to use this procedure to ratify future trade deals after we leave the EU, as provided for by the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010.

The only way for MPs to object to a trade agreement during the 21-day period is via an opposition day debate. Yet there is no need for the government to grant such a debate. In fact, the current government refused to schedule a single opposition day debate between February and September this year.

-Barry Gardiner
Labour MP - Brent North
Shadow secretary international trade, energy & climate change


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -executive" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
How big a deal is this?
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Re: Tuesday 21st November 2017

Post by HindleA »

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... plications" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Free schools: open schools and successful applications(updated)
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Re: Tuesday 21st November 2017

Post by HindleA »

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... de-for-las" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Guidance

School exclusion reviews data collection 2018: guide for LAs
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Re: Tuesday 21st November 2017

Post by HindleA »

Corporate report

ESFA framework document


Sets out the broad framework within which the Education and Skills Funding Agency will operate, and its relationship with the Department for Education
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... k-document" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
HindleA
Prime Minister
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Location: Three quarters way to hell

Re: Tuesday 21st November 2017

Post by HindleA »

@Cja

https://act.globaljustice.org.uk/call-t ... 1511183988" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;




PF PTO for message
Last edited by HindleA on Tue 21 Nov, 2017 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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