Tuesday 28th November 2017

Post by **refitman** » Tue 28 Nov, 2017 7:09 am

Morning all.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 28 Nov, 2017 7:16 am

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... y-benefits" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

We all know a false economy when we see it – why doesn’t our government?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 28 Nov, 2017 7:39 am

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... are_btn_tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Guardian view on women’s refuges: they’re life savers
Editorial

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -mandatory" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 28 Nov, 2017 8:26 am

Good morfternoon.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 28 Nov, 2017 9:09 am

Morning all.

How the heck can David Davis retain his job? This is just blatant lies.

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PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 28 Nov, 2017 9:37 am

Priti Patel condemns May's Brexit strategy and says EU should be told to 'sod off' over money - (Politics Live, Guardian)

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Tue 28 Nov, 2017 9:51 am

Brexit is UK's Vietnam as ‘no one wants to say it’s not going well’, says LSE Professor
‘Taking back control is a long war, fed by scapegoats for failure'

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 77621.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 28 Nov, 2017 10:07 am

PorFavor wrote:
Priti Patel condemns May's Brexit strategy and says EU should be told to 'sod off' over money - (Politics Live, Guardian)

Genuinely, thick as the proverbial pig's dung.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 28 Nov, 2017 10:28 am

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... xit-papers" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

keir-starmer-keeps-pressure-on-david-davis-over-edited-brexit-papers

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Tue 28 Nov, 2017 10:49 am

From David Allen Green's off-FT blog ( from tweet here yesterday)

“” (Something is said to be mandated from a general election if it is set out in the manifesto of a party which obtains an overall majority.)

3. Following from (2): (a) opposition MPs can vote against measures in the winning party’s manifesto, (b) no government is obliged to follow its own manifesto (and often does not), and (c) in certain circumstances, a government can abandon and reverse policies where there is a mandate without waiting for a general election.

(A classic illustration of (c) is the poll tax, for which a Conservative government had a detailed mandate from the 1987 general election. Few sensible people, if any, would have argued that the Tories were bound to keep this tax in 1990 because of “democracy” when it came to be seen widely as wrong in principle and unworkable in practice.)

4. Following from (2) and (3), mandates in UK politics are usually reversible, if they are followed at all.

http://jackofkent.com/2017/07/a-mandate ... -argument/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

All the media talk of the "so-called Islamic State" .

How about the so-called Will OF The People ?

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 28 Nov, 2017 10:51 am

Looking like Abi Wilkinson might be about to sue Tim "not nice but dim" Montgomerie, then. Anybody up for a bit of crowdfunding?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 28 Nov, 2017 10:58 am

Speaker grants Commons urgent question on Brexit impact reports

John Bercow, the speaker, has granted an urgent Commons question on the Brexit impact papers. It has been tabled by Sir Keir Starmer, the shadow Brexit secretary. (Politics Live, Guardian)

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 28 Nov, 2017 11:09 am

Parody account but still...

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Tue 28 Nov, 2017 11:32 am

Minnie rolfe‏
@Minnierolfe1

Flooded Lancashire #fracking site, a plea to @GregClarkMP, look at this next to the #fracking chemical spreadsheet and PLEASE put public and environmental safety first

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Tue 28 Nov, 2017 11:41 am

Seb Dance MEP‏Verified account
@SebDance

UK Government may be keeping MPs in the dark over Brexit but today MEPs from all 28 member states will hear from experts on impact of Brexit on the environment & public health. Watch live from 1.30pm UK/ 2.30pm CET

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Committee on the Environment, Public Health and Food Safety

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/ep-live/e ... ITTEE-ENVI" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Tue 28 Nov, 2017 11:46 am

David Davis could be in contempt of parliament over Brexit studies
Jacob Rees-Mogg among MPs calling for fuller disclosure of confidential reports into impact of leaving EU

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... are_btn_tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Tue 28 Nov, 2017 12:16 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:Parody account but still...

Sadly the Hannan account isn't a parody, unless being a parody of himself counts. Even by his standards, that one's a corker.

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Tue 28 Nov, 2017 12:24 pm

Morning.

And I see our descent continues to accelerate.

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Stagger Lee · Post by **Stagger Lee** » Tue 28 Nov, 2017 1:01 pm

Robin Walker taking at warp speed but getting absolutely destroyed from all parties

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 28 Nov, 2017 1:06 pm

https://www.local.gov.uk/about/news/lga ... -adaptions" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

LGA responds to Ageing Better report on home adaptions

https://www.ageing-better.org.uk/news/s ... y-of-life/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 28 Nov, 2017 1:11 pm

NonOxCol wrote:Morning.

And I see our descent continues to accelerate.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Immigration section of the Home Office is a bunch of sociopaths?

Who knew??

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 28 Nov, 2017 1:22 pm

Plaid Cymru’s Hywel Williams asks what guidelines were given to officials in terms of deciding what should be left out.

Walker says they left out information that was commercially confidential, or that might have undermined the UK’s negotiating stance.(Politics Live, Guardian - my emphasis)

So, potentially, most of it.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Tue 28 Nov, 2017 1:33 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Looking like Abi Wilkinson might be about to sue Tim "not nice but dim" Montgomerie, then. Anybody up for a bit of crowdfunding?

Nah. That is fantasy. Anything he said was fair comment based on what she tweeted.

I have no time for the Brexiteer Montgomery, but her original tweet, even in context, was dumb.

[The label nowadays is "honest opinion". Her original tweet was, put at its lowest, badly drafted. He didnt accuse her of being a Stalinist but of sloppy thinking. The claim that he is trying to silence her strikes me as implausible.]

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 28 Nov, 2017 1:34 pm

Kate Langston‏
@Kate_Langston
36m36 minutes ago
More
Replying to @Kate_Langston @Keir_Starmer
Bercow says MPs that they should raise issues of contempt by writing to him rather than rather than raising it in the Commons. Urges ministers to respond to @hilarybennmp's request for an urgent meeting to discuss committee access to full papers

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 28 Nov, 2017 1:41 pm

Jake James #FBPE‏
@MFIJake
27m27 minutes ago
More
Jake James #FBPE Retweeted Shadow Brexit Team
Speaker advises Starmer to write to him with his assertion that Davis is in contempt of parliament and that he will respond very quickly to such a letter. Speaker cannot pre-empt that letter but it looks like Davis is in deep and serious trouble.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 28 Nov, 2017 2:00 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/law/2017/no ... CMP=twt_gu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Unmarried woman wins legal battle over bereavement damages

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 28 Nov, 2017 2:06 pm

Today is the first anniversary of Paul Nuttall's (remember him?) election as UKIP leader.

Some of the HOTTEST TAKES from expert, in touch and above all WIDELY RESPECTED lobby journalists are being circulated again to mark the occasion.

Genuinely glorious

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 28 Nov, 2017 2:11 pm

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/h ... mg00000001" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Theresa May’s Extra £2billion For Affordable Homes Funded By Cuts To Other Housing Schemes

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 28 Nov, 2017 2:16 pm

http://www.savills.co.uk/research_artic ... 5/224869-0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Investing to solve the housing crisis

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Tue 28 Nov, 2017 2:18 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Today is the first anniversary of Paul Nuttall's (remember him?) election as UKIP leader.

Some of the HOTTEST TAKES from expert, in touch and above all WIDELY RESPECTED lobby journalists are being circulated again to mark the occasion.

Genuinely glorious

Such as this ?

Under its new leader Ukip could wipe out Labour

https://www.express.co.uk/comment/expre ... en-Pollard" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 28 Nov, 2017 2:18 pm

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org. ... out-brexit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Inquiring about Brexit
How select committees can provide effective scrutiny in 2017-19

IFG

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 28 Nov, 2017 2:22 pm

frog222 wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Today is the first anniversary of Paul Nuttall's (remember him?) election as UKIP leader.

Some of the HOTTEST TAKES from expert, in touch and above all WIDELY RESPECTED lobby journalists are being circulated again to mark the occasion.

Genuinely glorious
Such as this ?

Under its new leader Ukip could wipe out Labour

https://www.express.co.uk/comment/expre ... en-Pollard" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There are literally DOZENS of pieces along those lines

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Tue 28 Nov, 2017 2:25 pm

27 years since Thatcher.
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HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 28 Nov, 2017 2:27 pm

https://theconversation.com/why-a-block ... tterbutton" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Tue 28 Nov, 2017 2:29 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
NonOxCol wrote:Morning.

And I see our descent continues to accelerate.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Immigration section of the Home Office is a bunch of sociopaths?

Who knew??

Another example.
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Tue 28 Nov, 2017 2:58 pm

gilsey wrote:27 years since Thatcher.
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[youtube]Xu9Mv9zapAQ[/youtube]
(The Fletcher Memorial Home for Incurable Tyrants and Kings..Sadly(or not) Looks nothing like her)

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 28 Nov, 2017 3:05 pm

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Runners brave freezing temperatures at Antarctic Ice Marathon – video

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 28 Nov, 2017 3:11 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... ay-deepcut" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Fresh inquest to be held into death of Pte Geoff Gray at Deepcut
High court rules it is ‘in the interests of justice’ to grant family of soldier who died 16 years ago new inquest

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Tue 28 Nov, 2017 3:24 pm

David Allen Green‏
@davidallengreen

More David Allen Green Retweeted Steve Baker MP
And this is @SteveBakerHW's September 2017 letter to @MollyMEP saying that the analyses *did* exist:

http://mollymep.org.uk/wp-content/uploa ... .09.17.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Tue 28 Nov, 2017 4:09 pm

FarmingUK‏
@FarmingUK

British meat exports to EU set to fall by 90% in 'hard Brexit' scenario, report by meat industry warns https://www.farminguk.com/News/British- ... 48014.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 28 Nov, 2017 4:13 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:David Allen Green‏
@davidallengreen

More David Allen Green Retweeted Steve Baker MP
And this is @SteveBakerHW's September 2017 letter to @MollyMEP saying that the analyses *did* exist:

http://mollymep.org.uk/wp-content/uploa ... .09.17.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

It doesn't actually say that. It says they "conducted analyses".

As I pointed out in reply I regularly conduct analyses of things down the pub with my friends.

Is it possible that, worse than the redaction of the impact analyses, they never existed at all?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 28 Nov, 2017 4:20 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:David Allen Green‏
@davidallengreen

More David Allen Green Retweeted Steve Baker MP
And this is @SteveBakerHW's September 2017 letter to @MollyMEP saying that the analyses *did* exist:

http://mollymep.org.uk/wp-content/uploa ... .09.17.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …
It doesn't actually say that. It says they "conducted analyses".

As I pointed out in reply I regularly conduct analyses of things down the pub with my friends.

Is it possible that, worse than the redaction of the impact analyses, they never existed at all?

I reckon that's a tenable theory.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 28 Nov, 2017 4:26 pm

Ten local council byelections last week:

Stockton-on-Tees - Labour hold with over half the vote in a ward which has always returned 2 councillors for them since the present boundaries came into operation in 2005. This marked a small swing to them since a previous byelection here last year and a slightly bigger one since the last regular elections in 2015, Labour increased their share by 9 points since then. Tories up a bit since then but slightly down on last year, whilst an Independent candidate got 12% - little changed on two years ago (they sat the 2016 contest out) LibDems last with 3%, roughly halved on the previous two occasions (though unlike some other areas here, this has never been good territory for them)

Wakefield - Labour hold with almost exactly half the vote, almost unchanged on last year. Which meant there was a swing to the Tories as they made a double figure increase to over 40% in a ward where they won all 3 seats back in the 2004 all-out elections, and then won every year up to and including 2011 - since when Labour has won every time. UKIP polled well in 2015 but haven't been seen since, and last year Greens stood (as in every election since 2007) but absented themselves now - however there was a new entrant on the scene in the form of the regionalist Yorkshire party, who managed some 7%, well ahead of the last placed LibDems (down two thirds on their 2016 share)

Dover DC - Tory hold by roughly 70-30 in a straight fight with Labour in a ward which has always safely returned two councillors for them since 2003, this is in line with most results since then (a tiny swing to Labour since a previous 2 way fight in 2011) but a swing to the Tories since 2015 due to their picking up the lion's share of the very respectable UKIP vote then - over a quarter of the vote. Independents and LibDems have fought this ward in the past, but to little avail - it is a genuine Tory bastion.

Cotswold DC - another Tory stronghold up, and they duly held it with some 65% of the vote - 2015 was the first election on these boundaries, but the similar previous ward quite often saw the Tories returned unopposed. Last time saw them beat the LibDems in a straight fight by around 70-30 so at least that was avoided, and this time saw further electoral competition (always welcome in these rural wards) as Labour intervened and scored 14% - taking almost identical amounts of the previous two's support.

Leicester - Labour hold with over half the vote, a 10 point increase on 2 years ago. This ward voted in 2 LibDems in the 2003 elections, but their minority administration crashed to defeat in 2007 and Labour cleaned up here and won both seats in 2011 and 2015 also. LibDem decline led to the populist right gaining - BNP were neck and neck with the Tories for second in 2007 and UKIP came a clear second in their first electoral outing here last time round. However their absence now helped the LibDems to make a comeback after coming a poor 4th then, with an increase of over 20 points to 30% and second. Tories have always polled respectively here but never really threatened, and were almost unchanged this time.

Neath/Port Talbot - Plaid Cymru hold with almost half the vote, a small increase since this May. Once a safe Labour ward, Plaid broke through here in their "golden year" (at both council and Assembly level) of 1999, and unlike in other places they maintained their grip, taking both seats in 2004 and 2008 - Labour took back a seat in 2012 before losing it again earlier this year; they advanced a bit this time but are still some way short of their 2012 levels. Tories on almost exactly 10%, significantly down on May and not far ahead of the LibDems who improved their standing. Lastly, UKIP contested this ward for the first time - a very commonplace event in the 2012-16 period, much less so now; a 3% score was much more in line with recent practice though.

Herefordshire - Green gain from Tory on a colossal swing of 27%, continuing a generally bad Tory run in byelections on this authority that goes back a few years now - the first election on these (radically changed) boundaries in 2015 had seen the Tories beat the Greens by almost 70-30 in a two way contest, but despite more competition this time a Green advance to 45% was more than enough to pull off an impressive victory. Two others tried their luck this time - LibDems weren't far behind the Tories with almost a quarter of the vote but Labour scored less than 2%, their lowest share anywhere for some time.

Stroud DC - Tory hold with 45% of the vote - an impressive increase on last year's all out elections (when they were run close by the Greens, with Labour not far behind either) They may have been helped by their being no UKIP candidate this time, but also the fact that 2016 saw significant vote splitting - this result is much more in line with previous contests in this ward (which was very little altered in the previous year's boundary changes) Labour's vote held up much better than the Greens this time, and this helped them move into second place as the Greens dropped by some 8 points. LibDems have won here in the past but their last significant showing was running Labour close for 2nd in the previous 2002 all-out polls, and they got less than 9% now.

Perth and Kinross - Tory hold, despite being narrowly beaten on first preferences by the SNP (whose relative transfer unfriendliness is becoming quite noticeable now) in a division that split 2Nat/1C/1LD earlier this year. Both the Tories and SNP advanced this time to over 30% whilst the LibDems - who topped the poll 6 months ago, they have a large personal vote for a single councillor here - fell slightly under; they also took 2 seats here back in 2007 before losing it to Labour in 2012, which meant this four member ward was represented by 4 different parties until May. Labour never polled very strongly on first preferences here, owing their previous seat to transfers and got less than 6% now - little changed from before. Greens down to less than 2%, Independent last with a derisory 0.5%.

South Lanarkshire - Labour hold in a division which split 1Nat/1Lab/1C in May after going 2Lab/1Nat in both 2007 and 2012 - as those splits suggest the SNP moved into pole position this year in a division that had previously favoured the reds. Any thoughts of an SNP gain this time were quashed, however, as a swing of around 10% since earlier this year meant Labour easily topping the poll with close to 40% of first preferences whilst the Nats had a double figure drop. LibDems had some previous activity in these parts, and they nearly doubled their score to 18% - well ahead of the Tories who also dropped back significantly. Greens slightly down, whilst another first time UKIP candidature in this batch of vacancies recieved even less reward than in Wales - less than 1%.

Things quieten down a bit this week, with four contests.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 28 Nov, 2017 4:44 pm

https://www.newstatesman.com/print/node/311502" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Bemoaning the cost of national debt is missing the point – we must invest in the economy

Wren-Lewis

http://stumblingandmumbling.typepad.com ... shism.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Tue 28 Nov, 2017 5:12 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:David Allen Green‏
@davidallengreen

More David Allen Green Retweeted Steve Baker MP
And this is @SteveBakerHW's September 2017 letter to @MollyMEP saying that the analyses *did* exist:

http://mollymep.org.uk/wp-content/uploa ... .09.17.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …
It doesn't actually say that. It says they "conducted analyses".

As I pointed out in reply I regularly conduct analyses of things down the pub with my friends.

Is it possible that, worse than the redaction of the impact analyses, they never existed at all?

Jo Maugham QC‏Verified account
@JolyonMaugham

In which @WalkerWorcester claims to have read documents which don't exist. THREAD

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Tue 28 Nov, 2017 5:18 pm

Theresa May 'Rigging Parliament' With New Emergency Move To Curb Changes To Budget 2017
New 'power grab' claim as PM tries to protect slim majority

The change emerged on Monday - just as the media’s focus was on the Royal engagement - on the Commons Order Paper

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/m ... ef11284017" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 28 Nov, 2017 6:03 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:Theresa May 'Rigging Parliament' With New Emergency Move To Curb Changes To Budget 2017
New 'power grab' claim as PM tries to protect slim majority

The change emerged on Monday - just as the media’s focus was on the Royal engagement - on the Commons Order Paper

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/m ... ef11284017" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

How "straight after [a General Election]" is straight after? For example, how soon after the election did (eg) Gordon Brown employ this tactic? I can't seem to be able to establish this.

Edited - typo

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Tue 28 Nov, 2017 6:15 pm

Ever since Thatcher took power, the UK has focused on minimising public expenditure (particularly on the public good) regardless of anything else.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 28 Nov, 2017 6:43 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-be ... s-42138909" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HMP Woodhill 'barely fit for purpose', IMB report says

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 28 Nov, 2017 6:57 pm

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/s ... -communist" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PTO