Tuesday 5th December 2017

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 05 Dec, 2017 1:31 pm

Richard Graham, a Conservative, says this UQ is badly timed.

John Bercow, intervenes. He is taking this personally. It is not for Graham to question the judgment of the chair, he says. (It was Bercow who authorised the UQ.)

MP for down near mine and Anatoly's old manors.

Labour did well there last time, considering all the aerospace round there.

If the Tories look like pissing away jobs with a very Hard Brexit, Mr Graham could be in trouble.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 05 Dec, 2017 1:41 pm

Ah, Davis went on to say clear the referendum meant leaving the customs union.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Tue 05 Dec, 2017 1:51 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:What McDonnell (and Corbyn) have said that is that talking about staying in the Single Market is unhelpful because it sounds like you're planning to stay in the EU. Because then people say you have to retain all the four freedoms etc. etc.

"Unhelpful"

The real fight starts now.

No doubt.

Pitiful stuff.

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Tue 05 Dec, 2017 2:03 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/bl ... 06cb81b308" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Tory Brexiter Peter Bone asks Davis to confirm that it is government policy to leave the EU on 29 March 2019.

Davis says it is not just government policy, it is EU law.

I don't think that's right, it's only definitely fixed in the event of no deal being reached, by the deadline.
A different exit date could be agreed?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 05 Dec, 2017 2:11 pm

tinybgoat wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/politics/bl ... 06cb81b308
The Tory Brexiter Peter Bone asks Davis to confirm that it is government policy to leave the EU on 29 March 2019.

Davis says it is not just government policy, it is EU law.
I don't think that's right, it's only definitely fixed in the event of no deal being reached, by the deadline.
A different exit date could be agreed?

Yes, Davis is wrong.
It's not 'EU law'.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 05 Dec, 2017 2:24 pm

Labour Manifesto
https://labour.org.uk/manifesto/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://labour.org.uk/issue/negotiating-brexit/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://labour.org.uk/manifesto/negotia ... xit/#first" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://labour.org.uk/manifesto/negotia ... it/#second" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://labour.org.uk/manifesto/negotia ... xit/#third" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 05 Dec, 2017 2:36 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:What McDonnell (and Corbyn) have said that is that talking about staying in the Single Market is unhelpful because it sounds like you're planning to stay in the EU. Because then people say you have to retain all the four freedoms etc. etc.

"Unhelpful"

The real fight starts now.

No doubt.

Pitiful stuff.

You're almost as embarrassing as Marina Hyde today.

Truth is that Labour have played a horrendously unpromising card brilliantly. The evidence is all around us.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 05 Dec, 2017 2:41 pm

#Danny Shaw

r"Bob Quick, has demanded that the First Secretary of State, Damian Green, withdraw allegations about him or face the possibility of legal action."

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 05 Dec, 2017 2:42 pm

UC debate on now for those interested.

http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Guide" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 05 Dec, 2017 2:47 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:What McDonnell (and Corbyn) have said that is that talking about staying in the Single Market is unhelpful because it sounds like you're planning to stay in the EU. Because then people say you have to retain all the four freedoms etc. etc.

"Unhelpful"

The real fight starts now.

No doubt.

Pitiful stuff.
You're almost as embarrassing as Marina Hyde today.

Truth is that Labour have played a horrendously unpromising card brilliantly. The evidence is all around us.

Jo Maugham QC‏Verified account
@JolyonMaugham
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Jo Maugham QC Retweeted Faisal Islam
Hard not to admire @Keir_Starmer's political acuity. It may yet deliver for both Labour and the country.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 05 Dec, 2017 2:49 pm

I'm not sure "may yet deliver" is a huge endorsement.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 05 Dec, 2017 2:49 pm

Re assessment reviews,ICO ordered to be released.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 05 Dec, 2017 2:52 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:I'm not sure "may yet deliver" is a huge endorsement.

Perhaps not but he's showing himself to be more open to alternative approaches than some other Remainers!

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Tue 05 Dec, 2017 2:54 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:What McDonnell (and Corbyn) have said that is that talking about staying in the Single Market is unhelpful because it sounds like you're planning to stay in the EU. Because then people say you have to retain all the four freedoms etc. etc.

"Unhelpful"

The real fight starts now.

No doubt.

Pitiful stuff.
You're almost as embarrassing as Marina Hyde today.

Truth is that Labour have played a horrendously unpromising card brilliantly. The evidence is all around us.

How do you make that out?

Which votes has Labour won?

How has Labour made the case for staying in the single market? The customs union? A second referendum?

How has Labour persuaded Tory Remainers to side with them?

How has Labour FOUGHT to try and stop the people it represents becoming much poorer?

Oh I see. You don't mean any of those things. Not actual opposition. But politics as a game or sport.

I suppose if you see politics as like football, then yes adopting a fractionally more Remain-y position than the Tories is Labour's electoral sweet spot. Remainers feel they have nowhere else to go, and Labour doesn't lose any of its Lexiteers because they have Corbyn and McDonnell in charge.

Unfortunately, something that really matters is going on while Labour plays around.

I agree wholeheartedly with Marina Hyde. The claim by some that Corbyn and McDonnell wer just about, any second now, going to actually oppose any of this unfolding disaster has proven, again, to be utterly empty. Seumas was never going to do that.

Keeping his head down on Brexit has worked very well for Corbyn. But then he doesn't actually oppose Brexit. For the rest of us, it is a tragedy.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 05 Dec, 2017 3:01 pm

Heidi Allen going with the "old information,much improved since.Others with the usual,it doesn't matter that people die before getting a tad support after decades of contributions getting people back to work stuff.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 05 Dec, 2017 3:02 pm

[youtube]MSVTOMkJdqs[/youtube]

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 05 Dec, 2017 3:04 pm

HindleA wrote:Heidi Allen going with the "old information,much improved since.Others with the usual,it doesn't matter that people die before getting a tad support after decades of contributions getting people back to work stuff.

Remember her Tweet to me?

Is it time to go back and give her a hard time?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 05 Dec, 2017 3:17 pm

How do you know what improvements have been made if you haven't got full information of what problems/ issues were flagged up and extent of.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Tue 05 Dec, 2017 3:30 pm

Good afternoon

As some have predicted Ireland is becoming the straw that broke the camel's back (or is breaking it)

It seems fairly easy to see the problem the UK have got at the moment - they want the same words to mean the same thing to different people and for that ambiguity to allow them to put off the inevitable - that to get anything like the 'regulatory alignment' they want will require them to make some really painful concessions

The Irish understand this and do not want this ambiguity to hold - I think they want the UK to admit that this is the case now, whilst they have the veto. May would have got away with it if Ireland had played along with the game but they didn't - all I support them in doing so.

The Tories are untrustworthy and so no-one should allow them to obfuscate

How they now manage to get the agreement from Ireland (who want the words to mean one thing) and the DUP (who want them to mean another) is anyone's guess. It just doesn't seem possible. From what Dodds said it seems he wants the words removed from the draft deal and I think the Irish will just say 'No, No, No'

As to the Labour position - a couple of points

The aim is to get the UK electorate to change their minds on Brexit (including those who just want to get on with it) and that needs Something to provide a 'burning bridge' - Ireland may be that subject. You can see Starmer moving that way a bit further today with his comments on the SM and CU

I would add one caveat though - if we stay in the CU and the SM as is proposed by a significant number of people (and may be the only way to solve the Irish border) then it leads to the political problem Gardiner referred to recently - we will be in the SM/CU (in a much closer relationship than any other non-EU member) and be paying lot for the privilege but at the same time having absolutely no say in the rule making.

Personally I do not think that is politically sustainable and that if Labour decide to move towards that option then I think we would have to look at working on how to stop Brexit completely.

And I would just like to ask where the idea is that Corbyn supports Brexit comes from - he has said multiple times he voted Remain and he compaigned for Remain - are you saying he blatantly lied? If the evidence is the fact that he historically opposed EU membership then that is really weak and is probably indicative of the level of capability of the person making the claim

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 05 Dec, 2017 3:35 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:I'm not sure "may yet deliver" is a huge endorsement.
Perhaps not but he's showing himself to be more open to alternative approaches than some other Remainers!

It's the openness to Hard Brexit that worries me.

I blow hot and cold on this, as you all know. I think the UK very close to being kicked out of the process this week. Nearly all the government's fault, of course, but it's not government in waiting stuff either.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Tue 05 Dec, 2017 3:41 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:I'm not sure "may yet deliver" is a huge endorsement.
Perhaps not but he's showing himself to be more open to alternative approaches than some other Remainers!
It's the openness to Hard Brexit that worries me.

I blow hot and cold on this, as you all know. I think the UK very close to being kicked out of the process this week. Nearly all the government's fault, of course, but it's not government in waiting stuff either.

Personally I see very little that Labour would go down a Hrd Brexit route - they are still seeming to sit on the fence but the fact that they are doing so suggests to me that they are moving inextricably towards a soft Brexit

I see it as very unklikely that Labour would endorse a solution that would lead to hard border in Ireland and severe damage to the economy.

To get the Brexit they want (or stay in even) they would need the <Government to fall and that would not be accomplished by making any statements that could be used by the Tories or their friends in the press to deflect blame away from the Government

You and others may want some big statements but to me it makes no sense when the only way for them to matter is to allow the Government to fall - I think it is closer to collapsing now than it has been since the election

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 05 Dec, 2017 3:41 pm

https://mainlymacro.blogspot.co.uk/2017 ... sible.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Government debt phobias, and possible cures

Wren-Lewis

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 05 Dec, 2017 3:46 pm

Gibraltar will be next...

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 05 Dec, 2017 3:46 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... ng-council" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Overhaul of corporate code backtracks on May's pledge to workers

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Tue 05 Dec, 2017 3:49 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:Gibraltar will be next...

and we all have forgotten that - may be less politically fraught to give a bespoke agreement but that in itself may open up a can of worms

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 05 Dec, 2017 3:53 pm

https://www.mind.org.uk/news-campaigns/ ... ibArHqnxpV" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mind to intervene in disability discrimination case about PIP regulations(More info)

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 05 Dec, 2017 4:01 pm

HSOM, clearly Labour are less Hard Brexity than the Tories, and I'd much rather have them negotiating. I did though fear that falling out of the process now, possibly with May making a virtue of it, could be absolutely terminal. So I wanted to see more from Labour to put pressure on.

But to my surprise, the Tories have got much more serious, and we're still in there. So maybe Labour judged that right after all!

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Tue 05 Dec, 2017 4:44 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:HSOM, clearly Labour are less Hard Brexity than the Tories, and I'd much rather have them negotiating. I did though fear that falling out of the process now, possibly with May making a virtue of it, could be absolutely terminal. So I wanted to see more from Labour to put pressure on.

But to my surprise, the Tories have got much more serious, and we're still in there. So maybe Labour judged that right after all!

It is a difficult task for an Oppositionto play this right as they have no direct inf’uence On the progress

Also impossible to please anyone. When Labour Front Bench did lead a charge against the Government the right wing complained they were putting off potential Tory Defectors (a laughable and pathetic bunch of windbags in the main)

Let the Tories pull themselves apart

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 05 Dec, 2017 4:47 pm

Reports to the DWP Select Committee."Confidential,redacted basis"

http://press.labour.org.uk/post/1682239 ... rnment-has" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 05 Dec, 2017 5:02 pm

Away from Brexit, there was some good news for English education where pupil's reading has improved. So who take the credit?

Why, Nick Gibb reckons it's all down to the phonics check! And look who agrees...

PTE‏
@PTE_Campaign
7h7 hours ago
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Replying to @PTE_Campaign
The correlation between PIRLS results and the phonics check is 0.52, and phonics is the most accurate predictor of PIRLS performance. It is not a coincidence that England’s best ever result in PIRLS came with the first cohort that had done the phonics check.

but

G Heller Sahlgren‏
@ghellersahlgren
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England's PIRLS scores improved by 13 points between 2006 and 2011 and 7 points between 2011 and 2016. To draw the conclusion that the Conservatives' curriculum reforms are behind the latest improvement is bonkers.

He's the guy involved with education think tank Centre for Education Economics (used to be about market reform in education i.e. more private stuff)

And correlation of 0.52? Even I know that's not that great.

Bonnylad · Post by **Bonnylad** » Tue 05 Dec, 2017 5:07 pm

Jessica Elgot
✔
@jessicaelgot

MPs and peers coming out of the Brexit impact papers reading room today really agitated... "completely ridiculous..." "nothing new..." "patronising"

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 05 Dec, 2017 5:22 pm

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 05 Dec, 2017 5:47 pm

Those "in excruciating detail" impact assessments...

Jessica Elgot‏Verified account
@jessicaelgot
4m4 minutes ago
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Replying to @jessicaelgot
Labour MP says all the information in Brexit impact analysis is stuff sourced to select committee hearings and press releases...

Jessica Elgot‏Verified account
@jessicaelgot
8m8 minutes ago
More
Replying to @jessicaelgot
One senior peer: "You can't call it a Brexit impact assessment because it makes no assessment of the impact."

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 05 Dec, 2017 6:01 pm

And this is correct. No wonder they didn't want them released if that's all they were.

David Allen Green‏
@davidallengreen
2m2 minutes ago
More David Allen Green Retweeted Jessica Elgot
And, if true, this *destroys* the line of the government and its supporters that the information was "commercially confidential".

If public domain information, then cannot have the quality of confidence.

The excuse was false, all along.

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Tue 05 Dec, 2017 6:11 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -his-shell" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Crace -- now to read !!

Addition ---

... along with Tories Anna Soubry and Antoinette Sandbach . One after the other, they begged the Brexit secretary to do the sensible thing.

Davis shook his head. The British people had voted to leave the single market and the customs union and that was that. Oh no they hadn’t, Luciana Berger and others pointed out. Oh yes they had, David huffed, throwing his papers on to the dispatch box in a fit of pique. And if the country wanted to be worse off, then it was his sacred duty to deliver on their wishes.

Even this wasn’t enough to reassure the hardline Tory Brexiters who repeatedly reminded Davis that no deal was far better than agreeing to one the EU found acceptable. The only good EU was a dead EU.

Bonnylad · Post by **Bonnylad** » Tue 05 Dec, 2017 6:12 pm

'Arlene' by the wonderful Handsome Family- " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 05 Dec, 2017 6:20 pm

Sounds like they might as well close DEXEU down.

May took her main man (Ollie Robbins) out of there a while ago.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 05 Dec, 2017 6:20 pm

Bonnylad wrote:'Arlene' by the wonderful Handsome Family- " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Interesting lyrics.

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Tue 05 Dec, 2017 6:24 pm

Hi.

Amazes me how people can be so exercised by the failings of Corbyn and Starmer when patronising Teflon gufflords like this have a platform which inexplicably goes unquestioned:

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Bonnylad · Post by **Bonnylad** » Tue 05 Dec, 2017 6:24 pm

PorFavor wrote:
Bonnylad wrote:'Arlene' by the wonderful Handsome Family- " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Interesting lyrics.

Yes-kidnap,rape and necrophilia! What more could you want in a song:)

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 05 Dec, 2017 6:31 pm

'We can't go on like this': mood of resignation in EU as Brexit talks stutter

Theresa May is ‘afraid of her own shadow’, her government is weak and Brexit is proving ‘nonsense’, observers say (Guardian)

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ks-stutter

55DegreesNorth · Post by **55DegreesNorth** » Tue 05 Dec, 2017 7:14 pm

Bonnylad wrote:'Arlene' by the wonderful Handsome Family- " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Evening folks,
These are playing at the Sage, Heed early in the new year. You’ve just reminded me to get a ticket.
Cheers.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 05 Dec, 2017 7:19 pm

EU blacklist names 17 tax havens and puts Caymans and Jersey on notice
The EU has named and shamed 17 states in publishing the bloc’s first ever tax haven blacklist and put a further 47 states on notice, including four British overseas territories and crown dependencies, in a move designed to crack down on the estimated £506bn lost to aggressive avoidance every year.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... -on-notice" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 05 Dec, 2017 7:28 pm

Security arrangements for reading the extensive impact documents...

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 05 Dec, 2017 7:29 pm

Christine Keeler, former model at heart of Profumo affair, dies at 75

Showgirl’s affairs with Russian diplomat and British MP John Profumo caused one of UK’s biggest scandals of 20th century (Guardian)

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... ffair-dies

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 05 Dec, 2017 7:37 pm

sorry to read Keeler is gone

Bonnylad · Post by **Bonnylad** » Tue 05 Dec, 2017 7:41 pm

55DegreesNorth wrote:
Bonnylad wrote:'Arlene' by the wonderful Handsome Family- " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Evening folks,
These are playing at the Sage, Heed early in the new year. You’ve just reminded me to get a ticket.
Cheers.

Seen them 6 times now-glad they aren't playing Gateshead Old Town Hall again-those seats aren't any fun for someone with a prolapsed disc/sciatica:)

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 05 Dec, 2017 8:30 pm

Ed Miliband‏Verified account @Ed_Miliband
What an absolutely ludicrous, incompetent, absurd, make it up as you go along, couldn’t run a piss up in a brewery bunch of jokers there are running the government at the most critical time in a generation for the country.
12:23 AM - 5 Dec 2017
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Bonnylad · Post by **Bonnylad** » Tue 05 Dec, 2017 9:07 pm

https://www.channel4.com/news/owen-pate ... le-demands" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Tue 05 Dec, 2017 9:12 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
HindleA wrote:Heidi Allen going with the "old information,much improved since.Others with the usual,it doesn't matter that people die before getting a tad support after decades of contributions getting people back to work stuff.
Remember her Tweet to me?

Is it time to go back and give her a hard time?

...and yet here she is crying about hungry children

MPs reduced to tears by story of Dad who said it was his 'lucky week' after his family was invited to eat leftover funeral food
Frank Field shared the harrowing story of a local family whose young son was so hungry he chose a lunch pack over toys.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/m ... r_facebook" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A good actress, or woman finally seeing what the government she is part of is really about ? Time will tell but for me it's not on her side