Wednesday 6th December 2017

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Tubby Isaacs
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Re: Wednesday 6th December 2017

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

I'm almost prepared to let Davis and the DUP off because of the catastrophic effect of talks breaking down and Hard Brexit. They're doing a decent distraction job from this.

Come on, somebody.
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RogerOThornhill
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Re: Wednesday 6th December 2017

Post by RogerOThornhill »

Faisal Islam‏Verified account
@faisalislam
3h3 hours ago
More
“There were no 58 sectoral impact assessments” says the PM today... but Davis said she had read some of them in October...?
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tinyclanger2
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Re: Wednesday 6th December 2017

Post by tinyclanger2 »

Unlike DD, the Nuffield Trust have looked at the implications of Brexit for the NHS in at least some detail:
news item:
http://www.nhsconfed.org/news/2017/12/h ... of-the-nhs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

report itself:
https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/files/ ... it-web.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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tinyclanger2
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Re: Wednesday 6th December 2017

Post by tinyclanger2 »

RogerOThornhill wrote:
More
Philip Hammond says Cabinet has not formally agreed a Brexit "end state" for the UK.
He told the Treasury Select Committee: "We haven't had a specific mandating of an end state position."
:lol:

Who on earth goes into negotiations without knowing what they're trying to aim for at the end?
"Britain"
Unfortunately.
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AnatolyKasparov
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Re: Wednesday 6th December 2017

Post by AnatolyKasparov »

Tubby Isaacs wrote:I'm almost prepared to let Davis and the DUP off because of the catastrophic effect of talks breaking down and Hard Brexit. They're doing a decent distraction job from this.

Come on, somebody.
Thought you said just yesterday that "no deal" was now unlikely? :?:
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PorFavor
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Re: Wednesday 6th December 2017

Post by PorFavor »

No 10 dismisses Hammond's claim that UK will pay 'Brexit bill' even without trade deal

This is what Philip Hammond, the chancellor, told the Treasury committee about the UK’s “Brexit bill” payments not being conditional on the UK getting a trade deal.

Asked if the exit payments would be conditional on there being a future trade deal, he replied:

Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed in this negotiation. But I find it inconceivable that we as a nation would be walking away from an obligation that we recognised as an obligation. That’s just not a credible scenario. That’s not the kind of country we are. And frankly it would not make us a credible partner for future international agreements.

He said there would be arguments about what the UK did actually owe, and that in some areas there would be doubt as to whether the UK did have a legal obligation. But he went on:

And we will fight our corner vigorously where there is any scope for debate.

But where it is clear that we have entered into an obligation, we will meet that obligation.

This is anathema to the Tory Brexiters, who insist the UK should only pay money to Brussels if it gets a free trade deal.

And at the afternoon lobby briefing Number 10 sided with the Brexiters. (Politics Live, Guardian - my emphasis)
PorFavor
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Re: Wednesday 6th December 2017

Post by PorFavor »

[youtube]qf8WmBH69yk[/youtube]
AnatolyKasparov
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Re: Wednesday 6th December 2017

Post by AnatolyKasparov »

PorFavor wrote:
No 10 dismisses Hammond's claim that UK will pay 'Brexit bill' even without trade deal

This is what Philip Hammond, the chancellor, told the Treasury committee about the UK’s “Brexit bill” payments not being conditional on the UK getting a trade deal.

Asked if the exit payments would be conditional on there being a future trade deal, he replied:

Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed in this negotiation. But I find it inconceivable that we as a nation would be walking away from an obligation that we recognised as an obligation. That’s just not a credible scenario. That’s not the kind of country we are. And frankly it would not make us a credible partner for future international agreements.

He said there would be arguments about what the UK did actually owe, and that in some areas there would be doubt as to whether the UK did have a legal obligation. But he went on:

And we will fight our corner vigorously where there is any scope for debate.

But where it is clear that we have entered into an obligation, we will meet that obligation.

This is anathema to the Tory Brexiters, who insist the UK should only pay money to Brussels if it gets a free trade deal.

And at the afternoon lobby briefing Number 10 sided with the Brexiters. (Politics Live, Guardian - my emphasis)
Even if true, empty pish.
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gilsey
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Re: Wednesday 6th December 2017

Post by gilsey »

Half-Time in The Brexit Negotiations: The Voters’ Scorecard
John Curtice, Senior Research Fellow at NatCen and Professor of Politics at Strathclyde University

The conclusion is interesting, and not in a good way.
Rather than coming to the conclusion that the progress of the Brexit process so far means they came to the wrong decision about the EU, it seems that Leave voters are inclined to the view
that those responsible for the process – including the EU as well as the UK government – are (from their perspective) failing to make progress towards the kind of future arrangement that they
would largely still like to see. In short, they blame the actors in the Brexit process not the act of leaving itself. If the talks about Brexit continue to be difficult and if the economy does indeed
begin to suffer, we should not presume that voters in Britain will change their minds about the merits of Brexit. Rather they may simply blame politicians - on both sides of the channel – for their
apparent failure to deliver what those who voted for Leave have all along said they want.
To put it more simply, perhaps we have the govt we deserve.
One world, like it or not - John Martyn
Tubby Isaacs
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Re: Wednesday 6th December 2017

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:I'm almost prepared to let Davis and the DUP off because of the catastrophic effect of talks breaking down and Hard Brexit. They're doing a decent distraction job from this.

Come on, somebody.
Thought you said just yesterday that "no deal" was now unlikely? :?:
I did, but that can change, and people who want a deal need to concentrate on it. I'd like David Davis "parked" with some kind of investigation.

I don't think there are that many Kipper-Tories (how often do you see IDS or Rees Mogg or even Lawson?) but they can still be an immense nuisance.

Image
Tubby Isaacs
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Re: Wednesday 6th December 2017

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

PorFavor wrote:
No 10 dismisses Hammond's claim that UK will pay 'Brexit bill' even without trade deal

This is what Philip Hammond, the chancellor, told the Treasury committee about the UK’s “Brexit bill” payments not being conditional on the UK getting a trade deal.

Asked if the exit payments would be conditional on there being a future trade deal, he replied:

Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed in this negotiation. But I find it inconceivable that we as a nation would be walking away from an obligation that we recognised as an obligation. That’s just not a credible scenario. That’s not the kind of country we are. And frankly it would not make us a credible partner for future international agreements.

He said there would be arguments about what the UK did actually owe, and that in some areas there would be doubt as to whether the UK did have a legal obligation. But he went on:

And we will fight our corner vigorously where there is any scope for debate.

But where it is clear that we have entered into an obligation, we will meet that obligation.

This is anathema to the Tory Brexiters, who insist the UK should only pay money to Brussels if it gets a free trade deal.

And at the afternoon lobby briefing Number 10 sided with the Brexiters. (Politics Live, Guardian - my emphasis)
I'm not getting this. I thought the whole £50bn was stuff we were obliged to pay.
AnatolyKasparov
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Re: Wednesday 6th December 2017

Post by AnatolyKasparov »

gilsey wrote:Half-Time in The Brexit Negotiations: The Voters’ Scorecard
John Curtice, Senior Research Fellow at NatCen and Professor of Politics at Strathclyde University

The conclusion is interesting, and not in a good way.
Rather than coming to the conclusion that the progress of the Brexit process so far means they came to the wrong decision about the EU, it seems that Leave voters are inclined to the view
that those responsible for the process – including the EU as well as the UK government – are (from their perspective) failing to make progress towards the kind of future arrangement that they
would largely still like to see. In short, they blame the actors in the Brexit process not the act of leaving itself. If the talks about Brexit continue to be difficult and if the economy does indeed
begin to suffer, we should not presume that voters in Britain will change their minds about the merits of Brexit. Rather they may simply blame politicians - on both sides of the channel – for their
apparent failure to deliver what those who voted for Leave have all along said they want.
To put it more simply, perhaps we have the govt we deserve.
As long as enough of them blame the present government for not getting the Brexit they "wanted", that is something that can be lived with.
"IS TONTY BLAIR BEHIND THIS???!!!!111???!!!"
frog222
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Re: Wednesday 6th December 2017

Post by frog222 »

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
PorFavor wrote:
No 10 dismisses Hammond's claim that UK will pay 'Brexit bill' even without trade deal

This is what Philip Hammond, the chancellor, told the Treasury committee about the UK’s “Brexit bill” payments not being conditional on the UK getting a trade deal.

Asked if the exit payments would be conditional on there being a future trade deal, he replied:

Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed in this negotiation. But I find it inconceivable that we as a nation would be walking away from an obligation that we recognised as an obligation. That’s just not a credible scenario. That’s not the kind of country we are. And frankly it would not make us a credible partner for future international agreements.

He said there would be arguments about what the UK did actually owe, and that in some areas there would be doubt as to whether the UK did have a legal obligation. But he went on:

And we will fight our corner vigorously where there is any scope for debate.

But where it is clear that we have entered into an obligation, we will meet that obligation.

This is anathema to the Tory Brexiters, who insist the UK should only pay money to Brussels if it gets a free trade deal.

And at the afternoon lobby briefing Number 10 sided with the Brexiters. (Politics Live, Guardian - my emphasis)
I'm not getting this. I thought the whole £50bn was stuff we were obliged to pay.
I'm sure May said "Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed in this negotiation" at PMQ's ??

Which surely implies that she's joined the Go Whistle gang if there's no deal ...
Tubby Isaacs
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Re: Wednesday 6th December 2017

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

They've said that before, then said they're honouring commitments.

Are they throwing these smokescreens up deliberately?
AnatolyKasparov
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Re: Wednesday 6th December 2017

Post by AnatolyKasparov »

Tubby Isaacs wrote:They've said that before, then said they're honouring commitments.

Are they throwing these smokescreens up deliberately?
Well, what do you think? Three guesses ;)
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PorFavor
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Re: Wednesday 6th December 2017

Post by PorFavor »

frog22s said
I'm sure May said "Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed in this negotiation" at PMQ's ??

Which surely implies that she's joined the Go Whistle gang if there's no deal ...

Yes - she did say that.




Edited to tidy up
PorFavor
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Re: Wednesday 6th December 2017

Post by PorFavor »

gilsey wrote:Half-Time in The Brexit Negotiations: The Voters’ Scorecard
John Curtice, Senior Research Fellow at NatCen and Professor of Politics at Strathclyde University

The conclusion is interesting, and not in a good way.
Rather than coming to the conclusion that the progress of the Brexit process so far means they came to the wrong decision about the EU, it seems that Leave voters are inclined to the view
that those responsible for the process – including the EU as well as the UK government – are (from their perspective) failing to make progress towards the kind of future arrangement that they
would largely still like to see. In short, they blame the actors in the Brexit process not the act of leaving itself. If the talks about Brexit continue to be difficult and if the economy does indeed
begin to suffer, we should not presume that voters in Britain will change their minds about the merits of Brexit. Rather they may simply blame politicians - on both sides of the channel – for their
apparent failure to deliver what those who voted for Leave have all along said they want.
To put it more simply, perhaps we have the govt we deserve.
I never trust John Curtice's motives for saying the things that he says.
AnatolyKasparov
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Re: Wednesday 6th December 2017

Post by AnatolyKasparov »

PorFavor wrote:
gilsey wrote:Half-Time in The Brexit Negotiations: The Voters’ Scorecard
John Curtice, Senior Research Fellow at NatCen and Professor of Politics at Strathclyde University

The conclusion is interesting, and not in a good way.
Rather than coming to the conclusion that the progress of the Brexit process so far means they came to the wrong decision about the EU, it seems that Leave voters are inclined to the view
that those responsible for the process – including the EU as well as the UK government – are (from their perspective) failing to make progress towards the kind of future arrangement that they
would largely still like to see. In short, they blame the actors in the Brexit process not the act of leaving itself. If the talks about Brexit continue to be difficult and if the economy does indeed
begin to suffer, we should not presume that voters in Britain will change their minds about the merits of Brexit. Rather they may simply blame politicians - on both sides of the channel – for their
apparent failure to deliver what those who voted for Leave have all along said they want.
To put it more simply, perhaps we have the govt we deserve.
I never trust John Curtice's motives for saying the things that he says.
Out of interest, why not? To me he comes across as one if the more "straight" commentators out there.
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Tubby Isaacs
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Re: Wednesday 6th December 2017

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

Me too. I think Curtice is excellent.
Bonnylad
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Re: Wednesday 6th December 2017

Post by Bonnylad »

Faisal Islam‏Verified account @faisalislam

Split verdict - but no contempt by Davis votes the Brexit committee because there were no impact assessments
frog222
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Re: Wednesday 6th December 2017

Post by frog222 »

Link to the Curtice article ?

I did try first :!
tinybgoat
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Re: Wednesday 6th December 2017

Post by tinybgoat »

frog222 wrote:Link to the Curtice article ?

I did try first :!
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5076555/m ... me-the-eu/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
(sorry, may be available elsewhere?)
tinybgoat
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Re: Wednesday 6th December 2017

Post by tinybgoat »

tinybgoat wrote:
frog222 wrote:Link to the Curtice article ?

I did try first :!
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5076555/m ... me-the-eu/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
(sorry, may be available elsewhere?)
http://uk.businessinsider.com/brexit-vo ... en-2017-12" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
phew!
PaulfromYorkshire
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Re: Wednesday 6th December 2017

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

Bonnylad wrote:Faisal Islam‏Verified account @faisalislam

Split verdict - but no contempt by Davis votes the Brexit committee because there were no impact assessments
11-8 for no contempt. There are 10 Tories and 1 DUP.
frog222
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Re: Wednesday 6th December 2017

Post by frog222 »

TBG haha ! thanks

I found the Sun one, complete with boobs, but thought there must be something more er serious elsewhere !
frog222
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Re: Wednesday 6th December 2017

Post by frog222 »

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
Bonnylad wrote:Faisal Islam‏Verified account @faisalislam

Split verdict - but no contempt by Davis votes the Brexit committee because there were no impact assessments
11-8 for no contempt. There are 10 Tories and 1 DUP.
So his answers to Seema Malhotra's thrice-repeated "impact assessments", Q131, do not count as lying !!!?

http://data.parliament.uk/writteneviden ... 72017.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Tubby Isaacs
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Re: Wednesday 6th December 2017

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

Only lying isn't as bad as contempt.
frog222
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Re: Wednesday 6th December 2017

Post by frog222 »

For some (cough) light relief; Mr Crace -- apparently he's said he's not doing satire tonight but just straight reporting .

It's increasingly hard to tell the difference, as in the last two Raph Behrs at the G

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -committee" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Wednesday 6th December 2017

Post by HindleA »

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/p ... w-11650560" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


“It is almost certainly the case that by increasing participation in the workforce, including far higher levels of participation by marginal groups and very high levels of engagement in the workforce, for example of disabled people - something we should be extremely proud of - may have had an impact overall productivity measurements.”



Dickhead.
AnatolyKasparov
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Re: Wednesday 6th December 2017

Post by AnatolyKasparov »

The Guardian is going tabloid!

For once I mean that in a literal rather than a metaphorical sense, there will be a move to that format size in early 2018.
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HindleA
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Re: Wednesday 6th December 2017

Post by HindleA »

From a government of lazy fuckers.
PaulfromYorkshire
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Re: Wednesday 6th December 2017

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

So as Willow foreshadowed earlier we are left utterly uncertain as to whether the Impact Assessments ever existed. Either they did and they were so bad that they have been destroyed and Davis is lying, or they didn't, in which case Davis was lying when he previously said they did.

Surely this situation is quite unsustainable.
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Re: Wednesday 6th December 2017

Post by HindleA »

If in doubt blame the sick/disabled-varying degrees of fascist.
PaulfromYorkshire
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Re: Wednesday 6th December 2017

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

AnatolyKasparov wrote:The Guardian is going tabloid!

For once I mean that in a literal rather than a metaphorical sense, there will be a move to that format size in early 2018.
Ich bin kein Berliner.
AnatolyKasparov
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Re: Wednesday 6th December 2017

Post by AnatolyKasparov »

Sorry for the dull admin technical question, but is there not a delete button on one's posts anymore?

Oh, I see there is one on this - so is it time limited??
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HindleA
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Re: Wednesday 6th December 2017

Post by HindleA »

Goes after no longer last post,I think.


(Yeah)
Last edited by HindleA on Wed 06 Dec, 2017 7:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
frog222
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Re: Wednesday 6th December 2017

Post by frog222 »

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:So as Willow foreshadowed earlier we are left utterly uncertain as to whether the Impact Assessments ever existed. Either they did and they were so bad that they have been destroyed and Davis is lying, or they didn't, in which case Davis was lying when he previously said they did.

Surely this situation is quite unsustainable.
Paul , my take on that one is that it's like going to War .

The decision to attack was made by the referendum result, the binding Will of The People .

Sacrosanct.

So we'll spend whatever is needed .

(Edited to add that cost-benefit analyses are not applicable , obviously .)
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Re: Wednesday 6th December 2017

Post by HindleA »

Hammond's bollox is actually worse than IDS's.
frog222
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Re: Wednesday 6th December 2017

Post by frog222 »

Elaborate ?
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Re: Wednesday 6th December 2017

Post by HindleA »

By definition ,of less worth.
Last edited by HindleA on Wed 06 Dec, 2017 8:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wednesday 6th December 2017

Post by HindleA »

http://press.labour.org.uk/post/1682626 ... s-comments" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PS you are a useless twot.
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Re: Wednesday 6th December 2017

Post by HindleA »

https://newshoundsnewsround.wordpress.c ... ween-them/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Private firms that run government’s disability benefit tests only employ FOUR doctors between them
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citizenJA
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Re: Wednesday 6th December 2017

Post by citizenJA »

HindleA wrote:https://newshoundsnewsround.wordpress.c ... ween-them/


Private firms that run government’s disability benefit tests only employ FOUR doctors between them
Are their doctorates in medicine?
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citizenJA
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Re: Wednesday 6th December 2017

Post by citizenJA »

frog222 wrote:Elaborate ?
Hammond has used disabled workers as the cause of the UK's productivity problem
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citizenJA
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Re: Wednesday 6th December 2017

Post by citizenJA »

Thank goodness for John Crace
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Re: Wednesday 6th December 2017

Post by HindleA »

They get ridiculous amounts for paper assessments alone.An ability to read,maybe make a 'phone call wouldn't particularly tax most if us.The DM still makes the decision.
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citizenJA
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Re: Wednesday 6th December 2017

Post by citizenJA »

Davis ploughed on, too dim to realise he was about to contradict himself. Yet again. “These folders … ” he said, proudly pointing towards the two files that he had just admitted were basically full of mindless, anodyne drivel. “These folders represent 15 man years of expert work.” That explained the country’s productivity crisis.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -committee" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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tinyclanger2
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Re: Wednesday 6th December 2017

Post by tinyclanger2 »

Effect of Brexit on EU research and innovation

http://bruegel.org/events/the-impact-of ... in-europe/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
THIS IS AN INVITATION-ONLY EVENT BUT IT WILL BE LIVESTREAMED ON THIS PAGE STARTING AT 13:00 ON 12 DECEMBER.
LET'S FACE IT I'M JUST 'KIN' SEETHIN'
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Re: Wednesday 6th December 2017

Post by HindleA »

Presume 12.00 U.K


PTO after next.
Last edited by HindleA on Wed 06 Dec, 2017 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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tinyclanger2
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Re: Wednesday 6th December 2017

Post by tinyclanger2 »

Am assuming so
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