Tuesday 5th December 2017

[refitman]

Morning all.

[PorFavor]

Good morfternoon.

[frog222]

“”The trouble was that agreeing to keep British rules aligned with Brussels would rather undermine the whole point of Brexit. Already

Brexiters were being asked to swallow a bucket-load of humble pie. Many of May’s stubborn red lines, such as a refusal to countenance any role for the ECJ, were in tatters. The promises made to voters before and after the referendum were looking dangerously hollow. “”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -misplaced" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

“” Changes to rules around drinks containers have enjoyed wider consultation and democratic scrutiny than the redrawing of Northern Ireland’s economic reality almost went through. The very blueprint and integrity of the UK was almost bartered away behind closed Brussel’s doors; that’s really pretty bewildering. Not to mention the Pandora’s Box it would have sprung open, as London, Wales and Scotland would have all sought to enter the same deal – creating a random customs zig zag across the UK“”

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/bre ... 92116.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Have the dinosaurs done everyone a favour ?

Good morning !

[SpinningHugo]

The only party whose position makes even less sense than that of the mainland Brexit parties of Labour and Tory is that of the DUP.

Such a shame Corbtyn is leader. How silly the claims he was about to start fighting the Tories on the EU now look.

Another leader might try to rescue what he can from Brexit, or be able to convince the DUP to abandon the Tories. No hope with JC with his history on the IRA.

Politics is so grim.

[PorFavor]

Dominic Grieve on Sky TV news also appears not to support Theresa May's Ireland position.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Dominic Grieve on Sky TV news also appears not to support Theresa May's Ireland position.

Morning!

Well of course he doesn't.

He's no angel, but he surely knows the contents of the Pandora's box that May is bizarrely trying to open.

[citizenJA]

Good-morning, everyone

[citizenJA]

Dominic Grieve on Sky TV news also appears not to support Theresa May's Ireland position.

What's May's position today

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Labour Whips‏Verified account
@labourwhips
8m8 minutes ago
More
Labour will today ask MPs to release at least 5 secretive reports, which have already ordered to be made public by an independent body, which could help fix Universal Credit.

[citizenJA]

UK rail passengers face biggest rise in fares for five years

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/ ... ket-prices" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

damn

[frog222]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/ ... 2jJnT8.png" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[SpinningHugo]

Labour tactically silent n the media on Brexit today.

Vote for an actual opposition, not the Campaign group in control of Labour.

[frog222]

For Northern Ireland, meanwhile, the deal would be inarguably positive. It would leave open the possibility of maintaining the North’s special status, thereby limiting its exposure to the worst effects of Brexit and giving it a competitive advantage over other parts of the UK. The DUP’s opposition to special status is more political stagecraft than principled conviction. The Belfast Agreement enshrines Northern Ireland’s special status. The region already opts out of many British laws the DUP doesn’t like, and, as unionist support for a 12.5 per cent corporate tax rate in the North shows, it has long ago conceded the principle of regulatory alignment with the Republic. The same goes for its supposed opposition to goods controls in the Irish Sea – a position that already obtains for animal and plant products.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/edit ... -1.3315512" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Willow904]

For Northern Ireland, meanwhile, the deal would be inarguably positive. It would leave open the possibility of maintaining the North’s special status, thereby limiting its exposure to the worst effects of Brexit and giving it a competitive advantage over other parts of the UK. The DUP’s opposition to special status is more political stagecraft than principled conviction. The Belfast Agreement enshrines Northern Ireland’s special status. The region already opts out of many British laws the DUP doesn’t like, and, as unionist support for a 12.5 per cent corporate tax rate in the North shows, it has long ago conceded the principle of regulatory alignment with the Republic. The same goes for its supposed opposition to goods controls in the Irish Sea – a position that already obtains for animal and plant products.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/edit ... -1.3315512" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

All true.

I think the greatest difficulty is the DUP's general, ideological support for Brexit in principle. If they were more in favour of close ties with the EU in general, they could agree to the proposed wording on the border issue, whilst also pressing the government on the need for alignment across all regions of the UK - ie. a soft brexit, with single market and or CU for everyone. Because really their point about all regions of the UK needing to have the same post-Brexit relationship with the EU is a strong one.

[Willow904]

Complete barney between SNP and Tory representatives on Victoria Derbyshire this morning.

Sinn Fein piling in today, as well.

And Nicola Sturgeon with this (from the G live blog):

Nicola Sturgeon has called for opposition parties and pro-EU Conservative MPs to form an informal coalition at Westminster to ensure the UK remains in the single market and customs union, exploiting the disarray in Theresa May’s government.

The first minister challenged Jeremy Corbyn, the Labour leader, to get his act together in a tweet on Tuesday morning, stating: “This could be the moment for opposition and soft Brexit/remain Tories to force a different, less damaging approach - keep the UK in the single market and customs union. But it needs Labour to get its act together. How about it @jeremycorbyn?”

Are we going to get Corbyn insisting leaving the EU means we have to leave the single market or Keir Starmer insisting Labour isn't ruling anything out, including staying in SM in response?

[frog222]

For Northern Ireland, meanwhile, the deal would be inarguably positive. It would leave open the possibility of maintaining the North’s special status, thereby limiting its exposure to the worst effects of Brexit and giving it a competitive advantage over other parts of the UK. The DUP’s opposition to special status is more political stagecraft than principled conviction. The Belfast Agreement enshrines Northern Ireland’s special status. The region already opts out of many British laws the DUP doesn’t like, and, as unionist support for a 12.5 per cent corporate tax rate in the North shows, it has long ago conceded the principle of regulatory alignment with the Republic. The same goes for its supposed opposition to goods controls in the Irish Sea – a position that already obtains for animal and plant products.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/edit ... -1.3315512" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

All true.

I think the greatest difficulty is the DUP's general, ideological support for Brexit in principle. If they were more in favour of close ties with the EU in general, they could agree to the proposed wording on the border issue, whilst also pressing the government on the need for alignment across all regions of the UK - ie. a soft brexit, with single market and or CU for everyone. Because really their point about all regions of the UK needing to have the same post-Brexit relationship with the EU is a strong one.

"" a soft brexit, with single market and or CU for everyone. ""
I just do not know how soft a brexit is acceptable to the EU (forgetting the DUP and Brexiteers for now) . Perhaps too close to having the cake and eating it ?

[frog222]

Complete barney between SNP and Tory representatives on Victoria Derbyshire this morning.

Sinn Fein piling in today, as well.

And Nicola Sturgeon with this (from the G live blog):

Nicola Sturgeon has called for opposition parties and pro-EU Conservative MPs to form an informal coalition at Westminster to ensure the UK remains in the single market and customs union, exploiting the disarray in Theresa May’s government.

The first minister challenged Jeremy Corbyn, the Labour leader, to get his act together in a tweet on Tuesday morning, stating: “This could be the moment for opposition and soft Brexit/remain Tories to force a different, less damaging approach - keep the UK in the single market and customs union. But it needs Labour to get its act together. How about it @jeremycorbyn?”

Are we going to get Corbyn insisting leaving the EU means we have to leave the single market or Keir Starmer insisting Labour isn't ruling anything out, including staying in SM in response?

I do wonder if Labour is remaining "tactically silent (Hugo)" , or er clueless !!!

( Dank in Normandie, but out for some fresh air .)

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Just a reminder of the "Please Read" as posted by Adam at the top of the Daily Politics

http://www.flythenest.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1480" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[PaulfromYorkshire]

I suspect Labour's position is that May should make a full statement to the House and they will then respond.

Why should Thornberry or anyone show up to Radio 4 when nobody has a clue what the Government is doing?

[gilsey]

I think the greatest difficulty is the DUP's general, ideological support for Brexit in principle.

They're barking.
Completely inexplicable how a political party can arrive at such a contradictory policy position. Unicorns.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Labour Whips on Twitter

Government confirm one statement today and NOT on Brexit, so when the PM told the press conference yesterday that they “require further negotiations and consultation”, it seems the PM didn’t mean consult or update Parliament.

[gilsey]

"" a soft brexit, with single market and or CU for everyone. ""
I just do not know how soft a brexit is acceptable to the EU (forgetting the DUP and Brexiteers for now) . Perhaps too close to having the cake and eating it ?

If we accepted the four freedoms I would think it's a win-win for the EU, keep the trade but don't have to put up with our grandstanding in Brussels.

[gilsey]

I'm getting the impression that the tories actually want SM & CU for sectors affecting the GFA, which presumably means anything regularly traded across the Irish border? If that was extended to the whole of the UK, that would be serious cherrypicking, are they thinking they can use NI to bounce the EU into it?

Ruth Davidson just now.

All sides agree there should be no return to the borders of the past between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. Similarly, jeopardising the UK’s own internal market is in no-one’s interest.

If regulatory alignment in a number of specific areas is the requirement for a frictionless border, then the prime minister should conclude this must be on a UK-wide basis.

[Willow904]

All true.

I think the greatest difficulty is the DUP's general, ideological support for Brexit in principle. If they were more in favour of close ties with the EU in general, they could agree to the proposed wording on the border issue, whilst also pressing the government on the need for alignment across all regions of the UK - ie. a soft brexit, with single market and or CU for everyone. Because really their point about all regions of the UK needing to have the same post-Brexit relationship with the EU is a strong one.

"" a soft brexit, with single market and or CU for everyone. ""
I just do not know how soft a brexit is acceptable to the EU (forgetting the DUP and Brexiteers for now) . Perhaps too close to having the cake and eating it ?

There is no cake and eat it. Full single market access requires accepting the four freedoms, including free movement of people. The degree can be negotiable perhaps, but not the basic principle, so we wouldn't regain control of our borders. Meanwhile a customs union of any kind means we wouldn't be able to negotiate our own trade deals.

So what's the point of leaving the EU but staying in SM and CU? I would argue there is a point, beyond damage limitation. We are a large economy. We would change the relationship between the EU and those in the SM but outside the EU, a relationship that could evolve over time. If we don't want to eventually join the Euro, it may be where we ideally belong. Countries the world over are joining such economic blocs, not pursuing isolationist nationalism by leaving them. If you look at soft brexit as a starting point, rather than an end point, it makes more sense.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

I think what we really need is an emergency brake on regulatory alignment.

[PorFavor]

Keir Starmer has been granted an Urgent Question ("Brexit") at 12.30pm.

[PorFavor]

For the sake of argument (and this requires a suspension of disbelief) if we all were to let this pass and move straight on to the trade talks, who's to say that this situation wouldn't simply arise again at the later stages?

[Tubby Isaacs]

I'm getting the impression that the tories actually want SM & CU for sectors affecting the GFA, which presumably means anything regularly traded across the Irish border? If that was extended to the whole of the UK, that would be serious cherrypicking, are they thinking they can use NI to bounce the EU into it?

Ruth Davidson just now.

All sides agree there should be no return to the borders of the past between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. Similarly, jeopardising the UK’s own internal market is in no-one’s interest.

If regulatory alignment in a number of specific areas is the requirement for a frictionless border, then the prime minister should conclude this must be on a UK-wide basis.

I think May's been likely resigned to a much softer Brexit for a while. Hence the capitulation on the exit bill. It was useful for her to have the DUP lined up as fall guys yesterday, because she' have never got that past her own party. Now she can say she tried, wish she'd won the election but she didn't. It's not like the 3 Brexiteers have achieved anything. Of the other Brexiteers in the Cabinet, Gove can't do much because he's already regarded as a disloyal shit.

[Tubby Isaacs]

I'm seriously worried May could catch Labour out with a softer Brexit position.

[AnatolyKasparov]

Labour tactically silent n the media on Brexit today.

Vote for an actual opposition, not the Campaign group in control of Labour.

Owen Smith was not asked by the BBC to appear on their programmes this morning, the leadership would have been quite happy for him to have done so.

Nick Robinson caught out telling yet another fib on this, stop believing him.

[PorFavor]

They [the DUP] claimed that the original plan was for the regulations to ease the flow of trade in goods and services on the island of Ireland to be drawn up in London with the DUP fully consulted.

“Everything was OK until a leak of a draft came out on Monday via RTE which was not part of the negotiations between London and Dublin. This inaccurate version of the deal spooked the horses. The idea was that these measures to ensure a soft border were to be seen to have originated in London but the leak changed everything,” the DUP sources insisted. (Politics Live, Guardian)

[Tubby Isaacs]

Corbyn doesn't need to be invited onto Today to speak via his Twitter.

His sum total on the issue yesterday was something about the Tory/DUP deal.

[gilsey]

Corbyn doesn't need to be invited onto Today to speak via his Twitter.

His sum total on the issue yesterday was something about the Tory/DUP deal.

'Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake' - Napoleon.
ht Nick Pettigrew via ohso.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Keir Starmer has been granted an Urgent Question ("Brexit") at 12.30pm.

Great.

This is quite right. Forget Toady let's get this matter sorted in front of the elected House.

Once Starmer has heard the response from whoever deigns to turn up, he will I'm sure respond.

[AnatolyKasparov]

Corbyn doesn't need to be invited onto Today to speak via his Twitter.

His sum total on the issue yesterday was something about the Tory/DUP deal.

And many of us are quite happy with that, what else is he supposed to say?

(some have expressed unease about the DUP being a political football, but all the indications are that their deal with the Tories is pretty toxic to many voters)

[Tubby Isaacs]

Corbyn doesn't need to be invited onto Today to speak via his Twitter.

His sum total on the issue yesterday was something about the Tory/DUP deal.

'Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake' - Napoleon.
ht Nick Pettigrew via ohso.

I don't know if the Tories are making a mistake, that's the trouble. They conceded the exit bill, they're still talking. I thought they'd have given up and just blamed the EU.

If they soften the Brexit, there's £3bn or thereabouts that goes in "Philip Hammond's War Chest".

Looking at what car manufacturers have been told. Isn't that likely it's something along the lines of Soft Brexit? Do we really believe blah blah electric cars blah kept them happy?

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Well I'm about to turn on Parliament TV in the hope of finding out a bit more

[Tubby Isaacs]

Corbyn doesn't need to be invited onto Today to speak via his Twitter.

His sum total on the issue yesterday was something about the Tory/DUP deal.

And many of us are quite happy with that, what else is he supposed to say?

(some have expressed unease about the DUP being a political football, but all the indications are that their deal with the Tories is pretty toxic to many voters)

Say who really blocked it- other Tories.

Was it a good idea or a bad idea, anyhow? The way things look at the moment, at least the Tories are trying stuff.

[AnatolyKasparov]

I'm seriously worried May could catch Labour out with a softer Brexit position.

Labour moved to a significantly softer position themselves some times ago, no?

The reason why May will be loath to make such a thing explicit is, of course, her own party. The likes of JRM and Redwood regard a "no deal" Brexit as sacred, and it is surely right to suspect the present day cabinet "bar stewards" (Johnson, Gove et al) won't shirk any chance to stick the knife in.

[Tubby Isaacs]

There's been a Cabinet meeting on now, I think.

It's a big if, a very big if, but if you wanted to choreograph a softer Brexit, I think this is how you'd do it. It's not been all 3D chess by May, far from it, but she did cover herself with sticking the 3 brexiteers in the Brexit posts. She's supported them.

But we'll soon see.

[Tubby Isaacs]

The reason why May will be loath to make such a thing explicit is, of course, her own party. The likes of JRM and Redwood regard a "no deal" Brexit as sacred, and it is surely right to suspect the present day cabinet "bar stewards" (Johnson, Gove et al) won't shirk any chance to stick the knife in.

We keep seeing the same faces sticking up for Hard Brexit. Some days, it falls to Michael Howard to defend it. Who did we get today? David Jones. Gove is hobbled by needing to put in a loyal shift. Johnson, Fox and David have actually been running things.

Soft Brexit, explicitly to prepare for long term reallignment, has some pedigree on the right. See Richard North and Christopher Booker. That could be sellable.

[AnatolyKasparov]

Well, we will see soon enough. I am sceptical of May's ability to pull such a thing off even if she wanted to (and let's not forget the rabid pro-Brexit press here, either)

[frog222]

Well I'm about to turn on Parliament TV in the hope of finding out a bit more

Found it !

http://parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/4d ... c075313a86" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Davis made good points on Labour previously also attacking SM an CU , so it wasn't only May ....

ongoing

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Davis quite hopeless.

Starmer says Single Market & Customs Union should be back on the table and the fixed withdrawal date cancelled.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

What McDonnell (and Corbyn) have said that is that talking about staying in the Single Market is unhelpful because it sounds like you're planning to stay in the EU. Because then people say you have to retain all the four freedoms etc. etc.

[AnatolyKasparov]

Another hilarious contribution to political debate from the one and only Dickie "CARE NOT CAR PARKS!!" Angell today. The man is genuinely bonkers

[Tubby Isaacs]

Davis sounds hopeless- I've been walking dogs.

Antoinette Sandbach, a Conservative, says thousands of jobs in her constituency depend on regulatory alignment. Can we have that for the whole of the UK?

She's an underrated sane Tory Remainer. She's got pharma in her constituency, or next door- where the MP is Esther McVey.

[Tubby Isaacs]

What McDonnell (and Corbyn) have said that is that talking about staying in the Single Market is unhelpful because it sounds like you're planning to stay in the EU. Because then people say you have to retain all the four freedoms etc. etc.

They could say European Economic Area.

They could have started saying right when they were saying they couldn't say it.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Friend of mine observes.

Hmmm. Davis trolling the opposition about customs union/single market, but is pointedly not explicitly defending it as a red line, in response to multiple opportunities.

Fair comment?

[gilsey]

PM should put option of customs union and single market back on table, because "if price is break up of the united kingdom, the price is too high".

This is what I wanted to hear from Labour, I think they were right to wait until the Irish border issue was front and centre of the debate.