Saturday 9th & Sunday 10th December 2017

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PaulfromYorkshire
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Re: Saturday 9th & Sunday 10th December 2017

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

SpinningHugo wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:Starmer stunningly useless on Marr.

Even allowing for the constraints he is under from the leadership favouring leaving the CU and SM, he is hopeless.
Hugo Starmer's not a TV celeb never will be.

At his best, unsurprisingly, working through the detail and performing in the House.

I didn't watch it, but Twitter response was relatively positive I'd say. People at least seem to believe him, unlike Davis.
And what a triumph he has been at that. Brilliantly putting together an alliance of the opposition and Tory soft Brexiteers to pass amendment after amendment.

To think this hopeless man was once thought of as leadership potential!
I thought it looked likely the Government would lose a Brexit vote soon.

The mood is changing isn't it? And the reality too?
gilsey
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Re: Saturday 9th & Sunday 10th December 2017

Post by gilsey »

This is a bit too long but has some good bits.
https://www.rte.ie/news/analysis-and-co ... lly-part2/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
in Friday’s text, the UK declared it would: "maintain fully alignment with those rules of the internal market and customs union which, now and in the future, support...the all-island economy."

So, take the 142 areas of North-South activity that is impacted by Brexit, add to it the need to support the all-island economy, then the logic of Ireland wanting a maximalist interpretation of "full alignment" is clear.

However, when Denis Staunton of the Irish Times put the question to the Department of Exiting the European Union (DexEU), he got a very different response.

A spokesman for the department said the commitment to maintain full alignment with the "rules of the internal market and the customs union" applied only to the six areas of North-South economic co-operation identified in the Belfast Agreement.

These are transport, agriculture, education, health, environment and tourism.

Crucially, the official said that 142 cross-border policy areas identified by the Barnier task force were merely "subsets of the original six".

This meant that the UK was still perfectly free to leave the single market and the customs union.
a selective approach to what is aligned, and what is not aligned, will still require checks at the border.

How else will you know which good is produced under EU regulations and which is not, unless you check?
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AnatolyKasparov
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Re: Saturday 9th & Sunday 10th December 2017

Post by AnatolyKasparov »

SH's "Starmer is useless" really is one of their most niche opinions.

He is one of the few Labour politicians outside the current leadership whose name I sometimes hear mentioned by "non political" people, usually approvingly.
"IS TONTY BLAIR BEHIND THIS???!!!!111???!!!"
PaulfromYorkshire
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Re: Saturday 9th & Sunday 10th December 2017

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

The solution to everything Brexit IMHO lies in freedom of movement. Starmer seems to be starting to address this.

There could be a sweet spot where the whole EU shifts on this issue to a freedom of movement that is more about the human right to live and work where we choose and less about capitalism's right to force people to move to their latest low tax sweat shop.
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Re: Saturday 9th & Sunday 10th December 2017

Post by tinyclanger2 »

Hello to regular browsers Baidu Spider, Spinning Hugo and Bing Bot
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Re: Saturday 9th & Sunday 10th December 2017

Post by tinyclanger2 »

And remember: the slot toes the line beneath the solicitor.
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Re: Saturday 9th & Sunday 10th December 2017

Post by tinyclanger2 »

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:The solution to everything Brexit IMHO lies in freedom of movement. Starter seems to be starting to address this.

There could be a sweet spot where the whole EU shifts on this issue to a freedom of movement that is more about the human right to live and work where we choose and less about capitalism's right to force people to move to their latest low tax sweat shop.
Good thinking.
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PorFavor
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Re: Saturday 9th & Sunday 10th December 2017

Post by PorFavor »

tinyclanger2 wrote:And remember: the slot toes the line beneath the solicitor.
It's usually the first thought I have on waking up.
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Re: Saturday 9th & Sunday 10th December 2017

Post by gilsey »

AnatolyKasparov wrote:SH's "Starmer is useless" really is one of their most niche opinions.

He is one of the few Labour politicians outside the current leadership whose name I sometimes hear mentioned by "non political" people, usually approvingly.
It speaks well for Labour that he's on the front bench.
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Willow904
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Re: Saturday 9th & Sunday 10th December 2017

Post by Willow904 »

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:The solution to everything Brexit IMHO lies in freedom of movement. Starmer seems to be starting to address this.

There could be a sweet spot where the whole EU shifts on this issue to a freedom of movement that is more about the human right to live and work where we choose and less about capitalism's right to force people to move to their latest low tax sweat shop.
You do realise that's the exact opposite of what the extreme Brexiters are after? They clearly want immigration without rights to suit exploitative employers instead of freedom of movement with rights that suits the employee.
That the rest of the EU would be open to travelling further in the direction of individual rights is a reflection of the "ever closer union" that the Euroscerptics most fear - a world where we are all EU citizens wherever we live and work and national borders become less and less relevant.
That is to say, your solution sounds good to me, and probably most remainers, but possibly won't appeal to the nationalist sentiment of the average leave voter.
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frog222
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Re: Saturday 9th & Sunday 10th December 2017

Post by frog222 »

Better twice than not at all !

I thought I'd refreshed too ... but still on page1 ...
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Willow904
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Re: Saturday 9th & Sunday 10th December 2017

Post by Willow904 »

gilsey wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:SH's "Starmer is useless" really is one of their most niche opinions.

He is one of the few Labour politicians outside the current leadership whose name I sometimes hear mentioned by "non political" people, usually approvingly.
It speaks well for Labour that he's on the front bench.
Owen Smith has been a good choice for the shadow Northern Ireland post as well. His experience working in the NI office comes through in TV interviews.

Starmer's interview on Marr wasn't very good though. He keeps trying to explain things properly, which takes more than a soundbite sentence, which meant Marr kept butting in before he really said anything. Which is not to say Starmer came across badly, just that the interview would have been much better if he'd been allowed to say something all the way through. He did make Marr look a bit stupid at one point though when Marr was trying to say paying in and still having free movement of people was the "worst of all worlds" when he pointed out that having an optimal trading relationship with our biggest trading partner and keeping the Good Friday Agreement intact was surely not the worst outcome we could be looking at. Not sure he would convince many leavers, but it's the right approach - to highlight the benefits of the SM and/or CU route, rather than let the hard Brexiters control the narrative by only focusing on the negatives.
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Re: Saturday 9th & Sunday 10th December 2017

Post by tinyclanger2 »

frog222 wrote:Better twice than not at all !

I thought I'd refreshed too ... but still on page1 ...
How very Por Favor!
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PaulfromYorkshire
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Re: Saturday 9th & Sunday 10th December 2017

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

Willow904 wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:The solution to everything Brexit IMHO lies in freedom of movement. Starmer seems to be starting to address this.

There could be a sweet spot where the whole EU shifts on this issue to a freedom of movement that is more about the human right to live and work where we choose and less about capitalism's right to force people to move to their latest low tax sweat shop.
You do realise that's the exact opposite of what the extreme Brexiters are after? They clearly want immigration without rights to suit exploitative employers instead of freedom of movement with rights that suits the employee.
That the rest of the EU would be open to travelling further in the direction of individual rights is a reflection of the "ever closer union" that the Euroscerptics most fear - a world where we are all EU citizens wherever we live and work and national borders become less and less relevant.
That is to say, your solution sounds good to me, and probably most remainers, but possibly won't appeal to the nationalist sentiment of the average leave voter.
Yes I do realise that!

But I've said all along that was is missing for me is a positive, forward looking socialist internationalist view of what the EU and our place in it might look like.

I personally don't believe we can ever go back now and un-Brexit to the status quo (even though I know in fact we are still in it). But things change elsewhere too. Merkel is fading away. Spain is in chaos.

If this benighted government falls, there is an opportunity for Labour to stand on a platform for a new relationship with Europe that the EU may want to move towards too. A jobs first customs and trade union. Protection from capitalism for workers across the continent. An ethical, non-interventionist foreign policy for Europe. Freedom to move but strong regional policy so workers can stay where they live. More transparent democracy.Etc.

I believe this could be strong electorally. Sure the UKIP brigade will never countenance it.
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Re: Saturday 9th & Sunday 10th December 2017

Post by frog222 »

Willow904 wrote:
gilsey wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:SH's "Starmer is useless" really is one of their most niche opinions.

He is one of the few Labour politicians outside the current leadership whose name I sometimes hear mentioned by "non political" people, usually approvingly.
It speaks well for Labour that he's on the front bench.
Owen Smith has been a good choice for the shadow Northern Ireland post as well. His experience working in the NI office comes through in TV interviews.

Starmer's interview on Marr wasn't very good though. He keeps trying to explain things properly, which takes more than a soundbite sentence, which meant Marr kept butting in before he really said anything. Which is not to say Starmer came across badly, just that the interview would have been much better if he'd been allowed to say something all the way through. He did make Marr look a bit stupid at one point though when Marr was trying to say paying in and still having free movement of people was the "worst of all worlds" when he pointed out that having an optimal trading relationship with our biggest trading partner and keeping the Good Friday Agreement intact was surely not the worst outcome we could be looking at. Not sure he would convince many leavers, but it's the right approach - to highlight the benefits of the SM and/or CU route, rather than let the hard Brexiters control the narrative by only focusing on the negatives.
However long you have you can't explain away the contradictions -- (Wren-Lewis link justover page)
This logic leads you inevitably to the conclusion that, after Brexit, the UK will to the first approximation [2] continue to obey all the rules of the Single Market and Customs Union. So it will be as if we are still in the EU, with the only difference being that we no longer have any say on what those rules are. Fintan O’Toole quotes Sherlock Holmes: eliminate the impossible and whatever remains, however improbable, must be the solution.
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Re: Saturday 9th & Sunday 10th December 2017

Post by frog222 »

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:The solution to everything Brexit IMHO lies in freedom of movement. Starmer seems to be starting to address this.

There could be a sweet spot where the whole EU shifts on this issue to a freedom of movement that is more about the human right to live and work where we choose and less about capitalism's right to force people to move to their latest low tax sweat shop.
You do realise that's the exact opposite of what the extreme Brexiters are after? They clearly want immigration without rights to suit exploitative employers instead of freedom of movement with rights that suits the employee.
That the rest of the EU would be open to travelling further in the direction of individual rights is a reflection of the "ever closer union" that the Euroscerptics most fear - a world where we are all EU citizens wherever we live and work and national borders become less and less relevant.
That is to say, your solution sounds good to me, and probably most remainers, but possibly won't appeal to the nationalist sentiment of the average leave voter.
Yes I do realise that!

But I've said all along that was is missing for me is a positive, forward looking socialist internationalist view of what the EU and our place in it might look like.

I personally don't believe we can ever go back now and un-Brexit to the status quo (even though I know in fact we are still in it). But things change elsewhere too. Merkel is fading away. Spain is in chaos.

If this benighted government falls, there is an opportunity for Labour to stand on a platform for a new relationship with Europe that the EU may want to move towards too. A jobs first customs and trade union. Protection from capitalism for workers across the continent. An ethical, non-interventionist foreign policy for Europe. Freedom to move but strong regional policy so workers can stay where they live. More transparent democracy.Etc.

I believe this could be strong electorally. Sure the UKIP brigade will never countenance it.
That is what Yanis Varoufakis was arguing for .
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Re: Saturday 9th & Sunday 10th December 2017

Post by SpinningHugo »

AnatolyKasparov wrote:SH's "Starmer is useless" really is one of their most niche opinions.

He is one of the few Labour politicians outside the current leadership whose name I sometimes hear mentioned by "non political" people, usually approvingly.

You really cannot know, or even follow on Twitter, anyone even mildly interested interested in Brexit (or anybody from Camden).

There were indeed once hopes with regard to Starmer. Not now

Oh, and if you think I'm making that up, type Starmer into the twitter search box, and scorll down.

This is a man who voted against the amendment to stay in the CU (whihc matters a great deal) while making a big song and dance about the EU CHarter (which matters hardly at all and doesn't make much sense to retain once we've left the EU).

He provides Corbyn, McDonnell and Milne with useful cover, that is all.
Last edited by SpinningHugo on Sun 10 Dec, 2017 1:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Saturday 9th & Sunday 10th December 2017

Post by HindleA »

[youtube]7uJ4kJiMUAc[/youtube]
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Re: Saturday 9th & Sunday 10th December 2017

Post by refitman »

HindleA wrote: " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
[youtube]u7dOuKbuEE4[/youtube]
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Re: Saturday 9th & Sunday 10th December 2017

Post by Lost Soul »

Well, there's a surprise...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... eal-for-uk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

EU officials insisted a bespoke deal more favourable to the UK than other non-EU nations was out of the question.

One EU source close to the talks said: “We have been approached by a number of [non-member] countries expressing concerns and making it clear that it would constitute a major problem for them if suddenly the UK were to get better terms than they get.”

The official said that once the UK is out of the single market and customs union in March 2019, there could be no replication of the terms of the current trading relationship, or anything close to it, and no special treatment.

“It is not just an indication of some strange rigid principle. It is because things won’t work,” he said.

“First and foremost we need to stick to this balance of rights and obligations, otherwise we will be undermining our own customs union and single market. Second, we cannot upset relations with other third countries,” the official said.

“If we were to give the UK a very lopsided deal, then the other partners with whom we have been engaging and who entered into balanced agreements would come back and question those agreements.”
howsillyofme1
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Re: Saturday 9th & Sunday 10th December 2017

Post by howsillyofme1 »

Good afternoon

The idea that there are any easy answers to the EU issue is rather naive and is seen in all the contradictions that come from the Tories position - the fact that they have just managed to get a short time respite from the chaos due to a certain level of reasonableness from the EU does not hide all the problems that will come in the future

It is interesting that some people on here and many in the media seem to have more interest in what Labour want to do and to answer all the difficult questions when they have not even been in any negotiations whilst the Tories are allowed to swan around delivering nothing and talking bollocks

As has been articulated before the Irish border question encapsulates the difficulties and the problems that arise from leaving the EU - the presence of that border and the criticality of avoiding going back to any type of border seems to prevent the delivery of a deal that does not allow the access to the Single Market and essentially membership of the CU as now

This solution which will sound really good to the Remainers and SM fans though has its own problems. We will essentially be a membership in all but name and the fact we will be beholden to all the rules whilst paying a lot of money for the privilege and not having the ability to sit in on setting the rules (along with whatever the EU decide to land on us as well - I am sure there will be something to make the taste all the much bitter seeing they hold the cards). This is what Gardiner was talking about the other month - it makes no real sense politically

I cannot see that solution as being politically sustainable over the medium to long term - even for those who think it is economically a good solution. We will then go through it all again in a few years when we want to rejoin...or someone wants to break the link again (and they will not need a referendum to tear up the treaties).

I fear the UK relationship with he EU is going to dominate our politics for many years to come

All this, of course, is assuming the EU will allow us to have a relationship as close as we will need - there is no guarantee that they will do this - and that the Tories will sign up to it either

Does Hugo ever post anything either new or interesting?
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Re: Saturday 9th & Sunday 10th December 2017

Post by citizenJA »

tinyclanger2 wrote:And remember: the slot toes the line beneath the solicitor.
Sane Factions sell really well
I can't give the Solicitors away
not baking any more of them
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Re: Saturday 9th & Sunday 10th December 2017

Post by citizenJA »

Good-afternoon, everyone
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Re: Saturday 9th & Sunday 10th December 2017

Post by citizenJA »

howsillyofme1 wrote:---
Does Hugo ever post anything either new or interesting?
(cJA edit)

Never shares a single tasty baked good
pfft
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Re: Saturday 9th & Sunday 10th December 2017

Post by HindleA »

The Labour Party has been thoroughly destroyed by an extremist takeover.Certainly,my views have thoroughly changed by being exactly the same.Then again,the eugenicists prevalent in the Fabians,or indeed Churchill,Keynes,Beveridge were never really my bag.
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Re: Saturday 9th & Sunday 10th December 2017

Post by citizenJA »

Willow904 wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:The solution to everything Brexit IMHO lies in freedom of movement. Starmer seems to be starting to address this.

There could be a sweet spot where the whole EU shifts on this issue to a freedom of movement that is more about the human right to live and work where we choose and less about capitalism's right to force people to move to their latest low tax sweat shop.
You do realise that's the exact opposite of what the extreme Brexiters are after?
---
That is to say, your solution sounds good to me, and probably most remainers, but possibly won't appeal to the nationalist sentiment of the average leave voter.
(cJA edit & bold)
Brexiters won't dig discovering they've been sold into villeinage to Tory Lord's Farm & Produce in Squiretown UK for the rest of their and their family's lifetimes.
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Re: Saturday 9th & Sunday 10th December 2017

Post by citizenJA »

HindleA wrote:The Labour Party has been thoroughly destroyed by an extremist takeover.Certainly,my views have thoroughly changed by being exactly the same.Then again,the eugenicists prevalent in the Fabians,or indeed Churchill,Keynes,Beveridge were never really my bag.
Extremist Takeover is the star of my new baked goods seasonal line-up
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Re: Saturday 9th & Sunday 10th December 2017

Post by tinybgoat »

howsillyofme1 wrote:Good afternoon
..
Does Hugo ever post anything either new or interesting?
I'm going to hate myself, but, excluding the obvious, yes, sometimes.
(and not just Black Eyed Susans)
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Re: Saturday 9th & Sunday 10th December 2017

Post by citizenJA »

...the devil quotes scripture
;)
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Re: Saturday 9th & Sunday 10th December 2017

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

frog222 wrote:That is what Yanis Varoufakis was arguing for .
Thanks Frog

I have to admit I didn't have time to read Varoufakis. I have been pretty busy of late. Something for me to catch up with over Christmas then.

I did have a brief Twitter chat with Billy Bragg about it though ;-)
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Re: Saturday 9th & Sunday 10th December 2017

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

JA do your baked goods include any brandy? ;-) x
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Re: Saturday 9th & Sunday 10th December 2017

Post by SpinningHugo »

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
frog222 wrote:That is what Yanis Varoufakis was arguing for .
Thanks Frog

I have to admit I didn't have time to read Varoufakis. I have been pretty busy of late. Something for me to catch up with over Christmas then.

I did have a brief Twitter chat with Billy Bragg about it though ;-)

An example of the same delusion the Brexiteers suffer from. Ignoring the wishes of the other 27 as if they didn't exist.

Corbynite parties are not in control of the other 27, and have no prospect of doing so.
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Re: Saturday 9th & Sunday 10th December 2017

Post by Willow904 »

https://amp.theguardian.com/money/2017/ ... ssion=true" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Over time, someone’s house is likely to increase in value, so it’s reasonable that anyone who has received financial help towards their mortgage should be asked to pay that back if there is available equity when the property is sold.”
Along with help to buy, and the aborted attempt at using property assets to pay for social care and also the above, it seems to me the government is overly relying on house prices remaining high, and continuing to grow, for their numbers to add up. Yet Brexit is surely the biggest threat to continued house price growth since the global crash. It feels like our social security system is starting to resemble a plate spinning balancing act of great financial risk and complexity which won't take much to fall apart, with consequences for both government and individual, and probably on Labour's watch the way things are going. We have to stop fincialising people's homes, we really do.
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Re: Saturday 9th & Sunday 10th December 2017

Post by howsillyofme1 »

SpinningHugo wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
frog222 wrote:That is what Yanis Varoufakis was arguing for .
Thanks Frog

I have to admit I didn't have time to read Varoufakis. I have been pretty busy of late. Something for me to catch up with over Christmas then.

I did have a brief Twitter chat with Billy Bragg about it though ;-)

An example of the same delusion the Brexiteers suffer from. Ignoring the wishes of the other 27 as if they didn't exist.

Corbynite parties are not in control of the other 27, and have no prospect of doing so.
who are you referring to as deluded in this comment? Paul?

These are people who live in the real world and are looking to find a solution that may work in difficult circumstances

All you bring is statements of the bleeding obvious and demonstrations of a weak intellect
Last edited by howsillyofme1 on Sun 10 Dec, 2017 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Saturday 9th & Sunday 10th December 2017

Post by citizenJA »

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:JA do your baked goods include any brandy? ;-) x
Every chance I get
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Re: Saturday 9th & Sunday 10th December 2017

Post by howsillyofme1 »

Willow904 wrote:https://amp.theguardian.com/money/2017/ ... ssion=true
Over time, someone’s house is likely to increase in value, so it’s reasonable that anyone who has received financial help towards their mortgage should be asked to pay that back if there is available equity when the property is sold.”
Along with help to buy, and the aborted attempt at using property assets to pay for social care and also the above, it seems to me the government is overly relying on house prices remaining high, and continuing to grow, for their numbers to add up. Yet Brexit is surely the biggest threat to continued house price growth since the global crash. It feels like our social security system is starting to resemble a plate spinning balancing act of great financial risk and complexity which won't take much to fall apart, with consequences for both government and individual, and probably on Labour's watch the way things are going. We have to stop fincialising people's homes, we really do.

The UK sense of wealth is based on house prices......any party that focuses on maintaining this bubble will likely beat one that wants to do something about it - in the foreseeable future at least
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Re: Saturday 9th & Sunday 10th December 2017

Post by HindleA »

Couldn't disagree more,saved the State incalcuable amounts for a tad of investment.I offer a deal to the fucking bemoaners I give back the penny or so as long as you give me back a fiver.
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Re: Saturday 9th & Sunday 10th December 2017

Post by frog222 »

howsillyofme1 wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:"frog222"]That is what Yanis Varoufakis was arguing for .
Thanks Frog

I have to admit I didn't have time to read Varoufakis. I have been pretty busy of late. Something for me to catch up with over Christmas then.

I did have a brief Twitter chat with Billy Bragg about it though ;-)

An example of the same delusion the Brexiteers suffer from. Ignoring the wishes of the other 27 as if they didn't exist.

Corbynite parties are not in control of the other 27, and have no prospect of doing so.
who are you referring to as deluded in this comment? Paul?

These are people who live in the real world and are looking to find a solution that may work in difficult circumstances

All you bring is statements of the bleeding obvious and demonstrations of a weak intellect
HS -- You have to admit that there is a shift to the right in many states particularly In E Europe, so an ideal reform from our POV will be difficult ... but things are moving so fast that who knows ?
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Re: Saturday 9th & Sunday 10th December 2017

Post by frog222 »

citizenJA wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:JA do your baked goods include any brandy? ;-) x
Every chance I get
Apple brandy here :-)
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citizenJA
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Re: Saturday 9th & Sunday 10th December 2017

Post by citizenJA »

Willow904 wrote:---
We have to stop fincialising people's homes, we really do.
(cJA edit)

Agreed. Council housing isn't built because the private rental sector don't want tenants with an alternative. Everyone needs a safe, affordable, stable-tenured home to live in. UK council housing provided this.
howsillyofme1
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Re: Saturday 9th & Sunday 10th December 2017

Post by howsillyofme1 »


HS -- You have to admit that there is a shift to the right in many states particularly In E Europe, so an ideal reform from our POV will be difficult ... but things are moving so fast that who knows ?
Hiya monsieur - j'espère que vous allez bien ce soir?

Absolutely agree that the right is in the ascendancy and nothing will be easy but the left prey on people's fears and the left needs to try and work together to provide a vision for the future.

The problem with the left in Europe has been that they have tried to mirror the right too much and when the more radical left does gain some leverage then the big beasts from the right come down on them - we need a proper left winger in charge of one of the big countries

There are clearly arguments against this and difficulties to overcome but I get fed up of the pathetic posts from Hugo

Yours was more engaging and opened up the chance to discuss - his was just an assumption he is right, coupled with his usual sneering and condescending tone
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citizenJA
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Re: Saturday 9th & Sunday 10th December 2017

Post by citizenJA »

howsillyofme1 wrote:---
The UK sense of wealth is based on house prices......any party that focuses on maintaining this bubble will likely beat one that wants to do something about it - in the foreseeable future at least
(cJA edit)

Labour could bypass any argument by simply placing another kind of housing on the market.
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citizenJA
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Re: Saturday 9th & Sunday 10th December 2017

Post by citizenJA »

Loss-making Four Seasons, owned by multimillionaire Guy Hands’ Guernsey-based private equity group Terra Firma, has said it may not be able to honour a £26m debt interest payment due on Friday, raising the prospect of the company falling into administration.

- Urgent talks over future of Four Seasons care homes in UK

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... omes-in-uk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
A multimillionaire unable to pay his debt interest?
How's that private sector provision of public services working out?
About as bad as it can be and totally without redemption

Thank f*** Guy Hands will come out of this okay though. I'm being sarcastic. Get a job, Hands. Apprentice yourself for a hundred quid a week for a year working a thirty+ hour work week. Every week. For a year. About a hundred quid. No more.
PaulfromYorkshire
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Re: Saturday 9th & Sunday 10th December 2017

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

SpinningHugo wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
frog222 wrote:That is what Yanis Varoufakis was arguing for .
Thanks Frog

I have to admit I didn't have time to read Varoufakis. I have been pretty busy of late. Something for me to catch up with over Christmas then.

I did have a brief Twitter chat with Billy Bragg about it though ;-)

An example of the same delusion the Brexiteers suffer from. Ignoring the wishes of the other 27 as if they didn't exist.

Corbynite parties are not in control of the other 27, and have no prospect of doing so.
One of the clear wishes of the other 27 is that the UK remains in the EU.

It's also clear there will be no significantly "bespoke" deal for the UK. Rightly so IMHO.

But it isn't logically inconsistent to suggest that all 28 could find a new constitution for the EU that could keep the UK inside, while also addressing pressures in other regions and states.

It's really not delusional to suggest that is it?
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citizenJA
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Re: Saturday 9th & Sunday 10th December 2017

Post by citizenJA »

Have a good evening, everyone
we're going to celebrate Winter with light
love,
cJA
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Re: Saturday 9th & Sunday 10th December 2017

Post by frog222 »

howsillyofme1 wrote:

HS -- You have to admit that there is a shift to the right in many states particularly In E Europe, so an ideal reform from our POV will be difficult ... but things are moving so fast that who knows ?
Hiya monsieur - j'espère que vous allez bien ce soir?

Absolutely agree that the right is in the ascendancy and nothing will be easy but the left prey on people's fears and the left needs to try and work together to provide a vision for the future.

The problem with the left in Europe has been that they have tried to mirror the right too much and when the more radical left does gain some leverage then the big beasts from the right come down on them - we need a proper left winger in charge of one of the big countries

There are clearly arguments against this and difficulties to overcome but I get fed up of the pathetic posts from Hugo

Yours was more engaging and opened up the chance to discuss - his was just an assumption he is right, coupled with his usual sneering and condescending tone
Très bien merçi , avec deux jours de bois de chauffage rentré, just in case !

It would take much imagination and motivation by some (initially) of the other states to take the initiative , re-do Lisbon which was painful enough, and please everybody !!!

It would be the best solution for all though .

If EU has even bigger problems , with the Euro for example, it affects UK in or out, so might as well be in on that score .
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Re: Saturday 9th & Sunday 10th December 2017

Post by Willow904 »

howsillyofme1 wrote:
Willow904 wrote:https://amp.theguardian.com/money/2017/ ... ssion=true
Over time, someone’s house is likely to increase in value, so it’s reasonable that anyone who has received financial help towards their mortgage should be asked to pay that back if there is available equity when the property is sold.”
Along with help to buy, and the aborted attempt at using property assets to pay for social care and also the above, it seems to me the government is overly relying on house prices remaining high, and continuing to grow, for their numbers to add up. Yet Brexit is surely the biggest threat to continued house price growth since the global crash. It feels like our social security system is starting to resemble a plate spinning balancing act of great financial risk and complexity which won't take much to fall apart, with consequences for both government and individual, and probably on Labour's watch the way things are going. We have to stop fincialising people's homes, we really do.

The UK sense of wealth is based on house prices......any party that focuses on maintaining this bubble will likely beat one that wants to do something about it - in the foreseeable future at least
Political parties can try to maintain house prices, but can they prop up a bubble indefinitely? We have a little north sea oil and we had a growing renewable technology sector before the Tories slammed the brakes on. And that's pretty much it. Sense of wealth is right. It's a mirage and we're currently on collision course with reality. Just because the Tories want to keep house prices rising to enrich the propertied classes, it doesn't mean they necessarily can. And I'm worried they are increasingly linking funding for essential social security from the same precarious income stream, with no backstop if house prices fall. We could even see councils going bankrupt as a result.
"Fall seven times, get up eight" - Japanese proverb
howsillyofme1
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Re: Saturday 9th & Sunday 10th December 2017

Post by howsillyofme1 »

Hi Willow

Don't disagree with any of your post (or the one from cJA before either) but I think you are overestimating the capability of a good number of the electorate to think in such a way

Those that don't will vote Tory, and there are a lot of them out there unfortunately
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Re: Saturday 9th & Sunday 10th December 2017

Post by tinybgoat »

PaulfromYorkshire wrote: One of the clear wishes of the other 27 is that the UK remains in the EU.

It's also clear there will be no significantly "bespoke" deal for the UK. Rightly so IMHO.

But it isn't logically inconsistent to suggest that all 28 could find a new constitution for the EU that could keep the UK inside, while also addressing pressures in other regions and states.

It's really not delusional to suggest that is it?
No & I think at this stage it is/would be a dereliction of duty for government not to investigate this (although a repeat offence having called the referendum in the first place, in the form they did & then choosing to accept it as binding etc).
Ideally we'd end up with a definitive idea of what possible arrangements are available & why, and could either pursue one or stick with status quo, but with enough evidence of why leaving isn't a good/viable option to (hopefully) satisfy some of the leave voters.
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Re: Saturday 9th & Sunday 10th December 2017

Post by tinybgoat »

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... heresa-may" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"The New Jerusalem of Brexit is revealing itself to be a mirage" Matthew d'Ancona
S o, here’s an idea: let’s abolish the wheel. Let’s escape the tyranny of the circular device, and spend the money saved on axles, spokes and hubs on – oh, I don’t know – the NHS . Let’s take back control of rotation! But wait a minute. This can’t be done overnight. We shall still need some means of transporting ourselves and our goods until we have formally renounced the wheel, but before we have agreed on a new device. There’ll probably need to be an “implementation period” in which we remain “aligned” with the existing circular format.
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