Saturday 9th & Sunday 10th December 2017

Post by **refitman** » Sat 09 Dec, 2017 8:57 am

Morning all.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sat 09 Dec, 2017 10:15 am

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/gal ... n-pictures" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Bonnylad · Post by **Bonnylad** » Sat 09 Dec, 2017 10:54 am

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fint ... -1.3320096" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 09 Dec, 2017 11:25 am

Bonnylad wrote:https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fint ... -1.3320096

Too soon to say that for sure, but the mere possibility of it has so many historical ironies.

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Sat 09 Dec, 2017 11:44 am

Bonnylad wrote:https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fint ... -1.3320096

Thanks, think this is good too:
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/why- ... 8?mode=amp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

...In the meantime, it would be a blessing if respected commentators, together with statesmen from the past and the present, were to broaden and deepen the debate into its proper constituent parts. This is not just about trade. As the Irish Government has identified, this is about relationships on all of these islands. That is at the heart of it, even more than trade. That is what needs to be discussed. That is the next vital stage of this fascinating and historic moment.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 09 Dec, 2017 12:07 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/ ... r-minehead" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

'Older people have pulled up the ladder': inside England's oldest and youngest towns
Minehead has the oldest population in England, Manchester the youngest. What do they tell us about the way we live now?

A much more nuanced article than the headline suggests, I found this an interesting read. What comes across to me is that the "generational divide" narrative is unhelpful. Yes, there are huge differences between the way the older and younger generations live their lives today and in the past, but what comes across loud and clear is that people of all ages are facing huge challenges and problems in an increasingly splintered society. And family wealth, rather than age, is the main indicator of how well set people are to meet those challenges. Political choices of recent years have been increasing inequality, widening the gap between the haves and have nots and both young and old have been affected, but in different ways - hence young and old are sometimes at odds over how to make things better. And this is a shame because all generations face problems that need addressing and we, as an electorate, should be capable of supporting policies that help everyone at all stages of their life.

Incidentally, the article mentions Watchet, a run down little harbour town east of Minehead - or at least it was. I visited it a couple of years ago and was quite surprised at how smart the place looked compared to how I remembered. So kudos to those trying to turn the place around, they've done a remarkable job.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 09 Dec, 2017 12:12 pm

This Brexit shortcut looks like a dead end
matthew parris

If Britain is heading for a version of the EU-Canada trade deal then we might want to think again about leaving

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/this ... -w8x9tg5td" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 09 Dec, 2017 1:36 pm

@Willow,well said.As much as I get annoyed at the arbitrary date that changes scrounging scum to sainthood on the turn of a day for receiving the same classification of benefit,I equally get annoyed at the east fit "older v young",stuff.Government's love such divisions in the "fairness" comparison downward spiral.Gauke gave a speech about Beveridge prattling about something for nothing,of course the last two Government's have done more to residualise contributional effects more than another other by some degree.To such an extent a created debt is not only seen as acceptable but some kind of generosity if you get sick/disabled,have a partner die,lose your job etc.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 09 Dec, 2017 2:03 pm

I do wonder how those people who grumble about how they don't want to pay for other people's children, of which there seem to be many, cope with paying for their home and car insurance. Paying for other people's flooded homes and automobile write-offs must send them apoplectic. Or would, if their objection was based on objective reasoning, rather than hysterical propaganda in the right wing press.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 09 Dec, 2017 3:21 pm

Good morfternoon.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 09 Dec, 2017 3:39 pm

The same to you, today is a bit of a slow day?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 09 Dec, 2017 3:53 pm

Willow904 wrote:...family wealth, rather than age, is the main indicator of how well set people are to meet those challenges. Political choices of recent years have been increasing inequality, widening the gap between the haves and have nots and both young and old have been affected, but in different ways - hence young and old are sometimes at odds over how to make things better. And this is a shame because all generations face problems that need addressing and we, as an electorate, should be capable of supporting policies that help everyone at all stages of their life.
---

(cJA edit & emphasis)

Yes, resist getting side-tracked and divided along generational lines, it's distracting
There's plenty of resources
We've a distribution problem
No one need be homeless, hungry or without essentials - education, health and social care, appropriate employment, well-funded public services

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 09 Dec, 2017 3:54 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:The same to you, today is a bit of a slow day?

Seems so.

I'm hoping for the best for the poor woman in prison in Iran, but since it's not clear that she's even up for discussion, Boris Johnson won't be speaking to the relevant people, and well, Boris Johnson . . . .

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 09 Dec, 2017 4:18 pm

It's cold and snowing, almost dark, a quarter after four o'clock in the afternoon
I'll put the kettle on
Who's got the baked goods?

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Sat 09 Dec, 2017 5:39 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... -to-be-out" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Hard Brexit is still a clear prospect: and while leftwing and centrist Leavers may see new futures, the right has always envisaged a return to 70s Britain"

..It’s just that Farage and Stuart cannot be as angry as they might seem, because they know the wording of the deal has more holes than a fishing net and can ultimately be interpreted to mean whatever they want.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 09 Dec, 2017 5:44 pm

Its not going to be as easy for them, though, now that a managed Brexit (if you want to call it that rather than "soft") is now firmly established as an option in a way it wasn't before yesterday.

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Sat 09 Dec, 2017 5:51 pm

https://www.conservativehome.com/platfo ... s-why.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Gisela Stuart: Ministers are mistaken. Regulatory alignment is Single Market membership in all but name. Here’s why."
https://www.conservativehome.com/platfo ... -back.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"John Longworth: May has capitulated – and here’s what must be done to fight back"
https://www.conservativehome.com/platfo ... o-now.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"James Arnell: Brexit. What we should do now"
Unhappy Brexiteers.
If they're all so adamant that the agreement so far is wrong & can be changed/got round, then why is Ireland happy to accept it, especially with the 'nothing is agreed until everything is agreed' bit?

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Sat 09 Dec, 2017 6:11 pm

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/don ... 99636.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"I spent the first two decades of my career as a social scientist studying liars and their lies. I thought I had developed a sense of what to expect from them. Then along came President Donald Trump"

By telling so many lies, and so many that are mean-spirited, Trump is violating some of the most fundamental norms of human social interaction and human decency. Many of the rest of us, in turn, have abandoned a norm of our own - we no longer give Trump the benefit of the doubt that we usually give so readily.

One of the comments suggests the author's work is flawed, because he's comparing trump's lies to his studies of students, whereas he should be comparing him to other politicians

Post by **refitman** » Sat 09 Dec, 2017 7:16 pm

Nick Cohen can fuck off. Spite filled bile is a generous description of his latest column.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sat 09 Dec, 2017 7:19 pm

Youcan always read a Labour MP if Cihebn offends

https://www.conservativehome.com/platfo ... s-why.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **refitman** » Sat 09 Dec, 2017 7:30 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:Youcan always read a Labour MP if Cihebn offends

https://www.conservativehome.com/platfo ... s-why.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Well, she starts by saying "we're leaving the EU, why haven't they thought up an easy way to do this?". Standard Leave bollocks.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sat 09 Dec, 2017 7:36 pm

refitman wrote:Nick Cohen can fuck off. Spite filled bile is a generous description of his latest column.

The answer to Cohen's question is "An attempt t bring back Jeremy's close friend Galloway"

Which just shows how useless and unprincipled the Labour moderates are.

Vote for an anti Brexit party instead.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 09 Dec, 2017 7:44 pm

This "Galloway set to rejoin Labour" bollocks gets reheated every so often, and the usual suspects lap it up.

Please look at what Corbyn's spokesperson actually said would have to happen for him to be readmitted.

I can say with great confidence that there is next to no chance of these things happening.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sat 09 Dec, 2017 7:52 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:This "Galloway set to rejoin Labour" bollocks gets reheated every so often, and the usual suspects lap it up.

Please look at what Corbyn's spokesperson actually said would have to happen for him to be readmitted.

I can say with great confidence that there is next to no chance of these things happening.

Of course . That is the point. It is the only red line he knows he cannot cross. They'll swallow Murray, Fisher, Milne. Lansman etc.

Pathetic.

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Sat 09 Dec, 2017 8:15 pm

"Corbyn to allow eating of babies, shock."
"umm, no he's not"
"hah, exactly! It's the only thing he knows he won't get away with"
?

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sat 09 Dec, 2017 8:20 pm

tinybgoat wrote:"Corbyn to allow eating of babies, shock."
"umm, no he's not"
"hah, exactly! It's the only thing he knows he won't get away with"
?

Murray, Fisher, Milne, Lansman.

They're just less high profile than Galloway, that is all.

Post by **refitman** » Sat 09 Dec, 2017 8:30 pm

Reds under the bed!!

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sat 09 Dec, 2017 8:42 pm

refitman wrote:Reds under the bed!!

What these people think is a matter of public record. They're not under any beds.

Post by **adam** » Sat 09 Dec, 2017 9:45 pm

In my respectful opinion, your only honourable response will be to stop being a fucking fool by changing your fucking mind.

Only honourable response to Nick Cohen is to quote himself back at him.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 09 Dec, 2017 10:04 pm

So no baked goods
fine

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Sat 09 Dec, 2017 10:11 pm

adam wrote:
In my respectful opinion, your only honourable response will be to stop being a fucking fool by changing your fucking mind.
Only honourable response to Nick Cohen is to quote himself back at him.

The first minute of this is delicious --

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[youtube]getG0kXj1RY[/youtube]

Post by **refitman** » Sat 09 Dec, 2017 10:14 pm

@frog222 - remove the

Code: Select all

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

from the link between the youtube tags.

Post by **adam** » Sat 09 Dec, 2017 10:45 pm

citizenJA wrote:So no baked goods
fine

Crumble, anyone?

After a week that saw May reach a deal with the EU that will allow Brexit talks to move forward on to future trade relations, EU officials insisted a bespoke deal more favourable to the UK than other non-EU nations was out of the question.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 09 Dec, 2017 10:46 pm

Night night.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 09 Dec, 2017 10:48 pm

PorFavor wrote:Night night.

Goodnight, PorFavor

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 09 Dec, 2017 10:49 pm

@adam

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Sat 09 Dec, 2017 10:50 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ent-rebels" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Theresa May faces first Brexit bill defeat, say Commons rebels"

Theresa May is facing her first Commons defeat on her
Brexit bill within days, amid a last-minute plea to pro-European Tories to force a “truly meaningful vote” on Britain’s final EU deal.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 09 Dec, 2017 11:16 pm

I was looking for what I thought was an established homily something to the effect, 'for every lie told, seven more are necessary and it's a drag...'.
The internet search engine I used led me to the following blog having nothing to do with the homily.

Equipping & Encouraging People in Cultural Transition
http://www.thecultureblend.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.thecultureblend.com/the-seve ... ulturally/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I've only begun reading but what I've read so far helps me make sense of my own experiences.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 09 Dec, 2017 11:17 pm

Goodnight, everyone
stay warm & sound off if you need help
love,
cJA

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Sat 09 Dec, 2017 11:18 pm

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12 ... oncession/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Cabinet Brexit truce threatens to unravel as Leavers 'told concession to EU meaningless'"

A senior Eurosceptic with knowledge of the discussions involving Cabinet ministers, including Mr Johnson and Mr Gove, told The Telegraph that No 10 had said a commitment to “full alignment” between the UK and the EU “doesn’t mean anything in EU law”.

A separate source confirmed that a specific Cabinet minister had been told by No 10 aides that the provision was “meaningless” and was simply included to secure Ireland’s approval for the document.

From Telegraph, so rest of article behind paywall.

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Sat 09 Dec, 2017 11:40 pm

refitman wrote:@frog222 - remove the
Code: Select all
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=
from the link between the youtube tags.

Everything before and including the equal sign ?

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[youtube]zQx-4EXofTQ[/youtube]

GOOD, many thanks !

Post by **adam** » Sat 09 Dec, 2017 11:59 pm

tinybgoat wrote:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12 ... oncession/
"Cabinet Brexit truce threatens to unravel as Leavers 'told concession to EU meaningless'"
A senior Eurosceptic with knowledge of the discussions involving Cabinet ministers, including Mr Johnson and Mr Gove, told The Telegraph that No 10 had said a commitment to “full alignment” between the UK and the EU “doesn’t mean anything in EU law”.

A separate source confirmed that a specific Cabinet minister had been told by No 10 aides that the provision was “meaningless” and was simply included to secure Ireland’s approval for the document.
From Telegraph, so rest of article behind paywall.

I think the government keep using these words and phrases - alignment / divergence and so on - as though they are in control of what they mean. As with the wasted months before this week's deals, their views on what things mean don't matter spit compared to what the rest of the EU know they mean.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 10 Dec, 2017 9:33 am

Starmer stunningly useless on Marr.

Even allowing for the constraints he is under from the leadership favouring leaving the CU and SM, he is hopeless.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 10 Dec, 2017 9:45 am

And now we have Davis trying to blag his way out of having no impact assessments.

Don't vote for either of these Brexit parties.

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Sun 10 Dec, 2017 9:53 am

“”“If we were to give the UK a very lopsided deal, then the other partners with whom we have been engaging and who entered into balanced agreements would come back and question those agreements.”“”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... eal-for-uk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Forriners !

Zoe Williams sensible on R4 Broadcasting House earlier, the saboteuse

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 10 Dec, 2017 10:16 am

https://mainlymacro.blogspot.co.uk/2017 ... iters.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

First Stage Reality and Brexiters

Wren-Lewis

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sun 10 Dec, 2017 10:17 am

SpinningHugo wrote:Starmer stunningly useless on Marr.

Even allowing for the constraints he is under from the leadership favouring leaving the CU and SM, he is hopeless.

Hugo Starmer's not a TV celeb never will be.

At his best, unsurprisingly, working through the detail and performing in the House.

I didn't watch it, but Twitter response was relatively positive I'd say. People at least seem to believe him, unlike Davis.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sun 10 Dec, 2017 10:22 am

Wren-Lewis
https://mainlymacro.blogspot.co.uk/2017 ... iters.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Why then are the Brexiters not up in arms? It is partly because the agreement plays on their lack of realism, as I suggested two days ago. The UK government and Brexiters still pretend that they can, through some magical means, avoid a hard border. Given that belief, how can they object to this fall back position?

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 10 Dec, 2017 10:25 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:Starmer stunningly useless on Marr.

Even allowing for the constraints he is under from the leadership favouring leaving the CU and SM, he is hopeless.
Hugo Starmer's not a TV celeb never will be.

At his best, unsurprisingly, working through the detail and performing in the House.

I didn't watch it, but Twitter response was relatively positive I'd say. People at least seem to believe him, unlike Davis.

And what a triumph he has been at that. Brilliantly putting together an alliance of the opposition and Tory soft Brexiteers to pass amendment after amendment.

To think this hopeless man was once thought of as leadership potential!

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sun 10 Dec, 2017 10:27 am

Oops, sorry A.