Wednesday 13th December 2017.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 13 Dec, 2017 7:01 pm

PorFavor wrote:
Grieve says latest concession is 'too late'

Dominic Grieve intervenes. He says Raab’s latest concession (see 6.47pm) is “too late”.
(Politics Live, Guardian)

All the concessions offered could be instantly fulfilled by the government by withdrawing clause 9, so why would the rebels be reassured by a promise to do later what could just as easily be done now? If the rebels are ever going to make a stand, they need to make it now, I think. They have a good defence against any leave voter backlash in that they are trying to maintain Parliament's sovereignty.

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Wed 13 Dec, 2017 7:14 pm

http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Inde ... 1d0bebb48b" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 13 Dec, 2017 7:15 pm

Government loss.

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Wed 13 Dec, 2017 7:16 pm

Order papers being waved

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 13 Dec, 2017 7:18 pm

Unlock Democracy‏
@UnlockDemocracy

The government has LOST the vote on amendment 7 by a whisker of 309-305 votes.

The AYES have it.

Parliament will have a binding vote on the final deal.

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Wed 13 Dec, 2017 7:19 pm

hellish inefficient innit

A good channel tho, only began using it for the DD interrogations last week

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 13 Dec, 2017 7:21 pm

Tellers on left from Speakers perspective have won hence people know before announcing.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 13 Dec, 2017 7:22 pm

Laura Kuenssberg‏Verified account
@bbclaurak
4m4 minutes ago
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So May has lost for first time in commons on her plans- ministers on front bench look like they feel sick

Excellent.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 13 Dec, 2017 7:23 pm

As I'm sure most of you already know -

The government defeated by 309 votes to 305 - a majority of 4

The government has been defeated by 309 votes to 305 - a majority of 4.
(Politics Live, Guardian)

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 13 Dec, 2017 7:24 pm

HindleA wrote:Government loss.

Should have guessed you'd get in first.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 13 Dec, 2017 7:26 pm

Laura Kuenssberg‏Verified account
@bbclaurak

Rebels and labour both thought they had lost !
7:18 PM - 13 Dec 2017

If true, maybe explains why May risked the vote. Did some of the Tory rebels keep their intentions quiet in order to catch her out and thus ensure the amendment was passed? Will be interesting to see who they were.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 13 Dec, 2017 7:26 pm

Don't you start missus.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 13 Dec, 2017 7:29 pm

I can't help thinking that we've got to give David Davis a sort of vote of thanks for this outcome. I imagine Dominic Raab's intervention (as if he wasn't slippery enough taken on his own) was viewed through the prism of DD's track record for trustworthiness and truthfulness.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 13 Dec, 2017 7:32 pm

Jessica Elgot
✔
@jessicaelgot

Seems Labour Brexiteers made key difference. Some key MPs who normally vote with government on Brexit matters voted for Grieve amendment.
7:26 PM - Dec 13, 2017 · London, England (Politics Live, Guardian)

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 13 Dec, 2017 7:35 pm

Oh - Kate Hoey voted with the government, it's thought. What a gal!

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 13 Dec, 2017 7:35 pm

Also.Field apparently,12/13 Tories with Labour, Skinner for,Stringer ill.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 13 Dec, 2017 7:40 pm

Mark D'Arcy‏Verified account
@DArcyTiP

This doesn’t stop Govt revisiting the issue at Report Stage & seeking to over-write the Grieve amdt with their own wording.....

Ah but surely the Commons vote gives the House of Lords real power to intervene now? This defeat can only make it much, much harder for her to appropriate control of Brexit and go over Parliament's head.

Post by **refitman** » Wed 13 Dec, 2017 7:47 pm

Oh my good god, Soubry actually rebelled!!?!?!?

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 13 Dec, 2017 7:49 pm

Ministers will now be under strong pressure to drop the amendment to the bill fixing 29 March 2019 as Brexit day. It is due to be put to the vote next week, but after tonight’s defeat Downing Street may conclude that that they will lose on that one too.

(From G live blog)

Pointless amendment anyway. Presumably it was some kind of sop to the ultra Brexiters.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 13 Dec, 2017 8:04 pm

Oops.

Sam Coates Times‏Verified account
@SamCoatesTimes
22m22 minutes ago
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Hearing Stephen Hammond - a leading Tory rebel in tonight's vote - just sacked as a Vice Chairman of the Conservative party.

Number 10 is no longer in listening mode

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 13 Dec, 2017 8:05 pm

The Brexit department has just issued this statement about the defeat. A spokesman said:

We are disappointed that parliament has voted for this amendment despite the strong assurances that we have set out.

We are as clear as ever that this bill, and the powers within it, are essential.

This amendment does not prevent us from preparing our statute book for exit day. We will now determine whether further changes are needed to the bill to ensure it fulfils its vital purpose.

It is not entirely clear what this means. (Politics Live, Guardian - my emphasis)

Nothing has changed.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 13 Dec, 2017 8:11 pm

Stephen Hammond (one of the Conservative rebels) has just been sacked (Sky TV news).

I'm not sure what he's been sacked from, mind.

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Wed 13 Dec, 2017 8:13 pm

Chris Leslie taking the piss on availability( or not) of " impact assessments" of annulling hundreds of treaties made while in the EU

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 13 Dec, 2017 8:14 pm

Keir Starmer is putting in a good turn in a lobby interview. He's coming over as much more human than he usually does.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 13 Dec, 2017 8:15 pm

Oh good grief...

Tim Montgomerie ن‏Verified account
@montie
38m38 minutes ago
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Well done Dominic Grieve and the Tories who voted with him. You’ve completely undermined the Prime Minister in her negotiations with the EU. Her word means almost nothing now.

All of the anti-Parliamentarians showing their true colours now

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 13 Dec, 2017 8:16 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:Oops.

Sam Coates Times‏Verified account
@SamCoatesTimes
22m22 minutes ago
More
Hearing Stephen Hammond - a leading Tory rebel in tonight's vote - just sacked as a Vice Chairman of the Conservative party.

Number 10 is no longer in listening mode

You beat me to it and answered my implicit question at the same time!

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 13 Dec, 2017 8:19 pm

Wonderful news.

Above all a vote for democratic accountability. Brilliant.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 13 Dec, 2017 8:20 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:Oh good grief...

Tim Montgomerie ن‏Verified account
@montie
38m38 minutes ago
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Well done Dominic Grieve and the Tories who voted with him. You’ve completely undermined the Prime Minister in her negotiations with the EU. Her word means almost nothing now.

What does he mean "now"?

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 13 Dec, 2017 8:23 pm

I'm reading that Hoey and Field voted with the Government.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 13 Dec, 2017 8:24 pm

Good to see the "You wanted Parliamentary control - well now you have it" message being posted with some glee here.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 13 Dec, 2017 8:30 pm

Night night.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 13 Dec, 2017 8:45 pm

Words fail - this is a back bencher who clearly thinks the Executive should have it all their own way. Moron.

Nadine Dorries‏Verified account
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Tonight, the Tory rebels have put a spring in Labours step, given them a taste of winning, guaranteed the party a weekend of bad press, undermined the PM and devalued her impact in Brussels. They should be deselected and never allowed to stand as a Tory MP, ever again.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 13 Dec, 2017 8:56 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... heresa-may" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tory-brexit-rebels-inflict-major-defeat-on-theresa-may

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 13 Dec, 2017 9:11 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:Oh good grief...
Tim Montgomerie ن‏Verified account
@montie
38m38 minutes ago
More
Well done Dominic Grieve and the Tories who voted with him. You’ve completely undermined the Prime Minister in her negotiations with the EU. Her word means almost nothing now.
All of the anti-Parliamentarians showing their true colours now

Why do you hate democracy, Tim?

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 13 Dec, 2017 9:13 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... heresa-may

tory-brexit-rebels-inflict-major-defeat-on-theresa-may

I don't think it matters.

The art 50 process means we leave in March 2019 unless the other EU27 agree to delay the process, regardless of Parliament. They took the important decision age ago, Labour supporting the government.

The effective decision then will be a no deal Brexit, or the deal the government has agreed. As the latter will be better than the car crash of the former, that will be that.

Politically, I also think this bad news for Labour. It will be a re-run of the art 50 vote. Either Labour backs Brexit or it doesn't. There may be a few doughty rebels, as there were last time, but I'd expect Corbyn and McDonnell to whip again for Brexit. For two reasons. First that is what they want. Second it is Labour's tactic to be ever so slightly more Remain-y than the government. So, as the government moves an inch away from Hard Brexit, Labour moves an inch further. Electorally, it has been a triumph. Just a disaster for the people Labour purports to represent.

The real fight is, no doubt, still about to start.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 13 Dec, 2017 9:22 pm

PorFavor wrote:Night night.

Goodnight, PorFavor

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 13 Dec, 2017 9:22 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... heresa-may

tory-brexit-rebels-inflict-major-defeat-on-theresa-may

I don't think it matters.

The art 50 process means we leave in March 2019 unless the other EU27 agree to delay the process, regardless of Parliament. They took the important decision age ago, Labour supporting the government.

The effective decision then will be a no deal Brexit, or the deal the government has agreed. As the latter will be better than the car crash of the former, that will be that.

Politically, I also think this bad news for Labour. It will be a re-run of the art 50 vote. Either Labour backs Brexit or it doesn't. There may be a few doughty rebels, as there were last time, but I'd expect Corbyn and McDonnell to whip again for Brexit. For two reasons. First that is what they want. Second it is Labour's tactic to be ever so slightly more Remain-y than the government. So, as the government moves an inch away from Hard Brexit, Labour moves an inch further. Electorally, it has been a triumph. Just a disaster for the people Labour purports to represent.

The real fight is, no doubt, still about to start.

Vote Green.

This is NOT a campaigning site. It's not OK to come here with your 'Vote Green' propaganda. Please take it elsewhere.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Wed 13 Dec, 2017 9:25 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... heresa-may

tory-brexit-rebels-inflict-major-defeat-on-theresa-may

I don't think it matters.

The art 50 process means we leave in March 2019 unless the other EU27 agree to delay the process, regardless of Parliament. They took the important decision age ago, Labour supporting the government.

The effective decision then will be a no deal Brexit, or the deal the government has agreed. As the latter will be better than the car crash of the former, that will be that.

Politically, I also think this bad news for Labour. It will be a re-run of the art 50 vote. Either Labour backs Brexit or it doesn't. There may be a few doughty rebels, as there were last time, but I'd expect Corbyn and McDonnell to whip again for Brexit. For two reasons. First that is what they want. Second it is Labour's tactic to be ever so slightly more Remain-y than the government. So, as the government moves an inch away from Hard Brexit, Labour moves an inch further. Electorally, it has been a triumph. Just a disaster for the people Labour purports to represent.

The real fight is, no doubt, still about to start.

Vote Green.
This is NOT a campaigning site. It's not OK to come here with your 'Vote Green' propaganda. Please take it elsewhere.

Is there a forum rule about this that I am unaware of? Or is it just that you don't like it?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 13 Dec, 2017 9:27 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Wonderful news.

Above all a vote for democratic accountability. Brilliant.

Yes. Why is it regarded as controversial?

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Wed 13 Dec, 2017 9:29 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:Moron.

We knew before.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 13 Dec, 2017 9:31 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote: I don't think it matters.

The art 50 process means we leave in March 2019 unless the other EU27 agree to delay the process, regardless of Parliament. They took the important decision age ago, Labour supporting the government.

The effective decision then will be a no deal Brexit, or the deal the government has agreed. As the latter will be better than the car crash of the former, that will be that.

Politically, I also think this bad news for Labour. It will be a re-run of the art 50 vote. Either Labour backs Brexit or it doesn't. There may be a few doughty rebels, as there were last time, but I'd expect Corbyn and McDonnell to whip again for Brexit. For two reasons. First that is what they want. Second it is Labour's tactic to be ever so slightly more Remain-y than the government. So, as the government moves an inch away from Hard Brexit, Labour moves an inch further. Electorally, it has been a triumph. Just a disaster for the people Labour purports to represent.

The real fight is, no doubt, still about to start.

Vote Green.
This is NOT a campaigning site. It's not OK to come here with your 'Vote Green' propaganda. Please take it elsewhere.
Is there a forum rule about this that I am unaware of? Or is it just that you don't like it?

I don't like it. I don't think anyone else likes it. So whether there's a rule or not I think you should desist.

My dictionary says a Forum is "an Internet site where users can post comments about a particular issue or topic and reply to other users' postings; a message board".

This is a Forum. I don't think "Vote Green" is either a comment or a reply.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 13 Dec, 2017 9:36 pm

citizenJA wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Wonderful news.

Above all a vote for democratic accountability. Brilliant.
Yes. Why is it regarded as controversial?

Defying the will of the people innit?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 13 Dec, 2017 9:40 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Wonderful news.

Above all a vote for democratic accountability. Brilliant.
Yes. Why is it regarded as controversial?
Defying the will of the people innit?

Who made Will People dictator?
That's wasn't on the any ballot

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 13 Dec, 2017 9:41 pm

Will was always bossy

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 13 Dec, 2017 9:41 pm

Goodnight, everyone
love,
cJA

Post by **adam** » Wed 13 Dec, 2017 10:13 pm

citizenJA wrote:Who made Will People dictator?
That's wasn't on the any ballot

Bill Stickers Is Innocent!

By way of an explanation to anybody who didn't live in London in the 70s

I also grew up sure that my first swear word was 'LEB OFF'.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 13 Dec, 2017 10:18 pm

David Schneider‏Verified account
@davidschneider
58m58 minutes ago
More
23 June 2016:
The country votes to “make Parliament sovereign”.
Brexiters are delirious.

13 December 2017:
Parliament votes to make Parliament sovereign.
Brexiters are furious.

Yes, there's a fair number of people making themselves look ridiculous right now.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 13 Dec, 2017 10:29 pm

Anyway, I had another interesting day in the library poring over building plans - some answered questions, others not quite.

And I got invited to Xmas dinner in the town hall with all of the heritage section staff which was kind of them. I seem to be turning into a local historian...

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 13 Dec, 2017 11:17 pm

See below

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 13 Dec, 2017 11:18 pm

Dearie me...the Mail front page.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Maybe people jeering at Hope Not hate's campaign to boycott papers like this might see their point.