FlyTheNest

Posted: **Sun 17 Dec, 2017 5:43 pm**

HindleA wrote:https://mainlymacro.blogspot.co.uk/2017 ... ation.html

The politicisation of immigration

Wren-Lewis

"The key point of this post is that what happened in the Brexit vote was simply what right wing politicians and newspapers have been trying to do for nearly 20 years: use immigration as a way of preventing socially conservative left wing voters from going with Labour."

Good article from Wren-Lewis
Intentional divisiveness cultivated by a few serving their selfish purposes at the expense of many is wicked.

Posted: **Sun 17 Dec, 2017 6:31 pm**

He is becoming one of the few "must-read" commentators.

Posted: **Sun 17 Dec, 2017 6:39 pm**

Good posts from you over yonda, AK

Posted: **Sun 17 Dec, 2017 6:58 pm**

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 15171.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Man upset about the very "aggression and unpleasantness" he promotes

Posted: **Sun 17 Dec, 2017 7:04 pm**

http://press.labour.org.uk/post/1686433 ... -to-rip-up" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Labour Press
Senior Tories want to use Brexit to rip up workers’ rights – Rebecca Long-Bailey

Posted: **Sun 17 Dec, 2017 7:06 pm**

http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2017 ... k-workers/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Brexit to be funded by the exploitation of UK workers

Posted: **Sun 17 Dec, 2017 7:07 pm**

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/polit ... s-11710779" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Brexit threat to paid holidays as Tories plan to scrap EU rules on workers' rights
Unions have hit out at a 'ministerial plot' by Brexiteers to bin rules which ensure workers are paid for holidays.

Posted: **Sun 17 Dec, 2017 7:07 pm**

Still. Taking back control.

Posted: **Sun 17 Dec, 2017 7:09 pm**

Yes thanks for Wren-Lewis article.

I have my own personal diagnosis of the Brexit vote that I was thinking about after the Barnsley Question Time the other day.

For me, it's quite simple. There are huge swathes of the country away from London and some other cosmopolitan hotspots that have never recovered from the 2008 crash. If you live in Barnsley, life now is harder than pre-2008.

This would make you want to look for someone to blame. Largely of course the blame lies with Cameron and Osborne and all those who voted for them. But they were utterly expert in deflecting the blame. Towards "scroungers". Towards immigrants. And yes towards Brussels.

What continues to be missing is completely justified rage against the London establishment . London drove the 2008 crash, yet still prospers. I love the place, but it would be better if we acknowledged that the idea that it underpins the UK economy is massively flakey.

Posted: **Sun 17 Dec, 2017 7:09 pm**

tinyclanger2 wrote:http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 15171.html
Man upset about the very "aggression and unpleasantness" he promotes

I just about managed to thank you through my tears and inbetween sobs.

Posted: **Sun 17 Dec, 2017 7:18 pm**

And it's been pointed out that this contradicts their own manifesto.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Shocked etc.

Posted: **Sun 17 Dec, 2017 7:38 pm**

tinyclanger2 wrote:http://press.labour.org.uk/post/1686433 ... -to-rip-up
Labour Press
Senior Tories want to use Brexit to rip up workers’ rights – Rebecca Long-Bailey

https://campaign.goingtowork.org.uk/pet ... =tuc-email" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hands off our holidays: Don’t let Boris and Gove scrap our working time rights

A TUC petition , but it wasn't one to the Gov't which I think would be more powerful ?

Posted: **Sun 17 Dec, 2017 7:43 pm**

Hopeful poll here, in a conservative journal too ! Interesting that not ALL Fox is as biased as Trump’s favourite part …

“” Which brings me to those poll numbers. Suffolk University and USA Today released a poll this week, which found that among people who trust Fox News the most, the president’s approval rating has been sinking. His favorability among Fox devotees in June was 90 percent. In October, it was 74 percent. This week? Fifty-eight percent. If that trend continues, he will be underwater with the Fox audience long before the 2018 midterms.

You can cry “fake polls,” as Trump often does. But was the same poll fake in June? Or are the same trends that led to Trump’s historically abysmal approval ratings now reaching even the Fox faithful? From Virginia to Oklahoma to Alabama, establishment and anti-establishment GOP candidates alike have lost in large part because Democrats, Independents and a significant number of Republicans disapprove of Trump more than they approve of him.

His pander-to-the-base approach still does wonders for Hannity & Co.’s ratings, but ratings aren’t votes. “”

Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/4 ... val-rating" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The worm turns, as on brexit ?

I hope so

frog2222

Posted: **Sun 17 Dec, 2017 7:51 pm**

tinyclanger2 wrote:http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2017 ... k-workers/
Brexit to be funded by the exploitation of UK workers

I don't check Richard Murphy every day, but like Wren-Lewis (AnatolyK) he is on my list of valuable blogs !

I argued during the EU referendum campaign that few organisations had been as good for the rights of UK workers as the EU. Whether it be on holiday pay, equality rights, equal rights for part time employees and the right to reasonable working hours it by and large led the way, and the UK followed. It was, I argued, a reason for staying in as the likelihood was that those wanting Brexit wanted to remove some or all of those hard won rights.

The evidence that I (and others, of course) was right is beginning to emerge, As The Sunday Times (paywall) reports today of Cabinet meetings planned for this week which will finally discuss what the Cabinet wants of Brexit:

Gove and other ministers will use tomorrow’s meeting to call for Britain to abandon the EU working time directive, which restricts the working week to 48 hours.

So now we know that the £350 million it to be paid for by exploiting British workers who will no longer have the right to go home when they want, and who will be exposed to greater risk as a a result. You couldn't make it up.

The TUC has already launched a petition on the issue, here. I hope you might join me in signing it.

Signed, but I think it would be better to do one to Number Ten ?

Posted: **Sun 17 Dec, 2017 8:13 pm**

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Funicular railway: Switzerland launches world's steepest service

Posted: **Sun 17 Dec, 2017 8:23 pm**

"The village of Stoos is set in a delightful alpine landscape at the foot of the Fronalpstock mountain, on a sunny alpine plateau of the same name at about 1300 m. Stoos is reached by funicular railway via Schlattli (from Schwyz on the road to Muotathal) or from Morschach by cable-car. The little village, with its hotels, holiday apartments and group accommodation is an ideal holiday destination for families.

Fronalpstock (1,922 meters) is the local mountain that can be reached on foot or with one of the cable cars. From this imposing viewpoint (where there is overnight accommodation), there is an impressive panoramic view of ten lakes, down to Brunnen and over to the Rütli, Pilatus, Rigi, Säntis, the high Alps and the central lowlands as far as the Jura."

Stoosschwinget – this festival, first held in 1921, is the first of a series of alpine Swiss wrestling festivals, with a small wrestling ground for spectators and fantastic panoramic views (June).

Posted: **Sun 17 Dec, 2017 8:36 pm**

Not much praise on here for Dennis Brexit Skinner and his amusing heckles. Unlike another place.

Posted: **Sun 17 Dec, 2017 8:42 pm**

SpinningHugo wrote:Not much praise on here for Dennis Brexit Skinner and his amusing heckles. Unlike another place.

*Takes the bait...

Why whats he said/done now ?

Posted: **Sun 17 Dec, 2017 8:50 pm**

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Yes thanks for Wren-Lewis article.

I have my own personal diagnosis of the Brexit vote that I was thinking about after the Barnsley Question Time the other day.

For me, it's quite simple. There are huge swathes of the country away from London and some other cosmopolitan hotspots that have never recovered from the 2008 crash. If you live in Barnsley, life now is harder than pre-2008.

This would make you want to look for someone to blame. Largely of course the blame lies with Cameron and Osborne and all those who voted for them. But they were utterly expert in deflecting the blame. Towards "scroungers". Towards immigrants. And yes towards Brussels.

What continues to be missing is completely justified rage against the London establishment . London drove the 2008 crash, yet still prospers. I love the place, but it would be better if we acknowledged that the idea that it underpins the UK economy is massively flakey.

Sad to remember that LABOUR began the attack on 'scroungers' = the punitive and privatised WCA , and so much bloody PFI !

Blair encouraged unlimited immediate and even 'encouraged' immigration, which was a disaster . Worthy studies tell us that it encouraged economic growth without any negative effects ... but they missed out on the wider effects .

This one from Ebbw Vale is a must read, going back much further than 2008 --

https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/ ... -ebbw-vale" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Another from Wm Keegan combines brexit and thatcherisation --

""Which brings us to the real problem that has engulfed otherwise sensible Remain MPs: most of them have been so pusillanimous in the face of their “left behind” constituents that they have forgotten Edmund Burke’s dictum that their duty is to be representatives, not delegates – to apply their judgment, not act as conduits for prejudices they do not share.

My impression is that the despair, indeed anger, felt by “left behind” Brexit voters is the accumulated result of the Thatcher regime’s neglect of the north and manufacturing, compounded by the impact of globalisation: as analysts are pointing out a lot these days, the losers from globalisation have simply not been compensated from a pot whose proceeds should have been distributed more equitably.""

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... oters-hope" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Plenty to be going on with !

Posted: **Sun 17 Dec, 2017 8:50 pm**

Longest serving Labour MP ever.

Posted: **Sun 17 Dec, 2017 8:51 pm**

AngryAsWell wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:Not much praise on here for Dennis Brexit Skinner and his amusing heckles. Unlike another place.
*Takes the bait...

Why whats he said/done now ?

I'll take any bait, what's the other place ?

Posted: **Sun 17 Dec, 2017 8:56 pm**

SH just being an arsehole for being an arsehole's sake.

Posted: **Sun 17 Dec, 2017 8:58 pm**

frog222 wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:Not much praise on here for Dennis Brexit Skinner and his amusing heckles. Unlike another place.
*Takes the bait...

Why whats he said/done now ?
I'll take any bait, what's the other place ?

It's a different forum with members who used to post here, but seldom do these days

Posted: **Sun 17 Dec, 2017 9:02 pm**

Incalcuable amounts to sick/disabled workers,he was a panel representative, industrial units and a new junction on the. M1,etc.

Posted: **Sun 17 Dec, 2017 9:04 pm**

Please stop aiding his divisive nastiness,cheers.

Posted: **Sun 17 Dec, 2017 9:06 pm**

HindleA wrote:SH just being an arsehole for being an arsehole's sake.

I think we could just say he is an arsehole and leave it at that

As to the funicular....they are everywhere over here (including inside some of the mountains for military purposes) and are always good fun going up - this one looks particular fun though (and will no doubt be expensive as well)

Schwyz is one of the original cantons and is still living in around the 17th century - not the most progressive of areas and not welcoming to outsiders. Also, one of the very low tax cantons too so quite a lot of companies and wealthy people try to get to live there

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canton_of_Schwyz" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Posted: **Sun 17 Dec, 2017 9:09 pm**

Night night.

Posted: **Sun 17 Dec, 2017 9:13 pm**

I coaxed you out to post.I am thinking of "running" I use the term loosely different/new overseas marathons and briefly considered alpine/mountainous,when I say briefly I mean less than a nanosecond,most likely City ones but looking at other places to visit as well.

Posted: **Sun 17 Dec, 2017 9:17 pm**

frog222 wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Yes thanks for Wren-Lewis article.

I have my own personal diagnosis of the Brexit vote that I was thinking about after the Barnsley Question Time the other day.

For me, it's quite simple. There are huge swathes of the country away from London and some other cosmopolitan hotspots that have never recovered from the 2008 crash. If you live in Barnsley, life now is harder than pre-2008.

This would make you want to look for someone to blame. Largely of course the blame lies with Cameron and Osborne and all those who voted for them. But they were utterly expert in deflecting the blame. Towards "scroungers". Towards immigrants. And yes towards Brussels.

What continues to be missing is completely justified rage against the London establishment . London drove the 2008 crash, yet still prospers. I love the place, but it would be better if we acknowledged that the idea that it underpins the UK economy is massively flakey.
Sad to remember that LABOUR began the attack on 'scroungers' = the punitive and privatised WCA , and so much bloody PFI !

Blair encouraged unlimited immediate and even 'encouraged' immigration, which was a disaster . Worthy studies tell us that it encouraged economic growth without any negative effects ... but they missed out on the wider effects .

This one from Ebbw Vale is a must read, going back much further than 2008 --

https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/ ... -ebbw-vale" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Another from Wm Keegan combines brexit and thatcherisation --

""Which brings us to the real problem that has engulfed otherwise sensible Remain MPs: most of them have been so pusillanimous in the face of their “left behind” constituents that they have forgotten Edmund Burke’s dictum that their duty is to be representatives, not delegates – to apply their judgment, not act as conduits for prejudices they do not share.

My impression is that the despair, indeed anger, felt by “left behind” Brexit voters is the accumulated result of the Thatcher regime’s neglect of the north and manufacturing, compounded by the impact of globalisation: as analysts are pointing out a lot these days, the losers from globalisation have simply not been compensated from a pot whose proceeds should have been distributed more equitably.""

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... oters-hope" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Plenty to be going on with !

Hi Frog

Indeed. You'll see my comments were directed at the London establishment not just at the Tories!

Posted: **Sun 17 Dec, 2017 9:17 pm**

M. Grenouille

I think we can say that the board went through a difficult time and it led to people finding their own space. Most of the emotion has dissipated now and there are some who of us who move between both and others who don't. That is up to each person

There is still a lot of cross-fertilisation between the boards and I think quite a lot of people read even if they don't contribute.......

The only person who seems to find this much of a problem now is Hugo and he is not particularly welcomed because of his joy in provoking division if he can - I find him amusing if a little boring and challenged

Posted: **Sun 17 Dec, 2017 9:20 pm**

AngryAsWell wrote:
frog222 wrote:[quote="AngryAsWell"SpinningHugo"]Not much praise on here for Dennis Brexit Skinner and his amusing heckles. Unlike another place.

*Takes the bait...

Why whats he said/done now ?
I'll take any bait, what's the other place ?

It's a different forum with members who used to post here, but seldom do these days[/quote]

In the interest of Transparency you really should give me the address !

I'm quite a big boy, class of 1947, and am not afraid of much

Posted: **Sun 17 Dec, 2017 9:20 pm**

HindleA wrote:I coaxed you out to post.I am thinking of "running" I use the term loosely different/new overseas marathons and briefly considered alpine/mountainous,when I say briefly I mean less than a nanosecond,most likely City ones but looking at other places to visit as well.

Some at work do some of the crazy mountain runs.....leave them to it

Posted: **Sun 17 Dec, 2017 9:26 pm**

@frog222 - PM'd you.

Posted: **Sun 17 Dec, 2017 9:28 pm**

howsillyofme1 wrote:
HindleA wrote:I coaxed you out to post.I am thinking of "running" I use the term loosely different/new overseas marathons and briefly considered alpine/mountainous,when I say briefly I mean less than a nanosecond,most likely City ones but looking at other places to visit as well.
Some at work do some of the crazy mountain runs.....leave them to it

Frog4 my second daughter is into triathlons, now roping in her husband and eldest son of approaching 11 yo.

One of her cousines attempted the IronMan , something like 180km of bike, 4 of swimming, and a half-marathon to finish off .

She gave up halfway through the running bit .

Posted: **Sun 17 Dec, 2017 9:33 pm**

Some interesting discussion of the new poll on EU membership at UKPR

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/9961" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There is a far more strident Brexit support over there so if people want to make it their main subject of debate....rather than haranguing those of us who voted Remain and would do so agai. (but don't agree with some of the tactical suggestions made by fellow Remainers) why not go over there and try to change the mind of some of those who voted Leave last time

One person on here is so sure of their intelligence, persuasiveness and argument that it would surely be a cinch

PS just to make it clear none of the above refers to Willow, Tubby, AAW and others who make their points well most of the time

Posted: **Sun 17 Dec, 2017 9:35 pm**

frog222 wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
HindleA wrote:I coaxed you out to post.I am thinking of "running" I use the term loosely different/new overseas marathons and briefly considered alpine/mountainous,when I say briefly I mean less than a nanosecond,most likely City ones but looking at other places to visit as well.
Some at work do some of the crazy mountain runs.....leave them to it
Frog4 my second daughter is into triathlons, now roping in her husband and eldest son of approaching 11 yo.

One of her cousines attempted the IronMan , something like 180km of bike, 4 of swimming, and a half-marathon to finish off .

She gave up halfway through the running bit .

There are some crazy mountain Ironmen....I have a mate who did one that finished with a marathon up Snowdon......jeez

Posted: **Sun 17 Dec, 2017 9:41 pm**

Done a standard one (1500m,(pool)40k bike 10k run.).I am even slower at swimming,I caught up a bit time wise but not in position.

Posted: **Sun 17 Dec, 2017 9:42 pm**

SpinningHugo wrote:Not much praise on here for Dennis Brexit Skinner and his amusing heckles. Unlike another place.

Could you tell me exactly what you mean by this post? Was there some kind of celebration we should know about? Some important breaking news?

Or, are you just trolling between two different forums in an attempt to start an argument? You see, this is why people get annoyed at you and is the kind of behaviour that can get you uninvited from places.

Posted: **Sun 17 Dec, 2017 9:43 pm**

Kudos to Nick Boles for this.

Nick Boles MP‏Verified account
@NickBoles
4h4 hours ago
More
The UK employment rate is at its highest level in history. So we clearly aren't suffering from excessive employment regulation. I will NOT support ANY dilution of workers' employment rights. Nor should any Conservative.

Posted: **Sun 17 Dec, 2017 9:44 pm**

HindleA wrote:Done a standard one (1500m,(pool)40k bike 10k run.).I am even slower at swimming,I caught up a bit time wise but not in position.

His was a 2km swim in open water, 160km bike and then a marathon (up a mountain in this case) - took him around 15 hours

Posted: **Sun 17 Dec, 2017 9:47 pm**

howsillyofme1 wrote:
HindleA wrote:Done a standard one (1500m,(pool)40k bike 10k run.).I am even slower at swimming,I caught up a bit time wise but not in position.

His was a 2km swim in open water, 160km bike and then a marathon (up a mountain in this case) - took him around 15 hours

I did a 500m walk to pub, a couple of laps of the bar and then a 1km walk back (walk back was a lot longer than the walk there due to precession of the equinoxes or some other phenomenon yet explained by science

Posted: **Sun 17 Dec, 2017 9:49 pm**

@howsilly,only if I could find some one as bad as me and support guaranteed no matter how many days it took,otherwise.....

Posted: **Sun 17 Dec, 2017 9:56 pm**

I have to have a fag break at least every four hours,it is the law.

Posted: **Sun 17 Dec, 2017 9:57 pm**

refitman wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:Not much praise on here for Dennis Brexit Skinner and his amusing heckles. Unlike another place.
Could you tell me exactly what you mean by this post? Was there some kind of celebration we should know about? Some important breaking news?

Or, are you just trolling between two different forums in an attempt to start an argument? You see, this is why people get annoyed at you and is the kind of behaviour that can get you uninvited from places.

Refitman -- afraid I can't read PM's !

I'm all for SOME trolls, tho it does need much self-discipline to prevent their taking over normal life ...

Some are very clever, but I don't see SH approaching the extreme malevolence of bitethehand !

Posted: **Sun 17 Dec, 2017 10:05 pm**

HindleA wrote:I have to have a fag break at least every four hours,it is the law.

Weakling ! When I was a proper smoker on 3 packs a day four hours abstinence was impossible !

Quite amazed I'm still breathing at all at 70 yo, tho it is somewhat diminished ...

Posted: **Sun 17 Dec, 2017 10:07 pm**

frog222 wrote:
Refitman -- afraid I can't read PM's !

Emailed you, to the email you signed up with.

Posted: **Sun 17 Dec, 2017 10:27 pm**

PorFavor wrote:Night night.

Goodnight, PorFavor

Posted: **Sun 17 Dec, 2017 10:27 pm**

Goodnight, everyone
love,
cJA

Posted: **Sun 17 Dec, 2017 10:42 pm**

HindleA wrote:Everybody at work smokes,there were some with the electronic thing that seems to have diminished.

SAD !

After decades of abuse i still have roughly half of lung capacity remaining . Which is rather bloody lovely and to be treasured .

I measure it pretty regularly .

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[youtube]jdA8KU_D9JU[/youtube]

Aaaagh -- I'm a VERY long way from that result . Interestingly the YT and my own French GP are both using the same UK-made piece of plastic equipment .

Posted: **Sun 17 Dec, 2017 10:50 pm**

refitman wrote:
frog222 wrote:
Refitman -- afraid I can't read PM's !
Emailed you, to the email you signed up with.

Ephe is an old fiend from those early days when Leni Paul and I and sundry others were attempting to interest the Guardian ( Bellla -- "we are not a campaigning newspaper" ) in the Disability Scandals which were so flagrant already.

FlyTheNest

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