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PostPosted: Mon 18 Dec, 2017 5:36 pm 
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Tubby Isaacs wrote:
I've heard the ONS to Newport mentioned as problematic. It's not a very well off town, but Cardiff isn't far away, and for people wanting rural or small town, Abergavenny is just up the road with a quick commute to Newport. So if there was a problem there, there'll be problems with more remote and depressed places.


Coincidentally my son lives in Cardiff and his flat mate works for the ONS...

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PostPosted: Mon 18 Dec, 2017 5:38 pm 
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As for Nigel Farage, he’s like a B-side artist permanently on American tour. Last we saw him was in Alabama, no less, as back-up singer for the egregious Roy Moore.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/bre ... 06206.html

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PostPosted: Mon 18 Dec, 2017 5:45 pm 
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There's no part of the UK bereft of beauty.


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PostPosted: Mon 18 Dec, 2017 5:46 pm 
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Jon Worth, as proof of Labour not needing to bother with lots of places retweets this.

Image

You know why those poorer places are in Britain? Because Britains a poorer country than the others on there, and the map stops before poorer countries come on to it. And seriously, when did Lincolnshire become a region? And one with North Lincolnshire in another region?

That's polemic.


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PostPosted: Mon 18 Dec, 2017 5:53 pm 
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Good evening

Sorry but I find this discussion around writing off swathes of the country and suggesting the whole population moves to the UK rather distasteful

I understand what Tubby is getting at but there may have been a lot of people trying to do things but this does not seem to be backed up with cash....I expect my town of Wolverhampton would be one that would be high on the list to depopulate and move elsewhere

Again, the worst and most chilling post comes from the empathy-vacuum of Hugo. It sounds as though he would like us to be in a command economy like China - people working in big cities living in dormitories (why not call them 'workhouses'?) and then massive populations of people moving around at certain holiday times of the year on our wonderful public transport services that are never, ever known to close down at holiday times

All those elderly relatives without any locally resident family can all be shoved off to our wonderful care services that have been so well-endowed with money......

There are other options but that would go against 'the market' and we cannot have that can we?


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PostPosted: Mon 18 Dec, 2017 6:00 pm 
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Actually, those do seem to be genuine UK regions for EU stat purposes. I reckon we've got the hang of having smaller ones so that we can get more structural aid.


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PostPosted: Mon 18 Dec, 2017 6:04 pm 
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Tubby Isaacs wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/social-housing-policy-part-2/?utm_content=buffer0ba88&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
Quote:
Housing policy can’t be fixed until we treat houses as homes and not as stores of wealth


Given I keep saying how we have to stop financializing homes, this headline particularly appealed to me. When looked at in the right way, the solutions to the housing crisis appear rather more simple in practical terms than one would expect. It's convincing public and politicians to support them which gets tricky. Needless to say, deregulation and green belt free for alls don't get a mention, because these are solutions to land owners and house builders making more money and do nothing to change the distribution issues behind our housing crisis. There are plenty of planning permissions already being granted to satisfy demand for house purchases. What we don't have enough of is social and council housing and the cause of that is inextricably linked to political policy, not market economics.


Supply, where people want to live, is surely important? Cambridge has managed to built lots beyond its outskirts, and is thriving.


I'm not sure what you're trying to get at with this response. Surely it fits my assertion that we don't necessarily have a problem of supply of houses to buy, so increasing houses to buy won't fix the housing problem, which is a shortage of supply of council and social housing?

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PostPosted: Mon 18 Dec, 2017 6:06 pm 
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Here's the updated stuff.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_E ... ons_by_GDP

France seem to be just counting departements. I reckon they could split up eg Pas de Calais (won by Le Pen) into somewhere smaller and generate a smaller, poorer rump that could get more EU funding.

Note also Spain and Italy's poor regions on their outskirts.

And not that I think Lancashire has had a very easy time, but it's now ahead of 4 German regions.


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PostPosted: Mon 18 Dec, 2017 6:13 pm 
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howsillyofme1 wrote:
Good evening

Sorry but I find this discussion around writing off swathes of the country and suggesting the whole population moves to the UK rather distasteful

I understand what Tubby is getting at but there may have been a lot of people trying to do things but this does not seem to be backed up with cash....I expect my town of Wolverhampton would be one that would be high on the list to depopulate and move elsewhere

Again, the worst and most chilling post comes from the empathy-vacuum of Hugo. It sounds as though he would like us to be in a command economy like China - people working in big cities living in dormitories (why not call them 'workhouses'?) and then massive populations of people moving around at certain holiday times of the year on our wonderful public transport services that are never, ever known to close down at holiday times

All those elderly relatives without any locally resident family can all be shoved off to our wonderful care services that have been so well-endowed with money......

There are other options but that would go against 'the market' and we cannot have that can we?


I think Wolverhampton is definitely one where much more could have been done. Other cities have had much more down, and its part of a well-located conurbation which ought to be able to compete in its own right, and have people speeding across it to good jobs on public transport.

The Welsh Valleys are a much more difficult proposition, I think. There are valleys there at the Monmouthshire end that were never industrialized. They're the sort of place you'd live if you enjoyed steep hills.


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PostPosted: Mon 18 Dec, 2017 6:15 pm 
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Willow904 wrote:

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at with this response. Surely it fits my assertion that we don't necessarily have a problem of supply of houses to buy, so increasing houses to buy won't fix the housing problem, which is a shortage of supply of council and social housing?


Housing removed from speculation is good, as social housing and variously priced housing association property is. But more building of houses would certainly help too. There needs to be a national plan to provide that, rather than being essentially in the hands of local councillors.


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PostPosted: Mon 18 Dec, 2017 6:16 pm 
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Ah, hang on those wiki figures are from 2013.


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PostPosted: Mon 18 Dec, 2017 6:21 pm 
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Tubby Isaacs wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
Good evening

Sorry but I find this discussion around writing off swathes of the country and suggesting the whole population moves to the UK rather distasteful

I understand what Tubby is getting at but there may have been a lot of people trying to do things but this does not seem to be backed up with cash....I expect my town of Wolverhampton would be one that would be high on the list to depopulate and move elsewhere

Again, the worst and most chilling post comes from the empathy-vacuum of Hugo. It sounds as though he would like us to be in a command economy like China - people working in big cities living in dormitories (why not call them 'workhouses'?) and then massive populations of people moving around at certain holiday times of the year on our wonderful public transport services that are never, ever known to close down at holiday times

All those elderly relatives without any locally resident family can all be shoved off to our wonderful care services that have been so well-endowed with money......

There are other options but that would go against 'the market' and we cannot have that can we?


I think Wolverhampton is definitely one where much more could have been done. Other cities have had much more down, and its part of a well-located conurbation which ought to be able to compete in its own right, and have people speeding across it to good jobs on public transport.

The Welsh Valleys are a much more difficult proposition, I think. There are valleys there at the Monmouthshire end that were never industrialized. They're the sort of place you'd live if you enjoyed steep hills.



The place I live in has some pretty steep hills too and the Welsh valleys were at the forefront of industrialisation back in the day

Wolverhampton is not that well connected (have you ever been the station for example) and is due to be by-passed by HS2 so future not bright either

One difference, is that Switzerland has never hollowed out its industrial base and has always invested in making things - but at the same time exploiting tourism etc - local Government is very, very strong as well - much more so than Federal

I would like to see how any politician that talked about writing off Glarus, Schwyz, Haut-Valias or some of the other more inaccessible areas would be treated?


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PostPosted: Mon 18 Dec, 2017 6:36 pm 
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It's not just the hollowing out of industry in the Valleys though. It's also all the coal production that's gone. I don't know how many areas there are that are remote from the centre of Europe that depended so much on extracting something they can't extract any more. See how loss of coal affected the far more accessible Pas de Calais, which I know a bit. It's about the same level of wealth as Northern Ireland.

Just In Time manufacturing is a huge thing now. So I think being away from the centre of Europe geographically is a huge problem. As I say, Ireland has managed to stand out against that, but the way it did (basically being far more business friendly than even Tory Britain) isn't going to work everywhere. Just as Texan-style tax cuts didn't work in Kansas. Nor would any of us want that, of course.

I think the Valleys are particularly hard to regenerate, that's the point I'm making.


Last edited by Tubby Isaacs on Mon 18 Dec, 2017 6:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon 18 Dec, 2017 6:38 pm 
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Astonishing but given the record of this bunch hardly a surprise.

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The PM has just confirmed that our Ministers are discussing our future trading relationship with the EU without any impact analysis of the different options. This is staggering stupidity and ignorance. #Brexit #FBPE


:roll:

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PostPosted: Mon 18 Dec, 2017 6:40 pm 
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Re HS2, it's important that Stafford gets its station.

Building up Birmingham should help the region as a whole in the longer term, but in the shorter term, I agree, it's less clear.


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PostPosted: Mon 18 Dec, 2017 6:41 pm 
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Tubby Isaacs wrote:
It's not just the hollowing out of industry in the Valleys though. It's also all the coal production that's gone. I don't know how many areas there are that are remote from the centre of Europe that depended so much on extracting something they can't extract any more. See how loss of coal affected the far more accessible Pas de Calais, which I know a bit. It's about the same level of wealth as Northern Ireland.

Just In Time manufacturing is a huge thing now. So I think being away from the centre of Europe geographically is a huge problem. As I say, Ireland has managed to stand out against that, but the way it did (basically being far more business friendly than even Tory Britain) isn't going to work everywhere. Just as Texan-style tax cuts didn't work in Kansas.

I think the Valleys are particularly hard to regenerate, that's the point I'm making.



I understand the point you are making and it doesn't have the malevolent tone of Hugo either........it is a challenge but these communities need support to work and if there is any need for looking at supporting them searching for opportunities elsewhere then it needs to be done in a socially compassionate way.......it will cost a lot of money - more now as we will be outside the EU

It seems like the UK has lost some of its values since 1979 and have lost the sense of what matters


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PostPosted: Mon 18 Dec, 2017 6:42 pm 
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howsillyofme1 wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
It's not just the hollowing out of industry in the Valleys though. It's also all the coal production that's gone. I don't know how many areas there are that are remote from the centre of Europe that depended so much on extracting something they can't extract any more. See how loss of coal affected the far more accessible Pas de Calais, which I know a bit. It's about the same level of wealth as Northern Ireland.

Just In Time manufacturing is a huge thing now. So I think being away from the centre of Europe geographically is a huge problem. As I say, Ireland has managed to stand out against that, but the way it did (basically being far more business friendly than even Tory Britain) isn't going to work everywhere. Just as Texan-style tax cuts didn't work in Kansas.

I think the Valleys are particularly hard to regenerate, that's the point I'm making.



I understand the point you are making and it doesn't have the malevolent tone of Hugo either........it is a challenge but these communities need support to work and if there is any need for looking at supporting them searching for opportunities elsewhere then it needs to be done in a socially compassionate way.......it will cost a lot of money - more now as we will be outside the EU

It seems like the UK has lost some of its values since 1979 and have lost the sense of what matters


I agree with that.

I think post 1979 the idea of keeping something going for the sake of its region really died, and it was very bad. Coal miners in Blaenau Gwent losing their job isn't the same as people in richer, better connected regions.

We're in a different world now, with less state aid, but I think a pattern was set in that earlier Thatcherite period that has endured.


Last edited by Tubby Isaacs on Mon 18 Dec, 2017 6:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon 18 Dec, 2017 6:44 pm 
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Tubby Isaacs wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
I'm sure more government offices could be moved out of London. But there's a limit to where they can be moved to. Reading or similar, sure.

Ebbw Vale, Grimsby, Plymouth? Doubtful.


Plymouth shouldn't be an impossible sell I would have thought?


Bit remote, I reckon.


Why should the remoteness of London affect jobs in Plymouth? :evil:

MoD personnel seems to operate ok from Glasgow, pensions from Newcastle, NS&I from Glasgow... London really isn't the centre of the universe, or even the UK!


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PostPosted: Mon 18 Dec, 2017 6:48 pm 
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And here's the annual Christmas story:

Quote:
A Winter Wonderland event in Northern Ireland has been cancelled just two days after opening due to a slew of complaints.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 16421.html


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PostPosted: Mon 18 Dec, 2017 6:56 pm 
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[quote="Eric_WLothian"]
I think the easier stuff's already been relocated.

But I didn't mean remote from London necessarily. I meant remote from other places. There's a reason Paul Whitehouse chose Plymouth Argyle when he wanted to show a football fan who travelled a long way in his Aviva car insurance adverts.


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PostPosted: Mon 18 Dec, 2017 7:03 pm 
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Tubby Isaacs wrote:
I think the easier stuff's already been relocated.


Is there a central government department (including Parliament itself) which absolutely can't function outside London?


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PostPosted: Mon 18 Dec, 2017 7:16 pm 
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If Parliament's in London, departments have to be there really. I don't think it would work if you just had a ministerial office in London, because people from all parts of the department need to feed into the ministerial office. Well you could, with video conferencing etc, in the same way it's sometimes suggested that all the people clambering on to rush hour trains "don't really need to be there". Believe it's a starter when I see it.

Then there's other "quango" stuff. I used to work in the Prison Service, and that had regional offices, but teams doing particular things felt like they had to be in London to me. I note that Ofsted has main offices outside London. Whether that meant Sir Michael Wilshaw worked out of London, I don't know.


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PostPosted: Mon 18 Dec, 2017 7:17 pm 
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The whole of Parliament could go to eg Birmingham though, and that would work.

I've seen it suggested the Lords alone move out of London, but it would be odd to have ministers working in two different cities.


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PostPosted: Mon 18 Dec, 2017 7:20 pm 
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Eric_WLothian wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
I think the easier stuff's already been relocated.


Is there a central government department (including Parliament itself) which absolutely can't function outside London?


MOD procurement is all based in Bristol these days, all moved out of London (and neighbouring Bath) since Abbey Wood was first opened in 1996. As it hasn't previously been mentioned, alongside DVLA in Swansea etc, I assume no one has particularly noticed. And I'm not sure it's made much difference. Perhaps moving government departments isn't the answer to London's dominance, after all? Perhaps it has more to do with finance. The City. And various historical anomalies that give it an obscure and unusual role at the heart of our capital? Just a thought.

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PostPosted: Mon 18 Dec, 2017 7:26 pm 
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Tubby Isaacs wrote:
The whole of Parliament could go to eg Birmingham though, and that would work.

I've seen it suggested the Lords alone move out of London, but it would be odd to have ministers working in two different cities.


It's an all or nothing scenario really. We need constitutional change, a new, more democratically accountable upper house, perhaps with a regional element. PR for the lower house etc etc. A new Parliament building and location would naturally flow from a whole new democratic structure. If Labour had been elected in 2015, we could well be seriously talking about it right now. As it is.....

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PostPosted: Mon 18 Dec, 2017 7:40 pm 
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Barley crops are good - get in a barley crop three times a year
grow vegetables and keep chickens
Wind turbines and solar panels


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PostPosted: Mon 18 Dec, 2017 8:02 pm 
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Tubby Isaacs wrote:
If Parliament's in London, departments have to be there really. I don't think it would work if you just had a ministerial office in London, because people from all parts of the department need to feed into the ministerial office. Well you could, with video conferencing etc, in the same way it's sometimes suggested that all the people clambering on to rush hour trains "don't really need to be there". Believe it's a starter when I see it.

Then there's other "quango" stuff. I used to work in the Prison Service, and that had regional offices, but teams doing particular things felt like they had to be in London to me. I note that Ofsted has main offices outside London. Whether that meant Sir Michael Wilshaw worked out of London, I don't know.


Pre-devolution, the Scottish Office was based in Edinburgh, with a small office in Whitehall. It worked fine - Edinburgh-based staff travelling to London when necessary was no great problem. The Secretary of State and his Ministers split their time between the two locations - again with no apparent problems.


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PostPosted: Mon 18 Dec, 2017 8:03 pm 
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Willow904 wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
The whole of Parliament could go to eg Birmingham though, and that would work.

I've seen it suggested the Lords alone move out of London, but it would be odd to have ministers working in two different cities.


It's an all or nothing scenario really. We need constitutional change, a new, more democratically accountable upper house, perhaps with a regional element. PR for the lower house etc etc. A new Parliament building and location would naturally flow from a whole new democratic structure. If Labour had been elected in 2015, we could well be seriously talking about it right now. As it is.....


Yep.

I liked that idea of making sure the Lords had representatives of all regions in it. It's a funny body, but eg an industrialist active in North East England would be able to attend it where necessary and bring direct up to date experience to the debate.


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PostPosted: Mon 18 Dec, 2017 8:11 pm 
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Willow904 wrote:
Eric_WLothian wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
I think the easier stuff's already been relocated.


Is there a central government department (including Parliament itself) which absolutely can't function outside London?


MOD procurement is all based in Bristol these days, all moved out of London (and neighbouring Bath) since Abbey Wood was first opened in 1996. As it hasn't previously been mentioned, alongside DVLA in Swansea etc, I assume no one has particularly noticed. And I'm not sure it's made much difference. Perhaps moving government departments isn't the answer to London's dominance, after all? Perhaps it has more to do with finance. The City. And various historical anomalies that give it an obscure and unusual role at the heart of our capital? Just a thought.


Maybe moving the BoE to Birmingham would induce some financial services to move - or maybe not. Brexit appears to be proving that it really doesn't matter where they are geographically!


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PostPosted: Mon 18 Dec, 2017 8:22 pm 
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https://www.insidehousing.co.uk/news/sa ... loss-53632
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Sadiq Khan has refused planning permission for estate regeneration plans in Barnet due to a “completely unacceptable” net loss of 257 social homes.


I'll be interested to see how Sadiq Khan's latest intervention is received. Personally I think he's heading in the right direction.

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PostPosted: Mon 18 Dec, 2017 8:42 pm 
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Yes, I do too. I appreciate councils have big budget problems, but losing all those social homes is way over the line. There's got to be a better way than that.


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PostPosted: Mon 18 Dec, 2017 8:49 pm 
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http://www.politics.co.uk/news/2017/12/ ... rsal-credi


DWP ordered to publish another set of secret Universal Credit docs


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PostPosted: Mon 18 Dec, 2017 8:54 pm 
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FWIW the well worn "going back to work quicker " guff based on old cherry picked from the simplest cases-quicker not necessarily better by the way,ample evidence any job can lead to lifetime reduction in income and career progression compared to more appropriate.


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PostPosted: Mon 18 Dec, 2017 8:55 pm 
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Eric_WLothian wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
If Parliament's in London, departments have to be there really. I don't think it would work if you just had a ministerial office in London, because people from all parts of the department need to feed into the ministerial office. Well you could, with video conferencing etc, in the same way it's sometimes suggested that all the people clambering on to rush hour trains "don't really need to be there". Believe it's a starter when I see it.

Then there's other "quango" stuff. I used to work in the Prison Service, and that had regional offices, but teams doing particular things felt like they had to be in London to me. I note that Ofsted has main offices outside London. Whether that meant Sir Michael Wilshaw worked out of London, I don't know.


Pre-devolution, the Scottish Office was based in Edinburgh, with a small office in Whitehall. It worked fine - Edinburgh-based staff travelling to London when necessary was no great problem. The Secretary of State and his Ministers split their time between the two locations - again with no apparent problems.


That's interesting, had forgotten about the pre-devolution departments. But if we come back to the point being to get public sector jobs to poorer areas, is moving an office out of London to somewhere like Edinburgh really that worthwhile? Would that arrangement have worked if the office was in eg Dundee? Or would the Welsh Office have worked in Swansea?


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PostPosted: Mon 18 Dec, 2017 8:56 pm 
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I know you understand how awful Trump and the Republicans are.

But this is worthwhile

https://twitter.com/RadioFreeTom/status ... 4595298304


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PostPosted: Mon 18 Dec, 2017 9:27 pm 
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Missed this from earlier.

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Nigel Farage: An Apology. I suggested he would receive a £73,000-a year pension when Britain leaves the EU. I now understand this is not the case. He will receive 2 EU pensions totalling £132,000 a year.

I apologise for any suggestion that he is anything other than a hypocrite.


:D

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PostPosted: Mon 18 Dec, 2017 9:33 pm 
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goodnight, everyone
love,
cJA


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PostPosted: Mon 18 Dec, 2017 9:57 pm 
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https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... een-before

the-british-elite-is-at-war-with-itself-on-a-scale-weve-never-seen-before

Brilliant piece IMHO


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PostPosted: Mon 18 Dec, 2017 9:58 pm 
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http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index. ... -positive/

Attachment:
negative press.png
negative press.png [ 63.88 KiB | Viewed 504 times ]

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PostPosted: Mon 18 Dec, 2017 10:16 pm 
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Night night.


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PostPosted: Mon 18 Dec, 2017 10:20 pm 
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RogerOThornhill wrote:
Missed this from earlier.

Quote:
Tom Watson‏Verified account
@tom_watson
6h6 hours ago
More
Nigel Farage: An Apology. I suggested he would receive a £73,000-a year pension when Britain leaves the EU. I now understand this is not the case. He will receive 2 EU pensions totalling £132,000 a year.

I apologise for any suggestion that he is anything other than a hypocrite.


:D


Someone somewhere - and it might have been someone on here - found the sums that show up the background of this - how much you would need to purchase that as an annuity - it's a staggering amount of money.

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PostPosted: Mon 18 Dec, 2017 10:23 pm 
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The joys of being on a church locking-up rota...don't mind it too much but getting in the car to drive up to the church is a bit of a pain. As soon as you get in and clear the windscreen, the fact that you have to breathe makes it mist up again! Maybe I should just enjoy the walk up there and back...

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PostPosted: Mon 18 Dec, 2017 10:50 pm 
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As part of the World's elite,never mind just British,may I just point out my objection to the overgeneralised depiction.It's an onerous task at times.


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PostPosted: Mon 18 Dec, 2017 10:52 pm 
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Wonder what the Church did wrong to get locked up.


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PostPosted: Mon 18 Dec, 2017 10:52 pm 
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boom boom!

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PostPosted: Mon 18 Dec, 2017 11:13 pm 
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Azimuth,a new word for me.

angle between a celestial body (sun, moon) and the North, measured clockwise around the observer's horizon. It determines the direction of the celestial body.


Everyday,I find out how little I know about virtually everything.


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PostPosted: Mon 18 Dec, 2017 11:15 pm 
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When I say "virtually"....


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PostPosted: Mon 18 Dec, 2017 11:39 pm 
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https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... 00-uk-jobs


Toys R Us faces collapse with loss of all 3,200 UK jobs
Pension Protection Fund’s refusal to back restructuring unless retailer pays £9m into fund could push chain into administration


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PostPosted: Tue 19 Dec, 2017 12:12 am 
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Regardless of whether I agree with this or not (which of course I don't) I think someone has nicked my random word generator:

Quote:
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/sec ... 06236.html
The dismemberment of democracy, triggered by the picking and choosing of election results, starts a dangerous precedent that will permit your own demise if your desires fall foul of the EU’s plans.


wtff (as Mr Tucker might say)

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PostPosted: Tue 19 Dec, 2017 1:39 am 
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https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... abour-says


NHS hospitals unable to fill thousands of vacant posts, Labour says
Understaffing so acute almost one in four posts at some trusts in England are vacant, freedom of information requests show


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