Saturday 23rd to Wednesday 27th December 2017

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Tue 26 Dec, 2017 6:38 pm

My word for 2018 is

renege rɪˈneɪɡ,rɪˈniːɡ/Valider verb

go back on a promise, undertaking, or contract.
"the government had reneged on its election promises"
synonyms: default on, fail to honour, go back on, break, back out of, pull out of, withdraw from, retreat from, welsh on, backtrack on; repudiate, retract; go back on one's word, break one's word, break one's promise, do an about-face; informalcop out of, rat on
"he reneged on a campaign promise to keep taxes down"

For me Labour has fudged, and one may call it well-judged precision vaguenesss (!) , and they are still fudging .

But what is the alternative ?

( I think of de Gaulle and his betrayal of the Algerian pieds noirs, but then he was a real politician, with brain.)

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Tue 26 Dec, 2017 8:10 pm

I thought I'd broken the interweb

” “I was not keen on having a referendum in the first place, but I chose to be part of the collective decision making of the government,” he said.”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... referendum" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So he DID vote for the referendum then …

on what has turned out to be the most dangerous/divisive situation since (at least ?) Suez .

I wonder if in 2018 any MP(s) who did so admit that voting FOR a referendum was a ghastly error, where Parliament abdicated from its responsiblity and pissed it away to the even more under-informed than themselves ? ?

Crazy or courageous AND cunning ?

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Tue 26 Dec, 2017 8:10 pm

Brexit Refugees Heading to Amsterdam Raise Local Housing Concern

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ook-brexit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 26 Dec, 2017 8:24 pm

Lost Soul wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote: Lots of things "could" happen, but the idea that most Labour voters in June - even younger ones - were primarily motivated by "stopping Brexit" has been confirmed as a myth.
I don't think it can be proven one way or the other, but my grandson's friend's (he's at collage so is surrounded by young voters) who had reached 18, voted Labour (including 2 who's parents are Con party members) because they thought Labour would stop Brexit.
Other reasons were available, but it was a subject they talked about and stopping brexit was very high on the agenda.
I'm married to a University lecturer - friends with several others. Talk to students in the course of my own work. Have three nephews either students or left last year.

All I hear is that their number one concern is 'Brexit' - their hope is that Labour is the closest to resisting it.

Not 'proof' of course - probably just hearsay...but what the bloody hell more does it take ?

There is a difference between "resisting" it and the (IMO) wholly unrealistic desires of the #stopbrexit crowd.

Who are nowhere near as big IRL as Twitter sometimes makes them appear.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 26 Dec, 2017 8:56 pm

Philip Hammond urged to publish Treasury's Brexit impact studies

Labour MPs write to chancellor saying public have right to see documents examining range of outcomes of Brexit (Guardian)

The 25 Labour MPs include Chris Leslie, Catherine West, Maria Eagle, Alison McGovern, Stephen Doughty and Stella Creasy.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ct-studies

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 26 Dec, 2017 8:57 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Lost Soul wrote:I'm married to a University lecturer - friends with several others. Talk to students in the course of my own work. Have three nephews either students or left last year.

All I hear is that their number one concern is 'Brexit' - their hope is that Labour is the closest to resisting it.

Not 'proof' of course - probably just hearsay...but what the bloody hell more does it take ?
There is a difference between "resisting" it and the (IMO) wholly unrealistic desires of the #stopbrexit crowd.

Who are nowhere near as big IRL as Twitter sometimes makes them appear.

As I have said, perhaps too many times, the way out of this bind is to start a conversation about what the EU could be. What would an ideal EU look like? A strong, positive, socialist international view of the future.

This is absolutely the missing ingredient. And none of the political parties are currently providing it.

If we can dream about what could be in the EU, we may surprise ourselves.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 26 Dec, 2017 8:58 pm

"We are on the verge of introducing a very significant change in the way in which disability benefits are administered in the years ahead from DLA to PIP.The change will mean that many that many that have received disability benefits for years when there have no checks on whether they need it will finally for the first time will be asked to be subject to certain objective tests"

Sir Clegg,lying bastard,as to whether it is believable that he was actually so ignorant ie.knowingly lied and casting aspersions of the least likely to be dishonest on all available evidenceI will leave to others to decide.

" 2 Consultants
GP
Care Manager
Home visit from not own GP
A forklift truck of evidence
The outlining of personal stuff you wouldn't want to give unless you have to
could have got it since inception.
And even then had to fight for the correct level as was often the case

Parrotting the Daily WAil,doesn't appear very Liberal to me then again I aint no Liberal or indeed liberal.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Tue 26 Dec, 2017 8:59 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:Labour’s student vote ‘could melt away’ over Brexit backing
Hepi/YouthSight poll finds 68 per cent of students now back the party, up from 55 per cent prior to June’s general election

https://www.timeshighereducation.com/ne ... it-backing" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Lots of things "could" happen, but the idea that most Labour voters in June - even younger ones - were primarily motivated by "stopping Brexit" has been confirmed as a myth.

Again, a bold claim.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40630242" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There is *a lot* of analysis showing that Labour did as well as it did not because if Corbyn but because if Remain voters who wanted a softer approach on Brexit.

That doesn't mean that they wanted to reverse Brexit necessarily, though many do.

But perhaps you have *links* to lots of analysis saying the opposite that I haven't seen?

I couldn't, yet again, be that the opposite is something you really want to be true? And so just assert it as a truth?

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Tue 26 Dec, 2017 9:00 pm

AK --I'd like your plan for a "wholly realistic" brexit, because I haven't seen one yet

Just kidding, rhetorical Q .

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 26 Dec, 2017 9:06 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:Labour’s student vote ‘could melt away’ over Brexit backing
Hepi/YouthSight poll finds 68 per cent of students now back the party, up from 55 per cent prior to June’s general election

https://www.timeshighereducation.com/ne ... it-backing" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Lots of things "could" happen, but the idea that most Labour voters in June - even younger ones - were primarily motivated by "stopping Brexit" has been confirmed as a myth.

Again, a bold claim.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40630242" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There is *a lot* of analysis showing that Labour did as well as it did not because if Corbyn but because if Remain voters who wanted a softer approach on Brexit.

That doesn't mean that they wanted to reverse Brexit necessarily, though many do.

But perhaps you have *links* to lots of analysis saying the opposite that I haven't seen?

I couldn't, yet again, be that the opposite is something you really want to be true? And so just assert it as a truth?

Un-in-tell-i-gi-ble dahling

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Tue 26 Dec, 2017 9:16 pm

I don't think stopping brexit is unrealistic and when things like this start to bite opinions will change - and fast
"The loss of EU funding used to help poorer parts of the UK has had far less attention than other ill effects of Brexit. But it will soon be hard to ignore the problem."

http://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-sto ... -1-5147158" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

UK hopes dashed for swift Japan trade talks

https://www.ft.com/content/0047b3c2-8b1 ... ign=buffer" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's only going to take Nissan to decide to move and the whole mood of the country will change.
That, and aeroplanes being grounded thanks to the loss of Open Sky's membership agreement.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 26 Dec, 2017 9:19 pm

Even if you could ascertain the "main reason" it says rather nothing as to whether it would have made a difference as to still voting the same way/another party or indeed not voting.We would have gone Tory regardless,our MP was a blue labour not necessarily against fracking,voted for a referendum,SH praised her for her independence on the fracking thing.I don't agree with Labour on everything,for me it is a question as to whether I can sacrifice the lives and well being of others,UC and many policies have fuck all to do with Brexit the Coalition managed to do that by themselves (or more correctly not manage beyond causing needless distress) for the sake of my own sense of purity,I am not willing.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 26 Dec, 2017 9:23 pm

I read the New European link but the FT one is off-limits to me.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Tue 26 Dec, 2017 9:24 pm

HindleA wrote:Even if you could ascertain the "main reason" it says rather nothing as to whether it would have made a difference as to still voting the same way/another party or indeed not voting.We would have gone Tory regardless,our MP was a blue labour not necessarily against fracking,voted for a referendum,SH praised her for her independence on the fracking thing.I don't agree with Labour on everything,for me it is a question as to whether I can sacrifice the lives and well being of others,UC and many policies have fuck all to do with Brexit the Coalition managed to do that by themselves (or more correctly not manage beyond causing needless distress) for the sake of my own sense of purity,I am not willing.

Neither would I, but young people feeling let down (again) by political half truths (and some lies) will feel different because they don't have life experience to lead them to different conclusions.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 26 Dec, 2017 9:26 pm

Theresa May is set for disappointment on her visit to Tokyo this week after Japanese officials signalled they would not rush into free trade talks with Britain. The British prime minister, who is hungry for new trade agreements to show the benefits of Brexit, is expected to discuss a UK-Japan version of the deal Tokyo agreed in principle with the EU last month when she meets her Japanese counterpart Shinzo Abe.But Japanese officials say their priority is completing the deal with Brussels, while negotiations with Britain will be difficult until there is clarity about its future relationship with the EU.“I don’t think there will be substantial progress,” said one Japanese trade official. “We haven’t finished [free trade] negotiations with the EU, just agreed at the political level, and many issues still remain.”The official said the UK side was being “quite aggressive” in pushing for a commitment on a future trade deal with the world’s fourth-largest economy. Mrs May will argue that such an arrangement would be mutually beneficial.“We were big supporters of the EU-Japan trade deal and were engaged in negotiating it,” said one of Mrs May’s allies. “It would make sense for that deal to be replicated for us.”But Yoshiji Nogami, president of the Japan Institute of International Affairs, and a former ambassador to the UK, said: “We can’t negotiate until Britain is out of the EU. I think what Mr Abe wants to hear from the prime minister is where she hopes to land on Brexit.”

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Tue 26 Dec, 2017 9:27 pm

PFY 9.06 -- good link from Hugo which unsurprisingly showed that remainers went for the soft exit party, and surprisingly perhaps the leaders finished level-pegging at the end.

So two factors at work .

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 26 Dec, 2017 9:28 pm

Mrs May’s two-day visit, where she will be accompanied by a business delegation, comes as more Japanese companies begin discussions about moving their European headquarters from the UK to continental Europe.The first wave of moves involved Japan’s financial institutions, most of which have opted to establish hubs in Frankfurt and Amsterdam.But as negotiations between the UK and Europe take shape, other Japanese trading houses and industrial companies have opened talks with European governments about shifting their bases from the UK, say lawyers and other advisers.“Now that the banks have worked out their strategies, there is a second wave of Japanese companies with European HQs in the UK currently looking carefully at their options elsewhere,” said one person familiar with the discussions of two major Japanese companies. Japanese companies are encountering strong inducements from rival European countries. Hitachi Rail, which took a controlling stake in the Italian rail group Ansaldo STS in 2015, is under pressure from Rome to move its European headquarters from the UK to Italy, according to Italian officials. Mrs May’s team believe that a transitional period between Brexit in 2019 and the entry into force of a new EU/UK trade deal would provide a period of up to three years in which to agree a new trade deal with Tokyo.In private, Mr Abe will urge Mrs May to minimise disruption for Japanese companies in the UK. They are growing increasingly concerned about Britain’s plans to leave the EU customs union and single market.“We need transition arrangements so business has time to plan,” said a senior official of Keidanren, Japan’s biggest business organisation. “We want both sides to show flexibility, but in particular, we’d encourage the UK to recalibrate its basic position.”Many Japanese companies were encouraged to use the UK as a base to sell into the European single market by Margaret Thatcher in the 1980s. British ministers have been anxious to reassure them they are seeking to minimise the impact of Brexit.One minister said Japanese companies in Britain were treated as “home companies” and were fully involved in discussions about Brexit; companies including Honda, Nissan and Toyota have signalled their commitment to the UK in recent months.Nissan, which operates a large plant in Sunderland, was given personal assurances by Mrs May in October that the factory would not be affected by Brexit.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 26 Dec, 2017 9:31 pm

If a belisha beacon called Norris had been the leader it wouldn't have made any difference here.

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Tue 26 Dec, 2017 9:32 pm

Hindle 9.28 "" Nissan, which operates a large plant in Sunderland, was given personal assurances by Mrs May in October that the factory would not be affected by Brexit.""

Which assurances were not worth anything at all !

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 26 Dec, 2017 9:39 pm

frog222 wrote:PFY 9.06 -- good link from Hugo which unsurprisingly showed that remainers went for the soft exit party, and surprisingly perhaps the leaders finished level-pegging at the end.

So two factors at work .

Nice graphics that show, err, not very much?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 26 Dec, 2017 9:39 pm

PF I hope you can read the FT link through the gin induced alcoholic haze.To be fair this time last year you were still stuck in a chimney convinced you were Santa Claus.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 26 Dec, 2017 9:41 pm

As I said, raking over the ashes of the referendum will not lead us to a way out of the mess.

IMHO.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 26 Dec, 2017 9:43 pm

FWIW I think Bex Bailey is in the running for our next candidate.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 26 Dec, 2017 9:47 pm

Nice chimney/ash link.

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Tue 26 Dec, 2017 9:47 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
frog222 wrote:PFY 9.06 -- good link from Hugo which unsurprisingly showed that remainers went for the soft exit party, and surprisingly perhaps the leaders finished level-pegging at the end.

So two factors at work .
Nice graphics that show, err, not very much?

I thought they were very pretty . Worth looking at too ! For example the

How leader likeability changed during campaign

graphic was impressive ?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 26 Dec, 2017 9:48 pm

PF BEX Bailey,not time for the Bailey's.FFS

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Tue 26 Dec, 2017 9:49 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:As I said, raking over the ashes of the referendum will not lead us to a way out of the mess.

IMHO.

That is where we disagree ! Admitting one's mistakes CAN be a winning formula ?

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Tue 26 Dec, 2017 9:51 pm

HindleA wrote:PF BEX Bailey,not time for the Bailey's.FFS

I just poured one - do I have to put it back ?

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 26 Dec, 2017 9:52 pm

Yes, lots of people voted Labour in the hope of a softer approach to Brexit. And that is what they may now be getting.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 26 Dec, 2017 9:55 pm

I hated doing fires,which was a common "home help" task though reducing with gas replacement allowance in lieu for ex miners and families receivership of bags of coal.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 26 Dec, 2017 9:56 pm

AAW no you haven't had a few gallons of gin today (as far as I know)

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 26 Dec, 2017 9:56 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:
HindleA wrote:PF BEX Bailey,not time for the Bailey's.FFS
I just poured one - do I have to put it back ?

Nah - knock it back!

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Tue 26 Dec, 2017 9:59 pm

HindleA wrote:AAW no you haven't had a few gallons of gin today (as far as I know)

Hick, squints, wats dat ya sayin ?

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Tue 26 Dec, 2017 10:02 pm

Theresa May Just Negotiated Away the United Kingdom
The price of hard Brexit will be the end of the nation as we know it.

"In the early hours of Friday morning, as British Prime Minister Theresa May was driven home from Downing Street to catch two hours of sleep ahead of her dash to Brussels, an opinion poll was published in Northern Ireland.

It reported a sensational result. For the first time, a majority in Northern Ireland (51 percent after factoring out undecideds, nonvoters, and spoilers) supported unification under the Irish Republic to remain in the European Union in the event of a “hard” Brexit. London’s “hard” Brexit plans, which entail leaving the EU’s internal market and customs union as well as its political structures, had caused the solid, pro-U.K. “Unionist” majority that had existed since Northern Ireland’s creation in 1921, to evaporate."
(Dated December 11, 2017)

http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/12/13/the ... ign=buffer" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hick - edit to add link..... hick

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Tue 26 Dec, 2017 10:03 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Yes, lots of people voted Labour in the hope of a softer approach to Brexit. And that is what they may now be getting.

AK -- but looking upstream at the several trade complexities articles, it ain't going to happen within a few months under ANY management , if at all ...

Too many logical inconsistencies .

The cost of a U Turn is minuscule compared to all the other REALISTIC alternatives, unless of course the EU commits its own Almighty Fudge of a softish brexit

More cliff-hanging !

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 26 Dec, 2017 10:08 pm

When AAW said poured one she didn't mean a glass but the whole bloody bottle.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 26 Dec, 2017 10:08 pm

frog222 wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:As I said, raking over the ashes of the referendum will not lead us to a way out of the mess.

IMHO.
That is where we disagree ! Admitting one's mistakes CAN be a winning formula ?

I think I do agree with you. But it's easier to admit those mistakes by moving forward than rewinding. IMHO.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Tue 26 Dec, 2017 10:09 pm

HindleA wrote:When AAW said poured one she didn't mean a glass but the whole bloody bottle.

Nah, just got my (none plastic) straw in it.....hick, hic, hixk

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Tue 26 Dec, 2017 10:16 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
frog222 wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:As I said, raking over the ashes of the referendum will not lead us to a way out of the mess.

IMHO.
That is where we disagree ! Admitting one's mistakes CAN be a winning formula ?
I think I do agree with you. But it's easier to admit those mistakes by moving forward than rewinding. IMHO.

.It's not 'raking' to say "I Woz Wrong" ! That clears the air to move forwards .

Takes courage tho !

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 26 Dec, 2017 10:19 pm

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Police break up Westfield Stratford fight

I presume this is where Roger didn't go to the other day.

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Tue 26 Dec, 2017 10:21 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:
HindleA wrote:When AAW said poured one she didn't mean a glass but the whole bloody bottle.
Nah, just got my (none plastic) straw in it.....hick, hic, hixk

I'm celebrating surviving Christmas with a squad of very young grandchildren, and now contemplating some creative writing of a funereal eulogy . Not maudlin, just contemplative !

'(Hic all the same.)

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 26 Dec, 2017 10:31 pm

frog222 wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:I think I do agree with you. But it's easier to admit those mistakes by moving forward than rewinding. IMHO.
.It's not 'raking' to say "I Woz Wrong" ! That clears the air to move forwards .

Takes courage tho !

I think we may be closer than at first appears on this, but too sleepy to discuss more tonight

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Tue 26 Dec, 2017 10:33 pm

frog222 wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:
HindleA wrote:When AAW said poured one she didn't mean a glass but the whole bloody bottle.
Nah, just got my (none plastic) straw in it.....hick, hic, hixk
I'm celebrating surviving Christmas with a squad of very young grandchildren, and now contemplating some creative writing of a funereal eulogy . Not maudlin, just contemplative !

'(Hic all the same.)

Mine goes
There she lies in the hole
Bottle of Bailey's up her nose

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Tue 26 Dec, 2017 10:35 pm

Odd
After a couple or three Bailey's, hole and nose rhyme quite well
Till you write them down....
Hic...

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 26 Dec, 2017 10:35 pm

Goodnight, everyone
love,
cJA

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Tue 26 Dec, 2017 10:39 pm

‏
@gazman747
Following Following @gazman747
More
Which Prime Minister do you hate the most or even hate with a vengeance? A prime Minister that was pretty much useless!
Feel free to name your own in a tweet. Please retweet after voting, many thanks.
For my vote I would have to say Theresa May!

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

55DegreesNorth · Post by **55DegreesNorth** » Tue 26 Dec, 2017 10:43 pm

Evening folks,
Hope you all had a decent Christmas. Watching the news, it looks like I’ve let the British economy down. My Boxing Day splurge was a pizza marinara and two pints of Moretti.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 26 Dec, 2017 10:59 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... to-council" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Grenfell Tower management company hands responsibility back to council

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Tue 26 Dec, 2017 11:04 pm

EU prepares Canada-style trade deal due to lack of clarity over UK’s Brexit demands
Fallback plan underlines negotiators’ concern over May’s approach to future relations

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/e ... Ug.twitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Tue 26 Dec, 2017 11:09 pm

HindleA wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... to-council

Grenfell Tower management company hands responsibility back to council

Arms length masturbation temporarily suspended?

Perhaps ?