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PostPosted: Mon 01 Jan, 2018 12:18 pm 
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I found this thread interesting, as it challenges the dominant narrative around the causes of the Brexit vote. Personally I've been finding the whole "left behind" narrative overused and oversimplified and, crucially, although it may be an important component, it has crowded out discussion of all the other equally important components, so I was pleased to see some of the other elements at play being explored for a change:

https://mobile.twitter.com/marwood_lenn ... 8154570752

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Gaily Bedight
@marwood_lennox
·
1 Nov
24. "Why did Aylesbury vote Leave?" should be asked a lot more than why did, say, Stoke


Perhaps not more than, but at least as much as?

And areas of the South West which used to return Libdems - the most pro-EU party? Why did they go Tory in 2015 and then vote leave? Did they go Tory to get a referendum to vote out? Why did such rural areas go leave? Is it because of an older population, with young people having to move away from places like Cornwall to find work and older people moving in to retire?

Is Brexit about nostalgia as much as it's about economic deprivation? And if so, shouldn't we be talking about that element of it a bit more?

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PostPosted: Mon 01 Jan, 2018 12:41 pm 
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Indeed, plenty of affluent eurosceptics around here.
I think it boils down to a failure to understand that Britishness is no more than an accident of birth, which leads me to conclude that they're just not very bright.
Harsh, but their voting habits also lead one to that conclusion.

I think it isn't discussed because it's actually inexcusable, there's no facts to support it at all. The 'left-behind' at least have some justification.

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PostPosted: Mon 01 Jan, 2018 12:48 pm 
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NHS shake-up is not a Trojan horse for privatisation, says top doctor

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/jan/01/nhs-shake-up-is-not-a-trojan-horse-for-privatisation-says-top-doctor

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The NHS’s top doctor has denied that radical plans to reshape the way patients are cared for are a “Trojan horse” for wholesale privatisation of the health service.

Prof Sir Bruce Keogh, NHS England’s national medical director, says setting up new bodies called accountable care organisations (ACOs) in eight areas of England is simply about improving the quality of care the NHS offers.

Critics fear that the introduction of ACOs – based on US healthcare bodies of the same name – could lead to swaths of the NHS falling into the hands of private healthcare firms and other profit-driven companies. These are thought likely to be keen to influence or control how ACOs’ pooled budgets – potentially billions of pounds each – are spent.

“Rather than the Trojan horse for privatisation that some critics may fear, this is a bold attempt to unite a fractured system and stop people being pushed from pillar to post,” Keogh writes in a comment piece for the Guardian about the NHS as it approaches its 70th birthday on 5 July 2018.


Wonder who introduced this 'fractured system'...now, let me see...

In a poll of bungling incompetents, Lansley and Grayling must be tied for first place.

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PostPosted: Mon 01 Jan, 2018 1:34 pm 
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Good-afternoon, everyone


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PostPosted: Mon 01 Jan, 2018 1:38 pm 
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I've relatives and acquaintances believing they can order up a comfortable reality for themselves like choosing items from a menu.
'Where's our new unpolluted atmosphere? We voted on it and we won... because democracy'


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PostPosted: Mon 01 Jan, 2018 1:44 pm 
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gilsey wrote:
Indeed, plenty of affluent eurosceptics around here.
I think it boils down to a failure to understand that Britishness is no more than an accident of birth, which leads me to conclude that they're just not very bright.
Harsh, but their voting habits also lead one to that conclusion.

I think it isn't discussed because it's actually inexcusable, there's no facts to support it at all. The 'left-behind' at least have some justification.


I think the lack of facts is the bit that needs discussion. That nostalgia for the "good old days", when the old people of today were young and in their prime, is a powerful driving force for Brexit. We weren't in the EU back then and everything seemed better, they were younger and the rose-tinted glasses have erased all the negatives.

I don't think nostalgia is a bad thing as such and people vote one way or another for all sorts of odd reasons. I think the real reason it's contribution to Brexit is not discussed, is because it's not a good reason to go through the upheaval of leaving the EU for. Discussing it exposes the folly of offering a referendum in the first place and all our politicians are united in wanting to gloss over that folly because they all mostly supported that folly one way or another.

There's been a bit of a desire to make the vote seem necessary and the result appear, if not sensible, at least not frivolous by all parties as a consequence. If you find yourself unable to accept this narrative it can be a bit alienating. I'm left feeling politics to be little more than a charade. Which has always been the case, of course, but has never felt so stark to me personally as it does now.

The economic consequences of the global crash have been severe, with Coalition austerity serving to increase the impact on the least wealthy. Against this background, Cameron's decision to hold a highly politically motivated referendum that throws our fragile economy into even greater turmoil is the height of self-indulgent frivolity. I think it's important not to lose sight of that. I think it important not to legitimise Cameron's erroneous decision to hold an in-out referendum at such a poor time for our economic well-being by focusing exclusively on the fair grievances of some "left behind" working class people. Perhaps a referendum would have been justified at some point. But not now and not in the way Cameron did it. I'm sure I'm preaching to the converted here, but I feel it needs saying over and over again. His failure of leadership is going to be with us for a long time....

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PostPosted: Mon 01 Jan, 2018 1:57 pm 
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gilsey wrote:
Indeed, plenty of affluent eurosceptics around here.
I think it boils down to a failure to understand that Britishness is no more than an accident of birth, which leads me to conclude that they're just not very bright.
Harsh, but their voting habits also lead one to that conclusion.

I think it isn't discussed because it's actually inexcusable, there's no facts to support it at all. The 'left-behind' at least have some justification.
I think you're right.
Think about the qualities someone has when referring to them as 'bright'. I don't think you're being harsh, necessarily. The mind literally closes when frightened, overwhelmed, bombarded with too much information at once. No one demographic grouping is immune but some people will be more susceptible than others.


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PostPosted: Mon 01 Jan, 2018 2:04 pm 
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Cameron's creation of the 2016 EU referendum forces Parliament to act as it has. This is constitutional crisis. I'm not referring to a document the UK has or doesn't have when I write that. It's a question of legitimacy. The best MP the UK ever produced working for the good of people and country will be stymied by what we've got going on now.


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PostPosted: Mon 01 Jan, 2018 2:12 pm 
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I wrote the above because where is the one time a principled group of MPs or other representative could have legitimately stopped our current position? It was a series of actions, decisions written into a dumb-ass, inappropriately drawn up piece of legislation accumulating into the catastrophic result we're sitting on now. Writing up that 2016 EU referendum bill, there were plenty of MPs asking for younger people to vote, wondering about what kind of majority was necessary for it to be binding, asking for others to vote for in it and were shut down because the they were answered with, 'it's not a binding referendum'.


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PostPosted: Mon 01 Jan, 2018 2:17 pm 
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I wish I could speak about this instead because I'm not a good writer.
I think when Cameron bolted that was the time to stop and have a think for the good of the country and people.
there goes your boy, y'all - all his promises die with his resignation


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PostPosted: Mon 01 Jan, 2018 2:19 pm 
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And that statement about Cameron could have very well broken something we need


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PostPosted: Mon 01 Jan, 2018 2:23 pm 
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Quote:
That nostalgia for the "good old days", when the old people of today were young and in their prime, is a powerful driving force for Brexit

The people I'm talking about are much the same age as me and I don't have any nostalgia for a time when everything was better, I don't remember that it was, other than that I was young.
People who are a bit older maybe, in their 70s/80s, who'd lived a sheltered life.
IMO most people had a gut feeling about the EU and voted accordingly in 1975, I was 21 and Europe=good to me. Not much has changed!

The only way it was better was that 'one-nation' tories were the majority so it was a long way away from the threats to public services we see now. But that wouldn't necessarily be thought 'better' by these lifelong tory voters.

Quote:
it's not a good reason to go through the upheaval of leaving the EU for

That's the same thing I'm saying really, it's not facts, it's unjustifiable.
From the beginning, on the rare occasions when I've been forced into a discussion, I've told people it was madness to consider leaving the EU because it was administratively totally impractical. They just don't get it, probably because they've never had anything to do with import/export bureaucracy, to be fair!

I think the balance of public opinion is much more likely to be moved by persuading poor people to shift their view of the relative culpability of our govt v the EU for their present difficulties, than by addressing the grievances of a bunch of Little Englanders.

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PostPosted: Mon 01 Jan, 2018 2:53 pm 
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@Gilsey

I guess what I'm wondering is how big is the poorer leave voting constituency which was influenced by concrete things like wanting better jobs (immigration worries) and local investment (cost of EU worries). What if working class leave voters are mostly motivated by nostalgia too. I saw a Newsnight which went to South Wales where there was a lot of talk of leave connected to the mines shutting down from retired people. There was a connection with deprivation but it was also nostalgia. The younger people in the area didn't share the desire to leave the EU or to see a return of mining jobs.

I guess what I'm saying is that by and large the people who are going to be most negatively affected by Brexit already know that and already supported remain. The strongest anti-Brexit arguments that might cut through nostalgia relate to the impact on the NHS, but even then the idea the NHS managed perfectly well before we joined the EU would be hard to shake.

This is why I have felt from the start the best case scenario outcome would be a soft Brexit that keeps us in the single market. It cushions the economic blow considerably whilst fulfilling a nostalgic desire not based on any real concrete outcomes to simply not belong to the EU anymore. Some people would be very unhappy with a soft Brexit, but I suspect more people would be very unhappy with completely out or completely in. My hope is politicians generally will start thinking about what a majority of the electorate want, rather than a majority of leave voters, which is actually a minority overall.

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PostPosted: Mon 01 Jan, 2018 3:38 pm 
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This wasn't originally about Brexit, more about origins, identity & nostalgic/false memories, but hopefully fits:

'Where you stand'

The piper played a slow haunting air,
A cry of remorse for shores far more fair.
false memories of times, not so long ago
A heaven on earth which we'll never know,
but they say we've forgotten.

She pulled up a stool, with a nicotine grin,
and started to talk as the room seemed to spin,
A past always present, to precious to die,
Visions half seen through whiskey stained eyes

If somebody tells you the magic's returning,
watch the cards,hat and dice, and expect sleight of hand.
Hope for clear skies or rain, at the end of a rainbow,
if they promise you gold, least you know where you stand.
Nothing's forgotten...

They serve dreams of the future, laced with bile from the past,
Steeped in dark shadows from a lie that's been cast
If they make you an offer, you better beware,
Kid, the men at the top still take the liar's share.

They'll sell you short measure, with promises tall,
Fortunes to make, opportunities call,
Then say that you're privileged as they strip away
Hard won rights in the battles of yesterday,

If somebody tells you ...

From village to factory they fought all the way,
A struggle for justice, equal rights and fair pay
Now there's hardly a trick, that hasn't been tried
To knock us back down, small freedoms decried.

So some packed up their dreams, the little they own
And set off in hope that a more distant throne
Might bring them chances, so long denied
In the lands where our ancestors toiled and died.


If somebody tells you ...

She emptied the glass. Slammed it down, shook my head
Thought I'd not understood, a word that she said
But I've heard whiskey talk, too many times
It's the devil's own tongue & it's cruel and unkind.
True spirit forgotten.

And I dreamt of a night camped by a stream,
a whistle played softly, blown on the breeze
The stars of Orion, shone through the trees,
Until the rains came, but still we were free.

If somebody tells you..

Now a fire gives warmth as a fiddler plays
Memories blur to a comfortable haze,
There should be stars up above and soil at my feet
But I'll settle for a neon lit, wet tarmac street

If somebody tells you..


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PostPosted: Mon 01 Jan, 2018 3:46 pm 
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Hello.
Am back (though not from outer space)
HNY !

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PostPosted: Mon 01 Jan, 2018 3:55 pm 
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Good to see you TinyClanger2.

I've gone a bit maudlin today I'm afraid. Perhaps you could help lighten things up as bit :)

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PostPosted: Mon 01 Jan, 2018 4:07 pm 
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Willow904 wrote:
Good to see you TinyClanger2.

I've gone a bit maudlin today I'm afraid. Perhaps you could help lighten things up as bit :)


Contemplative?


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PostPosted: Mon 01 Jan, 2018 4:43 pm 
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PorFavor wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
Good to see you TinyClanger2.

I've gone a bit maudlin today I'm afraid. Perhaps you could help lighten things up as bit :)


Contemplative?


Yes, contemplative is probably a better word. Just not very cheerful or optimistic. And I do feel a little sorry for myself for ending up on the losing side once again. Of course, Brexit might not happen for other reasons, but I don't have much hope it will be halted because voters have changed their minds, so such an abandonment would come with it's own set of problems, making it difficult to know what best to hope for sometimes.

Still, at least there's always Robert Mueller and Trump to provide a slightly more upbeat and hopeful distraction from domestic woes. :popcorn:

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PostPosted: Mon 01 Jan, 2018 4:51 pm 
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Donaeld the Unready comments on the Toby Young story:

Donaeld The Unready


@donaeldunready
3h3 hours ago
More
Proud to announce that Tobias the Younger will be heading Witan Monastery Dissolution council. With no experience of monking, no working knowledge of Abbey life and history of poor quality scribing it's guaranteed he's not part of crooked East Coast Ecclesiastical establishment.

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PostPosted: Mon 01 Jan, 2018 6:13 pm 
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To properly welcome back tinyclanger2, here's George McCrae and the Kipper Fillets -



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PostPosted: Mon 01 Jan, 2018 6:19 pm 
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I love you all
I'm going to sleep now
it's raging storm outside
love,
cJA


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PostPosted: Mon 01 Jan, 2018 6:23 pm 
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Over 11,000 homes have stood empty for at least 10 years, data shows
Lib Dem research finds just one in 13 councils in England and Wales used powers to take over properties lying empty despite housing crisis and rising homelessness

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... are_btn_tw


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PostPosted: Mon 01 Jan, 2018 6:28 pm 
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@citizenJA

Rest well. I hope the storm abates - or at least doesn't disturb you. I quite like going to sleep when it's stormy, as long as I don't feel threatened by it.


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PostPosted: Mon 01 Jan, 2018 6:34 pm 
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PorFavor wrote:
To properly welcome back tinyclanger2, here's George McCrae and the Kipper Fillets -


He was on Jools last night, it was great,hadn't heard it for years.

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PostPosted: Mon 01 Jan, 2018 6:36 pm 
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@gilsey

I didn't see it - must be in the ether!


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PostPosted: Mon 01 Jan, 2018 6:40 pm 
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Ministers Cannot Name A Single Country That Asked UK For A Post-Brexit Trade Deal
'We all procrastinate from time to time, but Liam Fox is taking it to another level.'

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/f ... 1621b2589c


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PostPosted: Mon 01 Jan, 2018 6:43 pm 
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nazir afzal‏Verified account
@nazirafzal

I applied for this role
Thought as pro- chancellor of 1 univ, governor of another, 2 honorary doctorates from others, honorary fellowship & visiting lecturer at 3 more, I might get interview
I didn’t
Clearly I wasn’t what they were looking for!
He was

https://twitter.com/nazirafzal/status/9 ... 2664220672


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PostPosted: Mon 01 Jan, 2018 6:47 pm 
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will thorpe‏
@withorpe

Stagecoach/Virgin were due to pay £353m in 2020, £460m in 2021, £560m in 2022 &£645m in 2023 as part of Eastcoast contract.
In shocking case of corporate welfare Grayling allowed them to duck out.That's over £2b lost to us.
Stagecoach share price jumped 12%. Fares will rise 3.6%

https://twitter.com/withorpe/status/947857989054222336

The numbers are stark, and I still don't understand how its deemed an OK deal.


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PostPosted: Mon 01 Jan, 2018 6:55 pm 
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Mhairi Hunter‏
@MhairiHunter

This was Toby Young in 2012 writing in the Spectator about mainstreaming in schools.

https://twitter.com/MhairiHunter/status ... 3864737792

The wheelchair comments are bad enough but

"Any exam that isn't accessible to a functionally illiterate troglodyte with a mental age of six....."

Is, to my mind, enough to disbar him from any role in any educational establishment for life.

The full article http://www.nosacredcows.co.uk/blog/2026 ... olumn.html


Last edited by AngryAsWell on Mon 01 Jan, 2018 7:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon 01 Jan, 2018 6:57 pm 
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AngryAsWell wrote:
Ministers Cannot Name A Single Country That Asked UK For A Post-Brexit Trade Deal
'We all procrastinate from time to time, but Liam Fox is taking it to another level.'

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/f ... 1621b2589c

Quote:
Liam Fox is regarded as a semi-lunatic

-Adonis
:rofl: or :cry: ?

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PostPosted: Mon 01 Jan, 2018 7:13 pm 
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AngryAsWell wrote:
will thorpe‏
@withorpe

Stagecoach/Virgin were due to pay £353m in 2020, £460m in 2021, £560m in 2022 &£645m in 2023 as part of Eastcoast contract.
In shocking case of corporate welfare Grayling allowed them to duck out.That's over £2b lost to us.
Stagecoach share price jumped 12%. Fares will rise 3.6%

https://twitter.com/withorpe/status/947857989054222336

The numbers are stark, and I still don't understand how its deemed an OK deal.


Look at the way the payments zoom up. These bits were calculated on the basis of a step change in infrastructure (power supply, I think) which isn't going to be delivered now.

Stagecoach would likely see us in court. Hence a deal. I think the NAO are looking at it.


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PostPosted: Mon 01 Jan, 2018 7:44 pm 
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Toby Young should be held to ridicule for the ignorant eugenistic cunt he is.

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Last edited by HindleA on Mon 01 Jan, 2018 8:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon 01 Jan, 2018 7:45 pm 
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Tubby Isaacs wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:
will thorpe‏
@withorpe

Stagecoach/Virgin were due to pay £353m in 2020, £460m in 2021, £560m in 2022 &£645m in 2023 as part of Eastcoast contract.
In shocking case of corporate welfare Grayling allowed them to duck out.That's over £2b lost to us.
Stagecoach share price jumped 12%. Fares will rise 3.6%

https://twitter.com/withorpe/status/947857989054222336

The numbers are stark, and I still don't understand how its deemed an OK deal.


Look at the way the payments zoom up. These bits were calculated on the basis of a step change in infrastructure (power supply, I think) which isn't going to be delivered now.

Stagecoach would likely see us in court. Hence a deal. I think the NAO are looking at it.

I'm reading different views on this topic Tubby, the consensus of which seems to be that Virgin over bid to get the contract and now are looking to drop the "expensive" years. But as I know this is an area you excel in, I'll - sincerely & nicely - bow to your superior knowledge of the subject. :D :D


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PostPosted: Mon 01 Jan, 2018 7:46 pm 
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Swear more often was one of my NY Resolutions

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PostPosted: Mon 01 Jan, 2018 7:56 pm 
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Have to learn some Russian,conversation was limited to repetitions of "no problem"

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PostPosted: Mon 01 Jan, 2018 7:59 pm 
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AngryAsWell wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:
will thorpe‏
@withorpe

Stagecoach/Virgin were due to pay £353m in 2020, £460m in 2021, £560m in 2022 &£645m in 2023 as part of Eastcoast contract.
In shocking case of corporate welfare Grayling allowed them to duck out.That's over £2b lost to us.
Stagecoach share price jumped 12%. Fares will rise 3.6%

https://twitter.com/withorpe/status/947857989054222336

The numbers are stark, and I still don't understand how its deemed an OK deal.


Look at the way the payments zoom up. These bits were calculated on the basis of a step change in infrastructure (power supply, I think) which isn't going to be delivered now.

Stagecoach would likely see us in court. Hence a deal. I think the NAO are looking at it.

I'm reading different views on this topic Tubby, the consensus of which seems to be that Virgin over bid to get the contract and now are looking to drop the "expensive" years. But as I know this is an area you excel in, I'll - sincerely & nicely - bow to your superior knowledge of the subject. :D :D


You're right too!

They did overbid, and lost money on the first year of the contract. Likely the figures yer man quotes were overbid too, even if all the stuff delivered had been actually delivered. They've got a bit lucky with the DfT/Network Rail not doing what was expected, and have been able to renegotiate.

Nigel Harris, the editor of Rail Magazine, and strong pro-privatization, is very critical about the way the franchises have been let. He reckons there's been a lot more overbidding, and we're going to get some more of these.


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PostPosted: Mon 01 Jan, 2018 8:21 pm 
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Constance still with a hangover.

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PostPosted: Mon 01 Jan, 2018 8:35 pm 
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These Curry Chefs Feel Let Down Over Brexit And Now They Have No Idea Who To Vote For
Restaurant bosses are furious at politicians who promised them work permits in exchange for Brexit votes and are now offering them no assurances on immigration.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/aishagani/thes ... .won8Xm2bO


"For Khan, the lack of communication from ministers after Brexit is a huge issue. “We are angry as the Brexit ministers are not responding to our calls, they are not responding to our mails.”

Sorry but, well, never trust a tory - simples.


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PostPosted: Mon 01 Jan, 2018 8:37 pm 
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Over bidding is *great*.

But, if the public sector doesn't perform its side of the deal, we can't hold these private companies to these deals which are so good for us.


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PostPosted: Mon 01 Jan, 2018 8:40 pm 
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She's got a hare and a dog.I think she must have misunderstood.

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PostPosted: Mon 01 Jan, 2018 8:41 pm 
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(Worse puns-check)

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PostPosted: Mon 01 Jan, 2018 8:47 pm 
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HindleA wrote:
Have to learn some Russian,conversation was limited to repetitions of "no problem"


Work?

(I took the precaution of immortalising your post thus lessening the chance of your making me look like a complete fool by removing the original.)


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PostPosted: Mon 01 Jan, 2018 8:53 pm 
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Yeah,some fluent English.The guy helping me lift a ridiculous amount of butter like a machine though wasn't.Friendly enough etc

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PostPosted: Mon 01 Jan, 2018 8:56 pm 
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Toby at it again
Prof Tanja Bueltmann‏
@cliodiaspora

.@JoJohnsonUK Having just been alerted to this piece on “progressive eugenics” by #TobyYoung, I am calling on you to reverse your decision re: his OfS board memebership. This is entirely unacceptable

https://twitter.com/cliodiaspora/status ... 1700274176


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PostPosted: Mon 01 Jan, 2018 8:58 pm 
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SpinningHugo wrote:
Over bidding is *great*.

But, if the public sector doesn't perform its side of the deal, we can't hold these private companies to these deals which are so good for us.


Performance should be judged at the end of a contract not part way though it.


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PostPosted: Mon 01 Jan, 2018 9:00 pm 
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HindleA wrote:
Yeah,some fluent English.The guy helping me lift a ridiculous amount of butter like a machine though wasn't.Friendly enough etc


He said much the same about you . . .


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PostPosted: Mon 01 Jan, 2018 9:07 pm 
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SpinningHugo wrote:
Over bidding is *great*.

But, if the public sector doesn't perform its side of the deal, we can't hold these private companies to these deals which are so good for us.


True to a point. But a really spectacular overbid could bring a company down, with a long period of decline till it pops.Not really acceptable here.


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PostPosted: Mon 01 Jan, 2018 9:07 pm 
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To be fair,eugenics was the "in thing" historically across the spectrum,but it appears from the right at least to be ploughed nowadays,ironically,by the stupidest people or think others are using fake science and skewed statistics etc.

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PostPosted: Mon 01 Jan, 2018 9:18 pm 
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Bloody fireworks again. Not the whooshy-sounding ones which I imagine come with pretty effects, but the ones which sound like sustained heavy artillery fire, and actually make the windows vibrate. I don't like any sort of fireworks, but I can understand the attraction of the former type. What people enjoy about the latter, however, totally escapes me.

Edited to add -

Constance is totally unmoved by it all.


Last edited by PorFavor on Mon 01 Jan, 2018 9:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon 01 Jan, 2018 9:19 pm 
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I did have "fun" with a runaway pallet of 25 x ridiculous amounts of butter,I didn't notice the slope and ended up not quite where I had intended.No butter was injured.



PTO

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Last edited by HindleA on Mon 01 Jan, 2018 9:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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