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PostPosted: Thu 04 Jan, 2018 10:07 pm 
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SpinningHugo wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
An article in the FT suggest using the NHS much more as anti-Brexit argument. I like that, but it's going to be difficult.



I don't think people see the connecti0on. You see the reaction it gets on here. People don't want to know.

O_nly the oppostion coould sell it, and they don't want to do so.



Go on then.......tell me why I should make Brexit responsible for the current state of the NHS rather than the Tories.....I am listening

It was not long ago that the EU were ready to sign a deal with the USA that we were saying would undermine the NHS and now we are saying leaving will do the same.

The NHS is in a mess because the Tories have undermined the advances made during the last Labour Government in an ideological attempt to open it up to privatisation. Yes, Brexit will cause EU nurses and doctors to leave - but is that any more of an issue than removing bursaries. Yes, inflation due to a depreciating currency will make the NHS more expensive but I think arguing that 3-4% inflation is unacceptable is economically difficult to justify - or do we want a deflationary world?

Do you not think the wage freeze has done anything to cause the problems with recruitment

By blaming Brexit you allow the Tories to get off the hook. The opposition have been talking about the NHS but they have made the decision to use it just as a lever for opposing Brexit rather than in its own right would be counter-productive. I happen to agree. Where Brexit causes issues for the NHS they have been bringing those arguments forward - losing the nurses, risk of selling to the US health industry - but we have to be honest a lot of people don't really care, no matter what they say - if they did we wouldn't have a Tory Government

Personally, I find the messages that come from some Remainers confusing and unfocused. I am still not sure what constitutes a consensus on 'soft Brexit' as there are different opinions which have different problems to overcome


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PostPosted: Thu 04 Jan, 2018 10:11 pm 
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howsillyofme1 wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
An article in the FT suggest using the NHS much more as anti-Brexit argument. I like that, but it's going to be difficult.



I don't think people see the connecti0on. You see the reaction it gets on here. People don't want to know.

O_nly the oppostion coould sell it, and they don't want to do so.



Go on then.......tell me why I should make Brexit responsible for the current state of the NHS rather than the Tories.....I am listening

It was not long ago that the EU were ready to sign a deal with the USA that we were saying would undermine the NHS and now we are saying leaving will do the same.

The NHS is in a mess because the Tories have undermined the advances made during the last Labour Government in an ideological attempt to open it up to privatisation. Yes, Brexit will cause EU nurses and doctors to leave - but is that any more of an issue than removing bursaries. Yes, inflation due to a depreciating currency will make the NHS more expensive but I think arguing that 3-4% inflation is unacceptable is economically difficult to justify - or do we want a deflationary world?

Do you not think the wage freeze has done anything to cause the problems with recruitment

By blaming Brexit you allow the Tories to get off the hook. The opposition have been talking about the NHS but they have made the decision to use it just as a lever for opposing Brexit rather than in its own right would be counter-productive. I happen to agree. Where Brexit causes issues for the NHS they have been bringing those arguments forward - losing the nurses, risk of selling to the US health industry - but we have to be honest a lot of people don't really care, no matter what they say - if they did we wouldn't have a Tory Government

Personally, I find the messages that come from some Remainers confusing and unfocused. I am still not sure what constitutes a consensus on 'soft Brexit' as there are different opinions which have different problems to overcome

I think there will never be a consensus on soft Brexit. We just need all to chill, get together and oppose.


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PostPosted: Thu 04 Jan, 2018 10:11 pm 
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AngryAsWell wrote:
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“The Brexit Generation is dying out” - @daaronovitch with our latest #viewsnight

https://twitter.com/BBCNewsnight/status ... 1220697088


I find this argument distasteful and I know my elderly relations who died this year were Remainers, and even the one who was a Leaver I do not like to see people celebrating his death for political reasons

A better thing to do is to get the generation who are so pro-EU to get off their bloody arses and vote! They did in bigger numbers than predicted at the GE and look at the difference it made

Don't wish for people to die, get people to cast their vote and then the bias towards certain demographics would be negated


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PostPosted: Thu 04 Jan, 2018 10:17 pm 
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Quote:
I think there will never be a consensus on soft Brexit. We just need all to chill, get together and oppose


No, don't agree Paul.........we criticise the Brexit community for having no clear plan, why should those who want Remain have an easy life. None of us want this but we have to live with the result and be coherent

I would oppose an agreement on SM/CU that gave us no influence on the rules as it would really be a loss of sovereignty to an organisation I am not 100% happy with - we have 3 Governments in there with extreme right-wing Governments and I do not want them having more influence than we do on all aspects of our economy......as well as the likelihood it would collapse in short order and we would see the rise of the right-wing UKIP again.

I bet Farage would love us to take that option if he can't get an extreme hard Brexit initially


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PostPosted: Thu 04 Jan, 2018 10:20 pm 
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Yep,absolutely despicable.Certainly if I had voted leave and in the targeted category I would ever more be determined to spite the arsehole.


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PostPosted: Thu 04 Jan, 2018 10:24 pm 
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Dr Paul Williams MP‏Verified account
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I spent yesterday first listening to senior local NHS leaders and staff to understand what is happening, then talking to TV and radio before doing a shift in the GP Extended Access clinic in Stockton. I also wrote an article about the NHS crisis

Quote:
But what is increasingly clear is that the biggest – and perhaps even an existential – threat to the NHS is Brexit. Clean, hard, soft, deal or no deal – whatever the government comes back with from Brussels later this year, Brexit is already damaging the NHS and will be a stress multiplier for all the challenges facing the health service for decades to come.


https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/h ... -finish-it


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PostPosted: Thu 04 Jan, 2018 10:29 pm 
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We are doomed,whether in personal or general life is the worst attitude to take and makes for very bad decisions at best.I am sure many have made the best of actual can't do anything about its.


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PostPosted: Thu 04 Jan, 2018 10:30 pm 
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So where's our legal expert?

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I don’t see how Mr Starmer can dodge questions about Worboys simply by saying he doesn’t talk about what he did as DPP. Big, big scandal.


"Big, big scandal" or shit-stirring?

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PostPosted: Thu 04 Jan, 2018 10:35 pm 
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What did the DPP about Warboys?

Even if he knocked back attempts to prosecute, that doesn't mean that the evidence was good enough to get a conviction. Fuck that up, and you're risking a guilty man walking free for ever. Double jeopardy isn't easy- quite rightly.


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PostPosted: Thu 04 Jan, 2018 10:37 pm 
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AngryAsWell wrote:
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I spent yesterday first listening to senior local NHS leaders and staff to understand what is happening, then talking to TV and radio before doing a shift in the GP Extended Access clinic in Stockton. I also wrote an article about the NHS crisis

Quote:
But what is increasingly clear is that the biggest – and perhaps even an existential – threat to the NHS is Brexit. Clean, hard, soft, deal or no deal – whatever the government comes back with from Brussels later this year, Brexit is already damaging the NHS and will be a stress multiplier for all the challenges facing the health service for decades to come.


https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/h ... -finish-it



Don't disagree with much of that but there was already a crisis in staffing due to austerity and Government policies. Inflation brought on by depreciation of the pound already happened prior to Brexit and I never believed the Tories were going to be able to deliver sustained growth

I ind the links to Brexit pretty weak to be honest at the moment - they are coming in the future no doubt. The 10000 nurses mentioned in there is out of a total of more than half a million currently employed

I know Brexit is going to have a significant negative effect but the problem is if we blame it on that then it can be pretty easily muddied by people pointing out that these problems already existed prior to Brexit. I also happen to think the Tories should get the blame for it due to their policies before hand

The impact on the NHS should not be ignored but using it as a main lever for opposing Brexit can be easily undermined I would suggest


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PostPosted: Thu 04 Jan, 2018 10:37 pm 
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Roger, I looked at the WLFS record with FSM pupils. Is it me, or is that actually worse than average? Despite the much greater entries for ebac.

https://www.compare-school-performance. ... year=final

Note how only 8 of those who took GCSEs were low attainers at age 11.

53 high attainers.


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PostPosted: Thu 04 Jan, 2018 10:39 pm 
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HindleA wrote:
We are doomed,whether in personal or general life is the worst attitude to take and makes for very bad decisions at best.I am sure many have made the best of actual can't do anything about its.

Can you write more, please? I'm having some trouble following the thread.


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PostPosted: Thu 04 Jan, 2018 10:40 pm 
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AngryAsWell wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
An article in the FT suggest using the NHS much more as anti-Brexit argument. I like that, but it's going to be difficult.



I don't think people see the connecti0on. You see the reaction it gets on here. People don't want to know.

O_nly the oppostion coould sell it, and they don't want to do so.


I think it can be done, and by concentrating on the NHS as they are at the moment, Labour, have made a start. Now they just need to tie the ends together.


I think they've got "lying Tory NHS cutters" in the bag as an issue, more than ever. It's, as you saying, tying in that we need more of.


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PostPosted: Thu 04 Jan, 2018 10:40 pm 
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RogerOThornhill wrote:
So where's our legal expert?

Quote:
Patrick O'Flynn‏Verified account
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I don’t see how Mr Starmer can dodge questions about Worboys simply by saying he doesn’t talk about what he did as DPP. Big, big scandal.


"Big, big scandal" or shit-stirring?

The Secret Barrister has written a piece about this for iNews: https://inews.co.uk/opinion/comment/man ... n-9-years/


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PostPosted: Thu 04 Jan, 2018 10:40 pm 
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HindleA wrote:
Yep,absolutely despicable.Certainly if I had voted leave and in the targeted category I would ever more be determined to spite the arsehole.

Not sure if I'm following you right, so please forgive if not.
Aaronovitch is NOT calling for any "target groups" to die, he is simple stating facts that the older leave voters are dying whilst at the same time younger people are turning 18. We've had this in our family, lost a leaver and had three 18th birthdays in about 3 months.
It's an observation of demographic's, not a death wish on those who voted leave.


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PostPosted: Thu 04 Jan, 2018 10:41 pm 
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PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
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Before I became an MP, I was a representative for NHS workers for the National Union of Public Employees. I got to know many staff; nurses, doctors, porters, cleaners, security and admin staff – the NHS team.

We have a big decision on 23June, I value our NHS and admire the dedication of all its staff. I would not be voting for Remain if I thought there was any risk to our NHS whatsoever, the risk to the NHS is if we leave.

The NHS is Labour’s proudest creation. We founded it in 1948 because health is a human right, not a privilege.

But under the Tories it is in crisis. The NHS is in record deficit. What has damaged our NHS is the decisions made by this Tory Government – their top-down reorganisation and the insufficient funding.

Look at the decisions they’ve made:

* Cutting mental health budgets,

* Cutting nurses’ and midwives’ bursaries. I met with a group of nurses in Birmingham last week who had benefited from the bursary. Do you know what they said to me? “We want to protect it for the next generation.”

* Slashing social care for the elderly and disabled, making it unsafe to discharge them and causing bed-blocking,

* Opening up more of the NHS to be used by private patients,

* And, picking an unnecessary fight with junior doctors, all while cutting taxes for the super-rich and big corporations.

That crisis would be even worse if many on the Leave side had their way. People who have argued against the NHS and free healthcare on demand in principle. These same people now have the audacity to portray themselves as the saviours of the NHS. Most of the Leave side – the Tory right and UKIP – don’t even want there to be an NHS.

The millionaire funder of the Leave side, Arron Banks said: “If it were up to me, I’d privatise the NHS.”

Nigel Farage called for an insurance-based system to replace the NHS

Michael Gove is co-author of a book that says the NHS is “no longer relevant in the 21st century”. A book which calls for the NHS to be replaced by a new system of health provision in which people would pay money into individual health accounts.

And Boris Johnson, who said: “If people have to pay for NHS services, they will value them more”

Well, Michael, Nigel and Boris, people do value our NHS. Labour values our NHS. We created it and we will protect it from the likes of you.

A Vote to Leave is a vote to put our NHS in jeopardy, in the hands of those who want to break it up to end it as a service free at the point of use.

The Leave side has now admitted that a vote to leave would hit the economy that means less tax revenue to fund our NHS.

The independent Institute of Fiscal Studies predicts that to meet the Government’s deficit targets would require billions more in austerity around £10 billion of which could fall on the NHS.

We must repeal the Health & Social Care Act, an Act that opens up the NHS to more privatisation and that was backed by all those now feigning concern for our NHS.

It is Labour that fought in Europe to exclude the NHS from TTIP, and we want all public services protected. As it stands, we would veto TTIP.

The Vote Leave bus said “we send the EU £350 million a week, let’s fund the NHS instead”

There’s a couple of problems with that, firstly the UK Statistics Authority says that slogan is “misleading” and told them to stop using it.

The UK Statistics Authority is diplomatic when they say “misleading”, they mean dishonest. It’s an outright lie, and they know it.

And they’ve since been forced to re-paint the bus.

Does anyone really believe that those from the hard right of the Tories and UKIP would spend any extra funds on the NHS?

They’ve already promised this money again and again, on farming subsidies, fixing potholes and tax breaks no doubt for their rich friends and to corporations.

It’s not just me or Labour that is saying this, Dr Sarah Woollaston, a Conservative MP and a former GP was until last week supporting the Leave campaign.

This is what she had to say: “I could not have set foot on a battle bus that has at the heart of its campaign a figure that I know to be untrue”. Dr Sarah Woollaston is now voting for Remain, she said she feared what would happen to the NHS if we left what she called the “Brexit penalty”.

Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson are wolves in sheep’s clothing, using their fake concern for the NHS to mask their real agenda.

If you care about the NHS, as I do, as Labour does, as NHS staff do, then vote Remain.

The NHS is one of our greatest achievements, not just as a Labour Party, but as a country.

I’ve worked for NHS staff, the NHS has helped me and my family. I wouldn’t advocate Remain unless I knew our NHS was better off that way.

Fifty-two thousand EU nationals work in our NHS, as doctors, nurses and physiotherapists. They contribute to our country and save our lives.

EU nationals are 4.7 percent of our population. Yet they are five percent of NHS nurses and ten percent of NHS doctors.

If you care about our NHS, don’t just listen me, listen to NHS staff – every NHS workers’ union and royal college is backing Remain.

The risk to the NHS if we vote Leave is the damage to public finances caused by a hit to our economy, and the risk to our NHS by a victory for those who would scrap a universal NHS – free at the point of use.

The NHS is a force for civilisation. If, like us, you care about our health service, then listen to the dedicated staff here today, dedicated to the NHS and dedicated to remaining in Europe.

Please use your vote on 23 June to Remain and protect our NHS.


I think this is the right sort of approach - it is not all about Brexit, it puts the blame right where it lies.....at the feet of the Tory Government and those Tories who want us to Leave the EU so it can be exploited


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PostPosted: Thu 04 Jan, 2018 10:44 pm 
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I need a Babel fish and protection I keep getting bear hugs,though I think my 6ft 6 Slovakian minder may have returned home.


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PostPosted: Thu 04 Jan, 2018 10:44 pm 
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Yep, agree with that.


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PostPosted: Thu 04 Jan, 2018 10:45 pm 
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AngryAsWell wrote:
HindleA wrote:
Yep,absolutely despicable.Certainly if I had voted leave and in the targeted category I would ever more be determined to spite the arsehole.

Not sure if I'm following you right, so please forgive if not.
Aaronovitch is NOT calling for any "target groups" to die, he is simple stating facts that the older leave voters are dying whilst at the same time younger people are turning 18. We've had this in our family, lost a leaver and had three 18th birthdays in about 3 months.
It's an observation of demographic's, not a death wish on those who voted leave.


Not how I saw it - found it offensive, and the person who made the comments is an offensive individual

Why not encourage younger people to vote and then it would mean that we got a fairer result taking into account everyone's opinion

The older generation, in a democratic country, have every right to vote how they want and the younger generation should realise that by not voting they are allowing their voices to go unheard


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PostPosted: Thu 04 Jan, 2018 10:46 pm 
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@AAW still don't like the argument I am afraid


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PostPosted: Thu 04 Jan, 2018 10:48 pm 
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HindleA wrote:
I need a Babel fish and protection I keep getting bear hugs,though I think my 6ft 6 Slovakian minder may have returned home.


Are you doing crossword again ?


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PostPosted: Thu 04 Jan, 2018 10:48 pm 
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Here are the dots,let me help you join them.


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PostPosted: Thu 04 Jan, 2018 10:49 pm 
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HindleA wrote:
@AAW still don't like the argument I am afraid


No argument, just stating what's happening.


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PostPosted: Thu 04 Jan, 2018 10:50 pm 
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Quote:
Political ammunition is being loaded and turrets are whirring round towards Kier Starmer MP, who as Director of Public Prosecutions in 2009 is said to have taken the decision that no further proceedings against Worboys were appropriate in light of the indeterminate sentence passed.

Read more at: https://inews.co.uk/opinion/comment/man ... n-9-years/


Ah, that does sound like it could be awkward. Starmer's going to have to answer questions about that.

If there's compelling evidence he did a lot more offences, they can, I presume he can be prosecuted now.


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PostPosted: Thu 04 Jan, 2018 10:50 pm 
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I'm tired,so possibly ratty and/or tolerance level low.


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PostPosted: Thu 04 Jan, 2018 10:50 pm 
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Wow great discussion. Much enjoyed and appreciated ;-)


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PostPosted: Thu 04 Jan, 2018 10:51 pm 
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Way to present isn't a neutral act.


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PostPosted: Thu 04 Jan, 2018 10:52 pm 
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The chair of the Parole Board is a 2016 appointee. But I'd rather Labour didn't go down that route.


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PostPosted: Thu 04 Jan, 2018 10:56 pm 
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Tubby Isaacs wrote:
The chair of the Parole Board is a 2016 appointee. But I'd rather Labour didn't go down that route.


As long as the Tories don't look to exploit this - but they won't need to as their proxies will do it for them

Going after Starmer for this is very low as he will not be able to defend himself adequately but I fear the right wing press will go after him with both barrels as he is seen to be 'a traitor'

I hope I am wrong


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PostPosted: Thu 04 Jan, 2018 10:56 pm 
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HindleA wrote:
Here are the dots,let me help you join them.


I've been called "stupid" all my life - actually I'm dyslexic - so thanks for you help.

Demographics, its looking at whats happening. Not a call for people to die.


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PostPosted: Thu 04 Jan, 2018 10:59 pm 
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AngryAsWell wrote:
HindleA wrote:
@AAW still don't like the argument I am afraid


No argument, just stating what's happening.


you are I am sure - not calling into doubt your motivation and it is a reality as you say

Aaranovitch though is a different matter - I despise him and his smugness, and his tome offended me


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PostPosted: Thu 04 Jan, 2018 11:05 pm 
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..and so it starts
Investigation as patient dies in A&E waiting room at Russells Hall Hospital
By Harry Leather | Dudley | Health | Published: 8 hours ago

An investigation has been launched after a patient died in the waiting room of the A&E department at Russells Hall Hospital.


Read more at https://www.expressandstar.com/news/hea ... QLATECJ.99


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PostPosted: Thu 04 Jan, 2018 11:07 pm 
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AngryAsWell wrote:
..and so it starts
Investigation as patient dies in A&E waiting room at Russells Hall Hospital
By Harry Leather | Dudley | Health | Published: 8 hours ago

An investigation has been launched after a patient died in the waiting room of the A&E department at Russells Hall Hospital.


Read more at https://www.expressandstar.com/news/hea ... QLATECJ.99


My dad was in there in the latter days of his illness - he should have been in New Cross in Wednesfield but there was no space for him. My sister works at New Cross and so she had to make the rather unpleasant journey to RH every day to see him (with the unenviable task of taking my mother with her) - not somewhere that holds good memories for me


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PostPosted: Thu 04 Jan, 2018 11:11 pm 
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There's some interesting discussion about the article on here.

https://twitter.com/BarristerSecret/sta ... 0609440769

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PostPosted: Thu 04 Jan, 2018 11:18 pm 
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Goodnight, everyone
love,
cJA


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PostPosted: Thu 04 Jan, 2018 11:22 pm 
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Britain Elects‏
@britainelects
Following Following @britainelects

Labour GAIN Borehamwood Cowley Hill (Hertsmere) from Conservative.

The replies seem very happy about this

https://twitter.com/britainelects/statu ... 6268496896


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PostPosted: Thu 04 Jan, 2018 11:26 pm 
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AngryAsWell wrote:
Britain Elects‏
@britainelects
Following Following @britainelects

Labour GAIN Borehamwood Cowley Hill (Hertsmere) from Conservative.

The replies seem very happy about this

https://twitter.com/britainelects/statu ... 6268496896



Good news, loved the gif of Kinnock Jnr


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PostPosted: Thu 04 Jan, 2018 11:26 pm 
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Beat me to it.

Great stuff.

A few citizens of nowhere round there. Plus others not keen on NHS cuts too, of course.


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PostPosted: Thu 04 Jan, 2018 11:33 pm 
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Deleted


Last edited by HindleA on Thu 04 Jan, 2018 11:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu 04 Jan, 2018 11:35 pm 
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Borehamwood has lots of Jewish voters. Would be nice if they were swinging to Labour.


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PostPosted: Thu 04 Jan, 2018 11:36 pm 
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Prime Minister Theresa May Weighs In On Removing Homeless From Windsor

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way ... um=twitter


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PostPosted: Fri 05 Jan, 2018 12:29 am 
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https://www.gov.uk/government/consultat ... regulation


Open consultation
Implementation of the EU Portability Regulation


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