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PostPosted: Sun 07 Jan, 2018 8:36 pm 
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Btw my response to "the NHS is illiberal" is - "even if it is, so what?"



Yeah.

Screw liberalism.


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PostPosted: Sun 07 Jan, 2018 8:37 pm 
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Liberalism has its place. But if you support a DEMOCRATIC SOCIALIST party, then by definition it isn't the answer to *everything*.


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PostPosted: Sun 07 Jan, 2018 8:51 pm 
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Liberalism has its place. But if you support a DEMOCRATIC SOCIALIST party, then by definition it isn't the answer to *everything*.


The liberalism some people want is the ability to use cash to get quicker access to treatment which opens up all sorts of other potential issues

I think the NHS is a fantastic concept and, in general, works well

I understand the comment about it always being vulnerable to Government playing around with the finances - but that can be sorted by other means - mainly by the British electorate not voting in Tory Governments


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PostPosted: Sun 07 Jan, 2018 9:03 pm 
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Liberalism has its place. But if you support a DEMOCRATIC SOCIALIST party, then by definition it isn't the answer to *everything*.



I'd suggest that the 20th century should teach you that the forms of socialism that ignored liberalism weren't very attractive.

So "screw liberalism" and "so what?" are not very reflective.


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PostPosted: Sun 07 Jan, 2018 9:05 pm 
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SpinningHugo wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Liberalism has its place. But if you support a DEMOCRATIC SOCIALIST party, then by definition it isn't the answer to *everything*.



I'd suggest that the 20th century should teach you that the forms of socialism that ignored liberalism weren't very attractive.

So "screw liberalism" and "so what?" are not very reflective.

Where did AK say "screw liberalism"? Are you having trouble reading the words on the screen? Or being deliberately argumentative and obtuse? Because if it's the second, you can go away for a bit.


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PostPosted: Sun 07 Jan, 2018 9:05 pm 
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Not having everything run according to classical liberal shibboleths is not actually "ignoring liberalism".


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PostPosted: Sun 07 Jan, 2018 9:10 pm 
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I think throwing jargon around like 'liberalism' is not helpful as it can mean different things to different people

Your version in this context is to be able to buy yourself preferential treatment in a system meant specifically to rule that out - I would call that 'selfishness' and 'self-serving' than liberal

Some would say a system that takes anyone no matter who and what they are and treats them due to their needs and prioritises due to the seriousness is very liberal

I suggest you go over to the Libdem Voice page where they spend many pages discussing the meaning of 'liberalism'

I would rather judge what the ethos and reality is of a system rather than defining it against rather meaningless jargon


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PostPosted: Sun 07 Jan, 2018 9:38 pm 
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https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... uk-imports
Quote:
More than 130,000 UK firms will be forced to pay VAT upfront for the first time on all goods imported from the European Union after Brexit, under controversial legislation to be considered by MPs on Monday.

and
Quote:
On Sunday night the Tory chair of the all-party Treasury select committee, Nicky Morgan, said the committee would launch an urgent investigation. She also said she would be writing to the head of HM Revenue and Customs to see what contingency plans were being made to avoid hitting UK firms.

Nicky Morgan's a lawyer, I think? She should know better.

This is so mundane to anyone who knows anything about VAT and importing, and exactly the sort of thing that's appalled me about the idea of Brexit from the beginning. John Major understood this stuff, years ago he should have set up an education scheme for tory MPs to spend time in HMCE learning about all the 'red tape' that the EU helped us to avoid.

How can the legislation to bring this back be controversial? TINA.

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PostPosted: Sun 07 Jan, 2018 9:46 pm 
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Not having everything run according to classical liberal shibboleths is not actually "ignoring liberalism".



And how is saying that one of the main arguments against the NHS is that it is illiberal the same as claiming that "everything run according to classical liberal shibboleths"?

As all too often, you've made it far too easy on yourself.


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PostPosted: Sun 07 Jan, 2018 9:52 pm 
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You are against the NHS even though you rarely have time to use it,and when you do you want the freedom to buy preferential treatment.I don't think you are making a very good "liberal" case.


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PostPosted: Sun 07 Jan, 2018 9:57 pm 
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Liberalism isn't just freedom it's equality too.

I'd have thought universal healthcare and education would be key to a successful liberal society. We ensure everyone has the best chance in life then give them the freedom to do what they want.


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PostPosted: Sun 07 Jan, 2018 10:02 pm 
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Do we really need to carry this on.........as was the case yesterday when someone alluded to Captain Rum in Blackadder...........your views have not gained much support from the other members of the board and you have really brought forward no interesting points to discuss

This deadend focus on 'illiberalism' is really not that useful or informative

Willow has made a couple of great posts on the NHS today and the comparison with elsewhere - we have also some other links to refer to

On Friday we had Worboys, yesterday was Iran and today is the NHS - what is the subject that you are going to bring up tomorrow to attack Labour or members of the leadership?

I wouldn't mind too much as there are many subjects we could have some good discussion over (Tubby and I are often at odds but we normally are polite to each other nowadays) but we never really get anything of substance


Last edited by howsillyofme1 on Sun 07 Jan, 2018 10:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun 07 Jan, 2018 10:03 pm 
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PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
Liberalism isn't just freedom it's equality too.

I'd have thought universal healthcare and education would be key to a successful liberal society. We ensure everyone has the best chance in life then give them the freedom to do what they want.



The short answer is "no it isn't".


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PostPosted: Sun 07 Jan, 2018 10:04 pm 
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SpinningHugo wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
Liberalism isn't just freedom it's equality too.

I'd have thought universal healthcare and education would be key to a successful liberal society. We ensure everyone has the best chance in life then give them the freedom to do what they want.



The short answer is "no it isn't".



Is that a quote from Captain Rum?


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PostPosted: Sun 07 Jan, 2018 10:13 pm 
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42598775


BBC China editor Carrie Gracie quits in equal pay row


Last edited by HindleA on Sun 07 Jan, 2018 10:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun 07 Jan, 2018 10:15 pm 
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SpinningHugo wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
Liberalism isn't just freedom it's equality too.

I'd have thought universal healthcare and education would be key to a successful liberal society. We ensure everyone has the best chance in life then give them the freedom to do what they want.



The short answer is "no it isn't".

Oh yes it is ;-)


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PostPosted: Sun 07 Jan, 2018 10:21 pm 
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Ok so I spend a few days under the duvet with flu and when I come out Trump is having to justify his own sanity and Toby Young has deleted thousands of his tweets leering at various womens boobs. Perhaps I should be ill more often.

'Liberalism' is in the eye of the beholder. I was once a Lib-Dem, posted the leaflets and all that shit, yet got banned from LibDem Voice for being 'unremittingly negative' when they went into coalition with the Tories. The reason I was a left wing liberal at the time was because of the godawful authoritarian streak that ran through New Labour from top to bottom, they were the illiberal enemy, and yet it was my own party that tried to shut me up because they didn't like what I was saying. Along with many, many others. We all turned out to be right of course.

Curiously Mark Pack, the person who ran the forum and banned all dissenting voices is still running it, and is still held in some esteem in what's left of the carcass of the party he helped to cripple, so it would appear that, like Homer, they haven't learned a thing.

Liberalism is a spectrum. Like Autism. Or a rainbow.


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PostPosted: Sun 07 Jan, 2018 10:21 pm 
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I got a fair few grand backpayments from the Council on the "equal pay for equivalent " work thing.


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PostPosted: Sun 07 Jan, 2018 10:28 pm 
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PostPosted: Sun 07 Jan, 2018 10:32 pm 
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Goodnight, everyone
love,
cJA


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PostPosted: Sun 07 Jan, 2018 10:33 pm 
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PostPosted: Sun 07 Jan, 2018 10:35 pm 
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I usually skim through 'today's paper' on the G website, that being the observer today, and nearly always read the letters as they're often better than most of the articles.

The first two letters here are exactly what I expect, excellent.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ore-brexit

These 3, on the NHS, are absolute rubbish.
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/j ... oliticians

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PostPosted: Sun 07 Jan, 2018 10:37 pm 
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Over to PF.


Last edited by HindleA on Sun 07 Jan, 2018 10:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun 07 Jan, 2018 10:38 pm 
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PostPosted: Sun 07 Jan, 2018 10:39 pm 
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Apologies for the (xx'd) link to Guido, but it's interesting to remember how recently the conservatives in parliament went to town, in an organised way, to object about Jared O'Mara's tweets

hxxps://order-order.com/2017/10/24/tori ... hip-jared/

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PostPosted: Sun 07 Jan, 2018 10:43 pm 
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You'd think equality of opportunity would be somethng that would be a given in a Liberal party, and it was in the version I joined under Charlie Kennedy, but Clegg and his green book mates trashed that social democratic foundation and...well we're all suffering the consequences as it made it easier for them to get into bed with the Tories and perform unspeakable acts.

Never forget that was all voted on and approved by the membership who attended a hastily arranged conference at two days notice. The rest of us weren't asked.


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PostPosted: Sun 07 Jan, 2018 10:44 pm 
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And then there's this from Sarah Vine (history - it's the gift that just keeps on giving)

Attachment:
Screen Shot 2018-01-07 at 22.43.27.png
Screen Shot 2018-01-07 at 22.43.27.png [ 67.59 KiB | Viewed 358 times ]

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PostPosted: Sun 07 Jan, 2018 10:48 pm 
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Night night.


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PostPosted: Sun 07 Jan, 2018 10:56 pm 
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This is for Ray Thomas of the Moody Blues who died yesterday.

Thanks man. Keep on thinking free.



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PostPosted: Sun 07 Jan, 2018 11:42 pm 
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My father in his youth in the Scottish borders in the late 60's tried to get a frock coat made like those you see above and had to make do with an affair made of curtains. It still exists, and I think it's magnificent.

It's a coat made out of what looks like flock wallpaper. With massive gold buttons.

The idea that the hippy revolution went no further than Carnaby street is total crap.


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PostPosted: Sun 07 Jan, 2018 11:42 pm 
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The hyperbole continues...

Quote:
Michael Gove
‏Verified account
@michaelgove
1h1 hour ago
More Michael Gove Retweeted Fraser Nelson
A powerful piece by @FraserNelson - reinforcing how much @toadmeister has done to help improve state schools


Opening 4 schools in one small part of London?

Right...don't recall that doing anything to improve anywhere else. And he couldn't even recruit a decent HT - he needed Sally Coates to help out when the 2nd left under a cloud.

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PostPosted: Mon 08 Jan, 2018 1:26 am 
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https://www.gov.uk/government/consultat ... al-wedding


Open consultation
Relaxation of licensing hours for the Royal Wedding


Have responded in the most negative terms."Royal Wedding Rage"


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PostPosted: Mon 08 Jan, 2018 1:27 am 
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(No I haven't)


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