FlyTheNest

A haven
It is currently Sun 21 Jan, 2018 10:58 am

All times are UTC


Forum rules


Welcome to FTN. New posters are welcome to join the conversation. You can follow us on Twitter @FlythenestHaven You are responsible for the content you post. This is a public forum. Treat it as if you are speaking in a crowded room. Site admin and Moderators are volunteers who will respond as quickly as they are able to when made aware of any complaints. Please do not post copyrighted material without the original authors permission.



Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 155 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Tuesday 9th January 2018
PostPosted: Tue 09 Jan, 2018 8:08 am 
Online
Site Admin

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 6:27 pm
Posts: 5020
Has thanked: 1578 times
Been thanked: 8291 times
Toby Young gone.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42617922

How we shall miss his caustic wit.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue 09 Jan, 2018 8:15 am 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 11:40 pm
Posts: 18224
Has thanked: 16178 times
Been thanked: 27503 times
Wasn't just before he got into education.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Tuesday 9th January 2018
PostPosted: Tue 09 Jan, 2018 8:20 am 
Online
Prime Minister
User avatar

Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 1:40 pm
Posts: 4260
Has thanked: 9522 times
Been thanked: 10780 times
https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ssion=true

Quote:
Our approach for a jobs-first Brexit, which involves retaining the benefits of the single market, is through negotiation with the EU.


This from a Labour spokesman. To benefit from the single market, you need to accept the four freedoms as the benefits derive from those freedoms of movement. That's what makes it a single market in the first place. Most people would describe a country that benefits from freedom of movement within a bloc of countries as being "in" that common or single market bloc.

And yet we have this:
Quote:
Jeremy Corbyn has insisted the UK cannot be a member of the single market after Brexit, disappointing some of his pro-European Union MPs.

The Labour leader told colleagues that it was not possible to stay in the single market, as he set out his Brexit policy to the parliamentary party on Monday night.


It is possible. He's talking to MPs here, not the public, so why say things that are clearly incorrect? If he means to say it would be undesirable or political difficult, then he should say so. Because if he keeps saying that we can enjoy the benefits of the single market without being "in" the single market then he comes across as either disingenuous or an idiot. Neither is attractive. Starmer has moved on to talking about keeping single market "on the table", why can't Corbyn? I really want to get behind him, but he's making it hard. Perhaps if someone has a direct quote, I could make more sense of it, but I doubt it.

:wall:

_________________
“Find a nice, self sufficient hilltop, and fortify it.” - The Kraken Wakes


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue 09 Jan, 2018 8:26 am 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 9:18 pm
Posts: 6677
Has thanked: 4095 times
Been thanked: 15495 times
And on the plus side the frothing right are furious. There's an awful lot of whataboutery around this morning.

Are these the same people who were baying for Starmer's blood last week before even knowing his involvement with the case? Well, of course they are.

Also, it makes Jo Johnson look silly for having to defend him yesterday.

What a start to the day...

_________________
FTN's supplier of tedious, pedantic education policy waffle; and Pedant-in-Chief generally.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue 09 Jan, 2018 8:32 am 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 9:18 pm
Posts: 6677
Has thanked: 4095 times
Been thanked: 15495 times
Incidentally I can't help thinking the announcement was timed to divert attention away from yesterday's reshuffleshambles.

_________________
FTN's supplier of tedious, pedantic education policy waffle; and Pedant-in-Chief generally.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue 09 Jan, 2018 9:05 am 
Online
Prime Minister
User avatar

Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 1:40 pm
Posts: 4260
Has thanked: 9522 times
Been thanked: 10780 times
RogerOThornhill wrote:
Incidentally I can't help thinking the announcement was timed to divert attention away from yesterday's reshuffleshambles.


Deeply embarrassing example of Theresa May failing to show leadership to divert attention away from a deeply embarrassing example of Theresa May failing to show leadership? Yeah, that'll work. :)

_________________
“Find a nice, self sufficient hilltop, and fortify it.” - The Kraken Wakes


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue 09 Jan, 2018 9:10 am 
Online
Prime Minister
User avatar

Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 1:40 pm
Posts: 4260
Has thanked: 9522 times
Been thanked: 10780 times
McVey's a real piss take.

Voted out by the electorate, so given a nice cosy safe seat and now back at DWP.

_________________
“Find a nice, self sufficient hilltop, and fortify it.” - The Kraken Wakes


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue 09 Jan, 2018 9:25 am 
Online
Prime Minister

Joined: Tue 26 Aug, 2014 11:18 am
Posts: 9369
Has thanked: 18103 times
Been thanked: 16801 times
Good morfternoon.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue 09 Jan, 2018 9:36 am 
Online
Prime Minister
User avatar

Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 1:40 pm
Posts: 4260
Has thanked: 9522 times
Been thanked: 10780 times
A grumpy Justine Greening on the backbenches was a bit of a plus, I guess. Trying to look on the bright side. Not really succeeding, though. Boris, Hunt and Gove cast a very long shadow.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/s ... -sense-all
Quote:
Then remember that Greening is a Remainer who represents one of the most pro-Remain constituencies in the country and in possession of a gossamer-thin majority after the defection of many pro-Remain Conservatives to other parties, and that taking away a job she enjoyed was always going to give her licence to quit the Cabinet entirely and throw all her energies into saving her seat, and it is hard to see the upside from Theresa May’s perspective.

_________________
“Find a nice, self sufficient hilltop, and fortify it.” - The Kraken Wakes


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue 09 Jan, 2018 9:38 am 
Online
Prime Minister

Joined: Tue 26 Aug, 2014 11:18 am
Posts: 9369
Has thanked: 18103 times
Been thanked: 16801 times
Quote:
Nurses priced out of housing developments on former NHS sites

Four out of five homes on NHS land sold by government too expensive for nursing staff and only one in 10 offered at social rent


“These NHS sites are community assets – they should be used to deliver community benefits,” said Joe Beswick, housing lead at NEF [New Economics Foundation]. “Public land, which is owned by all of us, is being flogged off to developers so they can make massive profits, while producing a tiny amount of affordable housing.”

“This is a government with the wrong priorities on housing,” said John Healey, Labour’s shadow secretary of state for housing. “Ministers should be maximising the number of new genuinely affordable homes on public land, not treating low-cost housing as an afterthought.” (Guardian)


https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/jan/09/nurses-priced-out-of-housing-developments-on-former-nhs-sites


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue 09 Jan, 2018 9:51 am 
Online
Prime Minister
User avatar

Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 1:40 pm
Posts: 4260
Has thanked: 9522 times
Been thanked: 10780 times
Brexit in the wider European context:

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ssion=true

Quote:
Beware the illiberal alliance of Poland and Hungary, a grave threat to the EU
Will Hutton

_________________
“Find a nice, self sufficient hilltop, and fortify it.” - The Kraken Wakes


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue 09 Jan, 2018 9:55 am 
Online
Prime Minister
User avatar

Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 1:40 pm
Posts: 4260
Has thanked: 9522 times
Been thanked: 10780 times
Toby Young falling on his sword has failed to overshadow the reshuffle postmortem on Victoria Derbyshire this morning, you'll be pleased to hear. They even door-stepped Hunt, asking if his refusal to move has undermined May.

_________________
“Find a nice, self sufficient hilltop, and fortify it.” - The Kraken Wakes


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue 09 Jan, 2018 10:35 am 
Offline
Secretary of State

Joined: Wed 27 Aug, 2014 8:15 pm
Posts: 1322
Has thanked: 93 times
Been thanked: 2617 times
Two today threads merged...

_________________
my barking contribution


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue 09 Jan, 2018 10:36 am 
Offline
Secretary of State

Joined: Wed 27 Aug, 2014 8:15 pm
Posts: 1322
Has thanked: 93 times
Been thanked: 2617 times
Willow904 wrote:
https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/08/jeremy-corbyn-eu-single-market-after-brexit?__twitter_impression=true

Quote:
Our approach for a jobs-first Brexit, which involves retaining the benefits of the single market, is through negotiation with the EU.


This from a Labour spokesman. To benefit from the single market, you need to accept the four freedoms as the benefits derive from those freedoms of movement. That's what makes it a single market in the first place. Most people would describe a country that benefits from freedom of movement within a bloc of countries as being "in" that common or single market bloc.

And yet we have this:
Quote:
Jeremy Corbyn has insisted the UK cannot be a member of the single market after Brexit, disappointing some of his pro-European Union MPs.

The Labour leader told colleagues that it was not possible to stay in the single market, as he set out his Brexit policy to the parliamentary party on Monday night.


It is possible. He's talking to MPs here, not the public, so why say things that are clearly incorrect? If he means to say it would be undesirable or political difficult, then he should say so. Because if he keeps saying that we can enjoy the benefits of the single market without being "in" the single market then he comes across as either disingenuous or an idiot. Neither is attractive. Starmer has moved on to talking about keeping single market "on the table", why can't Corbyn? I really want to get behind him, but he's making it hard. Perhaps if someone has a direct quote, I could make more sense of it, but I doubt it.

:wall:


I think Labour's leadership are being, of all things, quite like Blair over Iraq - they've made a face and the wind changed. They've decided this is the principle and that's it, everything must follow from there.

_________________
my barking contribution


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue 09 Jan, 2018 10:36 am 
Online
Site Admin

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 6:27 pm
Posts: 5020
Has thanked: 1578 times
Been thanked: 8291 times
adam wrote:
Two today threads merged...

Hey I merged them!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue 09 Jan, 2018 10:37 am 
Online
Site Admin

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 6:27 pm
Posts: 5020
Has thanked: 1578 times
Been thanked: 8291 times
@adam

Will we ever know who merged them? ;-)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue 09 Jan, 2018 10:40 am 
Online
Site Admin

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 6:27 pm
Posts: 5020
Has thanked: 1578 times
Been thanked: 8291 times
Damn it was in fact adam. And I was so proud of myself :lol:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue 09 Jan, 2018 10:47 am 
Online
Site Admin

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 6:27 pm
Posts: 5020
Has thanked: 1578 times
Been thanked: 8291 times
adam wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/08/jeremy-corbyn-eu-single-market-after-brexit?__twitter_impression=true

Quote:
Our approach for a jobs-first Brexit, which involves retaining the benefits of the single market, is through negotiation with the EU.


This from a Labour spokesman. To benefit from the single market, you need to accept the four freedoms as the benefits derive from those freedoms of movement. That's what makes it a single market in the first place. Most people would describe a country that benefits from freedom of movement within a bloc of countries as being "in" that common or single market bloc.

And yet we have this:
Quote:
Jeremy Corbyn has insisted the UK cannot be a member of the single market after Brexit, disappointing some of his pro-European Union MPs.

The Labour leader told colleagues that it was not possible to stay in the single market, as he set out his Brexit policy to the parliamentary party on Monday night.


It is possible. He's talking to MPs here, not the public, so why say things that are clearly incorrect? If he means to say it would be undesirable or political difficult, then he should say so. Because if he keeps saying that we can enjoy the benefits of the single market without being "in" the single market then he comes across as either disingenuous or an idiot. Neither is attractive. Starmer has moved on to talking about keeping single market "on the table", why can't Corbyn? I really want to get behind him, but he's making it hard. Perhaps if someone has a direct quote, I could make more sense of it, but I doubt it.

:wall:


I think Labour's leadership are being, of all things, quite like Blair over Iraq - they've made a face and the wind changed. They've decided this is the principle and that's it, everything must follow from there.

That's not my reading at all.

Both Corbyn and McDonnell have said quite clearly they want to focus on outcomes not structures. And that's what they are doing.

Meanwhile Starmer has said there will be lots of opposition to the bills as they come through Parliament.

Interviewers, perhaps fairly enough, will keep asking these "totemic" questions. People will continue to be disappointed and Labour will try to carry on with their approach.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue 09 Jan, 2018 10:49 am 
Online
Chancellor

Joined: Thu 28 Aug, 2014 9:51 am
Posts: 1960
Has thanked: 4936 times
Been thanked: 4728 times
Peter Jukes

Verified account

@peterjukes
3h3 hours ago
More
Not sad to see @Toadmeister depart from the OfS, but what is this government body which wants to 'regulate' 'free speech' in Universities?

The whole premise is an oxymoron, even though the moron has now departed

_________________
One world, like it or not - John Martyn


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue 09 Jan, 2018 10:50 am 
Online
Site Admin

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 6:27 pm
Posts: 5020
Has thanked: 1578 times
Been thanked: 8291 times
I truly believe that it isn't possible for us to rewind and go back to pre-referendum.

But I also truly believe that Brexit can largely be avoided. The rewards are in looking forward. The first thing to do is get rid of the Tory government.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue 09 Jan, 2018 11:05 am 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 8:26 pm
Posts: 6780
Has thanked: 677 times
Been thanked: 14994 times
Well, I wasn't expecting Young to be disposed of as easily as that.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue 09 Jan, 2018 11:16 am 
Online
Speaker of the House

Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 10:34 am
Posts: 2903
Has thanked: 815 times
Been thanked: 5171 times
Good morning

We should not get into semantics again on what 'Single Market' actually means - but to do that we do not need people making comments like 'it is incorrect' or 'it is correct'. It is an interpretation that each person has - it may be confusing and obfuscating, but then that may be the aim!

History will judge whether Corbyn is playing a blinder or is making a mistake - none of us know at the moment, so saying people are right or wrong to do certain things is not with the benefit of hindsight. It could be the Leavers are right and we are wrong - it may be the way to the promised land....I think the probability is very low and I do not support it but the future may show us to have been wrong.

I will make my position clear - on about the only subject I agree with Hugo - is that the only solution is to Remain (not soft brexit but stay in)

The reason is that I find it really difficult to accept a Brexit that means we are subject to all the rules and obligations with no say or influence on them

The only solution that, I think, delivers a no border option in Ireland and access to European markets at the same level to now is one where we are fully tied into the SM/CU - something no other country outside the EU has - and I think there is a very good reason why - it would not be acceptable to their voters. And it probably wouldn't be acceptable to ours either and in time it would collapse

We may be able to stick at Norway if Something can be done about the CU and Ireland but as I live in a country with that arrangement I can attest there is a hard border - with customs men and stopping of vehicles

My assumption, of course, is based on there being no way to have the 'technology' solutions for the border as descrived by the Tories - or that we don'taccept a border at the GB, rather than UK border. Both of which seem unlikely at the moment

And just for the removal of doubt, I fundamentally disagree with Hugo and his focus on Labour's position on A50 - to me the importance of Labour's position on that has been over-estimated based on the Parliamentary arithmetic

If Labour apply their tests correctly then we are looking at SM/CU - and I think at some point they will realise that to deliver them in an acceptable way is to stay in. Obviously that will take a big change of direction and also need them to be in power.....I cannot see any Tories being brave enough to go back on Brexit. Perhaps Labour won't be either but at least they have committed to something that would enable them to justify it and we can hold them too

History will look back and judge when and where errors were made by individuals and parties. Some we know about already, some we don't even consider important and some we think are important will turn out to have been over-egged (this is my view on the A50 vote by the way but that potentially could go either way I guess). Historians will look back on this in the future and draw conclusions but we, in the heat of it all, are not the best placed to judge. We just go on the best view we have with the data available


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue 09 Jan, 2018 11:26 am 
Online
Speaker of the House

Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 10:34 am
Posts: 2903
Has thanked: 815 times
Been thanked: 5171 times
and just as an addition to that rather long last post

The accepted view was that choosing Jeremy Corbyn as leader was going to lead to a massibve defeat for Labour at the next election. This was the prevailing view until 10pm (or even later) on June 8 this year......it was wrong.

Not that a lot of the people who said it knew they were wrong - they were looking at the data. Some others looked at the data and thought it was flawed (see DrMibbles on UKPR who was predicting Labour winning Canterbury the day before the election based on analysis of the polls and their assumptions)

Most attempts at predicting the future - from pundits and pollsters - actually prove quite well off the mark - and they do it for a job!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue 09 Jan, 2018 11:33 am 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 8:26 pm
Posts: 6780
Has thanked: 677 times
Been thanked: 14994 times
Shame that Chuka's theatrical - and very obviously pre-planned - flounce last night got overshadowed by other things eh ;)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue 09 Jan, 2018 11:33 am 
Offline
Backbencher

Joined: Mon 22 Dec, 2014 8:54 am
Posts: 94
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 293 times
Now THIS is a reshuffle- Major reshuffle underway in Poland: PM Morawiecki sacks defence secretary Macierewicz, foreign secretary Waszczykowski, health minister Radziwiłł, environment minister Szyszko, and infrastructure secretary Adamczyk
11:13 AM - Jan 9, 2018


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue 09 Jan, 2018 11:43 am 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 11:40 pm
Posts: 18224
Has thanked: 16178 times
Been thanked: 27503 times
https://www.theguardian.com/cities/ng-i ... or-a-house


Made In Stoke,episode 2


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue 09 Jan, 2018 11:48 am 
Offline
First Secretary of State

Joined: Mon 16 Feb, 2015 1:22 pm
Posts: 3988
Has thanked: 150 times
Been thanked: 2261 times
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Shame that Chuka's theatrical - and very obviously pre-planned - flounce last night got overshadowed by other things eh ;)



Chuka is one of those who voted to trigger art 50 without conditions. We should never, ever, let him be forgiven for that. His attempts after that to portray himself as a passionate europhile deserve nothing but contempt.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue 09 Jan, 2018 11:48 am 
Online
Chancellor

Joined: Thu 28 Aug, 2014 9:51 am
Posts: 1960
Has thanked: 4936 times
Been thanked: 4728 times
Quote:
Phil BC Retweeted

paul ewart


@paulewart23
6h6 hours ago
More paul ewart Retweeted Simon
A point I've long made. The EU literature is inconsistent on this sliding between member status and associate status when referring to Norway, Iceland etc.paul ewart added,
Quote:
Simon

@simonk_133
Corbyn getting laughed at on here for this, but he's only saying the same as not-Corbynite think tank IPPR: "In our view... the only countries that are meaningfully members of the single market are
the EU member states." https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/950439944228671488


I think the problem arises because so many people can see now that there is no possibility that the govt's deal can meet Labour's 6 tests.
I don't believe that Corbyn is a leaver at heart any more than Starmer is, but how can they get from here to where they and the country need to be? I don't pretend to know the answer, and I don't think it lies in the past either, I don't see how they could have acted differently.

_________________
One world, like it or not - John Martyn


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue 09 Jan, 2018 11:50 am 
Offline
First Secretary of State

Joined: Mon 16 Feb, 2015 1:22 pm
Posts: 3988
Has thanked: 150 times
Been thanked: 2261 times
gilsey wrote:
Quote:
Phil BC Retweeted

paul ewart


@paulewart23
6h6 hours ago
More paul ewart Retweeted Simon
A point I've long made. The EU literature is inconsistent on this sliding between member status and associate status when referring to Norway, Iceland etc.paul ewart added,
Quote:
Simon

@simonk_133
Corbyn getting laughed at on here for this, but he's only saying the same as not-Corbynite think tank IPPR: "In our view... the only countries that are meaningfully members of the single market are
the EU member states." https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/950439944228671488


I think the problem arises because so many people can see now that there is no possibility that the govt's deal can meet Labour's 6 tests.
I don't believe that Corbyn is a leaver at heart any more than Starmer is, but how can they get from here to where they and the country need to be? I don't pretend to know the answer, and I don't think it lies in the past either, I don't see how they could have acted differently.



Labour's six tests are just a joke, nobody takes them seriously.

Labour provides no serious opposition on Brexit whatsoever, for reasons that are understandable but not forgivable.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue 09 Jan, 2018 11:52 am 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 8:26 pm
Posts: 6780
Has thanked: 677 times
Been thanked: 14994 times
SpinningHugo wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Shame that Chuka's theatrical - and very obviously pre-planned - flounce last night got overshadowed by other things eh ;)



Chuka is one of those who voted to trigger art 50 without conditions. We should never, ever, let him be forgiven for that. His attempts after that to portray himself as a passionate europhile deserve nothing but contempt.


Well we disagree about how Labour should have approached A50 of course, but Chuka was also on record as saying - shortly after the referendum - that freedom of movement had to end and Labour should be prepared to "sacrifice" SM/CU membership if needs be to achieve that end.

Quite a few politicians, unfortunately, are largely motivated by personal self-aggrandizement. Not many make this so embarrassingly obvious, though :twisted:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue 09 Jan, 2018 12:01 pm 
Online
Prime Minister

Joined: Tue 26 Aug, 2014 11:18 am
Posts: 9369
Has thanked: 18103 times
Been thanked: 16801 times


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue 09 Jan, 2018 12:02 pm 
Online
Prime Minister

Joined: Tue 26 Aug, 2014 11:18 am
Posts: 9369
Has thanked: 18103 times
Been thanked: 16801 times
Oh, well.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue 09 Jan, 2018 12:13 pm 
Online
Speaker of the House

Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 10:34 am
Posts: 2903
Has thanked: 815 times
Been thanked: 5171 times
As I mentioned above most predictions tend to be flawed and some people's are consistently so

There is no problem with that if they learn to show a bit of humility and be less strident in future guesses (sorry, predictions)

History will tell if Labour is consistent with the six tests. They are there and can be used as stated.

Whether you are convinced or not is one thing but to say they are a 'joke' and 'no-one takes them seriously' is typical bombast....and not backed up with a proven ability to be right with predictions


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue 09 Jan, 2018 12:24 pm 
Offline
Secretary of State

Joined: Wed 27 Aug, 2014 8:15 pm
Posts: 1322
Has thanked: 93 times
Been thanked: 2617 times
I am always wrong with my predictions, I know.

I agree with Paul that we can't go back to the situation before the referendum. I think it's likely that we will struggle desperately ever to re-engage fully with the sm/cu, and certainly ever to rejoin the EU, because the rest of the EU will be very wary of our ongoing commitment and because I think it's realistic politically to say we'd need to win a referendum to rejoin, on worse-for-us terms that we were members before, I can't imagine that ever happening.

I think Labour are consistently playing close to the government's case with what they say because I don't think the rest of the EU see these differences between form and content - between structures and outcomes. These are the four freedoms and this is the ECJ oversight and these things need to be in place if your future arrangements are to in any way match your earlier arrangements. I don't know or understand what Labour's ongoing plan is other than to get something better than the government.

I also - as an absolute arch hardcore remainer and deep disdainer of the leave campaign - have some sympathy with leave campaigners being told that we can leave the EU and then buy back into freedom of movement and so on which is what continuity - practical, functional continuity - in the single market and/or customs union would mean. . There is a certain insane and destructive purity and principle in leave means leave.

At the moment, though, I can't think of a british government behaving in a more ludicrous and absurd way as ours have in the leave negotiations but I don't see Labour pursuing this at anything like the right level of disdain. People should be up in arms - determined leavers should be up in arms about how badly they're doing, never mind remain campaigners who see every lie of the leave campaign getting called. Labour should be running this public opinion show. It's not happening.

_________________
my barking contribution


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue 09 Jan, 2018 12:25 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 8:26 pm
Posts: 6780
Has thanked: 677 times
Been thanked: 14994 times
PorFavor wrote:
Oh, well.


"An error has occurred. Please try again later".

Maybe our PM received a similar message this morning?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue 09 Jan, 2018 12:26 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 11:40 pm
Posts: 18224
Has thanked: 16178 times
Been thanked: 27503 times


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue 09 Jan, 2018 12:26 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 9:18 pm
Posts: 6677
Has thanked: 4095 times
Been thanked: 15495 times
Probably for the best given his performance in defending Toady yesterday. Doubt universities were that impressed.

Quote:
UK Prime Minister‏Verified account
@Number10gov
Follow Follow @Number10gov
More
Jo Johnson MP becomes Minister of State at the Department for Transport @transportgovuk and Minister for London #Reshuffle

_________________
FTN's supplier of tedious, pedantic education policy waffle; and Pedant-in-Chief generally.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue 09 Jan, 2018 12:31 pm 
Online
Chancellor

Joined: Thu 28 Aug, 2014 9:51 am
Posts: 1960
Has thanked: 4936 times
Been thanked: 4728 times
So both the ministers answering urgent questions in the Commons yesterday have gone.

_________________
One world, like it or not - John Martyn


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue 09 Jan, 2018 12:36 pm 
Online
Speaker of the House

Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 10:34 am
Posts: 2903
Has thanked: 815 times
Been thanked: 5171 times
adam wrote:
I am always wrong with my predictions, I know.

I agree with Paul that we can't go back to the situation before the referendum. I think it's likely that we will struggle desperately ever to re-engage fully with the sm/cu, and certainly ever to rejoin the EU, because the rest of the EU will be very wary of our ongoing commitment and because I think it's realistic politically to say we'd need to win a referendum to rejoin, on worse-for-us terms that we were members before, I can't imagine that ever happening.

I think Labour are consistently playing close to the government's case with what they say because I don't think the rest of the EU see these differences between form and content - between structures and outcomes. These are the four freedoms and this is the ECJ oversight and these things need to be in place if your future arrangements are to in any way match your earlier arrangements. I don't know or understand what Labour's ongoing plan is other than to get something better than the government.

I also - as an absolute arch hardcore remainer and deep disdainer of the leave campaign - have some sympathy with leave campaigners being told that we can leave the EU and then buy back into freedom of movement and so on which is what continuity - practical, functional continuity - in the single market and/or customs union would mean. . There is a certain insane and destructive purity and principle in leave means leave.

At the moment, though, I can't think of a british government behaving in a more ludicrous and absurd way as ours have in the leave negotiations but I don't see Labour pursuing this at anything like the right level of disdain. People should be up in arms - determined leavers should be up in arms about how badly they're doing, never mind remain campaigners who see every lie of the leave campaign getting called. Labour should be running this public opinion show. It's not happening.



That is fair enough Adam...agee with a lot and not so much with a bit

As to what the EU think - we have seen their response to what Labour says to them in private so they may understand more than you think

The four freedoms are not structures but mandatory rules that need to satisfy them that they are being met. The structures to implement the rules are significantly different from one country to another and so we could change the structure but still meet the desired outcome

As to disdain, I am happy with Labour not making everything about Brexit and I have explained why previously....arch remainders want more but some others are happy enough

Those who voted remain now have quite different approaches to what to do post referendum and so what makes someone happy will upset another


Last edited by howsillyofme1 on Tue 09 Jan, 2018 12:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue 09 Jan, 2018 12:39 pm 
Offline
First Secretary of State

Joined: Mon 16 Feb, 2015 1:22 pm
Posts: 3988
Has thanked: 150 times
Been thanked: 2261 times
https://www.prweek.com/article/1453993/ ... ign=buffer


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue 09 Jan, 2018 12:47 pm 
Offline
First Secretary of State

Joined: Mon 16 Feb, 2015 1:22 pm
Posts: 3988
Has thanked: 150 times
Been thanked: 2261 times
1. There is not going to be an election before Brexit takes place. So saying "what we need is a Labour government" is, politely, unhelpful.

2. The only way for Labour to oppose "Tory Brexit" with any chance of an impact was to try and build bridges with moderate Tories and seek to secure membership of the Customs Union and Single Market. Labour didn't do that because the leadership didn't want it. The central point of the Owen Smith leadership challenge was to try and change the party's approach to the EU. He was roundly defeated, as was expected.

3. It may be that, no thanks to Labour, Brexit founders on its own contradictions. So, the transition period, assuming it can be negotiated, looks like lasting until 2021, although we'll have left the EU. Perhaps that will not be over by the time of the next election, and so it could be fought on extending that? Again, however, that would require a change of leadership and that isn't going to happen so long as Corbyn's health holds.

4. Being opaque and slightly more Remain-y than the Tories has been a brilliant strategy for Labour in terms of votes. it is just a shame it is such a disaster for the UK in general, and the poorest in particular.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue 09 Jan, 2018 1:03 pm 
Online
Speaker of the House

Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 10:34 am
Posts: 2903
Has thanked: 815 times
Been thanked: 5171 times
SpinningHugo wrote:
1. There is not going to be an election before Brexit takes place. So saying "what we need is a Labour government" is, politely, unhelpful.

2. The only way for Labour to oppose "Tory Brexit" with any chance of an impact was to try and build bridges with moderate Tories and seek to secure membership of the Customs Union and Single Market. Labour didn't do that because the leadership didn't want it. The central point of the Owen Smith leadership challenge was to try and change the party's approach to the EU. He was roundly defeated, as was expected.

3. It may be that, no thanks to Labour, Brexit founders on its own contradictions. So, the transition period, assuming it can be negotiated, looks like lasting until 2021, although we'll have left the EU. Perhaps that will not be over by the time of the next election, and so it could be fought on extending that? Again, however, that would require a change of leadership and that isn't going to happen so long as Corbyn's health holds.

4. Being opaque and slightly more Remain-y than the Tories has been a brilliant strategy for Labour in terms of votes. it is just a shame it is such a disaster for the UK in general, and the poorest in particular.


1. You may consider it unhelpful but it happens to be the case....not helped of course by the gleeful undermining of the leadership by certain members of the PLP

2. I am not at all convinced by this as the Tory pro-Europeans have not shown very much inclination to oppose their party and they have had plenty of opportunities to do so. I do not think many of them see Brexit as importantly as having a Tory Government.

3. In your opinion - be nice for you to realise thast your opinion is not fact

4. The disaster for the UK, since 2010 has been a Tory Government - trying to link 'disaster' to the Labour Party is pretty disengenuous isn't it? In order to have 1. we needed to have 4. Unfortunately it didn't happen to be quite enough.....and would have helped if the Remainer party in Scotland hadn't lost so many seats to the Tories!

Only history will tell who was right and who was wrong in different situations - all we can do is have our best view on what we know. And admit that a lot of times that view is based on not a small amount of bias and perception


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue 09 Jan, 2018 1:32 pm 
Offline
Secretary of State

Joined: Wed 27 Aug, 2014 8:15 pm
Posts: 1322
Has thanked: 93 times
Been thanked: 2617 times
SpinningHugo wrote:
1. There is not going to be an election before Brexit takes place. So saying "what we need is a Labour government" is, politely, unhelpful.


I very much agree with the first part of this, and I think this makes the second part irrelevant rather than anything else.

SpinningHugo wrote:
2. The only way for Labour to oppose "Tory Brexit" with any chance of an impact was to try and build bridges with moderate Tories and seek to secure membership of the Customs Union and Single Market. Labour didn't do that because the leadership didn't want it. The central point of the Owen Smith leadership challenge was to try and change the party's approach to the EU. He was roundly defeated, as was expected.


Second point - I disgree, I think the central point was to seek to take Cameron's catastrophe and try to recast it as Corbyn's catastrophe to try to create and exploit an opportunity to take back the direction of the party. I think this has done a lot of damage to Labour, and set us off on the leave path minimising the conservative's responsibility for where we are.

First point - I can't see that would have gone too far - the point would have come where May would have made a question in parliament a point of confidence and any tory 'rebels' would back down. I know, this is what whips always say and I know I can be very wrong but this is still very much what i think - I won't believe anything else unless or until it happens.

SpinningHugo wrote:
3. It may be that, no thanks to Labour, Brexit founders on its own contradictions. So, the transition period, assuming it can be negotiated, looks like lasting until 2021, although we'll have left the EU. Perhaps that will not be over by the time of the next election, and so it could be fought on extending that? Again, however, that would require a change of leadership and that isn't going to happen so long as Corbyn's health holds.


I think anything post '21 will be picking up the pieces - I know anything could happen, but why would we get a deal on extending transition when it's just a road to nowhere and the rest of the EU would prefer certainty?

_________________
my barking contribution


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue 09 Jan, 2018 1:40 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 11:40 pm
Posts: 18224
Has thanked: 16178 times
Been thanked: 27503 times
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... s-changing


A visionary to save the Open University – or the man who will run it into the ground?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue 09 Jan, 2018 2:27 pm 
Online
Site Admin

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 6:27 pm
Posts: 5020
Has thanked: 1578 times
Been thanked: 8291 times
Quote:
You have to hand it to this Prime Minister: she’s given us the hat-trick of the worst reshuffle, the worst party conference speech and the worst manifesto in modern history.

George Osborne


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue 09 Jan, 2018 2:29 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 8:26 pm
Posts: 6780
Has thanked: 677 times
Been thanked: 14994 times
A very bitter man of course, but its not easy to disagree with that!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue 09 Jan, 2018 2:30 pm 
Online
Prime Minister

Joined: Tue 26 Aug, 2014 11:18 am
Posts: 9369
Has thanked: 18103 times
Been thanked: 16801 times
Quote:
David Davis’s claim in a leaked letter to the prime minister that the EU is discriminating against the UK and damaging its economic interests by preparing for a no-deal scenario in March 2019 has been met with flat denials and accusations of hypocrisy in Brussels, my colleague Daniel Boffey reports.(Politics Live, Guardian)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue 09 Jan, 2018 2:33 pm 
Online
Site Admin

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 6:27 pm
Posts: 5020
Has thanked: 1578 times
Been thanked: 8291 times
PorFavor wrote:
Quote:
David Davis’s claim in a leaked letter to the prime minister that the EU is discriminating against the UK and damaging its economic interests by preparing for a no-deal scenario in March 2019 has been met with flat denials and accusations of hypocrisy in Brussels, my colleague Daniel Boffey reports.(Politics Live, Guardian)

What happened to the Minister for No-Deal anyway?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue 09 Jan, 2018 2:34 pm 
Online
Site Admin

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 6:27 pm
Posts: 5020
Has thanked: 1578 times
Been thanked: 8291 times
Quote:
No10 confirm there will not be a No Brexit Deal minister in Cabinet and insist no plans ever existed for one.

Perhaps they meant that lots of ministers would walk into Number 10 and say "no deal" :twisted:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue 09 Jan, 2018 2:36 pm 
Online
Site Admin

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 6:27 pm
Posts: 5020
Has thanked: 1578 times
Been thanked: 8291 times
PTO


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 155 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], frightful_oik, frog222, gilsey, howsillyofme1, PaulfromYorkshire, PorFavor, Willow904 and 34 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group