Saturday 13th and Sunday 14th January 2018

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tinyclanger2
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Re: Saturday 13th and Sunday 14th January 2018

Post by tinyclanger2 »

HindleA wrote:"To Germany?".I thought only one of us thought we could walk on water?
Well actually I was meaning once located in Germany (specifically the Baltic Coast).
But Stena Lines do offer the opportunity to effectively walk on water albeit courtesy of its decks.
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howsillyofme1
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Re: Saturday 13th and Sunday 14th January 2018

Post by howsillyofme1 »

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
He then made sure we were reminded that the Tories are in charge and Labour will respond when they present their proposals, something such a divided party is clearly a long way from doing.
Hardly "government in waiting", is it?

Then again, I'd be very happy for them to drop that talk, looks too presumptious.
Starmer has set out the outcomes he wants from any negotiations. That is much as he can do now

How can he respond to how Labour would react when he does not know what will be presented to them.......they have to be reactive in this surely

What do you expect him to say otherwise?

I am bewildered that the expectation is for Labour to be so precise on what they want to do....but I have seen no grilling of the party that are actually negotiating....and also the complete contradiction in their position

It is the Tories that have prodiuced 'red lines' - not Labour who are doing their best not to rule anything out despite being told they need to do so...now!

I will repeat a question from yesterday....'why do Labour have to set out the details of their position now?' we have been told this same thing since June 23rd 2016 and I would venture to say the people calling for it have not been shown they were right - but they never stop saying it.....
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tinyclanger2
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Re: Saturday 13th and Sunday 14th January 2018

Post by tinyclanger2 »

Oh god. Have started a new page by mistake.
Don't like to think of PF endlessly pressing refresh.
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SpinningHugo
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Re: Saturday 13th and Sunday 14th January 2018

Post by SpinningHugo »

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
He then made sure we were reminded that the Tories are in charge and Labour will respond when they present their proposals, something such a divided party is clearly a long way from doing.
Hardly "government in waiting", is it?

Then again, I'd be very happy for them to drop that talk, looks too presumptious.

To be fair it is no worse than the current government. It is the identical policy save for "they're in charge so we don't have to say."

I do think professional training as a lawyer should result in higher standards. I don't think it is a coincidence that such a hig proportion of the Tory 'rebels (such as they are) are lawyers.
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Re: Saturday 13th and Sunday 14th January 2018

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

Leaving aside Brexit, which we've done before, I think "government in waiting" is a hubristic gift to the actual government.
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Re: Saturday 13th and Sunday 14th January 2018

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

SpinningHugo wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
He then made sure we were reminded that the Tories are in charge and Labour will respond when they present their proposals, something such a divided party is clearly a long way from doing.
Hardly "government in waiting", is it?

Then again, I'd be very happy for them to drop that talk, looks too presumptious.

To be fair it is no worse than the current government. It is the identical policy save for "they're in charge so we don't have to say."

I do think professional training as a lawyer should result in higher standards. I don't think it is a coincidence that such a hig proportion of the Tory 'rebels (such as they are) are lawyers.
Bill Cash is a lawyer!

A friend of mine studying Law used to say the stuff you do. He then changed courses.
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Re: Saturday 13th and Sunday 14th January 2018

Post by howsillyofme1 »

Tubby Isaacs wrote:Leaving aside Brexit, which we've done before, I think "government in waiting" is a hubristic gift to the actual government.

Last year I remember being told by pretty much everyone that Labour was not behaving like 'a Government in waiting'....and that Corbyn was awful because Labour were going to be reduced to a rump

Now they are being hubristic
Last edited by howsillyofme1 on Sun 14 Jan, 2018 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Saturday 13th and Sunday 14th January 2018

Post by howsillyofme1 »

SpinningHugo wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
He then made sure we were reminded that the Tories are in charge and Labour will respond when they present their proposals, something such a divided party is clearly a long way from doing.
Hardly "government in waiting", is it?

Then again, I'd be very happy for them to drop that talk, looks too presumptious.

To be fair it is no worse than the current government. It is the identical policy save for "they're in charge so we don't have to say."

I do think professional training as a lawyer should result in higher standards. I don't think it is a coincidence that such a hig proportion of the Tory 'rebels (such as they are) are lawyers.
'higher standards'


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Re: Saturday 13th and Sunday 14th January 2018

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T3 on water.jpg
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Re: Saturday 13th and Sunday 14th January 2018

Post by HindleA »

Multiple Government u-turns and support for opposition attempts at legislation/amendments,in the case of Sherriff the first to a budget by a backbencher ever.
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Re: Saturday 13th and Sunday 14th January 2018

Post by SpinningHugo »

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
He then made sure we were reminded that the Tories are in charge and Labour will respond when they present their proposals, something such a divided party is clearly a long way from doing.
Hardly "government in waiting", is it?

Then again, I'd be very happy for them to drop that talk, looks too pres

Bill Cash is a lawyer!

A friend of mine studying Law used to say the stuff you do. He then changed courses.

Richard Burgon is too. It is only a trend, not a guarantee.
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Re: Saturday 13th and Sunday 14th January 2018

Post by HindleA »

Is systematic targeted hypocritical nastiness part of this higher standard?
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Re: Saturday 13th and Sunday 14th January 2018

Post by Willow904 »

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
He then made sure we were reminded that the Tories are in charge and Labour will respond when they present their proposals, something such a divided party is clearly a long way from doing.
Hardly "government in waiting", is it?

Then again, I'd be very happy for them to drop that talk, looks too presumptious.
I don't think it hurts to keep reminding people who is in charge of this mess. And you can't oppose the government's position if you don't know what it is and that's where we seem to be right now.

I'm not especially against Starmer's no labels thing, but Guru-Murthy was astute to ask about freedom of movement. Labour say they want to maintain current benefits but much of those benefits actually derive from freedom of movement. And everyone has to follow the same rules in order for freedom of movement to work. That's just economic fact. Corbyn is clearly uncomfortable with some of those rules, but the reality is that the rules that govern the kind of international trade we would be pursuing outside the single market won't be any more comfortable. I assume he gets that. Unfortunately the UK has placed itself in a position where it no longer has much influence over the rules. That's the reality of going solo in a world where everyone else is increasingly choosing to team up.

Edited to correct name. Was multi-tasking at the time and missed predictive text change. Thanks to SH for spot.
Last edited by Willow904 on Sun 14 Jan, 2018 6:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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howsillyofme1
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Re: Saturday 13th and Sunday 14th January 2018

Post by howsillyofme1 »

I have noticed that Hugo never seems to engage with posts that disagree with his view of the world and answer any questions - just insult and make some very opinionated comments

I have asked a few based on his rather strident and definite views - and will put them together

'what is the definition of the Single Market/Custom's Union you use when you say it - what treaty should I use to determine the scope?'

'you are a proponent of the SM/CU solution - what would the political ramifications of that be if we we outside the EU?'

'if you want to stay in the EU then what tactic would you use to enable us to reverse Brexit?'

I don't want to hear how bad Labour are, or how incompetent you think individuals are - I want to see your own answers to these
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Re: Saturday 13th and Sunday 14th January 2018

Post by HindleA »

@tc2 genius
Tubby Isaacs
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Re: Saturday 13th and Sunday 14th January 2018

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

howsillyofme1 wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:Leaving aside Brexit, which we've done before, I think "government in waiting" is a hubristic gift to the actual government.

Last year I remember being told by pretty much everyone that Labour was not behaving like 'a Government in waiting'....and that Corbyn was awful because Labour were going to be reduced to a rump

Now they are being hubristic
I don't think it's something you say when level in the polls and without clear policies on the biggest issue.

Lots of people here have made a good case that wait and see is the right policy on Brexit. John Smith and Tony Blair as opposition leaders did that, and far more widely than Corbyn. But that particular soundbite jars with me.
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Re: Saturday 13th and Sunday 14th January 2018

Post by SpinningHugo »

Willow904 wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
He then made sure we were reminded that the Tories are in charge and Labour will respond when they present their proposals, something such a divided party is clearly a long way from doing.
Hardly "government in waiting", is it?

Then again, I'd be very happy for them to drop that talk, looks too presumptious.
I don't think it hurts to keep reminding people who is in charge of this mess. And you can't oppose the government's position if you don't know what it is and that's where we seem to be right now.

I'm not especially against Starmer's no labels thing, but Guru-Murphy was astute to ask about freedom of movement. Labour say they want to maintain current benefits but much of those benefits actually derive from freedom of movement. And everyone has to follow the same rules in order for freedom of movement to work. That's just economic fact. Corbyn is clearly uncomfortable with some of those rules, but the reality is that the rules that govern the kind of international trade we would be pursuing outside the single market won't be any more comfortable. I assume he gets that. Unfortunately the UK has placed itself in a position where it no longer has much influence over the rules. That's the reality of going solo in a world where everyone else is increasingly choosing to team up.

NB Guru-Murthy. He isn't Irish.
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Re: Saturday 13th and Sunday 14th January 2018

Post by howsillyofme1 »

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:Leaving aside Brexit, which we've done before, I think "government in waiting" is a hubristic gift to the actual government.

Last year I remember being told by pretty much everyone that Labour was not behaving like 'a Government in waiting'....and that Corbyn was awful because Labour were going to be reduced to a rump

Now they are being hubristic
I don't think it's something you say when level in the polls and without clear policies on the biggest issue.

Lots of people here have made a good case that wait and see is the right policy on Brexit. John Smith and Tony Blair as opposition leaders did that, and far more widely than Corbyn. But that particular soundbite jars with me.
Just like 'the Single Market' does for me - I guess we just have to live with it

also, are the polls right? Do we really base our views on polls that have not been the most accurate predictors of results - the polls are all based on weightings and I am still not convinced the polling companies really know what the voting intentions are....and to be fair they are only tested every 5 years
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Re: Saturday 13th and Sunday 14th January 2018

Post by tinyclanger2 »

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2018/j ... animations" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I will be going to see this in due course:
It might be set in the stone age but the latest claymation epic from Wallace and Gromit creators Aardman touches on two of the timeliest issues of the coming year. First, the 2018 World Cup: this is squarely a story about football, and therefore likely to find a global audience even if its sense of humour remains lovably, colloquially English. Second, this is a story concerned with Britain’s sense of history and identity. By accident or design, Aardman have made a Brexit movie!
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AnatolyKasparov
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Re: Saturday 13th and Sunday 14th January 2018

Post by AnatolyKasparov »

Obviously I don't hold any brief for UKIP, but is one alone in thinking this latest leadership "scandal" smells strongly of a set-up?
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Re: Saturday 13th and Sunday 14th January 2018

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For AK et al:
Early Man focuses on an insular, small-minded tribe who live in a giant crater, cut off from the outside world (the prologue identifies their location as “near Manchester”).
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Re: Saturday 13th and Sunday 14th January 2018

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

Willow904 wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
He then made sure we were reminded that the Tories are in charge and Labour will respond when they present their proposals, something such a divided party is clearly a long way from doing.
Hardly "government in waiting", is it?

Then again, I'd be very happy for them to drop that talk, looks too presumptious.
I don't think it hurts to keep reminding people who is in charge of this mess. And you can't oppose the government's position if you don't know what it is and that's where we seem to be right now.

I'm not especially against Starmer's no labels thing, but Guru-Murphy was astute to ask about freedom of movement. Labour say they want to maintain current benefits but much of those benefits actually derive from freedom of movement. And everyone has to follow the same rules in order for freedom of movement to work. That's just economic fact. Corbyn is clearly uncomfortable with some of those rules, but the reality is that the rules that govern the kind of international trade we would be pursuing outside the single market won't be any more comfortable. I assume he gets that. Unfortunately the UK has placed itself in a position where it no longer has much influence over the rules. That's the reality of going solo in a world where everyone else is increasingly choosing to team up.
On the issue, I think it's a "Labour" problem rather than a "Corbyn" one. He didn't go into politics to talk about EU integration, but maybe his "sceptical" background is an asset, I don't know. Maybe Starmer looks too much like a "smooth lawyer" to some people.

If what they mean is "You caused the mess, you sort it out", say that. It isn't "government in waiting".

In the 90s, Blair wasn't particularly clear on his Single Currency policy, but what he could make stick was "Stop banging on about Europe". That card isn't available now. The government has to bang on about Europe.
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Re: Saturday 13th and Sunday 14th January 2018

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https://www.outdooractive.com/en/hikes/ ... n/1441507/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Saturday 13th and Sunday 14th January 2018

Post by citizenJA »

tinyclanger2 wrote:Walking guides to Germany. Where do you get 'em?
(have 'googled' - in the same way that my father used to 'hoover' - with little or no success)
In Germany
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Re: Saturday 13th and Sunday 14th January 2018

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LET'S FACE IT I'M JUST 'KIN' SEETHIN'
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Re: Saturday 13th and Sunday 14th January 2018

Post by citizenJA »

Good-evening
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Re: Saturday 13th and Sunday 14th January 2018

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

I expect the polling companies have updated methods. Like in 1992, there was an underlying problem with their methodology that underrated one side, plus a likely lately swing to them.

Whatever, the underlying trends they show should be realistic. Wherever they are, the polls are stalled.

I'm not saying backing freedom of movement would open up a lead, it would more likely go the other way. But I think it'll be proved right. They really need to avoid relying on being seen as better negotiators than the Tories. Because of the familiar advantages the Tories have, the Tories have a good chance of keeping their lead on that.
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Re: Saturday 13th and Sunday 14th January 2018

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
He then made sure we were reminded that the Tories are in charge and Labour will respond when they present their proposals, something such a divided party is clearly a long way from doing.
Hardly "government in waiting", is it?

Then again, I'd be very happy for them to drop that talk, looks too presumptious.
Yes I agree.

There was perhaps a certain sense in it immediately after the better than expected GE performance, but now, as I said the other day, they are making a pretty decent fist of holding the government to account and, for me, should just keep that pressure up.

I think the government in waiting rhetoric will naturally disappear anyway as the party focuses what I reckon promises to be one of the most interesting and unpredictable set of May local elections in my lifetime!
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Re: Saturday 13th and Sunday 14th January 2018

Post by howsillyofme1 »

Tubby Isaacs wrote:I expect the polling companies have updated methods. Like in 1992, there was an underlying problem with their methodology that underrated one side, plus a likely lately swing to them.

Whatever, the underlying trends they show should be realistic. Wherever they are, the polls are stalled.

I'm not saying backing freedom of movement would open up a lead, it would more likely go the other way. But I think it'll be proved right. They really need to avoid relying on being seen as better negotiators than the Tories. Because of the familiar advantages the Tories have, the Tories have a good chance of keeping their lead on that.

I have had a look at some of the methodologies and am not at all convinced that they have learnt the lessons - they seem to have treated the youth vote as a one off - the raw data prior to the turnout weighting is usually showing a 3-4% Labour lead

They are in the fortunate position of being quoted as true but never being rested - how do we know they are right? I admit I am not trusting of something that when tested is shown to be wrong - is adjusted a bit but then it is not tested again for another 5 years

You base your opinions on what the polls say if you want - I choose to dismiss them as pretty much useless as the margin of error will be so high to make then useless

Remember the embarrassment of watching Kellner trying to explain away the difference between the last polls and the Exit Poll as being down to postal votes!

The polling companies can be a lot more precise (see the YouGov Nowcast) but it is very expensive to carry out such polling and they don't tend to do it between elections
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Re: Saturday 13th and Sunday 14th January 2018

Post by AnatolyKasparov »

There is still a possibility that some pollsters are getting it somewhat wrong regarding their sampling in particular.

(quite a few often seem older voter heavy, and as things stand that will benefit the Tories)
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Re: Saturday 13th and Sunday 14th January 2018

Post by PorFavor »

Carillion: Banks call for government help (BBC News website)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42680585
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Re: Saturday 13th and Sunday 14th January 2018

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ard-border" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Owen Smith, the shadow Northern Ireland secretary, has waded into the row about Labour’s Brexit stance, warning the return of border posts in Northern Ireland will be unavoidable without the UK “effectively retaining membership of the single market and the customs union”.
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Re: Saturday 13th and Sunday 14th January 2018

Post by citizenJA »

PorFavor wrote:
Carillion: Banks call for government help (BBC News website)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42680585
The construction firm owes £900m to RBS, Barclays, HSBC, Lloyds and Santander.
The banks may be able to show Carillion more leniency if the government is able to do its part, according to sources.
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Re: Saturday 13th and Sunday 14th January 2018

Post by howsillyofme1 »

Tubby Isaacs wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ard-border
Owen Smith, the shadow Northern Ireland secretary, has waded into the row about Labour’s Brexit stance, warning the return of border posts in Northern Ireland will be unavoidable without the UK “effectively retaining membership of the single market and the customs union”.
I don't think that many on the Labour side would accept a return to a hard border in Ireland.......I happen to think that there are no solutions apart from the status quo that will give us that

However, I still maintain that it is politically difficult to maintain that position outside the EU.......can you see a deal which leaves us subject to all the EU requirements but outside the rule making bodies acceptable to the electorate? That really is handing over sovereignty - we always argue that the EU is democratic because there is the Parliament and the Council of Ministers - what would you feel if you were outside these bodies but still subject to all the current and future rules?
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Re: Saturday 13th and Sunday 14th January 2018

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

The EU stuck the Irish border in the first stage of talks (even though it doesn't really belong there) to nudge us towards SM/CU. It's politically tough to make the mainland bother about Ireland, but we've got to bite the bullet sooner or later. (edit- that wasn't intentional)

I don't know If Smith's got licence to "speak out". He may have. This could be the first part of the plan.
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Re: Saturday 13th and Sunday 14th January 2018

Post by AnatolyKasparov »

The key word in Smith's quoted comment may be "effectively", and there is a good chance Corbyn may agree.
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Re: Saturday 13th and Sunday 14th January 2018

Post by PorFavor »

Carillion crisis: hedge funds rake in tens of millions

Short-sellers quietly targeted company as far back as 2015 with bets reaching peak before first profit warning in July 2017

Carillion’s popularity with short-sellers suggests hedge funds were convinced the company was in trouble long before suspicions reached politicians and the public.

The biggest winner from July’s share price crash was hedge fund Marshall Wace, whose co-founder Sir Ian Marshall was a major backer of the leave campaign in the Brexit referendum.

Another institution that took out big bets on Carillion’s downfall is BlackRock, the US-based investment institution that hired former chancellor George Osborne as an adviser last year, on a £650,000 salary.(Guardian - my emphasis)
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... f-millions
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Re: Saturday 13th and Sunday 14th January 2018

Post by PorFavor »

Pressure on UKIP leader over girlfriend's Meghan Markle's texts

UKIP leader Henry Bolton is under pressure to resign after his girlfriend was suspended by the party for apparently making racist remarks about Meghan Markle. (BBC News website)
What - another one? (As Brenda from Bristol might say.)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42682612
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Re: Saturday 13th and Sunday 14th January 2018

Post by howsillyofme1 »

why does the headline mention Jeremy Corbyn?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Saturday 13th and Sunday 14th January 2018

Post by SpinningHugo »

AnatolyKasparov wrote:The key word in Smith's quoted comment may be "effectively", and there is a good chance Corbyn may agree.

I don't agree as Corbyn seems to be going out of his way to deny this as an option. Stupidity? Because he is a longstanding Lexiteer? I prefer the latter explanation.

One thing we do know for sure: Corbyn and Smith do not agree about the Brexit strategy. That was why we had the contest.
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Re: Saturday 13th and Sunday 14th January 2018

Post by tinybgoat »

howsillyofme1 wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ard-border
Owen Smith, the shadow Northern Ireland secretary, has waded into the row about Labour’s Brexit stance, warning the return of border posts in Northern Ireland will be unavoidable without the UK “effectively retaining membership of the single market and the customs union”.
I don't think that many on the Labour side would accept a return to a hard border in Ireland.......I happen to think that there are no solutions apart from the status quo that will give us that

However, I still maintain that it is politically difficult to maintain that position outside the EU.......can you see a deal which leaves us subject to all the EU requirements but outside the rule making bodies acceptable to the electorate? That really is handing over sovereignty - we always argue that the EU is democratic because there is the Parliament and the Council of Ministers - what would you feel if you were outside these bodies but still subject to all the current and future rules?
Something like Efta might be acceptable to leavers if sold as a short term measure, i.e. a stepping stone to full independence, and to some remainers as keeping close to eu.
(For reasons you've already given) Still seems worse option than staying in eu, though.
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Re: Saturday 13th and Sunday 14th January 2018

Post by citizenJA »

PorFavor wrote:
Carillion crisis: hedge funds rake in tens of millions
---
Another institution that took out big bets on Carillion’s downfall is BlackRock, the US-based investment institution that hired former chancellor George Osborne as an adviser last year, on a £650,000 salary.(Guardian - my emphasis)
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... f-millions
(cJA edit)

Ah, of course.
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Re: Saturday 13th and Sunday 14th January 2018

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

There's also the "public opinion not ready" explanation. I don't at all rule that out. But you're going to have MPs and Shadow Cabinet members who'll want to make more of the running. If I were Labour in Scotland, I'd be very worried about the SNP getting most of those 2017 seats back. The Tories might be able to hold on to a couple, through their rural strength and strong unionist brand.

I don't know what "effectively the same as the Single Market" would look like really. But I agree with Anatoly that it's significant because it doesn't put too much distance between Smith and Corbyn.
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Re: Saturday 13th and Sunday 14th January 2018

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

tinybgoat wrote: Something like Efta might be acceptable to leavers if sold as a short term measure, i.e. a stepping stone to full independence, and to some remainers as keeping close to eu.
(For reasons you've already given) Still seems worse option than staying in eu, though.
It is worse, but in terms of GDP lost, I think it's nearer 1% than 4%. That's a heck of a lot of discretionary spending at stake. I think a promise to go for that and promise not to apply for EU membership could appeal to a lot of voters. Nor should it repel too many.
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Re: Saturday 13th and Sunday 14th January 2018

Post by AnatolyKasparov »

Not convinced about the SNP, think they are in slow but steady long term decline. Further gains for SLab come the next GE are a lot more likely than losses IMO.
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Re: Saturday 13th and Sunday 14th January 2018

Post by citizenJA »

There's confusion about who's responsible for the organisation providing public services below the line on the Carillion story.
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Re: Saturday 13th and Sunday 14th January 2018

Post by Willow904 »

howsillyofme1 wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ard-border
Owen Smith, the shadow Northern Ireland secretary, has waded into the row about Labour’s Brexit stance, warning the return of border posts in Northern Ireland will be unavoidable without the UK “effectively retaining membership of the single market and the customs union”.
I don't think that many on the Labour side would accept a return to a hard border in Ireland.......I happen to think that there are no solutions apart from the status quo that will give us that

However, I still maintain that it is politically difficult to maintain that position outside the EU.......can you see a deal which leaves us subject to all the EU requirements but outside the rule making bodies acceptable to the electorate? That really is handing over sovereignty - we always argue that the EU is democratic because there is the Parliament and the Council of Ministers - what would you feel if you were outside these bodies but still subject to all the current and future rules?
Any trade deal results in rules that have to be followed, I don't see the single market as so different, except it is probably easier to withdraw from than a trade deal if at any point it is no longer in the country's best interests. Yes, it has more rules than a trade deal, but they're rules we're already following and will have to follow in any arrangement that allows for frictionless trade with the EU. Why would protecting jobs and the economy be politically difficult? A hard border in Ireland is what is politically difficult. Obviously remaining in the EU is the best option, but the Tories have decided to take us out of the EU for numpty little Englander reasons of their own so we only have bad options left.
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Re: Saturday 13th and Sunday 14th January 2018

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Not convinced about the SNP, think they are in slow but steady long term decline. Further gains for SLab come the next GE are a lot more likely than losses IMO.
The SNP losses to Labour were pretty marginal. A tremendous achievement for Labour to get them, of course. If the SNP parked indyref2 properly in their manifesto, I think they'd do well.
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Re: Saturday 13th and Sunday 14th January 2018

Post by AnatolyKasparov »

Nah, that's not a big vote winner for the forseeable.
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Re: Saturday 13th and Sunday 14th January 2018

Post by PorFavor »

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