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PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 8:52 am 
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Good morfternoon.

@frog222

I thought you were doing this bit. Oh well, if you want something doing . . .


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PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 8:55 am 
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Morning.


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PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 9:09 am 
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Good morning

Read the first line of this........

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... rexit-move

I find this assumption that because someone voted Remain they also want us to have a relationship that gives us all the access rights as now but also commits us to whatever the EU decide without having a say - this assumption is as wrong as the Leave voters all wanting a 'no-deal' scenario

Labour officially committing to SM/CU in perpetuity is not something that can be done lightly and needs much thought and consultation - it would also need us to have a negotiation with the EU - which Labour are not having

Simplifying there are two options

CU/SM and no say in the rules
CU/SM and a say in the rules - I believe this is called membership of the EU and I cannot see us getting agreement on this with the EU from outside

The assumption from some people is this is an easy decision to make and can be just thrown out there - the consequences of it may not go down as well as they think though - just as people who supported Leave are seeing the hidden implications

I despair sometimes - from front page of Guardian on-line!

If you want CU/SM then it has to be as a member of EU or a clear interim for going back in. Standalone I predict it wouldn't be possible to sustain


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PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 9:23 am 
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and just to add to above post - I think Starmer (and probably/possible the leadership) know that the only way to get their desired outcome is CU/SM but he understands better than some like Streeting what the implications are and is edging towards it rather then full pelt

The transition is quite clearly stated as CU/SM now which is good - what happens after needs to be really well thougt through and communicated

I am placing my confidence in him on this - whether I am right or wrong on history will tell, but he is cleverer than me and also understands the situation much better than I do


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PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 9:29 am 
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Hsom --9.23 -- I'm not sure Starmer is much cleverer etc than you . Be afraid :-)


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PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 9:43 am 
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frog222 wrote:
Hsom --9.23 -- I'm not sure Starmer is much cleverer etc than you . Be afraid :-)


I am sure he is but even by some miracle he isn't then the second point stays and is very important. He knows more than we do about what is feasible and what isn't as he has access tot eh EU and their position. He is not negotiating but he will have an idea of the art of the possible

It may be there is an SM/CU solution outside the EU that works but I haven't seen it yet so, as a Remain voter, I would tell Streeting he doesn't speak for me!

I read somewhere that Starmer is actually being very legally pedantic in what he says - so whe he say we are leaving THE SM and THE CU he is technically correct because they are parts of the EU Internal Market which is only for EU members........this is fence sitting extraordinaire.....

I see a lot of people coming out and saying Labour MUST come and out and STATE their position now - what is special about now?

It seems nothing much is happening so why would Labour give themselves up to the Tories and their media friends like that?

Ever since the referendum we heard the same thing, the election was going to be a disaster because of it - but those people, with hindsight were wrong.

People come on and say 'Labour will lose my vote because they are not Remain enough' and I ask - when exactly are they going to lose your vote? I don't see any elections happening until May, and they are local ones.


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PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 10:13 am 
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HSOM "" Ever since the referendum we heard the same thing, the election was going to be a disaster because of it""

The Fear Campaign exaggerated some things greatly, but most of their error was in the time-scale of the negative effects ?


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PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 10:18 am 
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frog222 wrote:
HSOM "" Ever since the referendum we heard the same thing, the election was going to be a disaster because of it""

The Fear Campaign exaggerated some things greatly, but most of their error was in the time-scale of the negative effects ?



I realise it didn't make sense

My point was supposed to have been that Labour had to make their position absolutely clearly known on Brexit or it would be an electoral disaster

On your point - you are right and I always see Brexit as a chronic rather than an acute problem. The acute problem is current Tory policies.....Brexit didn't force them to destroy the NHS


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PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 10:26 am 
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https://www.ft.com/content/a2553db2-f6b ... 65a6ce1a00

Fire, fury and the real trouble with Trump

The discord revealed in Michael Wolff’s exposé is all too plausible. Yet behind it is a story that should worry us much more

I’m not copying the article, but it’s worth registering for the free read .

Books recommended are David Frum’s Trumpocracy and How Democracies Die by Levitsky and Ziblatt

Who wrote " It can't happen here ?"


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PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 10:35 am 
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howsillyofme1 wrote:
Good morning

Read the first line of this........

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... rexit-move

I find this assumption that because someone voted Remain they also want us to have a relationship that gives us all the access rights as now but also commits us to whatever the EU decide without having a say - this assumption is as wrong as the Leave voters all wanting a 'no-deal' scenario

Labour officially committing to SM/CU in perpetuity is not something that can be done lightly and needs much thought and consultation - it would also need us to have a negotiation with the EU - which Labour are not having

Simplifying there are two options

CU/SM and no say in the rules
CU/SM and a say in the rules - I believe this is called membership of the EU and I cannot see us getting agreement on this with the EU from outside

The assumption from some people is this is an easy decision to make and can be just thrown out there - the consequences of it may not go down as well as they think though - just as people who supported Leave are seeing the hidden implications

I despair sometimes - from front page of Guardian on-line!

If you want CU/SM then it has to be as a member of EU or a clear interim for going back in. Standalone I predict it wouldn't be possible to sustain

See also this from Matthew Parris, presenting it as a win for Remain. We're all losers, of course.
https://twitter.com/emcmillanscott/stat ... 8952359936

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PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 10:35 am 
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https://amp.theguardian.com/money/2018/ ... ssion=true



Rogue landlords making millions out of housing benefits


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PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 10:38 am 
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https://www.theguardian.com/money/2018/ ... rs-charges



Ground rent: ‘We feel like prisoners in our own home’
High charges have left young homebuyers trapped – and the John Lewis pension fund has been accused of playing a role


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PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 10:39 am 
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https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... es-aged-80


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42671503


Last edited by HindleA on Sat 13 Jan, 2018 10:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 10:40 am 
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howsillyofme1 wrote:
The acute problem is current Tory policies.....Brexit didn't force them to destroy the NHS

Brexit won't force any govt to destroy the NHS afterwards, either, and I'm getting sick of seeing remainers say it will as if that's a clinching argument, it's Project Fear all over again and it didn't work very well last time.

Brexit will be very bad for workforce management and medical science collaboration, but funding will still be a political decision. The NHS can be be mitigation for Brexit.

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PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 10:43 am 
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gilsey wrote:
We're all losers, of course.


This, lots.

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Most things are never meant.
This won’t be, most likely; but greeds
And garbage are too thick-strewn
To be swept up now, or invent
Excuses that make them all needs.
I just think it will happen, soon.


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PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 10:55 am 
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adam wrote:
gilsey wrote:
We're all losers, of course.


This, lots.


I agree


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PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 11:01 am 
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https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... are_btn_tw
"Referendum II is coming. Farage just can’t bear being a Brexit misfit" Marina Hyde
Quote:
As mentioned before , there is a lot of the seethingly bitchy “resting” actor about Farage (and in various other wingnut old hams who find themselves currently between jobs – your Katie Hopkinses, your Milo s). Don’t get me wrong – Nigel’s been a massive hit at the Brexit conventions. There’s always a big queue for him to sign
Breaking Point posters and pose for fan selfies next to the mannequin of the V-signing Bob Geldof . But it’s like there’s something … missing?

Quote:
...No surprise that, when asked for a comment on a second referendum, one EU diplomat told the Telegraph’s Brussels correspondent: “Do what the fuck you want but stop dicking around.”


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PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 11:03 am 
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gilsey wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
The acute problem is current Tory policies.....Brexit didn't force them to destroy the NHS

Brexit won't force any govt to destroy the NHS afterwards, either, and I'm getting sick of seeing remainers say it will as if that's a clinching argument, it's Project Fear all over again and it didn't work very well last time.

Brexit will be very bad for workforce management and medical science collaboration, but funding will still be a political decision. The NHS can be be mitigation for Brexit.


The ones who irk me are those who go on about "Brexit making austerity worse" when they didn't give a monkey's about austerity before June 23 2016.

(if this was a case of that day genuinely opening their minds as to why Brexit happened, it would be a different matter - but most of the time, its not)


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PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 11:35 am 
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Quote:
Trade credit insurers pull cover as Carillion "hangs by a thread"

Euler Hermes and other trade credit insurers have stopped writing new coverage for suppliers to embattled contractor Carillion, sending a signal the company is at risk of collapse, according to reports.

Tokio Marine HCC and MGA Nexus also said they would not insure deliveries to the firm, Insurance Insider reported. Trade credit insurance protects firms against the risk of a customer going insolvent.

Yesterday, Carillion dismissed reports lenders had rejected a critical restructuring plan.
(City A.M.)


http://www.cityam.com/278713/trade-credit-insurers-pull-cover-carillion-hangs-thread



Edited - brackets


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PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 11:41 am 
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Quote:
Hammond: EU leaders 'paranoid' that other nations will leave after Brexit

Chancellor tells Die Welt newspaper that EU leaders are fixated on punishing Britain, rather than looking ahead to building post-Brexit trade (Guardian)


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/13/hammond-eu-leaders-paranoid-that-other-nations-will-leave-after-brexit


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PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 12:04 pm 
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Quote:
Trump supporters demand arrest of London Mayor Sadiq Khan

It follows a comment from Sadiq Khan, saying Mr Trump realises he is "not welcome" in London after a planned visit was cancelled.

Supporters of US President Donald Trump have disrupted a speech by Sadiq Khan and called for the London Mayor to be arrested.

Mr Khan was about to start speaking to the Fabian Society in London when he was disrupted by protesters from a group called the White Pendragons who shouted pro-Trump and pro-Brexit slogans.

The Mayor sat down and flicked through a newspaper while police escorted the demonstrators away. (Sky News)


https://news.sky.com/story/trump-supporters-demand-london-mayor-sadiq-khan-arrest-11205566


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PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 12:05 pm 
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I like that last bit tbh.


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PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 12:07 pm 
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PorFavor wrote:
Quote:
Hammond: EU leaders 'paranoid' that other nations will leave after Brexit

Chancellor tells Die Welt newspaper that EU leaders are fixated on punishing Britain, rather than looking ahead to building post-Brexit trade (Guardian)


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/13/hammond-eu-leaders-paranoid-that-other-nations-will-leave-after-brexit

Quote:
I can understand that paranoia. But imagine you are running a successful, thriving club. If one member leaves, you don’t immediately panic that all the other members might leave, but are confident they will want to remain.

You'd probably ask them why they're 'leaving a successful thriving club' and point out that the future cost of accessing the club's facilities would be higher, and,oh hang on ....


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PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 12:11 pm 
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
I like that last bit tbh.


I was a bit disappointed that, in the photo', Sadiq Khan wasn't in his customary "popinjay" garb. (Boris Johnson appears not to even know what the word means. Prat.)


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PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 12:35 pm 
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frog222 wrote:
https://www.ft.com/content/a2553db2-f6bf-11e7-88f7-5465a6ce1a00

Fire, fury and the real trouble with Trump

The discord revealed in Michael Wolff’s exposé is all too plausible. Yet behind it is a story that should worry us much more

I’m not copying the article, but it’s worth registering for the free read .

Books recommended are David Frum’s Trumpocracy and How Democracies Die by Levitsky and Ziblatt

Who wrote " It can't happen here ?"


I was able to access the article by googling the title. It makes some good points. Particularly how constitutions don't protect democracies, it's people upholding those constitutions that protects them. Checks and balances both here and in the States are being severely tested right now and although it seems likely those checks and balances will maintain democracy in our respective countries, I certainly don't take it for granted.

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PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 12:36 pm 
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gilsey wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
The acute problem is current Tory policies.....Brexit didn't force them to destroy the NHS

Brexit won't force any govt to destroy the NHS afterwards, either, and I'm getting sick of seeing remainers say it will as if that's a clinching argument, it's Project Fear all over again and it didn't work very well last time.

Brexit will be very bad for workforce management and medical science collaboration, but funding will still be a political decision. The NHS can be be mitigation for Brexit.



I do not understand the last.

Brexit will make the NHS worse. It already is. Almost everything turns in it.

Streeting is obviously right, but the leadership have no interest, and the claims about giving power to members (who agree with Streeting on SM and CU) just bullshit.


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PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 12:41 pm 
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(another prat reference:)
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/t ... u-11840714
"Theresa May is a plastic prat: THIS is how you save the planet"
Quote:
Yesterday the most powerful woman in the country declared her intention to save us all from the plastic menace within 25 years.
Leaving aside the fact Theresa May would be 86 by then and she would require a Mugabe-like grip on power to be in a position to do anything about it, as an aside she claimed that she was doing her bit not by introducing any kind of legislation but by putting up a bat box in her Berkshire garden.


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PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 12:42 pm 
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I accept that most party members would like that to be the ultimate destination, they may not all agree on the best way of trying to get there however.


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PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 12:46 pm 
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Meanwhile, all not quite so well in the tory camp

Nick Timothy, a propped up PM and the weird plot to make Gavin Williamson Tory leader
BY IAIN MARTIN | IAINMARTIN1 / 13 JANUARY 2018

https://reaction.life/nick-timothy-prop ... ry-leader/


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PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 12:47 pm 
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Anna Soubry MP‏Verified account
@Anna_Soubry

More Anna Soubry MP Retweeted Iain Martin
I fear your analysis & commentary is spot on. We will see whether the plea in your conclusion is followed or not ...


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PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 12:52 pm 
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@AngryAsWell

Thanks for the "apostrophe of Bone"!


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PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 1:11 pm 
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PorFavor wrote:
@AngryAsWell

Thanks for the "apostrophe of Bone"!


I thought you would like that :lol:


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PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 1:20 pm 
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
I accept that most party members would like that to be the ultimate destination, they may not all agree on the best way of trying to get there however.



I don't understand that either. Sounds like the usual woolly "focus in the ends" or ""we want no tariff barriers" balls MDcDonnell comes out with.


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PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 1:21 pm 
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Saw Three Billboards last night.
Ex.Cell.Ent


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PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 1:26 pm 
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Amazing. The US Embassy has issued its own statement this evening apparently correcting the US President on the building costs.

https://twitter.com/carldinnen/status/9 ... 9745176576


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PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 1:33 pm 
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SpinningHugo wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
I accept that most party members would like that to be the ultimate destination, they may not all agree on the best way of trying to get there however.



I don't understand that either. Sounds like the usual woolly "focus in the ends" or ""we want no tariff barriers" balls MDcDonnell comes out with.




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PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 1:35 pm 
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Quote:
https://news.sky.com/story/trump-supporters-demand-london-mayor-sadiq-khan-arrest-11205566

Carillion could crash into administration as soon as Monday if the Government does not back a rescue plan, Sky News learns.

Britain's second-largest construction group is on the brink of collapse this weekend as its directors plot last-ditch talks aimed at securing new financial guarantees from ministers.

Sky News has learnt that Carillion, which is building the HS2 high-speed rail link and other big Government infrastructure projects, could crash into administration as soon as Monday.

Its fate hangs on the outcome of emergency talks due to take place on Sunday with ‎Whitehall officials. (Sky News- my emphasis)


https://news.sky.com/story/carillion-teeters-on-brink-as-board-eyes-last-ditch-rescue-plan-11205705


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PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 1:41 pm 
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Jessica Eaton‏
@Jessicae13Eaton

Oh I needed a laugh. This made me full on LOL.

https://twitter.com/Jessicae13Eaton/sta ... 2322832384


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PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 1:44 pm 
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AngryAsWell wrote:
Jessica Eaton‏
@Jessicae13Eaton

Oh I needed a laugh. This made me full on LOL.

https://twitter.com/Jessicae13Eaton/sta ... 2322832384


Thanks!


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PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 2:05 pm 
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I may have said it before, but it bears repeating.

The fatuous "focus on the ends" stuff is exactly the rhetorical device Corbyn uses on foreign policy.

"What would you do about Syria and the butcher Assad?"

"I favour peace and a political solution."

We can all agree that n nice ends ("everything being lovely"). Politics is about how we achieve that, which involves difficult choices.


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PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 2:23 pm 
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
gilsey wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
The acute problem is current Tory policies.....Brexit didn't force them to destroy the NHS

Brexit won't force any govt to destroy the NHS afterwards, either, and I'm getting sick of seeing remainers say it will as if that's a clinching argument, it's Project Fear all over again and it didn't work very well last time.

Brexit will be very bad for workforce management and medical science collaboration, but funding will still be a political decision. The NHS can be be mitigation for Brexit.


The ones who irk me are those who go on about "Brexit making austerity worse" when they didn't give a monkey's about austerity before June 23 2016.

(if this was a case of that day genuinely opening their minds as to why Brexit happened, it would be a different matter - but most of the time, its not)


Hard Brexit is becoming structurally poorer. It's a much bigger deal that some bad fiscal policy for a few years.

Most of the Labour Remainers were perfectly happy with Ed Balls' fiscal policy from 2015 onwards, which (assuming he stuck to it) needed no more than £1bn of austerity, per the IFS.

Brexit happened because of old people.


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PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 2:29 pm 
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And austerity is something of which there are considerable variations in size and distribution.


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PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 2:30 pm 
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It seems not everyone is completely convinced by the veracity of Donald Trump's medical report released yesterday that declared him to be in excellent health:

https://mobile.twitter.com/MaddowBlog/s ... 2968516609

I suspect Trump is unlikely to agree to release anything more revealing than current height and weight and he doesn't actually have to, so the whole embarrassing charade isn't even necessary.

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PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 2:37 pm 
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Good-afternoon


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PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 2:40 pm 
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On a more positive note, I'm delighted with the appointment of a Minister for Buses.

One thing that irritates me with rail is the delays with getting smart ticketing going across the network. The DfT (who've had big departmental cost cuts) ought to have got this done yonks ago.

I don't know how hard it is to do this with buses.


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PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 2:51 pm 
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From the FT about Carillion:

Quote:
Carillion has been struggling for survival since last July, when soaring debts and huge writedowns on the value of several old contracts sparked the first in a series of profit warnings and the departure of its chief executive.


Assuming these contracts are with the government, don't these "huge writedowns" rather suggest that government outsourcing isn't quite the guaranteed freebie we keep hearing?


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PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 3:06 pm 
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Tubby Isaacs wrote:
On a more positive note, I'm delighted with the appointment of a Minister for Buses.

One thing that irritates me with rail is the delays with getting smart ticketing going across the network. The DfT (who've had big departmental cost cuts) ought to have got this done yonks ago.

I don't know how hard it is to do this with buses.



I strongly agree, fwiiw.

If people don't know about it, the app citymapper is a wonder of the world, and will increase the use of public transport (and probably has done already), in particular buses. It is well worth using. In London (and whenever travelling in a City I don't know) it means I use buses far more often,


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PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 3:09 pm 
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Quote:
The snap survey – conducted after Brexit architect Nigel Farage made an unexpected call for a second referendum – found 55 per cent would opt to remain in the EU and 45 per cent to leave if there was another vote. The original vote was 52 per cent to 48 per cent in favour of Brexit.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 54946.html

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PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 3:11 pm 
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Over politeness or can't be arsedness being the key barrier:

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The ComRes poll, for the Daily Mirror, found 43 per cent of voters backed the prospect of a second referendum while 51 per cent opposed the idea.


Barking.

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PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 3:12 pm 
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On a couple of comments above

Of course Brexit will have an impact on the NHS - no-one sensibly denies that but the argument is that is that it is completely disingenuous (and in my view dangerous) to suggest that all current acute problems with the NHS, and other public services is due to it.

The acute issues in social care, the NHS and public infrastructure were already coming before June 2016 - they take a number of years to manifest and were due mainly to Osborne's disastrous economic policies post-2015

The Tories were aided by some Labour politicians providing cover by agreeing that the economic situation was caused by over-spending by Labour in the Brown years and allowing the Tories some cover for their failed policy

It does not matter if thlse Labour politicians accepted a less brutal form of austerity - the damage was done by them accepting the merit of what Osborne was doing

Another suggest 'Streeting is obviously right' - I despise the intellectual weakness of such a statement. How do we know he is 'obviously' right? The same poster was equally strident in their predictions previously without ever being right. i would excpect such a demonstrated level of incompetence would bring some humility - clearly not

For the poster, and Tubby who liked the post so I assume agrees with it, can you please look at the first post I made today and explain how such a solution is in anyway politically stable and also why the to announce it nnow is so absolutely imperative? From an economic point of view I can see the merit but the issue I have is political

I may well be wrong so would never use the word 'obviously' - to do so requires the user to explain clearly why it is so


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