FlyTheNest

A haven
It is currently Fri 19 Oct, 2018 11:22 am

All times are UTC


Forum rules


Welcome to FTN. New posters are welcome to join the conversation. You can follow us on Twitter @FlythenestHaven You are responsible for the content you post. This is a public forum. Treat it as if you are speaking in a crowded room. Site admin and Moderators are volunteers who will respond as quickly as they are able to when made aware of any complaints. Please do not post copyrighted material without the original authors permission.



Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 296 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 3:16 pm 
Offline
First Secretary of State

Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 10:34 am
Posts: 3211
Has thanked: 860 times
Been thanked: 5547 times
tinyclanger2 wrote:
Over politeness or can't be arsedness being the key barrier:

Quote:
The ComRes poll, for the Daily Mirror, found 43 per cent of voters backed the prospect of a second referendum while 51 per cent opposed the idea.


Barking.


I oppose on until someone can say what will be the questions and how it will not cause even more problems than it solves. I could see how it could work but remember the Tories will set the hares running on this and they don't have a great record in this area


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 3:21 pm 
Offline
First Secretary of State

Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 10:34 am
Posts: 3211
Has thanked: 860 times
Been thanked: 5547 times
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
And austerity is something of which there are considerable variations in size and distribution.


But Labour MPs agreeing with the need for austerity, and blaming the Labour 'over-spending' in the Brown years allowed the cover Osborne needed

Once the 'credit card is maxed out' and the 'we will be like Greece' was out there and not challenged then that allowed Osborne to make his deepest cuts


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 3:28 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister
User avatar

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 6:35 pm
Posts: 5851
Has thanked: 10499 times
Been thanked: 7246 times
Another LOL moment, this time one for our teachers..

https://twitter.com/YouHadOneJ0B/status ... 0015006720

Be careful what you ask for in homework! :lol:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 3:30 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister
User avatar

Joined: Thu 11 Sep, 2014 11:22 am
Posts: 15253
Has thanked: 84170 times
Been thanked: 13702 times
it's January all month long
I'm not unwell or peevish
just January


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 3:32 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister
User avatar

Joined: Thu 11 Sep, 2014 11:22 am
Posts: 15253
Has thanked: 84170 times
Been thanked: 13702 times
Quote:
House of Commons Library
Transport 2018: FAQ for MPs
Published Thursday, January 11, 2018

http://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ ... y/CBP-7954


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 3:36 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister
User avatar

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 6:35 pm
Posts: 5851
Has thanked: 10499 times
Been thanked: 7246 times
Brexit likely to have far-reaching effects on UK health and health service, experts suggest

Leaving the EU is likely to have profound effects on health in the UK and the NHS, posing threats to the NHS workforce and finances, the licensing of medical products as well as the UK’s leading role in public health and scientific research.

https://www.lshtm.ac.uk/newsevents/news ... t8.twitter


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 3:41 pm 
Online
Prime Minister

Joined: Tue 26 Aug, 2014 11:18 am
Posts: 10533
Has thanked: 20654 times
Been thanked: 18567 times
Quote:
Fears of Brexit drain as more EU27 ambulance staff quit the NHS
Departures could exacerbate vacancy rates in already understaffed service

Denis Campbell

Sat 13 Jan 2018 13.14 GMT(Guardian)


https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/jan/13/nhs-ambulance-staff-quit-brexit-eu27


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 3:54 pm 
Online
Prime Minister

Joined: Tue 26 Aug, 2014 11:18 am
Posts: 10533
Has thanked: 20654 times
Been thanked: 18567 times
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
From the FT about Carillion:

Quote:
Carillion has been struggling for survival since last July, when soaring debts and huge writedowns on the value of several old contracts sparked the first in a series of profit warnings and the departure of its chief executive.


Assuming these contracts are with the government, don't these "huge writedowns" rather suggest that government outsourcing isn't quite the guaranteed freebie we keep hearing?


Will we ever know which old contracts these are? If Carillion were trying for the sympathy vote, I feel that somehow we'd be "told" that they were directly connected to government outsourcing. (Although I confess to not being au fait with the rules and regulations, if there are any, of disclosing such information in these, or any other, circumstances.)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 4:00 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 11:40 pm
Posts: 21582
Has thanked: 17254 times
Been thanked: 31335 times
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/ ... -elections


Miloš Zeman leads first round of Czech Republic presidential elections

_________________
"under consideration "/may self destruct.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 4:04 pm 
Online
Speaker of the House

Joined: Mon 23 Feb, 2015 8:23 am
Posts: 2009
Has thanked: 13337 times
Been thanked: 4055 times
https://heisenbergreport.com/2018/01/12 ... room-nuts/
"‘Does This Make Sense?’ ‘Yes.’ Transcript Of Trump’s WSJ Interview Is Padded Room Nuts"
Quote:
Lost in Thursday’s “ shithole ” shitstorm was a Wall Street Journal interview with Donald Trump that happened to hit around the same time as the Washington Post article detailing the President’s “ tough ” language on Latin and African immigrants......
......But as batshit as all of those quotes (which appear in the edited version of the interview) are, the full transcript is straight up, padded cell nuts.

I'm reasonably good at wibble, but he lost me at the invisible wall.
(as an aside, when Trump said "very stable" genius, did he mean "veritable genius", and did the rest of the world already realise this & I'm just slow?)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 4:08 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister
User avatar

Joined: Thu 11 Sep, 2014 11:22 am
Posts: 15253
Has thanked: 84170 times
Been thanked: 13702 times
Quote:
"Carillion is a leading integrated support services business. We employ around 43,000 people and operate in the UK, Canada and Middle East. We have annual revenues of more than £5bn."

https://www.carillionplc.com/about-us/our-business/


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 4:08 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 16 Feb, 2015 1:22 pm
Posts: 4211
Has thanked: 157 times
Been thanked: 2277 times
Critics of outsourcing can't have it both ways.

"Carillon going bust shows outsourcing doesn't work."

"Virgins profits shows outsourcing doesn't work."

Carillon will almost certainly go into a CVA. The shareholders will lose. Just like with Railtrack. Not a problem unless you're a shareholder.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 4:13 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister
User avatar

Joined: Thu 11 Sep, 2014 11:22 am
Posts: 15253
Has thanked: 84170 times
Been thanked: 13702 times
SpinningHugo wrote:
Critics of outsourcing can't have it both ways.
Critics and non-critics aren't getting anything but hosed.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 4:14 pm 
Online
Prime Minister

Joined: Tue 26 Aug, 2014 11:18 am
Posts: 10533
Has thanked: 20654 times
Been thanked: 18567 times
tinybgoat wrote:
https://heisenbergreport.com/2018/01/12/does-this-make-sense-yes-transcript-of-trumps-wsj-interview-is-padded-room-nuts/
"‘Does This Make Sense?’ ‘Yes.’ Transcript Of Trump’s WSJ Interview Is Padded Room Nuts"
Quote:
Lost in Thursday’s “ shithole ” shitstorm was a Wall Street Journal interview with Donald Trump that happened to hit around the same time as the Washington Post article detailing the President’s “ tough ” language on Latin and African immigrants......
......But as batshit as all of those quotes (which appear in the edited version of the interview) are, the full transcript is straight up, padded cell nuts.

I'm reasonably good at wibble, but he lost me at the invisible wall.
(as an aside, when Trump said "very stable" genius, did he mean "veritable genius", and did the rest of the world already realise this & I'm just slow?)


Blimey.

But in answer to your question, perhaps he meant to say, "My intellect is on a par with some vegetable genus"?


Last edited by PorFavor on Sat 13 Jan, 2018 4:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 4:14 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 16 Feb, 2015 1:22 pm
Posts: 4211
Has thanked: 157 times
Been thanked: 2277 times
citizenJA wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
Critics of outsourcing can't have it both ways.
Critics and non-critics aren't getting anything but hosed.



The laughter never stops.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 4:16 pm 
Online
Prime Minister

Joined: Tue 26 Aug, 2014 11:18 am
Posts: 10533
Has thanked: 20654 times
Been thanked: 18567 times
Bumboils. My last post was edited to close the quotes.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 4:26 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister
User avatar

Joined: Thu 11 Sep, 2014 11:22 am
Posts: 15253
Has thanked: 84170 times
Been thanked: 13702 times
tinybgoat wrote:
https://heisenbergreport.com/2018/01/12/does-this-make-sense-yes-transcript-of-trumps-wsj-interview-is-padded-room-nuts/
"‘Does This Make Sense?’ ‘Yes.’ Transcript Of Trump’s WSJ Interview Is Padded Room Nuts"
Quote:
Lost in Thursday’s “ shithole ” shitstorm was a Wall Street Journal interview with Donald Trump that happened to hit around the same time as the Washington Post article detailing the President’s “ tough ” language on Latin and African immigrants......
......But as batshit as all of those quotes (which appear in the edited version of the interview) are, the full transcript is straight up, padded cell nuts.

I'm reasonably good at wibble, but he lost me at the invisible wall.
(as an aside, when Trump said "very stable" genius, did he mean "veritable genius", and did the rest of the world already realise this & I'm just slow?)
If we ignore him, he might go away
I know it's not good enough but it's all I've got right now


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 4:29 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 11:40 pm
Posts: 21582
Has thanked: 17254 times
Been thanked: 31335 times
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-42676587


France's first panda cub makes its public debut

_________________
"under consideration "/may self destruct.


Last edited by HindleA on Sat 13 Jan, 2018 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 4:30 pm 
Online
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 8:26 pm
Posts: 8053
Has thanked: 805 times
Been thanked: 17057 times
howsillyofme1 wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
And austerity is something of which there are considerable variations in size and distribution.


But Labour MPs agreeing with the need for austerity, and blaming the Labour 'over-spending' in the Brown years allowed the cover Osborne needed

Once the 'credit card is maxed out' and the 'we will be like Greece' was out there and not challenged then that allowed Osborne to make his deepest cuts


And most did so for totally cynical internal party reasons, which is unforgiveable.

(there are exceptions, admittedly - there is little doubt that Chris Leslie really believes all this rubbish, which just shows his total unfitness to represent Labour at any level)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 4:30 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister
User avatar

Joined: Thu 11 Sep, 2014 11:22 am
Posts: 15253
Has thanked: 84170 times
Been thanked: 13702 times
PorFavor wrote:
Bumboils. My last post was edited to close the quotes.

:rock:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 4:36 pm 
Online
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 8:26 pm
Posts: 8053
Has thanked: 805 times
Been thanked: 17057 times
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
gilsey wrote:
Brexit won't force any govt to destroy the NHS afterwards, either, and I'm getting sick of seeing remainers say it will as if that's a clinching argument, it's Project Fear all over again and it didn't work very well last time.

Brexit will be very bad for workforce management and medical science collaboration, but funding will still be a political decision. The NHS can be be mitigation for Brexit.


The ones who irk me are those who go on about "Brexit making austerity worse" when they didn't give a monkey's about austerity before June 23 2016.

(if this was a case of that day genuinely opening their minds as to why Brexit happened, it would be a different matter - but most of the time, its not)


Hard Brexit is becoming structurally poorer. It's a much bigger deal that some bad fiscal policy for a few years.

Most of the Labour Remainers were perfectly happy with Ed Balls' fiscal policy from 2015 onwards, which (assuming he stuck to it) needed no more than £1bn of austerity, per the IFS.

Brexit happened because of old people.


I blame Balls more than the other Ed for Labour's 2015 defeat, and I'm certainly not alone there.

Your last point is true in that they were the core Brexit vote, but over-simplistic.

Its certainly not far-fetched to suggest that austerity was a major factor in turning the leave vote from (say) high 40s to low 50s.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 4:36 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 10:18 pm
Posts: 9949
Has thanked: 1615 times
Been thanked: 13032 times
howsillyofme1 wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
And austerity is something of which there are considerable variations in size and distribution.


But Labour MPs agreeing with the need for austerity, and blaming the Labour 'over-spending' in the Brown years allowed the cover Osborne needed

Once the 'credit card is maxed out' and the 'we will be like Greece' was out there and not challenged then that allowed Osborne to make his deepest cuts


Brown overspent modestly from about 2002 onwards per Simon Wren Lewis. I don't think pretending it didn't was an option.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 4:40 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 10:18 pm
Posts: 9949
Has thanked: 1615 times
Been thanked: 13032 times
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
And austerity is something of which there are considerable variations in size and distribution.


But Labour MPs agreeing with the need for austerity, and blaming the Labour 'over-spending' in the Brown years allowed the cover Osborne needed

Once the 'credit card is maxed out' and the 'we will be like Greece' was out there and not challenged then that allowed Osborne to make his deepest cuts


And most did so for totally cynical internal party reasons, which is unforgiveable.

(there are exceptions, admittedly - there is little doubt that Chris Leslie really believes all this rubbish, which just shows his total unfitness to represent Labour at any level)


But you can believe Hard Brexit is "an opportunity" and be Shadow Chancellor


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 4:44 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister
User avatar

Joined: Thu 11 Sep, 2014 11:22 am
Posts: 15253
Has thanked: 84170 times
Been thanked: 13702 times
citizenJA wrote:
Quote:
"Carillion is a leading integrated support services business. We employ around 43,000 people and operate in the UK, Canada and Middle East. We have annual revenues of more than £5bn."

https://www.carillionplc.com/about-us/our-business/
(cJA emphasis)
Good. Get the hell back to work


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 4:45 pm 
Online
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 8:26 pm
Posts: 8053
Has thanked: 805 times
Been thanked: 17057 times
He hasn't repeated it has he, I suspect JMcD might have got a fair amount of stick behind the scenes for that.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 4:52 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 10:18 pm
Posts: 9949
Has thanked: 1615 times
Been thanked: 13032 times
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
He hasn't repeated it has he, I suspect JMcD might have got a fair amount of stick behind the scenes for that.


That's true.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 4:52 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 11:40 pm
Posts: 21582
Has thanked: 17254 times
Been thanked: 31335 times
Post as if you wouldn't dare say to face.Anonymous "morality"

_________________
"under consideration "/may self destruct.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 4:52 pm 
Offline
First Secretary of State

Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 10:34 am
Posts: 3211
Has thanked: 860 times
Been thanked: 5547 times
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
And austerity is something of which there are considerable variations in size and distribution.


But Labour MPs agreeing with the need for austerity, and blaming the Labour 'over-spending' in the Brown years allowed the cover Osborne needed

Once the 'credit card is maxed out' and the 'we will be like Greece' was out there and not challenged then that allowed Osborne to make his deepest cuts


Brown overspent modestly from about 2002 onwards per Simon Wren Lewis. I don't think pretending it didn't was an option.



Since when did Simon-Wren Lewis become and arbiter of all things?

Also, does a 'modest overspend' become the justification for the slashing of public spending carried out since 2010 and the damage it has caused. I agree with AK a number of those now bemoaning Brexit were quite happy to see public spending cuts by Osborne

My point also, is that Labour politicians provided the cover for Osborne's austerity in what they said - some spent more time criticising Miliband because he didn't want slash and burn than they did the Tories

Tubby, you also make the point about the inflation caused by the devaluation of the pound since Brexit and the impact that has. If you look at the actual data though you will see the pound devaluation happened well before Brexit, and inflation was much higher around 2012 than it is now.

My argument is, and has been, that Brexit will cause a real problem for the British economy in the future but the problems we are seeing now are down to the Tories and, I am afraid to say, they were not opposed vociferously enough by the Labour Party at the start.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 4:55 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 10:18 pm
Posts: 9949
Has thanked: 1615 times
Been thanked: 13032 times
PorFavor wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
From the FT about Carillion:

Quote:
Carillion has been struggling for survival since last July, when soaring debts and huge writedowns on the value of several old contracts sparked the first in a series of profit warnings and the departure of its chief executive.


Assuming these contracts are with the government, don't these "huge writedowns" rather suggest that government outsourcing isn't quite the guaranteed freebie we keep hearing?


Will we ever know which old contracts these are? If Carillion were trying for the sympathy vote, I feel that somehow we'd be "told" that they were directly connected to government outsourcing. (Although I confess to not being au fait with the rules and regulations, if there are any, of disclosing such information in these, or any other, circumstances.)


They'll be something on the government website saying what the tender was for, but not what the terms agreed were. There should be some financial stuff on what's been written down in the company accounts, but I don't know how how much. I don't know if people can pull the two together.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 4:58 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 10:18 pm
Posts: 9949
Has thanked: 1615 times
Been thanked: 13032 times
SpinningHugo wrote:
Critics of outsourcing can't have it both ways.

"Carillon going bust shows outsourcing doesn't work."

"Virgins profits shows outsourcing doesn't work."

Carillon will almost certainly go into a CVA. The shareholders will lose. Just like with Railtrack. Not a problem unless you're a shareholder.


Maybe Carillion could sell some of its PFI contracts on. Jarvis had to do that in 2004.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 5:04 pm 
Offline
First Secretary of State

Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 10:34 am
Posts: 3211
Has thanked: 860 times
Been thanked: 5547 times
It is impossible for us to judge the reality of outsourcing, does it give value for money and what we are on the hook for unless we see what is in the contracts

Unfortunately, we never seem to and even the NAO has no real visibility either

https://www.ft.com/content/69c31024-4af ... 144feabdc0


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 5:04 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 10:18 pm
Posts: 9949
Has thanked: 1615 times
Been thanked: 13032 times
I mentioned Wren-Lewis as one of Labour's "wise men". Owning up to modest overspending doesn't mean you have to back Osborne.

Inflation has different components. You can't do much about world oil prices which effect everybody. A referendum that just effects you is totally different. People have to be helped to make the link.

You can throw out Osborne cuts. Labour had a good crack at doing in in 2015. What you can't chuck out is Hard Brexit.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 5:08 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 10:18 pm
Posts: 9949
Has thanked: 1615 times
Been thanked: 13032 times
howsillyofme1 wrote:
It is impossible for us to judge the reality of outsourcing, does it give value for money and what we are on the hook for unless we see what is in the contracts

Unfortunately, we never seem to and even the NAO has no real visibility either

https://www.ft.com/content/69c31024-4af ... 144feabdc0


That's a few years out of date. I'd be surprised if EU procurement rules hadn't improved that.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 5:13 pm 
Offline
First Secretary of State

Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 10:34 am
Posts: 3211
Has thanked: 860 times
Been thanked: 5547 times
Just as the 1950-70 were dogmatic nationalizing years, we are now in the 'free market delivers all' dogma - my standard view is that we are handing massive amounts of taxpayer money to private companies (many paying no tax in the UK) of foreign Governments because of this dogma

The question is do they deliver value.....ie cost and quality......not just cost


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 5:14 pm 
Offline
First Secretary of State

Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 10:34 am
Posts: 3211
Has thanked: 860 times
Been thanked: 5547 times
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
It is impossible for us to judge the reality of outsourcing, does it give value for money and what we are on the hook for unless we see what is in the contracts

Unfortunately, we never seem to and even the NAO has no real visibility either

https://www.ft.com/content/69c31024-4af ... 144feabdc0


That's a few years out of date. I'd be surprised if EU procurement rules hadn't improved that.



Have they? It is not that long ago and a lot of contracts were from before then anyway.....


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 5:22 pm 
Offline
First Secretary of State

Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 10:34 am
Posts: 3211
Has thanked: 860 times
Been thanked: 5547 times
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
I mentioned Wren-Lewis as one of Labour's "wise men". Owning up to modest overspending doesn't mean you have to back Osborne.

Inflation has different components. You can't do much about world oil prices which effect everybody. A referendum that just effects you is totally different. People have to be helped to make the link.

You can throw out Osborne cuts. Labour had a good crack at doing in in 2015. What you can't chuck out is Hard Brexit.



What about the devaluation against the Euro that went on before Brexit? (the biggest deflation GBP vs CHF happened well before the Brexit vote)

Owning up to 'overspending' (I never remember hearing the word modest at the time) by Labour politicians gave Osborne the cover he needed to justify austerity

I am not arguing that Brexit is likely to be anything than a disaster but if you continue use it for explaining the problems we have now I would say you are allowing the Tories to deflect blame from their decisions and also underestimate the effect of austerity on the economy and politics as it is now

The Tories seem to be in luck don't they? - they managed to get the blame for the financial crisis to be laid at the door of Labour 'overspending' and the effects of austerity on 'Brexit' which is also compounded that not a few people blame Labour (including Streeting) for that as well


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 5:24 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 10:18 pm
Posts: 9949
Has thanked: 1615 times
Been thanked: 13032 times
howsillyofme1 wrote:
Just as the 1950-70 were dogmatic nationalizing years, we are now in the 'free market delivers all' dogma - my standard view is that we are handing massive amounts of taxpayer money to private companies (many paying no tax in the UK) of foreign Governments because of this dogma

The question is do they deliver value.....ie cost and quality......not just cost


Plus, is it right to outsource at all?

This is a bit subjective, but to me Probation and Prisons ought not to be outsourced at all.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 5:28 pm 
Offline
First Secretary of State

Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 10:34 am
Posts: 3211
Has thanked: 860 times
Been thanked: 5547 times
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
Just as the 1950-70 were dogmatic nationalizing years, we are now in the 'free market delivers all' dogma - my standard view is that we are handing massive amounts of taxpayer money to private companies (many paying no tax in the UK) of foreign Governments because of this dogma

The question is do they deliver value.....ie cost and quality......not just cost


Plus, is it right to outsource at all?

This is a bit subjective, but to me Probation and Prisons ought not to be outsourced at all.



I see it more in my own company Tubby - and it seems there is a dogma that 'somebody else can do it better than us'....which I also see in the public sector as well

The thing is they may be able to do some things better but it is at the cost of flexibility and quality... and actually the cash out works out higher because you are paying for someone else's profit

We also tend to shift cost - the cost looks better but because of the lack of flexibility and understanding of what is required there is a lot more time wasted at the interfaces. I have seen so many examples when outsourcing has led to internal people spending lots of resources correcting errors made elsewhere. The contracts may allow some comeback but often it becomes too time consuming and you end up doing it yourself


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 5:50 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 10:18 pm
Posts: 9949
Has thanked: 1615 times
Been thanked: 13032 times
I've got a worry with Labour that "savings from taking in house" is going to be the new "crack down on tax avoidance" ie a balancing figure stuck into the manifesto to avoid having putting taxes up.

Sure, there'll be savings to be had. But there'll likely be problems too.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 5:51 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister
User avatar

Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 8:18 pm
Posts: 7224
Has thanked: 7655 times
Been thanked: 11631 times
HindleA wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-42676587


France's first panda cub makes its public debut


Is that the same panda cub that 'jumped and snarled' at Mme Macron?

_________________
LET'S FACE IT I'M JUST 'KIN' SEETHIN'


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 5:54 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister
User avatar

Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 8:18 pm
Posts: 7224
Has thanked: 7655 times
Been thanked: 11631 times
Yes the turning on Brown (including stunning awful stuff from the G) was what sparked my ongoing ambivalence for 'my' party.
Looked bad at the time; looks worse now.

_________________
LET'S FACE IT I'M JUST 'KIN' SEETHIN'


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 5:54 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 16 Feb, 2015 1:22 pm
Posts: 4211
Has thanked: 157 times
Been thanked: 2277 times
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
Just as the 1950-70 were dogmatic nationalizing years, we are now in the 'free market delivers all' dogma - my standard view is that we are handing massive amounts of taxpayer money to private companies (many paying no tax in the UK) of foreign Governments because of this dogma

The question is do they deliver value.....ie cost and quality......not just cost


Plus, is it right to outsource at all?

This is a bit subjective, but to me Probation and Prisons ought not to be outsourced at all.


Tricky. Both are now complete disasters, but to what extent is that cuts and to what extent outsourcing?

I strongly believe in whatever works. It is true that most reformers seemed to think that every problem could be solved by creating a market, but we're not really that crude any longer

Some outsourcing (eg road building) has always worked well. It depends. Without strong evidence one way or the other, my conservative instinct is to leave things alone.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 5:56 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister
User avatar

Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 8:18 pm
Posts: 7224
Has thanked: 7655 times
Been thanked: 11631 times
Quote:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 57326.html
Chancellor says Brussels must let go of idea of punishing Britain for voting to leave the bloc


Why 'must' they?

_________________
LET'S FACE IT I'M JUST 'KIN' SEETHIN'


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 5:58 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 16 Feb, 2015 1:22 pm
Posts: 4211
Has thanked: 157 times
Been thanked: 2277 times
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
Critics of outsourcing can't have it both ways.

"Carillon going bust shows outsourcing doesn't work."

"Virgins profits shows outsourcing doesn't work."

Carillon will almost certainly go into a CVA. The shareholders will lose. Just like with Railtrack. Not a problem unless you're a shareholder.


Maybe Carillion could sell some of its PFI contracts on. Jarvis had to do that in 2004.


They'll have long since been used as security.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 5:59 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister
User avatar

Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 8:18 pm
Posts: 7224
Has thanked: 7655 times
Been thanked: 11631 times
Take the floor Tarquin:


_________________
LET'S FACE IT I'M JUST 'KIN' SEETHIN'


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 6:01 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 10:18 pm
Posts: 9949
Has thanked: 1615 times
Been thanked: 13032 times
So the banks are going to wind up with the PFI contracts?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 6:02 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister
User avatar

Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 8:18 pm
Posts: 7224
Has thanked: 7655 times
Been thanked: 11631 times
About time the UK took a leaf out of Northern Europe's book and hiked taxes significantly.
'Bout time we got rid of the toff mentality really.

Innit.

_________________
LET'S FACE IT I'M JUST 'KIN' SEETHIN'


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 6:03 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister
User avatar

Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 8:18 pm
Posts: 7224
Has thanked: 7655 times
Been thanked: 11631 times
Yeah.

_________________
LET'S FACE IT I'M JUST 'KIN' SEETHIN'


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 6:04 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister
User avatar

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 6:35 pm
Posts: 5851
Has thanked: 10499 times
Been thanked: 7246 times
Whatever happens with Carillion you can bet your bottom dollar the pension fund will have a massive black hole in it.
That the government will - eventually - pick up.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 6:09 pm 
Offline
First Secretary of State

Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 10:34 am
Posts: 3211
Has thanked: 860 times
Been thanked: 5547 times
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
I've got a worry with Labour that "savings from taking in house" is going to be the new "crack down on tax avoidance" ie a balancing figure stuck into the manifesto to avoid having putting taxes up.

Sure, there'll be savings to be had. But there'll likely be problems too.



well we will need to get them into power and see......

you can use that last line for everything to be fair


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 296 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], GetYou, Google [Bot], PorFavor, tinybgoat and 45 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group