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 Post subject: Monday 15th January 2018
PostPosted: Mon 15 Jan, 2018 5:46 am 
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Hi all

Was looking in this morning and saw this comment from last night

Quote:
What's it going to be then, eh?

In the single market or out? Are we with those Labour MP's calling for clarity or are we sitting on the fence hoping for the best?

Because I'll not vote Labour at the next GE if this nonsense continues. And I won't be alone.


I would just like to answer to this as I am getting a little concerned those who voted Remain are starting to sound a little like Brexiteers throwing slogans and threats about trying to force things

In Single Market or Out? What does this mean in practice, EEA?. If so, do we stay in the EEA or not? No mention of the CU so what does that mean

Clarity or Fence Sitting unless you have all the answers to a position you are taking and ready to give them why create a hostage to fortune? Why is it imperative for Labour to set out their position now when they have no part in the delivering the solution at the moment? We have been told this since June 23rd 20176 but 18 months later Labour there does not appear to be that much of an issue created by it. As someone stated yesterday all the options are pretty bad so why would anyone want Labour to announce they support a 'bad option' and allow the media to focus on them, whilst the Tories just continue to throw out impossible to achieve slogans. The difference being the Tories actually have to deliver Something whereas Labour don't at the moment

GE vote At the moment 2021 or 2022 so a pretty empty threat. There is a lot of change going to happen before next GE. If May calls another snap election (do we think she will) or DUP pull the plug (not imminent) then it is a fair question

Quote:
Nonsense
This just annoys - I find your position to be nonsense from where I sit

If Labour say SM/CU which seems to be the favourite then they will immediately be asked some of the following questions. I have asked the same questions and have never received a response

What do you mean by 'Single Market' - EEA, EFTA+bilaterals, separate treaty?

If EEA then do we become a member of EEA or have a separate treaty that starts off the same. How will that be managed?

What do we mean by 'in the CU' - is is the same one as now, does it have exemptions?

The minute Labour set out a position SM/CU then there will be a demand to know what it means - even more than their collective ambiguity now. In fact we are asking Labour to be more precise than the Government has been

And the final point - to me the most important

In the referendum campaign Farage made it sound like we were dictated to by the EU. This argument resonated and was a pillar of the Leave vote. It was a lie as we are a member of the club and we are fully involved in the decision making. There is no democratic deficit there

If we stay in EEA (an assumption) and a CU very similar to now but outside the EU then his argument has merit. We will be dictated to (far more than any other non-EU country as Norway is not in the CU) with no say. I, myself, find it difficult to agree to be subject to the rules of a club that contains people close to fascists and where the 70 million population of the UK does not have a say

The only way I see this SM/CU option delivered sustainably is by staying in. Labour has already committed to it for transition. If we can do it from outside then I am interested in how we sell that.

The SM/CU solution is gaining traction but I am not sure all those saying the like it understand the implications. If you put it in terms of what we have now but no say on the rules but subject to them all then would it be so popular?

I keep asking whether I am being dense and missing something - if I am tell me - but no-one does. It is all SM/CU is a no-brainer....


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PostPosted: Mon 15 Jan, 2018 8:41 am 
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Morning HSOM1

The clear divide on Brexit should now IMHO be between those that support Hard Brexit and the rest, being Soft Brexit and all shades of Remain.

This really doesn't suit the Hard Brexit end of the Tories, the Progress bit of Labour or the Lib Dems does it? And they will try and cause trouble for such a coalition. Those who find themselves in the middle of the mess (most of us) need IMHO to stay calm with the likes of the odious A C Grayling and continue to direct our fire at the Tories, difficult though this can be!


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PostPosted: Mon 15 Jan, 2018 8:46 am 
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Folk on Twitter asking some good questions about Carillion.

When did the Government know what about the financial problems there?

How many government contracts have been awarded to Carillion since it was clear there were risks?

How much funding does Carillion give to the Tories?

[Edited to say the answers may be no to these last two, but they are good questions]


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PostPosted: Mon 15 Jan, 2018 8:58 am 
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https://www.gov.uk/government/news/gove ... insolvency

Re below

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Last edited by HindleA on Mon 15 Jan, 2018 9:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon 15 Jan, 2018 8:58 am 
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That's it, Carillion in compulsory liquidation.

Shit :-(


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PostPosted: Mon 15 Jan, 2018 9:01 am 
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PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
Morning HSOM1

The clear divide on Brexit should now IMHO be between those that support Hard Brexit and the rest, being Soft Brexit and all shades of Remain.

This really doesn't suit the Hard Brexit end of the Tories, the Progress bit of Labour or the Lib Dems does it? And they will try and cause trouble for such a coalition. Those who find themselves in the middle of the mess (most of us) need IMHO to stay calm with the likes of the odious A C Grayling and continue to direct our fire at the Tories, difficult though this can be!


Thanks Paul

I am happy with that approach - I understand why people think what they do and are looking at it in different ways but my view is we need to hold fire

It is just the demand for Labour to set out a clear position - which will be unpopular with a large amount of people, because there are no 'good' options available - before the Tories have been exposed for what they are.

I have been in negotiations with the Chinese and one of the tricks they use is to say Nothing. Their assumption is us Westerners are not comfortable with saying Nothing and so will aim to fill the silence^and so increas the risk of giving away the advantage. In the current situation I am happy for the Labour Party to avoid filling the 'silence'

Events (usually significant ones) present opportunities as it provides a context. Any announcement by Labour would require them creating a false urgency and put them in the firing line

At the moment we are in a 'dead time' - the principles of the Withdrawal Agreement has been agreed but the detail and conséquences have not yet become apparent. The EU will start to put pressure on this soon and at that point the Tories are going to be in a bind as they either have to go back on some of their red lines, or some of the pledges they made to the EU

The academics seem to be in agreement that the only way to deliver the Irish dimension is to be in the EEA (or similar) and a very similar CU to what we have now. The political risks of that I have highlighted above

I am sure Starmer and others see all these potential pitfalls which is why I think they are loathe to commit to any structural Framework and focus on the outcomes until they have Something concrete from the Government.


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PostPosted: Mon 15 Jan, 2018 9:05 am 
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PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
Morning HSOM1

The clear divide on Brexit should now IMHO be between those that support Hard Brexit and the rest, being Soft Brexit and all shades of Remain.

This really doesn't suit the Hard Brexit end of the Tories, the Progress bit of Labour or the Lib Dems does it? And they will try and cause trouble for such a coalition. Those who find themselves in the middle of the mess (most of us) need IMHO to stay calm with the likes of the odious A C Grayling and continue to direct our fire at the Tories, difficult though this can be!



So you support staying in the single market and customs union then?

Otherwise, I';ve no idea what ypu mean by soft Brexit? A 'jobs first' Brexit, or somesuch nonsense?


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PostPosted: Mon 15 Jan, 2018 9:12 am 
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PostPosted: Mon 15 Jan, 2018 9:14 am 
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Giles Fraser, Deborah Orr, Nicholas Lezard and Paul Mason binned by the Graun.

Any others?

I rarely read the columnists nowadays, almost uniformly terrible.


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PostPosted: Mon 15 Jan, 2018 9:20 am 
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SpinningHugo wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
Morning HSOM1

The clear divide on Brexit should now IMHO be between those that support Hard Brexit and the rest, being Soft Brexit and all shades of Remain.

This really doesn't suit the Hard Brexit end of the Tories, the Progress bit of Labour or the Lib Dems does it? And they will try and cause trouble for such a coalition. Those who find themselves in the middle of the mess (most of us) need IMHO to stay calm with the likes of the odious A C Grayling and continue to direct our fire at the Tories, difficult though this can be!



So you support staying in the single market and customs union then?

Otherwise, I';ve no idea what ypu mean by soft Brexit? A 'jobs first' Brexit, or somesuch nonsense?


I am not speaking for Paul but if we want to solve the Irish border issue and have the best economic conditions then the only option I see it is staying in the EU - there is no other solution I can see working politically and economically

In order to answer your first question you need to define what you mean by 'Single Market' and 'Custom's Union' by reference to specific agreements ot treaties. The terms in themselves are meaningless.

I will give you some options:

The status quo - we accept all the internal EU obligations without exemption (perhaps Schengen/Euro if we can keep them)
EEA and current CU
EEA and bespoke CU
EFTA and bilaterals including CU
Completely bespoke FTA

Due to the referendum I believe the anything that includes EEA and a strongly linked CU will be politically unstable and so the best option is the top one and stay in as it is the only one that gives us a say on the rules

My defintion of a 'soft' Brexit would be one that leave us in the EEA or equivalent (no-one has said how this would be delivered....would we continue to be a member of the EEA and how will that go down with the other members?) as a minimum. It can go even further and involve the CU

The question is then how do we reverese Brexit....and that is a really tough one to answer


Last edited by howsillyofme1 on Mon 15 Jan, 2018 9:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon 15 Jan, 2018 9:21 am 
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PostPosted: Mon 15 Jan, 2018 9:37 am 
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Still waiting for bailiffs to arrive to collect the keys and turn us all out on the street. No sign yet.

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This won’t be, most likely; but greeds
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To be swept up now, or invent
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I just think it will happen, soon.


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PostPosted: Mon 15 Jan, 2018 9:43 am 
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adam wrote:
Still waiting for bailiffs to arrive to collect the keys and turn us all out on the street. No sign yet.


I hope not my niece/nephew are going to your school in September and are looking forward to it! My eldest niece just left

After playing football (if that is what it was) against your school many years ago and suffering various 'injuries' my concern is less marked.....


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PostPosted: Mon 15 Jan, 2018 9:45 am 
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howsillyofme1 wrote:
adam wrote:
Still waiting for bailiffs to arrive to collect the keys and turn us all out on the street. No sign yet.


I hope not my niece/nephew are going to your school in September and are looking forward to it! My eldest niece just left

After playing football (if that is what it was) against your school many years ago and suffering various 'injuries' my concern is less marked.....


I wonder if the government will find an excuse in this to change finance rules for academies and academy trusts to ease the way to them buying out the buildings and management contracts...

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This won’t be, most likely; but greeds
And garbage are too thick-strewn
To be swept up now, or invent
Excuses that make them all needs.
I just think it will happen, soon.


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PostPosted: Mon 15 Jan, 2018 10:00 am 
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Not sure if we had this on Friday, Frances Coppola thread on Carillon.
https://twitter.com/Frances_Coppola/sta ... 9865441280

Today
Quote:
(((Frances Coppola, Paid Government Troll)))

Verified account

@Frances_Coppola
1h1 hour ago
More
2016 accounts show goodwill as one third (£1.5bn) of Carillion's total assets. This is presumably now written down to zero. That is a whopping hole in its balance sheet. Hence liquidation, not administration.

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PostPosted: Mon 15 Jan, 2018 10:18 am 
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John Manley: Has the penny finally dropped for the DUP?

https://www.irishnews.com/news/2018/01/ ... --1232010/


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PostPosted: Mon 15 Jan, 2018 10:20 am 
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I'm sure we had this at the time but worth reposting.
https://www.regjeringen.no/en/aktuelt/s ... id2578433/
Quote:
We may have rejected membership in the EU twice. However, we have not rejected to take part in European cooperation. Norway cooperates closely with the EU and its member states, because we share a common set of values and because we need joint solutions to shared challenges. We cooperate because it is in our own national interest to do so. The British decision to leave the EU does not change this.

Brexit has, however, put our relationship with the EU squarely in the spotlight. The so-called "Norwegian model" makes headlines on a regular basis, but not always with great accuracy. That is why, today, I would like to outline how our cooperation with the EU is organised and how it works before moving on to Norwegian interests in the brexit process.

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PostPosted: Mon 15 Jan, 2018 10:29 am 
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AngryAsWell wrote:
John Manley: Has the penny finally dropped for the DUP?

https://www.irishnews.com/news/2018/01/ ... --1232010/

Quote:
The context of Mrs Foster's speech was of course Brexit, a DUP-backed misadventure that will have far-reaching implications for Ireland, yet one that has comparatively little support north or south.

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PostPosted: Mon 15 Jan, 2018 10:38 am 
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Northern Ireland Byelection coming in West Tyrone after Barry McElduff resigns. Very safe SF seat last time (50%+ with DUP on c26% in second).

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This won’t be, most likely; but greeds
And garbage are too thick-strewn
To be swept up now, or invent
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I just think it will happen, soon.


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PostPosted: Mon 15 Jan, 2018 11:10 am 
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I think we had something yesterday on the hedge funds making a killing on Carillion.

Quote:
Wok Chi Steve #FBPE


@Wok_Chi_Steve
3h3 hours ago
More
Replying to @AndyMcDonaldMP
No surprise that Carillion CEO Philip Green is a non exec director of one of the biggest US hedge Fund companies, Blackstone

ht ohso.

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PostPosted: Mon 15 Jan, 2018 11:22 am 
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adam wrote:
Northern Ireland Byelection coming in West Tyrone after Barry McElduff resigns. Very safe SF seat last time (50%+ with DUP on c26% in second).


My response remains - WTF was he thinking???


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PostPosted: Mon 15 Jan, 2018 11:38 am 
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gilsey wrote:
I'm sure we had this at the time but worth reposting.
https://www.regjeringen.no/en/aktuelt/s ... id2578433/
Quote:
We may have rejected membership in the EU twice. However, we have not rejected to take part in European cooperation. Norway cooperates closely with the EU and its member states, because we share a common set of values and because we need joint solutions to shared challenges. We cooperate because it is in our own national interest to do so. The British decision to leave the EU does not change this.

Brexit has, however, put our relationship with the EU squarely in the spotlight. The so-called "Norwegian model" makes headlines on a regular basis, but not always with great accuracy. That is why, today, I would like to outline how our cooperation with the EU is organised and how it works before moving on to Norwegian interests in the brexit process.


Exactly this:

Quote:
It is true that it would be possible to retain access to the single market without the EEA Agreement, if the product you want to sell there complies with single market rules and standards. But what the EEA Agreement does is to give us participation of the internal market, and that is something quite different. It means we share the same regulatory framework so that the entire single market of half a billion people is actually our own home market, not just for goods, but also for services. No free-trade agreement can equal that.


Many Norwegian politicians feel that Norway would be better off in the EU, but can't persuade the electorate to support the idea, so for them participating fully in the single market from outside is the next best option, especially as they would agree with a lot of the rules and regulations about safety and standards that they have to adhere to in the single market anyway. Leaving the single market only makes sense if you wish to undercut it with lower standards in some way. At least I assume that's the motivation for Tory Brexiters. Get rid of human rights, workers rights, health and safety and red tape and trade with our old imperial colonies in a global race to the bottom. Still think part of the plan was to bring the EU down, with our exit triggering a mass exodus via a wave of nationalist sentiment. If the EU holds firm is it possible they'll lose their bottle? I suspect I'm grasping at straws. But I reckon things aren't going quite as they hoped and with enthusiasm for Brexit waning the desire to cling onto power may start to override ideological Brexit obsessions and pragmatism may reassert itself. I can only hope.

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PostPosted: Mon 15 Jan, 2018 11:52 am 
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“”The comments echo a report by Politico, which claims Mr Johnson told allies that those calling for Britain to remain tied to EU rules and regulations after Brexit were “mad,” adding that: “You’d be better off staying in.”

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/fo ... -face-soft

Wiff/waff , Boris backtracks ??


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PostPosted: Mon 15 Jan, 2018 12:02 pm 
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Hi Willow

I cannot comment on the attempts to bring down the EU as I don't have any evidence but it would not surpise me at all if that was on the agenda of not a few people

Norway is a bit similar to Switzerland, in that the politicians know that the current status is not at all optimal. The populations of both countries though seem to have come to terms with them maintaining this 'pretence' of being outside but being subject to the rules nonetheless

It is a little like (crap analogy alert!) buying a house with someone but then make a big play of not marrying them.

The difference with the UK is that the psychological effect of leaving seems to be different and it seems to be a lot more difficult to partially leave rather than partially join........will the UK electorate accept, for example, the same EEA agreement as Norway has?

And. of course, EEA excludes CU so we would have to add that on top - and all the EEA members are also Schengen, which is not in the base EEA agreement (as I understand it) but is a separate agreement. Would we be accepted to join the EEA triumverate with us dwarfing the size of all the other countries put together, the clearly untrustworthy and arrogant approach we have shown recently and also by excluding other common parts of the EEA members such as Schengen?

I am not sure if any discussions along these lines have taken place with the EEA members - or do we just assume that if we want to join in the end the others will agree?


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PostPosted: Mon 15 Jan, 2018 12:05 pm 
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frog222 wrote:
“”The comments echo a report by Politico, which claims Mr Johnson told allies that those calling for Britain to remain tied to EU rules and regulations after Brexit were “mad,” adding that: “You’d be better off staying in.”

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/fo ... -face-soft

Wiff/waff , Boris backtracks ??


Well he's certainly right that we'd be better off staying in than leaving.

:D

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PostPosted: Mon 15 Jan, 2018 12:06 pm 
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Ooof, the old soft left have been routed in the NEC elections. It is a new party. Some more MPs bound to quit now.


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PostPosted: Mon 15 Jan, 2018 12:27 pm 
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SpinningHugo wrote:
Ooof, the old soft left have been routed in the NEC elections. It is a new party. Some more MPs bound to quit now.


what is this 'new party' crap - especially after a previous incarnation called itself 'New Labour'!

Every political party goes through an evolution over time to respond to different needs. Labour led the state-interventionist consensus after the post-war period but this was undermined by the collapse of Bretton-Woods and the oïl price crisis. Then the free-marketeers took hold of the right and the Tory Party led these policies finally leading to the 'New Labour' project which accepted a lot of their principles (if not there manner of introducing them). After the financial crisis we may be looking at a new politics that rails back a bit on the free market and loks for more state involvement

The Labour Party as it is now promotes nothing like the level of state involvement seen until the 70s but at the same time rejects the free market above all policies that have held sway since

The anomaly for me was the neo-liberal aspects of New Labour, not the current Policy framework


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PostPosted: Mon 15 Jan, 2018 12:29 pm 
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when the centre/right are in the ascendency in the labour party, the left shut up and stay put, unless they are forced out by the leadership When the left take the ascendency, the centre/right threaten to bugger off, or actually do so, with inevitable consequences for electoral success.

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PostPosted: Mon 15 Jan, 2018 12:30 pm 
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Interesting description there by SH of the Progress/LF slate as "old soft left".

And yes, I can think of a few MPs who I wouldn't be sad to see go.


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PostPosted: Mon 15 Jan, 2018 12:40 pm 
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good-afternoon, everyone


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PostPosted: Mon 15 Jan, 2018 12:40 pm 
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howsillyofme1 wrote:
Hi Willow

I cannot comment on the attempts to bring down the EU as I don't have any evidence but it would not surpise me at all if that was on the agenda of not a few people

Norway is a bit similar to Switzerland, in that the politicians know that the current status is not at all optimal. The populations of both countries though seem to have come to terms with them maintaining this 'pretence' of being outside but being subject to the rules nonetheless

It is a little like (crap analogy alert!) buying a house with someone but then make a big play of not marrying them.

The difference with the UK is that the psychological effect of leaving seems to be different and it seems to be a lot more difficult to partially leave rather than partially join........will the UK electorate accept, for example, the same EEA agreement as Norway has?

And. of course, EEA excludes CU so we would have to add that on top - and all the EEA members are also Schengen, which is not in the base EEA agreement (as I understand it) but is a separate agreement. Would we be accepted to join the EEA triumverate with us dwarfing the size of all the other countries put together, the clearly untrustworthy and arrogant approach we have shown recently and also by excluding other common parts of the EEA members such as Schengen?

I am not sure if any discussions along these lines have taken place with the EEA members - or do we just assume that if we want to join in the end the others will agree?


Well we're not going to have discussions with other EEA members if we pursue a hard Brexit agenda and take staying in the single market off the table as an option, are we. That's what the Tories have done and that's what I'm dead against. Labour could take a different positition, could say that they wouldn't rule such things out - in fact Keir Starmer has done just that! and I agree with his position. It's not as if what the Tories want is in any way possible (pick and mix, control over borders and immigration, complete access for financial services, not follow single market rules and regulations but not have a hard border in Ireland, Canada plus plus trade deal delivered by March 2019 etc etc). In comparison, a soft Brexit keeping us in the single market, perhaps by being in the EEA, perhaps by another route, seems both practically more possible and also more agreeable to those with whom we need to agree it with.

As far as the UK electorate is concerned we have voted out of the EU. Changing that and staying in is the hardest to pull off, although the Tories with the most leave voters could do it perhaps as their voters would have nowhere else to go if all other parties are pro-EU. This could be what has prompted Farage's intervention. The threat of a re-invigorated UKIP taking votes off of a Tory party that fails to take us out of the EU is going to force Theresa May to keep going and see it through, I suspect. This leaves completely out, and negotiating a Canada style trade deal, or partially in, continuing to participate in the single market, as the basic broad sweep options. I prefer the latter. I prefer to support a party that favours the latter. I think quite a few Labour MPs prefer the latter. Lots of things Corbyn has said, however, both now and in the past makes me think he doesn't personally, but I have no idea really or if it makes a difference to the Labour party position. You bring lots of other elements that may or may not be included in a "soft Brexit" (like Schengen or CU) into this basic picture without ever explaining how any of them make a "soft Brexit" worse, from a pro-EU person's perspective, than a hard Brexit. You agree the Norwegians have preferred the compromises of being in the single market from outside the EU over being outside both and I don't really see why the UK wouldn't find the balance of considerations very similar. The fact we started off in a better position than we are ending up is irrelevant. Leaving the EU is stupid but we're doing it. You don't make that better by making things even harder for yourself by leaving the single market as well.

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PostPosted: Mon 15 Jan, 2018 12:44 pm 
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adam wrote:
when the centre/right are in the ascendency in the labour party, the left shut up and stay put, unless they are forced out by the leadership When the left take the ascendency, the centre/right threaten to bugger off, or actually do so, with inevitable consequences for electoral success.
Labour peoples wanting government leadership must stow differences, behave professionally, do the job and stay together.


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PostPosted: Mon 15 Jan, 2018 12:50 pm 
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citizenJA wrote:
adam wrote:
when the centre/right are in the ascendency in the labour party, the left shut up and stay put, unless they are forced out by the leadership When the left take the ascendency, the centre/right threaten to bugger off, or actually do so, with inevitable consequences for electoral success.
Labour peoples wanting government leadership must stow differences, behave professionally, do the job and stay together.

I'd like to multiple thank these two brief, yet powerful posts. Thank you :-)


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PostPosted: Mon 15 Jan, 2018 12:50 pm 
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Mark Di Stefano ‏Verified account
@MarkDiStef

Former chancellor George Osborne’s Evening Standard editorial on Carillion’s bust: "Why has the state found itself so dependent on a few very large outsourcing firms?”

Scroll past the straws bit to get to
Who bails out Carillion?

https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comm ... 40116.html

Then file under
"Not me Gov"
Or "You-couldn't-make-it-up"


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PostPosted: Mon 15 Jan, 2018 12:51 pm 
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How do "contracts underperform", please?


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PostPosted: Mon 15 Jan, 2018 12:53 pm 
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What the hell happened to all the money Carillion had?


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PostPosted: Mon 15 Jan, 2018 12:59 pm 
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AngryAsWell wrote:
Mark Di Stefano ‏Verified account
@MarkDiStef

Former chancellor George Osborne’s Evening Standard editorial on Carillion’s bust: "Why has the state found itself so dependent on a few very large outsourcing firms?”

Scroll past the straws bit to get to
Who bails out Carillion?

https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comm ... 40116.html

Then file under
"Not me Gov"
Or "You-couldn't-make-it-up"
I got a real problem with Osborne. Always have


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PostPosted: Mon 15 Jan, 2018 1:03 pm 
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Watching if Paul gets a multiple thank option,it should be one person one vote.

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PostPosted: Mon 15 Jan, 2018 1:03 pm 
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citizenJA wrote:
What the hell happened to all the money Carillion had?


The G have a live Carillion blog, not read it all but might explain some

Carillion liquidation
https://www.theguardian.com/business/li ... e#comments

See : IoD blasts Carillion over bonuses at 12.21
The Institute of Directors has issued a stinging rebuke to Carillion’s top executives and directors over its pay policies.

Roger Barker, head of corporate governance at the IoD, is particularly alarmed that the company changed its bonus rules to protect top bosses.


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PostPosted: Mon 15 Jan, 2018 1:05 pm 
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PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
adam wrote:
when the centre/right are in the ascendency in the labour party, the left shut up and stay put, unless they are forced out by the leadership When the left take the ascendency, the centre/right threaten to bugger off, or actually do so, with inevitable consequences for electoral success.
Labour peoples wanting government leadership must stow differences, behave professionally, do the job and stay together.

I'd like to multiple thank these two brief, yet powerful posts. Thank you :-)
There's no other way. Every Labour MP needs to have that on their work space. You want Labour government? Stay together, work together, find consensus. There's no other way getting a Labour government.


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PostPosted: Mon 15 Jan, 2018 1:12 pm 
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AngryAsWell wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
What the hell happened to all the money Carillion had?


The G have a live Carillion blog, not read it all but might explain some

Carillion liquidation
https://www.theguardian.com/business/li ... e#comments

See : IoD blasts Carillion over bonuses at 12.21
The Institute of Directors has issued a stinging rebuke to Carillion’s top executives and directors over its pay policies.

Roger Barker, head of corporate governance at the IoD, is particularly alarmed that the company changed its bonus rules to protect top bosses.


https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/stat ... 1368932352

He is so alarmed that ""IT MAY BE NECESSARY" for the govt to do something !

Mealy-mouthed ain't in it .


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PostPosted: Mon 15 Jan, 2018 1:23 pm 
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Quote:
"...in his new role as editor of the Evening Standard, Osborne blames the civil service for handing too many contracts to big firms like Carillion.
---"
https://www.theguardian.com/business/li ... 50d29719cd
Osborne blames the civil service. The unmitigated gall of the man


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PostPosted: Mon 15 Jan, 2018 1:31 pm 
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oh, jesus this is awful


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PostPosted: Mon 15 Jan, 2018 1:38 pm 
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PostPosted: Mon 15 Jan, 2018 1:51 pm 
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Not always


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PostPosted: Mon 15 Jan, 2018 1:53 pm 
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Willow

On this part

Quote:
You bring lots of other elements that may or may not be included in a "soft Brexit" (like Schengen or CU) into this basic picture without ever explaining how any of them make a "soft Brexit" worse, from a pro-EU person's perspective, than a hard Brexit.


I though I had explained why I think this - but if not I will try to do so again briefly

The UK voted Leave and one of the reasons often given was the lie that there was a democratic deficit in our relations. It was clearly pointed out that we have a loud voice in the décisions of the EU as a large country and net contributor.

If we go for the EEA then we will be subject to the same terms as Norway with the benefits of participation but no real say on the rules. This is compounded further if we have, as is commonly stated, a very smilar CU deal to what we have now

In effect we will be in the EU mechanisms but with no say....and that is before we have negotiated and see whether there are any more add-ons (such as Schengen although I doubt it).

The issue I as a 'pro-EU' is that no matter how pro-EU I am, I am not at all happy about handing over that level of sovereignty to an EU where we do not have a say and which means those mean little proto-fascists in the East have more rights than our elected Government on many of the rules affecting our regulatory and trade décisions that will impact us

Are you happy with that? Do you think no-one will mention this as a potential issue?

It will be fine for the transition, it may even work for a bit after that but it would only be a stepping stone to either a Hard Brexit or Go back in

And this is not like Norway, who have accepted a half-way solution after voting not to go in....this is a country that voted Leave

You speak of 'why would this be a problem for someone pro-EU?' - well it is a problem for me and I am....so I guess I will not be alone. I doubt this solution would endear itself to many Leavers either

You can think I am creating a 'Project Fear' about this...perhaps I am but it is why I am not so gung-ho about Labour announcing this as a firm policy when there is no need to

As a further point, you only mention EEA membership and Single Market but this is not what a lot of people are talking about - they want SM and CU which is another level of integration. In fact a lot of the most vocal people are now clearly calling for the softest of Brexits which is out whilst, in effect, being in - so it is not just the Leavers who are divided over what the endgame is


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PostPosted: Mon 15 Jan, 2018 1:59 pm 
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I think you're dead right about one thing lots of us aren't taking seriously enough. How unpalatable "pay no say" will be to lots of people, even some who voted Remain.

But I don't see another option. Labour needs to prepare the ground for this. Not easy.


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PostPosted: Mon 15 Jan, 2018 2:03 pm 
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I don't see any point at all in pretending that there is any merit at all in somehow respecting 'the will of the people' by leaving but then doing everything that would involve maintaining cu/sm functional membership. Why do that instead of just saying 'we should not be leaving?'. The point will come where somebody in leadership has to just bite that bullet.

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PostPosted: Mon 15 Jan, 2018 2:07 pm 
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howsillyofme1 wrote:
Willow

On this part

Quote:
You bring lots of other elements that may or may not be included in a "soft Brexit" (like Schengen or CU) into this basic picture without ever explaining how any of them make a "soft Brexit" worse, from a pro-EU person's perspective, than a hard Brexit.


I though I had explained why I think this - but if not I will try to do so again briefly

The UK voted Leave and one of the reasons often given was the lie that there was a democratic deficit in our relations. It was clearly pointed out that we have a loud voice in the décisions of the EU as a large country and net contributor.

If we go for the EEA then we will be subject to the same terms as Norway with the benefits of participation but no real say on the rules. This is compounded further if we have, as is commonly stated, a very smilar CU deal to what we have now

In effect we will be in the EU mechanisms but with no say....and that is before we have negotiated and see whether there are any more add-ons (such as Schengen although I doubt it).

The issue I as a 'pro-EU' is that no matter how pro-EU I am, I am not at all happy about handing over that level of sovereignty to an EU where we do not have a say and which means those mean little proto-fascists in the East have more rights than our elected Government on many of the rules affecting our regulatory and trade décisions that will impact us

Are you happy with that? Do you think no-one will mention this as a potential issue?

It will be fine for the transition, it may even work for a bit after that but it would only be a stepping stone to either a Hard Brexit or Go back in

And this is not like Norway, who have accepted a half-way solution after voting not to go in....this is a country that voted Leave

You speak of 'why would this be a problem for someone pro-EU?' - well it is a problem for me and I am....so I guess I will not be alone. I doubt this solution would endear itself to many Leavers either

You can think I am creating a 'Project Fear' about this...perhaps I am but it is why I am not so gung-ho about Labour announcing this as a firm policy when there is no need to

Can see it leading to a eea based settlement with most people seeing it as a short term pain remainers hoping to then move back into eu, and leavers hoping to move to full full hard brexit & the fight just continuing.


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PostPosted: Mon 15 Jan, 2018 2:09 pm 
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Tubby Isaacs wrote:
I think you're dead right about one thing lots of us aren't taking seriously enough. How unpalatable "pay no say" will be to lots of people, even some who voted Remain.

But I don't see another option. Labour needs to prepare the ground for this. Not easy.


Thanks Tubby, I am only raising this as a reason for Labour not committing too early and I struggle to see how they can get around it.....it will be a very unpopular decision whoever makes it

The Withdrawal Agreement with the EU, if you take it as read, should lead to the EEA/CU solution if only on Ireland (and to be fair Labour's 6 tests do too). I think we should let the Tories try to explain that this is a consequence of that agreement - there is still a way for them to go on that

I could see it playing out that the Tories have to go with this scenario in the end and then someone, hopefully Labour, will point out that if this is the deal on offer we should stay in if they let us. Hopefully all this will bring down the Tory Government and it will be a Labour one that is there to convince the EU of a new start and reversal of policy....I also believe in unicorns by the way!

Joking and wishful thinking aside, my personal view is that Starmer is well aware of all this and that is in his mind.....he is far cleverer than me after all. I hope he is already working on how to manage this out of sight of us.

My message is clear - don't commit to an unpopular policy (which this will be) until you have to..........wait until it becomes clearer to a good proportion of the population that it is inevitable


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