Monday 15th January 2018

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howsillyofme1
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Re: Monday 15th January 2018

Post by howsillyofme1 »

adam wrote:I don't see any point at all in pretending that there is any merit at all in somehow respecting 'the will of the people' by leaving but then doing everything that would involve maintaining cu/sm functional membership. Why do that instead of just saying 'we should not be leaving?'. The point will come where somebody in leadership has to just bite that bullet.
I agree with your sentiments

On that last point, do you think Labour should say that officially now? That is what a vocal lot of people are asking to happen

I would like the big policy decision from Labour to back staying in via whatever means are available..........or going back in and using the EEA/CU as a stopgap

If that is the case then now is absolutely not the time to do that - they would be cruicified

My wwhole point is not on the endgame etc, it is the incessant demand for Labour to make their position clear - and that to me is not at all the right move today
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adam
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Re: Monday 15th January 2018

Post by adam »

howsillyofme1 wrote:
adam wrote:I don't see any point at all in pretending that there is any merit at all in somehow respecting 'the will of the people' by leaving but then doing everything that would involve maintaining cu/sm functional membership. Why do that instead of just saying 'we should not be leaving?'. The point will come where somebody in leadership has to just bite that bullet.
I agree with your sentiments

On that last point, do you think Labour should say that officially now? That is what a vocal lot of people are asking to happen

I would like the big policy decision from Labour to back staying in via whatever means are available..........or going back in and using the EEA/CU as a stopgap

If that is the case then now is absolutely not the time to do that - they would be cruicified

My wwhole point is not on the endgame etc, it is the incessant demand for Labour to make their position clear - and that to me is not at all the right move today
I agree here too, and I wonder if the answer is by raising the question regularly - this is the real world, and we can't just get what we want - so if we have to eventually make a choice between functional membership without a say and having to pay, and some kind of continued economic (and so on) stability, or out meaning out with the severe short and medium term (at least) economic (and so on) consequences that will follow, then what do we choose? At the moment the public aren't being primed to consider this as a relevant question, but it may all come down to that choice - goodness, an actually meaningful binary choice. Maybe we could have a vote...
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AnatolyKasparov
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Re: Monday 15th January 2018

Post by AnatolyKasparov »

Labour are surely hoping here that the government is forced by events into making such an unpalatable announcement first?
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Willow904
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Re: Monday 15th January 2018

Post by Willow904 »

tinybgoat wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:Willow

On this part
You bring lots of other elements that may or may not be included in a "soft Brexit" (like Schengen or CU) into this basic picture without ever explaining how any of them make a "soft Brexit" worse, from a pro-EU person's perspective, than a hard Brexit.
I though I had explained why I think this - but if not I will try to do so again briefly

The UK voted Leave and one of the reasons often given was the lie that there was a democratic deficit in our relations. It was clearly pointed out that we have a loud voice in the décisions of the EU as a large country and net contributor.

If we go for the EEA then we will be subject to the same terms as Norway with the benefits of participation but no real say on the rules. This is compounded further if we have, as is commonly stated, a very smilar CU deal to what we have now

In effect we will be in the EU mechanisms but with no say....and that is before we have negotiated and see whether there are any more add-ons (such as Schengen although I doubt it).

The issue I as a 'pro-EU' is that no matter how pro-EU I am, I am not at all happy about handing over that level of sovereignty to an EU where we do not have a say and which means those mean little proto-fascists in the East have more rights than our elected Government on many of the rules affecting our regulatory and trade décisions that will impact us

Are you happy with that? Do you think no-one will mention this as a potential issue?

It will be fine for the transition, it may even work for a bit after that but it would only be a stepping stone to either a Hard Brexit or Go back in

And this is not like Norway, who have accepted a half-way solution after voting not to go in....this is a country that voted Leave

You speak of 'why would this be a problem for someone pro-EU?' - well it is a problem for me and I am....so I guess I will not be alone. I doubt this solution would endear itself to many Leavers either

You can think I am creating a 'Project Fear' about this...perhaps I am but it is why I am not so gung-ho about Labour announcing this as a firm policy when there is no need to
Can see it leading to a eea based settlement with most people seeing it as a short term pain remainers hoping to then move back into eu, and leavers hoping to move to full full hard brexit & the fight just continuing.
Or maybe a proper debate actually begins?
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howsillyofme1
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Re: Monday 15th January 2018

Post by howsillyofme1 »

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Labour are surely hoping here that the government is forced by events into making such an unpalatable announcement first?

well it is their policy if you look at the Phase 1 Withdrawal Agreement

Either they renege on that and abandon Ireland to a hard border or they abandon all the red lines and tear the party apart and resurrect the Farage

Why not let them have the arguments?
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AngryAsWell
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Re: Monday 15th January 2018

Post by AngryAsWell »

Debbie Abrahams MP‏Verified account
@Debbie_abrahams

Read my full letter to Esther McVey following her appointment as Secretary of State for Work and Pensions. As I say here, your policies are hurting the people they should help most and continuing down the current road will only cause more misery.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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AngryAsWell
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Re: Monday 15th January 2018

Post by AngryAsWell »

Why Carillion has gone into liquidation rather than administration
The failure of the construction company indicates there was no viable business to sell

https://www.ft.com/content/a4dd80be-f9f ... 9be7f3120a" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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citizenJA
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Re: Monday 15th January 2018

Post by citizenJA »

George Osborne’s attempt to blame the civil service for the Carillion crisis may be backfiring, as photos of the ex-chancellor posing in Carillion-branded hard hats hit the internet.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/li ... d428b08c27" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Good
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citizenJA
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Re: Monday 15th January 2018

Post by citizenJA »

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Labour are surely hoping here that the government is forced by events into making such an unpalatable announcement first?
Precisely
Tubby Isaacs
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Re: Monday 15th January 2018

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Labour are surely hoping here that the government is forced by events into making such an unpalatable announcement first?

Hang on! You saying Tory Soft Brexit is on?

What happens after? Labour agree with the PM?
howsillyofme1
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Re: Monday 15th January 2018

Post by howsillyofme1 »

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Labour are surely hoping here that the government is forced by events into making such an unpalatable announcement first?

Hang on! You saying Tory Soft Brexit is on?

What happens after? Labour agree with the PM?
The Phase 1 Withdrawal Agreement says that is their policy doesn't it? Just as it is Labour's Policy but just less precisely. None of the defined outcomes can be delivered without it. All on here know that the only realistic final state will be EEA (and a CU?) - I think even quite a few Tories know that in their hearts. Starmer does as well and he seems to the one leading Labour on this

The likelihood though that is going to cause all sorts of ructions internally for the Government if this starts becoming apparent during the finalisation of this document

The Labour Party is in a much stronger position to sell this as the membership would accept it, and the party hasn't specifically ruled anything out

The question, as always, is timing

If Labour try to sell EEA/CU now as an option I can see nothing but shit being thrown at them from all directions.......if they wauit until the Tories are having to face up to reality then that is the right time to bring it up - as adam has already said perhaps we can start talking about the options now though

Whether Labour get the timing right or not we cannot say at the moment...it will be with hindsight
AnatolyKasparov
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Re: Monday 15th January 2018

Post by AnatolyKasparov »

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Labour are surely hoping here that the government is forced by events into making such an unpalatable announcement first?

Hang on! You saying Tory Soft Brexit is on?

What happens after? Labour agree with the PM?
Events may force it on them, especially when it becomes evident even to many "leave" voters how catastrophic a "no-deal" Brexit would actually be.

It increasingly looks like an inescapable "devil and deep blue sea" scenario for the Tories - either plunge us into economic catastrophe or tear their own party to bits.

Couldn't happen to a nicer bunch......
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Re: Monday 15th January 2018

Post by HindleA »

https://labourlist.org/2018/01/upbeat-i ... executive/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
howsillyofme1
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Re: Monday 15th January 2018

Post by howsillyofme1 »

Events may force it on them, especially when it becomes evident even to many "leave" voters how catastrophic a "no-deal" Brexit would actually be.

It increasingly looks like an inescapable "devil and deep blue sea" scenario for the Tories - either plunge us into economic catastrophe or tear their own party to bits.

Couldn't happen to a nicer bunch......
I think you are being generous to them there AK I think it is economic catastrophe and tear their parliamentary party and donors apart or economic status quo and tear their voters and party apart (although that may be two old ladies called Doris and their pet cat by then!)

Labour don't have the same risk to their party by going more pro-EU....it is that Corbyn is a true eurosceptic (not anti-EU though as that word is often used for) and they have an issue in a number of key seats where the Leave vote is concentrated. Hopefully the former becomes a non-issue. The latter may be trickier to get around
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Re: Monday 15th January 2018

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

I think the PM will get forced into Soft Brexit. So why not get there first?

Labour has a problem with being seen as anti business. It might win an elect even so it'll get pressure on the pound. Brexit is a godsend in that it allows them to paint the Tories in that way.
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AngryAsWell
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Re: Monday 15th January 2018

Post by AngryAsWell »

Seb Dance: Farage has let the cat out of the bag- the people should have the final say

https://labourlist.org/2018/01/seb-danc ... final-say/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
howsillyofme1
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Re: Monday 15th January 2018

Post by howsillyofme1 »

Tubby Isaacs wrote:I think the PM will get forced into Soft Brexit. So why not get there first?

Labour has a problem with being seen as anti business. It might win an elect even so it'll get pressure on the pound. Brexit is a godsend in that it allows them to paint the Tories in that way.
They may well do Tubby

Depends how it pans out though.....i don't think it will be as simple as a declaration from the Tories due to their internal problems.

I hope that once negotiations start Labour get ready to announce at the right moment based on events

Now is definitely not the right time though
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AngryAsWell
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Re: Monday 15th January 2018

Post by AngryAsWell »

Head of unregistered private school banned from teaching over safeguarding concerns

https://schoolsweek.co.uk/head-of-unreg ... -concerns/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Inspectors also raised concerns about the state of the school site itself, warning that the toilet area in the school had no running water and classrooms were “unkempt, cold and inadequate”. At the time of the inspections, the former Ofsted chief inspector Sir Michael Wilshaw branded it a “deeply troubling case”, and described conditions in the school as “squalid”.
SpinningHugo
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Re: Monday 15th January 2018

Post by SpinningHugo »

citizenJA wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Labour are surely hoping here that the government is forced by events into making such an unpalatable announcement first?
Precisely

ie Labour's policy is to be fractionally more Remainy than the Tories.

That is it.

Pathetic hardly covers it.
PaulfromYorkshire
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Re: Monday 15th January 2018

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

SpinningHugo wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Labour are surely hoping here that the government is forced by events into making such an unpalatable announcement first?
Precisely

ie Labour's policy is to be fractionally more Remainy than the Tories.

That is it.

Pathetic hardly covers it.
No it's to be smart. Something you obviously can't understand!
HindleA
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Re: Monday 15th January 2018

Post by HindleA »

[youtube]ATL31TiexWI[/youtube]
howsillyofme1
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Re: Monday 15th January 2018

Post by howsillyofme1 »

SpinningHugo wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Labour are surely hoping here that the government is forced by events into making such an unpalatable announcement first?
Precisely

ie Labour's policy is to be fractionally more Remainy than the Tories.

That is it.

Pathetic hardly covers it.

Looking at the many interesting posts from different points of view aren't you a bit embarrassed by your repetitive and shallow contributions?
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Willow904
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Re: Monday 15th January 2018

Post by Willow904 »

Lidington: Taxpayers mustn't bail out Carillion
Banks and lenders get paid first when a company goes into liquidation. It will be the small companies that supplied goods and services on credit that will be the most worried. Customers often lose out too. Will that include the government in this case? I'm not sure, but not bailing Carillion out doesn't automatically mean taxpayers won't lose money, I suspect. Shareholders are last in line, though I doubt anyone is worried about them.
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citizenJA
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Re: Monday 15th January 2018

Post by citizenJA »

It's straight out of the Tao Te Ching
'in action, watch the timing'
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citizenJA
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Re: Monday 15th January 2018

Post by citizenJA »

'In business, be competent.'

I like that one.
No exploitation, cheating or decimating competitors
Do the job well
that's all
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citizenJA
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Re: Monday 15th January 2018

Post by citizenJA »

Virgin Media users who move to no-service areas hit with exit fees
The broadband service is only available to 50% of the country – yet there’s a penalty of up to £240 to end a contract early
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2018/ ... t-exit-fee" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Virgin refunded **** ********* the fee as a “goodwill gesture” after the Observer intervened, stating that his complaint had been handled incorrectly, but it refuses to budge in the case of *** *******, who paid up after being threatened with court proceedings. She has now referred her complaint to the alternative dispute resolution service Cisas.
(cJA edit & emphasis)

What's a 'dispute resolution service'?
Too complicated, it's not functional or efficient, all of it
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citizenJA
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Re: Monday 15th January 2018

Post by citizenJA »

Sir Richard Branson tells Virgin Trains to lift ban on Daily Mail
Branson says decision was taken without his knowledge and company should not be seen to be ‘censoring’ or ‘moralising’
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... daily-mail" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Get the goddamn Morning Star in there too, exploiter of working people
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SpinningHugo
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Re: Monday 15th January 2018

Post by SpinningHugo »

PaulfromYorkshire wrote: No it's to be smart. Something you obviously can't understand!

Depends what you mean by smart.

Electorally it is great. A brilliant strategy.

Just disastrous for the UK, and especially the poorest.

Lots of wubble about a "jobs first Brexit" opposing "Tory Hard Brexit" maximising "access" to the single market emphasisiing "free trade. Views from frontbenchers running the full gamut of views from pro-freedom of movement to anti-customs union. Labour has had it easy, and has done well in polling terms using this strategy.

It is, basically, wholly dishonest,but very successful. If what you care about is The Game.
SpinningHugo
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Re: Monday 15th January 2018

Post by SpinningHugo »

Put another way, if the party were now being led by Ed Miliband, would the approach to Brexit have been the same?

Obviously not.

But then, it isn't that kind of party now, at all.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/s ... wer-remain" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
tinybgoat
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Re: Monday 15th January 2018

Post by tinybgoat »

[youtube]uYM8xNj5nYE[/youtube]
PaulfromYorkshire
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Re: Monday 15th January 2018

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

SpinningHugo wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote: No it's to be smart. Something you obviously can't understand!

Depends what you mean by smart.

Electorally it is great. A brilliant strategy.

Just disastrous for the UK, and especially the poorest.

Lots of wubble about a "jobs first Brexit" opposing "Tory Hard Brexit" maximising "access" to the single market emphasisiing "free trade. Views from frontbenchers running the full gamut of views from pro-freedom of movement to anti-customs union. Labour has had it easy, and has done well in polling terms using this strategy.

It is, basically, wholly dishonest,but very successful. If what you care about is The Game.
No as I've said a hundred times I think it's the best way to avoid Brexit.

Why come to a Forum and just ignore comments of others as though they'd never said them?
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RogerOThornhill
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Re: Monday 15th January 2018

Post by RogerOThornhill »

Afternoon all. An exciting day in the library...and yes, I'm being serious.

So...
Robert Peston
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3h3 hours ago
More
Carillion’s collapse is the definitive end of Tory and New Labour governments 25-year love affair with private provision of public services " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …
Transferring public sector employees to the private sector and then paying those companies to manage them never made any sense. Hopefully this will start to be rolled back and we never hear that dread term "public sector reform" ever again.
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howsillyofme1
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Re: Monday 15th January 2018

Post by howsillyofme1 »

It is really quite difficult to stop myself getting into a non-productive discussion with a certain someone........

It would be really nice though if they actually engaged with people and showed some respect to other points of view.....but that seems to be a forlorn hope

I don't think I have ever had contact anyone with such a sense of their own infallibility despite virtually every political prediction they have made being wrong
howsillyofme1
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Re: Monday 15th January 2018

Post by howsillyofme1 »

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote: No it's to be smart. Something you obviously can't understand!

Depends what you mean by smart.

Electorally it is great. A brilliant strategy.

Just disastrous for the UK, and especially the poorest.

Lots of wubble about a "jobs first Brexit" opposing "Tory Hard Brexit" maximising "access" to the single market emphasisiing "free trade. Views from frontbenchers running the full gamut of views from pro-freedom of movement to anti-customs union. Labour has had it easy, and has done well in polling terms using this strategy.

It is, basically, wholly dishonest,but very successful. If what you care about is The Game.
No as I've said a hundred times I think it's the best way to avoid Brexit.

Why come to a Forum and just ignore comments of others as though they'd never said them?

I think there is a word for that Paul
PaulfromYorkshire
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Re: Monday 15th January 2018

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

howsillyofme1 wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Why come to a Forum and just ignore comments of others as though they'd never said them?

I think there is a word for that Paul
;-)
SpinningHugo
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Re: Monday 15th January 2018

Post by SpinningHugo »

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote: No it's to be smart. Something you obviously can't understand!

Depends what you mean by smart.

Electorally it is great. A brilliant strategy.

Just disastrous for the UK, and especially the poorest.

Lots of wubble about a "jobs first Brexit" opposing "Tory Hard Brexit" maximising "access" to the single market emphasisiing "free trade. Views from frontbenchers running the full gamut of views from pro-freedom of movement to anti-customs union. Labour has had it easy, and has done well in polling terms using this strategy.

It is, basically, wholly dishonest,but very successful. If what you care about is The Game.
No as I've said a hundred times I think it's the best way to avoid Brexit.

Why come to a Forum and just ignore comments of others as though they'd never said them?
Ok, tell me the serious scenario where we avoid Brexit.

[Taking into account that there is no longer time for a second referendum, so that can be discounted.]
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Re: Monday 15th January 2018

Post by gilsey »

I don't know whether this is genuine but it doesn't really matter, it's an excellent summary.

I voted Brexit. It was a huge mistake & now I want to remain. Will you forgive me?
https://thereflective.co.uk/voted-brexit-now-remain/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Monday 15th January 2018

Post by PorFavor »

@PaulfromYorkshire

I leave it to you to welcome the new, belated, and too-late-to-be-of-any-use member of the Ed Miliband fan-club.
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Re: Monday 15th January 2018

Post by refitman »

[youtube]G6Kspj3OO0s[/youtube]
PorFavor
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Re: Monday 15th January 2018

Post by PorFavor »

Report on UK's reliance on EU workers 'must be published urgently'

Business leaders urge Amber Rudd to bring forward report’s release, expected days before Brexit deal is due to be finalised
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... udd-brexit
gilsey
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Re: Monday 15th January 2018

Post by gilsey »

Willow904 wrote:
Lidington: Taxpayers mustn't bail out Carillion
Banks and lenders get paid first when a company goes into liquidation. It will be the small companies that supplied goods and services on credit that will be the most worried. Customers often lose out too. Will that include the government in this case? I'm not sure, but not bailing Carillion out doesn't automatically mean taxpayers won't lose money, I suspect. Shareholders are last in line, though I doubt anyone is worried about them.
I think we can assume that the banks aren't expecting to recover much, there's talk that they've been pressing the govt behind the scenes to keep awarding contracts in an effort to keep it afloat, because of the scale of losses they would face.

Insolvency Service info is that direct employees will continue to be paid, govt is funding that but it's not really a bailout if they're doing the same work they were before.

Carillion's suppliers were on 90-120 day terms so will be owed substantial amounts of money and be in big trouble. Some of them might be bailed out in effect, if that's found to be the best way to continue to deliver a public service.
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Willow904
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Re: Monday 15th January 2018

Post by Willow904 »

But Lidington insisted that Carillion isn’t being bailed out, as its creditors and shareholders have been hit.
If creditors are unlikely to get anything, then I imagine HMRC are probably owed a chunk that won't be paid out either.
"Fall seven times, get up eight" - Japanese proverb
SpinningHugo
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Re: Monday 15th January 2018

Post by SpinningHugo »

PorFavor wrote:@PaulfromYorkshire

I leave it to you to welcome the new, belated, and too-late-to-be-of-any-use member of the Ed Miliband fan-club.

These things are, of course, relative. I had no problem voting for an Ed Miliband led party. It was, then, a social democratic party in the European tradition.
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citizenJA
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Re: Monday 15th January 2018

Post by citizenJA »

gilsey wrote:I don't know whether this is genuine but it doesn't really matter, it's an excellent summary.

I voted Brexit. It was a huge mistake & now I want to remain. Will you forgive me?
https://thereflective.co.uk/voted-brexit-now-remain/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Very good
Forgiveness freely given from me though I'd never ask for it. It doesn't seem necessary at all after having read their explanation and analysis.
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citizenJA
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Re: Monday 15th January 2018

Post by citizenJA »

Willow904 wrote:
But Lidington insisted that Carillion isn’t being bailed out, as its creditors and shareholders have been hit.
If creditors are unlikely to get anything, then I imagine HMRC are probably owed a chunk that won't be paid out either.
Seize assets
The government shouldn't have any problem with that
They've got their hostile environment Home Office thing ready and waiting
howsillyofme1
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Re: Monday 15th January 2018

Post by howsillyofme1 »

To avoid Brexit....very difficult to be honest because of that referendum decided on by your 'well suited' PM David Cameron

The key enabler is a change of Government - hopefully prior to 2021.....the negotiations still see the possibility of bringing down the Tories as the Withdrawal Agreement runs contrary to what they have promised their supporters. That may just give us a window beforeleaving but is very unlikely

Firstly, we will have to have the status quo until 2021 and then it will be up to a change in Government coupled with an extension to take us back in after doing a lot of crawling.......this is again a long shot

This has been ordained since the referendum and I know you will keep banging on about the A50 vote but I am confident that history will look back on that as a bit of a sideshow as the reality was it was never going to be beaten - and to vote against would have destroyed the Labour opposition at that point in time

So, the exit from the EU was caused by the Tories promising a referendum, the Tories leading the campaign and messing it up and the Tories taking it through Parliament.

You try to blame Labour consistently but there is only one party to blame - there are a lot of supporting acts in there as well but the main star was Mr Cameron and his sidekick at the Evening Standard who is now trying to rewrite history in all respects

The problem we also have is this one about the 'pay no say' (thanks for that Tubby) scenario you seem to favour. I would like to see how you would sell that particular option to the voters? You can start with me as I feel it is a real case of handing over sovereignty
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RogerOThornhill
Prime Minister
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Re: Monday 15th January 2018

Post by RogerOThornhill »

Willow904 wrote:
But Lidington insisted that Carillion isn’t being bailed out, as its creditors and shareholders have been hit.
If creditors are unlikely to get anything, then I imagine HMRC are probably owed a chunk that won't be paid out either.
It's getting to be a long time ago that I did this stuff but I'm pretty sure that HMRC are high up the list of who gets paid first - way ahead of ordinary creditors IIRC.
If I'm not here, then I'll be in the library. Or the other library.
PaulfromYorkshire
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Re: Monday 15th January 2018

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

SpinningHugo wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Why come to a Forum and just ignore comments of others as though they'd never said them?
Ok, tell me the serious scenario where we avoid Brexit.

[Taking into account that there is no longer time for a second referendum, so that can be discounted.]
So, we proceed as though we are leaving. I do not accept that the timescales laid out for leaving are inflexible. There is time.

We identify which aspects of the EU people actually want to leave. The outcome will probably be that people want some control on freedom of movement and a greater feeling of sovereignty, while maintaining free trade.

The first of these two is readily solved. Other EU jurisdictions already control who is allowed to live and work there. New policy could easily be articulated. The apparent democratic deficit is perhaps harder, because it's largely an illusion. In any case, the UK is not alone in the EU in wanting changes in these areas.

As a result of constructive engagement with other EU states, who in the main do not want the UK to leave, a new accommodation is found that benefits the wider EU. The UK will probably have to sign up for some kind of "concession" as a slap for having been naughty (end of rebate?) and we have the win win solution.

You normally argue with details. What's important to me is a general approach that comes from knowledge of leadership strategies. It's forward looking, rather than backwards, and starts from where people are. It's risky for sure. We've never been here. Nobody can know what such a solution looks like in precise detail. But the rewards are potentially high, with a more settled UK in a better EU. It's worth a shot I reckon.
frog222
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Re: Monday 15th January 2018

Post by frog222 »

howsillyofme1 wrote:It is really quite difficult to stop myself getting into a non-productive discussion with a certain someone........

It would be really nice though if they actually engaged with people and showed some respect to other points of view.....but that seems to be a forlorn hope

I don't think I have ever had contact anyone with such a sense of their own infallibility despite virtually every political prediction they have made being wrong
HSOM - if in doubt do not feed :-)
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Willow904
Prime Minister
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Re: Monday 15th January 2018

Post by Willow904 »

RogerOThornhill wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
But Lidington insisted that Carillion isn’t being bailed out, as its creditors and shareholders have been hit.
If creditors are unlikely to get anything, then I imagine HMRC are probably owed a chunk that won't be paid out either.
It's getting to be a long time ago that I did this stuff but I'm pretty sure that HMRC are high up the list of who gets paid first - way ahead of ordinary creditors IIRC.
Very long time ago I would say. HMRC haven't been preferential creditors for a quite a while. They rank alongside unsecured creditors these days.
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