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PostPosted: Sat 20 Jan, 2018 10:15 pm 
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Don’t panic! Why the social care crisis will not be solved by making a crisis out of social care

https://theindependentlivingdebate-word ... tions/amp/


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PostPosted: Sat 20 Jan, 2018 10:16 pm 
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Neil Henderson‏Verified account
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MAIL ON SUNDAY: Top Tories in Chinese ‘Cash for Brexit’ furore #tomorrowspaperstoday

https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/9 ... 6299378688

Interesting.....


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PostPosted: Sat 20 Jan, 2018 10:17 pm 
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"Younger people who require care and support feature barely at all in this debate, a fact that appears to be behind the governments’ decision to address its incoming Green Paper exclusively to older people."


Last edited by HindleA on Sat 20 Jan, 2018 11:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat 20 Jan, 2018 10:21 pm 
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"We also need to overcome the ‘othering’ "

"We require a new narrative, employing values and frames to enlist support for and building understanding of the crucial role that social care can play in creating a better society for all."


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PostPosted: Sat 20 Jan, 2018 10:40 pm 
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...a free market – only works when everyone plays by the same rules. While I don’t believe the government should involve itself in the day-to-day management of businesses, the state can and should help to rebalance the system in favour of ordinary working people. And since I became prime minister, that’s exactly what I’ve been doing.

- Theresa May

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... heresa-may
From May's article in the G


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PostPosted: Sat 20 Jan, 2018 10:44 pm 
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Theresa May's words aren't credible, she's no integrity at all


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PostPosted: Sat 20 Jan, 2018 10:57 pm 
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Peter Stringfellow‏Verified account
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In the next few weeks I will be meeting @vincecable to see where the Remainers next step is and if there is any help I can give ! A pity @theresa_may and the @Conservatives @UKLabour aren't listening to the voice of reason .Forget a referendum it's a General Election we need !

https://twitter.com/PJStringfellow/stat ... 2787638272

Peter Stringfellow ?
Strange bedfellows theses days - no pun intended :lol:


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PostPosted: Sat 20 Jan, 2018 11:33 pm 
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Goodnight, everyone
love,
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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jan, 2018 9:30 am 
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Good morning

I see the idea of EEA/CU is now being assumed as being the go-to option for people who voted Remain in the referendum

My own personal view, which will no doubt be controversial, is that just like those who voted Leave did not appreciate the implications of their vote, I am not so sure that the proponents of this idea have thought things through

This option would be unique for a 3rd party country - none of the EEA or CH have this option. Probably for a good reason.
Would the EEA allow us to join, we would dominate politically and economically?
Continued ECJ
Continued large payments to the EU
No say on any of the rules but really-bound to accept them

We will be subject to rules that we have no say over anymore and we will be paying massively for the privilege. When challenged on the sovereignty implications of this - we will no longer be able to say 'we are represented in the Parliament and the Council of Ministers'

The point I am raising is that some of the most keen on this idea that want to force Labour to commit to this now, are providing a great big target for the right wing press to aim at.

I am not surprised the leadership is not keen on making this massive policy move without very, very careful consideration on how they convince people it is a good idea

I, for one, am someone who would not accept the 'EEA/CU' option without some clear indication on how this is not handing over sovereignty to the EU - in emotional terms I do not want Austria, Hungary, Poland and perhaps other fascists having more say on some of the rules that bind us than our own Government.

I am convinced that a deal like this would be hugely unstable in the medium term and it will just keep our relationship with Europe at the centre of politics - and not in a positive sense

I am not saying that this cannot be worked through but I want to see more from the proponents of this idea as to how that can be done - just as we ask the Brexiteers. Labour has already committed to the 2 year transition period which is fine, it is what happens after

I just do not understand why Labour has to do this now either.....all these 'demands' to jump in this direction......


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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jan, 2018 10:12 am 
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I think there'll be a number of remainers who're proposing EEA+CU because it leads to a conclusion that it would be better to stay in, for the reasons you list.

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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jan, 2018 10:25 am 
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gilsey wrote:
I think there'll be a number of remainers who're proposing EEA+CU because it leads to a conclusion that it would be better to stay in, for the reasons you list.

Agreed.

I also agree that it would be disastrous for Labour to commit to a firm policy position now, of any flavour. Labour doesn't control the agenda and, yes, the Tories and the press will rip them to shreds.

It would be good to start a list of amendments Labour has voted for and that the Tories oppose. At the end of this sorry process, Labour will be able to say this is what we believe in on Brexit, we have tried our best to change the Government's mind and they have not listened.

At that point they will I'm sure judge that their tests have not been met and that the right thing to do is vote Remain in any final vote.


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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jan, 2018 10:26 am 
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http://www.cbi.org.uk/news/evidence-not ... r-britain/

Quote:
Evidence not ideology: Why a customs union is best for Britain


The director-general of the CBI, Carolyn Fairbairn, is indicating in this article that a Canada-type trade deal wouldn't be acceptable to business, that a Norway type solution in the single market would be better but still problematic and that there are many reasons why a Customs Union is pretty much essential.

These comments are all made on the basis that we are leaving the EU and therefore have to make the best Brexit we can.

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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jan, 2018 10:37 am 
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PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
gilsey wrote:
I think there'll be a number of remainers who're proposing EEA+CU because it leads to a conclusion that it would be better to stay in, for the reasons you list.

Agreed.

I also agree that it would be disastrous for Labour to commit to a firm policy position now, of any flavour. Labour doesn't control the agenda and, yes, the Tories and the press will rip them to shreds.

It would be good to start a list of amendments Labour has voted for and that the Tories oppose. At the end of this sorry process, Labour will be able to say this is what we believe in on Brexit, we have tried our best to change the Government's mind and they have not listened.

At that point they will I'm sure judge that their tests have not been met and that the right thing to do is vote Remain in any final vote.


I agree with the "keeping all options open" policy, but that's why I get so frustrated when Corbyn rules out remaining in the single market as that's the exact opposite of keeping all options open and it closes down, rather than opens up, debate.

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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jan, 2018 10:48 am 
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Willow,

I am not talking about the economics side here, I will leave that to others better qualified - although my impression is that economists don't really cover themselves in glory with their predictions

What I talk about is the political fall out of a 'pay, no say' (copyright T Isaacs) scenario

I, as a person who voted Remain and still is a believer the EU does give us a benefit, am very uncomfortable with us handing over our sovereignty like this with no clear indication of how we influence decisions

An EEA/CU deal outside the EU is not a viable political option as I see it - as always, though, open-minded so if someone wants to convince me otherwise

I agree with Gilsey's comment as well - but it is a dangerous game to play for a political party to come out for that now. The only logical outcome is to actual stay in and I have seen no evidence that suggests that would carry the electorate (polls are far too close to give much confidence). The mechanism for actually reversing the Brexit decision has yet to be put forward convincingly

In order to have any of this we need to remove the Tory Government - and Brexit is not their weak spot at the moment. It may well come to be in the future but their incompetence in running the country is where the focus should be. Labour fighting about Brexit at the moment does nothing except help the Tories in my view - with no appreciable benefit

As an aside just watched 'The Big Question' on BBC - very worrying that Trump does not seem to be quite as unpopular as we would like to see. 30 years of neo-liberalism and its failure to deliver for a lot of people has seemed to both make them tolerant of populist right-wing 'common sense' and also turned them off sensible discussion

I heard 'trickle down' and the Laffer Curve being quoted unchallenged.......


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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jan, 2018 10:51 am 
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Willow904 wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
gilsey wrote:
I think there'll be a number of remainers who're proposing EEA+CU because it leads to a conclusion that it would be better to stay in, for the reasons you list.

Agreed.

I also agree that it would be disastrous for Labour to commit to a firm policy position now, of any flavour. Labour doesn't control the agenda and, yes, the Tories and the press will rip them to shreds.

It would be good to start a list of amendments Labour has voted for and that the Tories oppose. At the end of this sorry process, Labour will be able to say this is what we believe in on Brexit, we have tried our best to change the Government's mind and they have not listened.

At that point they will I'm sure judge that their tests have not been met and that the right thing to do is vote Remain in any final vote.


I agree with the "keeping all options open" policy, but that's why I get so frustrated when Corbyn rules out remaining in the single market as that's the exact opposite of keeping all options open and it closes down, rather than opens up, debate.

I agree.

I think the trouble is that on political issues like this Corbyn is a pedantic geek. Without wishing to reopen the very interesting discussions we've had on the subject, it may well be that technically he is correct in what he says, but it's unhelpful.


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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jan, 2018 11:04 am 
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Quote:
A senior Labour source said: “The single market is not a membership club that can be joined so we seek through negotiation to retain the benefits of the single market.


I agree with this comment entirely - the membership belongs to an organisation. EU, EEA or via a specific treaty

The first one seems difficult, I will come back to the second one, and the third one has been ruled out by the EU - although Macron has not sounded so convincing on this recently .

When we talk 'Single Market', most indications I have seem to be that people mean via membership of the EEA. The EEA treaty is an agreement between EFTA and the EU so once outside we will need to join EFTA and then sign the EEA agreement. We could I suppose follow the Swiss example and try for bilaterals but that is not popular with the EU

I have not seen Labour rule out membership of the EEA (or EFTA) post-Brexit although I may be wrong.

Once we leave then we would need to apply to join EFTA and that is the decision for the EFTA Council - and there are some obligations within that.

So the 'stay in the single market' actually means we have to join a club, and then join a sub-group within that by signing a treaty.

We will then be subject to the terms of that treaty, which involve us having certain obligations and certain rights with respect to the EU Internal Market

The position I have always taken is that this term can mean different things and Corbyn is interpreting as one whilst others are interpreting as another.


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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jan, 2018 11:08 am 
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@HSOM

I think the head of the CBI is quite entitled to worry about the practical and economic implications of Brexit and what is best for businesses rather than what it best for politicians. Sometimes what is best for business is proportionally given too much prominence, but in the case of Brexit I feel rather the opposite has been the case and as such I thought this article represents a significant intervention. This is why I shared it. I thought a different perspective might be informative. Certainly her arguments for a Customs Union were compelling and have led me to reconsider its importance relative to other issues.

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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jan, 2018 11:23 am 
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Willow904 wrote:
http://www.cbi.org.uk/news/evidence-not-ideology-why-a-customs-union-is-best-for-britain/

Quote:
Evidence not ideology: Why a customs union is best for Britain


The director-general of the CBI, Carolyn Fairbairn, is indicating in this article that a Canada-type trade deal wouldn't be acceptable to business, that a Norway type solution in the single market would be better but still problematic and that there are many reasons why a Customs Union is pretty much essential.

These comments are all made on the basis that we are leaving the EU and therefore have to make the best Brexit we can.

Throughout the post-referendum period the CBI have been the dog that didn't bark, like tory MPs, they put a tory govt ahead of the good of the country.
There's nothing here that business leaders haven't known from the beginning.

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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jan, 2018 11:28 am 
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Yes, the fact is that JC is correct when he says those non-EU members who effectively take part in the single market aren't strictly speaking members of it.


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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jan, 2018 11:29 am 
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Quote:
Tomas Hirst


@tomashirstecon
26m26 minutes ago
More
Still think Labour see absolutely 0 value in clarifying their Brexit position. Lesson they took from GE2017 was that it’s a much lower salience issue than feared. It is misleading? Absolutely. Is debate about Brexit trade-offs poorer as a result? Yep. But blunts Tory attacks.

In a nutshell.

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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jan, 2018 11:31 am 
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gilsey wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
http://www.cbi.org.uk/news/evidence-not-ideology-why-a-customs-union-is-best-for-britain/

Quote:
Evidence not ideology: Why a customs union is best for Britain


The director-general of the CBI, Carolyn Fairbairn, is indicating in this article that a Canada-type trade deal wouldn't be acceptable to business, that a Norway type solution in the single market would be better but still problematic and that there are many reasons why a Customs Union is pretty much essential.

These comments are all made on the basis that we are leaving the EU and therefore have to make the best Brexit we can.

Throughout the post-referendum period the CBI have been the dog that didn't bark, like tory MPs, they put a tory govt ahead of the good of the country.
There's nothing here that business leaders haven't known from the beginning.


Which is why this statement now stands out. It's clear and it's detailed and cuts through the party politics of it all. Incidentally, it was a certain shadow Brexit minister who drew my attention to the article on twitter:

Quote:
Keir Starmer
@Keir_Starmer
·
2h
Important intervention from the CBI. Labour will push govt. to secure Brexit transitional arrangements urgently & to put a Customs Union back on the negotiating table for the long term.


https://mobile.twitter.com/Keir_Starmer ... 9852994560

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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jan, 2018 11:36 am 
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And it appears that Corbyn has an "unlikely" ally in Macron, who apparently said this morning that "leaving the EU means leaving the single market".


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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jan, 2018 11:40 am 
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Sorry Willow

I agree with your comments, and the follow up from gilsey

Apologies for any misunderstanding


Last edited by howsillyofme1 on Sun 21 Jan, 2018 11:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jan, 2018 11:42 am 
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/01 ... -watchdog/

Care homes selling dead residents' possessions and keeping the cash, watchdog warns


https://www.gov.uk/government/consultat ... fter-death


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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jan, 2018 12:07 pm 
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gilsey wrote:
Quote:
Tomas Hirst

@tomashirstecon
26m26 minutes ago
More
Still think Labour see absolutely 0 value in clarifying their Brexit position. Lesson they took from GE2017 was that it’s a much lower salience issue than feared. It is misleading? Absolutely. Is debate about Brexit trade-offs poorer as a result? Yep. But blunts Tory attacks.

In a nutshell.
Quite


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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jan, 2018 12:08 pm 
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Good-afternoon, everyone


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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jan, 2018 12:15 pm 
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Enjoying the discussion here this morning.

It is surprising it's taken so long for the impact on business to come to the fore.

I hope we hear too from smaller, non-London based businesses too. That's probably what's really needed for the tide to turn.


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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jan, 2018 12:16 pm 
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
And it appears that Corbyn has an "unlikely" ally in Macron, who apparently said this morning that "leaving the EU means leaving the single market".


I can't find where Macron said that. I did find the following though:

http://www.itv.com/news/2018-01-21/cbi- ... -business/

Quote:
"There is no cherry picking in the single market," he said. "To get full access to the single market you need contribution to the budget, and you have to accept the freedoms and four pillars and have to accept the jurisdiction."


No surprises there, of course.

Meanwhile, the CBI are definitely starting to lock horns with the hard Brexiters I think. From the same article:

Quote:
Carolyn Fairbairn, director general of the business group, told the Peston on Sunday news show that it was time to "revisit" some of the red lines previously laid down by the UK Government.

"In looking at this hard choice around Customs Union or not, the value of our frictionless trade within the European Union is worth more than having the potentially unknown value of trade deals in other parts of the world."

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Last edited by Willow904 on Sun 21 Jan, 2018 12:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jan, 2018 12:18 pm 
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Quote:
Boardroom excesses can no longer be tolerated. The economy has to work for all
by Theresa May

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... heresa-may
Open for comments at this moment


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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jan, 2018 12:26 pm 
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The question to answer this 'access to single market' question is the How about how it is delivered. I find this not to have really been addressed....and the potential difficulties or opportunities that could be delivered

I have always assumed the base would be EEA with some add-ons on top. No-one has really asked how acceptable some of this would be to the other EEA countries. All the EFTA countries have 'opted-in' to Schengen.....and although not part of the EEA agreement this has always seemed to have included a bit of strong-arming.

As the add-ins would be pretty extensive and be a new situation, again how will the EFTA/EEA countries respond?

Before a Labour Party commits to anything I would hope they have some indications of how this would be seen by other countries that are impacted - it is not just us

Or do people envisage a different model entirely

I am sorry to be a pain on this but we saw how Brexit set out grand statements of a reality that has been shown not to exist - I find some of the utterances from the most vocal proponents of this to be similar. I would rather they spent their time really developing the options and addressing some of these questions than running to the press 'demanding' others just agree with them


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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jan, 2018 12:39 pm 
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PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
Enjoying the discussion here this morning.

It is surprising it's taken so long for the impact on business to come to the fore.

I hope we hear too from smaller, non-London based businesses too. That's probably what's really needed for the tide to turn.


What to do, though, if the tide turns and Jeremy Corbyn doesn't (I don't necessarily take the latter as a given)?

As things stand (ie we're leaving) I'd still vote Labour - but if things change, what then? I'm not convinced that, if Jeremy Corbyn sticks to what appears to be his fixed position, he wouldn't be voluntarily putting a future Labour Government in an avoidable financial danger zone whereby the changes he (and I) want to see are unaffordable (or much less affordable). Labour who want change but haven't got the money or somebody else (whoever that might be - but obviously not the Conservatives, although I can't speak for the greater electorate) who wants less change but at least would stand a better chance of achieving their aims (despite these being on a considerably smaller scale that those that I would like to see)?

Or is Jeremy Corbyn holding back because he believes that, once all the evidence is in, a dramatic change of position would be more effective than a gradual "thawing"?

Right - ramble over.

Edited to, hopefully, make it flow better


Last edited by PorFavor on Sun 21 Jan, 2018 12:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jan, 2018 12:40 pm 
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Good morfternoon.


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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jan, 2018 12:40 pm 
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Dr Ben White‏Verified account
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Following Following @drbenwhite

'Halt ACOs' due to "a great deal of concern".
@sarahwollaston, chair of @CommonsHealth, to @Jeremy_Hunt.

https://twitter.com/drbenwhite/status/9 ... 3771436032

Sarah Wollaston's letter attached to tweet.


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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jan, 2018 12:50 pm 
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This from City AM confusingly has a slightly different quote, but the general gist is similar:

Quote:
Macron said: "And you should understand that you cannot, by definition, have the full access to the Single Market if you don't tick the box, and to get full access to the Single Market you need contribution to the budget, and you have to accept the freedoms and the four pillars, and you have to accept the jurisdiction.

As soon as you decide not to join these preconditions it's not full access, so it's something perhaps between this full access and a trade agreement.


I don't see anything about having to leave the single market when we leave the EU, just a reiteration of what has been said already, that for the UK to enjoy all the benefits of the single market we have to accept all the rules. This is very much what I have been saying. If you accept the rules you are in effect "in" the single market and will get all the economic benefits, if you don't you will be outside the SM and will only get reduced benefits.

http://www.cityam.com/279128/french-pre ... it-deal-uk

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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jan, 2018 12:58 pm 
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AngryAsWell wrote:
Dr Ben White‏Verified account
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Following Following @drbenwhite

'Halt ACOs' due to "a great deal of concern".
@sarahwollaston, chair of @CommonsHealth, to @Jeremy_Hunt.

https://twitter.com/drbenwhite/status/9 ... 3771436032

Sarah Wollaston's letter attached to tweet.

The thing I find most mysterious about these ACOs we're hearing about now is, what happened to the STPs which were supposed to be the next stage but haven't even been introduced yet? They weren't good but they had a veneer of democracy and consultation, suddenly we're going to leapfrog them to a new system that's had no consultation at all, via a load of un-debated statutory instruments?

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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jan, 2018 1:14 pm 
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I just don't think that Corbyn is emotionally wedded to hard Brexit in the way that the #FBFE brigade like to claim, and that will become evident in time.


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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jan, 2018 1:18 pm 
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Who out side the EU has full access to the EU internal market? Nobody I would venture

The EEA has exceptions from certain parts, and Switzerland most definitely does

Quote:
If you accept the rules you are in effect "in" the single market and will get all the economic benefits, if you don't you will be outside the SM and will only get reduced benefits.


I find it easier to accept that the EU Internal Market is just that an Internal Market. If we leave the EU then we are outside it but can have access to certain parts via a treaty - the Internal Market (which is actually what the treaties talk about) also comprises Euro, the CU and real free movement of people as far as I can tell.


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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jan, 2018 1:18 pm 
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Quote:
UKIP leader Henry Bolton hits out at national executive committee


The UKIP leader is preparing to face party chiefs at an emergency meeting of the NEC later.

The committee does not have the power to terminate Mr Bolton's leadership - that requires a vote of the wider party.

He has vowed to carry on as leader if there is a vote of no confidence in him.

Former leader Nigel Farage - who is reported to be considering forming a new party or a cross-party Brexit campaign if UKIP collapses - has said another leadership contest would be "difficult" for the party, which is believed to be heavily in debt (BBC News website - my emphasis)


Is there no personal or financial sacrifice this man isn't prepared to make for the greater good?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42764822

Edited - apparently, the meeting is today


Last edited by PorFavor on Sun 21 Jan, 2018 1:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jan, 2018 1:31 pm 
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David Lammy
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@DavidLammy
16m16 minutes ago

Incredible. Pls share and donate if you can - 9 Firefighters who were on the scene at Grenfell Tower in June are running the London marathon in FULL KIT (30kgs) to support The Firefighter Charity and local Grenfell charities. I am absolutely in awe of them https://www.justgiving.com/crowdfunding/a21run4grenfell

https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/9 ... 3657247744


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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jan, 2018 2:02 pm 
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Brexit will never happen, according to the only analyst to call the last general election correctly

http://www.businessinsider.fr/uk/brexit ... s-2017-12/


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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jan, 2018 2:10 pm 
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Oh come on!
Attachment:
fuzzball_red squirrel.jpg
fuzzball_red squirrel.jpg [ 29.91 KiB | Viewed 379 times ]

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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jan, 2018 2:11 pm 
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What is the point of being THAT cute?

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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jan, 2018 2:27 pm 
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tinyclanger2 wrote:
What is the point of being THAT cute?

Did you watch Hugh's Wild West, with the roosting long-tailed tits?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b ... -episode-3
or follow
https://twitter.com/JWentomologist/stat ... 5192925184

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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jan, 2018 2:32 pm 
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howsillyofme1 wrote:
Who out side the EU has full access to the EU internal market? Nobody I would venture

The EEA has exceptions from certain parts, and Switzerland most definitely does

Quote:
If you accept the rules you are in effect "in" the single market and will get all the economic benefits, if you don't you will be outside the SM and will only get reduced benefits.


I find it easier to accept that the EU Internal Market is just that an Internal Market. If we leave the EU then we are outside it but can have access to certain parts via a treaty - the Internal Market (which is actually what the treaties talk about) also comprises Euro, the CU and real free movement of people as far as I can tell.


From Borge Brende, Norway's foreign minister:
Quote:
But he rejected reports that Norway would resist the UK joining the European Free Trade Association (Efta), which provides four non-EU nations with access to the European Economic Area (EEA) single market.

“If Britain chose to go through an EAA agreement, being a full member of the single market, taking all the directives, contributing to the EU, we have to assess such an interest, he said. ”But so far, I think, your prime minister, Theresa May, has said you’re working along different lines.”


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ls-britain

I don't make a distinction between the single market inside and outside the EU, because so many of the main players involved in both, such as Macron and the Norwegian minister above, don't tend to make a distinction. Norway is a full part of the internal market, as you term it, that's the whole point, that's why their financial contributions, despite no say in the rules, is worth it.

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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jan, 2018 2:40 pm 
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AngryAsWell wrote:
Brexit will never happen, according to the only analyst to call the last general election correctly

http://www.businessinsider.fr/uk/brexit ... s-2017-12/


He makes some good points.

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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jan, 2018 2:42 pm 
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https://www.theguardian.com/law/2018/ja ... since-2010


UK courts service spending sees tenfold rise since 2010
Outsourcing and temporary staff costs rocketed over period when MoJ suffered deep cuts


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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jan, 2018 2:53 pm 
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PorFavor wrote:
Is there no personal or financial sacrifice this man isn't prepared to make for the greater good?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42764822

Edited - apparently, the meeting is today


Comment elsewhere: "Bolton says UKIP are doomed if he goes, his opponents say UKIP are doomed if he doesn't go - the likelihood is that both are right" ;)


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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jan, 2018 3:13 pm 
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With no UKIP, the Tories can betray their "little Englander" voters over Brexit safe in the knowledge they have nowhere else to go.

The article above suggesting no politician is going to be prepared to take the short to medium hit that going through with Brexit entails is already looking more likely if Ukip completely collapses.

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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jan, 2018 3:21 pm 
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Willow,

The are politicians who say things to make it simple for them......the Norwegians may say that but the EEA agreement doesn't touch on all parts of the internal market.

Theoretically the Euro and Schengen also make part of this which is why there are derogations for certain countries from the treaties

The EEA excludes agriculture and fisheries and Switzerland in excluded from some agricultural and banking for example.....

I accept that you make your own definition for the single market and I understand it but I am not in total agreement with it

Politicians say what they need to for their audience....so the Norwegian Foreign Minister may say one thing but Corbyn say another - both may be right from their point of view and there is also no definitively right answer


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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jan, 2018 3:30 pm 
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PorFavor wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
Enjoying the discussion here this morning.

It is surprising it's taken so long for the impact on business to come to the fore.

I hope we hear too from smaller, non-London based businesses too. That's probably what's really needed for the tide to turn.


What to do, though, if the tide turns and Jeremy Corbyn doesn't (I don't necessarily take the latter as a given)?

As things stand (ie we're leaving) I'd still vote Labour - but if things change, what then? I'm not convinced that, if Jeremy Corbyn sticks to what appears to be his fixed position, he wouldn't be voluntarily putting a future Labour Government in an avoidable financial danger zone whereby the changes he (and I) want to see are unaffordable (or much less affordable). Labour who want change but haven't got the money or somebody else (whoever that might be - but obviously not the Conservatives, although I can't speak for the greater electorate) who wants less change but at least would stand a better chance of achieving their aims (despite these being on a considerably smaller scale that those that I would like to see)?

Or is Jeremy Corbyn holding back because he believes that, once all the evidence is in, a dramatic change of position would be more effective than a gradual "thawing"?

Right - ramble over.

Edited to, hopefully, make it flow better

I don't claim to understand how Corbyn works any more than anyone else, but he is very wedded to the party making policy at Conference etc.

This is perhaps underestimated by observers. So, he may well feel that Labour has its policy as agreed by Conference, to respect the outcome of the Referendum and apply the six tests. Given there hasn't been a seismic shift in the situation since then, he may well feel that a change in policy awaits the next Conference.

I think we've got very used to what Laura K and the rest love so much, policy made and scrutinised in the TV studio, that we expect politicians like Corbyn to respond to every nuance of the situation and we pounce on every gaffe or discrepancy.

I'm not certain Corbyn's way of doing things is better, but I do think it's worth a try ;-)

So, to finally answer your question, I think if people want Corbyn to shift his position and turn with the tide they will need to be influencing their local CLPs, Conference delegates etc. This may well be happening. I haven't been near my branch for a while (for no particular reason).


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